Spiritual Tyranny
“Those who remain silent as spiritual tyranny grows become the foot soldiers of their own destruction.”
Justin Mangonel
Spiritual Tyranny
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Justin Mangonel said:
"You're not what you think you're, but you're what you think."
JB_Reformed Baptist
Ohh Then let me be the first to expose someJustin Mangonel said:
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18143-spiritual-experiences/#entry193358
Dear All,
Among pastors the conventional wisdom seems to be that one should “not rock the boat.” That is to say , that if you wish to be accepted by your peers (other ministers) that you should not do or say anything that makes you appear different or unorthodox. Consequently, many ministers strive to “fit in” to the point that they lose themselves and their individuality in God.
I trained to be a minister fully believing that what I was taught was actually how it should be. I was convinced that one should honor the truth of the scriptures and that I should be willing to stand my ground over doctrinal issues even if they went against the norm. However, when I neared graduation I found that, in practice, ministers rarely stood for what was true but rather opted for what was convenient. Essentially, my teachers taught one thing but did quite another.
Today, in the normative church, we have a situation where spiritual tyranny is increasing to the point that the leaders of God’s church refuse to obey His will and instead preach a convenient and acceptable gospel. People are taught that they should “fit in” and submit to those who have the rule over them because they watch for their souls. By example, people are shown that that being part of a group is more important than actually seeking the will of God for their own lives.
Doctrinal standards are dictated to those who wish to fellowship with certain groups and are enforced through coercion and shunning. People are treated as mere cogs in the machine of the church and are collated and categorized according to the needs to the system rather than shepherded as God directs.
Individuality in God is discouraged in favor of being one with the organization. People with ideas or leading outside of the norm are side lined and discouraged from pursuing their callings because they “make people feel uncomfortable.” If they make too many waves they are labeled as heretics and cast out for His names sake.
What we are seeing in our generation is the rise of the super church. Mega churches that house tens of thousands of people for services are just the beginning. We are witnessing the formation of a world religion which focuses upon being part of something at the expense of our individual leading of the Holy Spirit. The is the harlot church which seeks to dominate the beast. Pastors, thinking that they are protecting the sheep are actually aiding and abetting the spirit of antichrist that seeks to draw all men after a “as yet to be revealed” religious leader that will promise peace and safety for all.
The term antichrist does not mean opposite but rather denotes a substitution for Christ. An instead of Christ if you will. A counterfeit savior that seems like the image and likeness of God but in reality is a creation of the son of perdition. Pastors (an by extension the general leaders of the church) are setting their people up to accept a counterfeit Christ because they have been fed on make-believe Christianity that has little resemblance to the faith hat was once delivered to us through the apostles.
Many have abandoned the notion that our faith has to be tethered to reality in some meaningful way. Faith meed not have substance or evidence anymore but it has become a fantasy that bears little resemblance to any relation to actual fact or real world effect. Fanaticism has become the norm and true faith, based upon real experience with God, has become less and less valued and even discouraged.
Due to the fact that Christians are not rooted in the real they are not prepared to stand against the lying wonders that will be perform by the false prophet of the beast. Because people are willing to believe anything, simply because someone in authority says it, they stand little chance of knowing how to fight against the strong delusion that is already coming upon the world. When “make believe” passes for truth then people are left open to believe anything.
Instead to admitting that our present belief systems are fatally flawed minsters soldier on presenting a fake confidence and image of success. They must live and exude the type of results their doctrine predicts else people around them will lose faith in what they teach. Ministers, by and large, are miserable but they are trapped and cannot escape the image of success they must project in order to maintain control of their congregation and acceptance by their peers. The spiritual tyranny that they have created has come to dominate their lives too. They know they live a lie but they cannot admit it without admitting that what they teach does not work. They live in a mental prison of their own construction.
The sheep look at their ministers and believe that what they teach does work because those in leadership seem to live it. Though what they have been taught fails miserably in their own lives, nevertheless, it must be true because their pastors are examples of it. So the congregation keeps trying to apply the principles and teachings they are taught thinking that if they do it right then they will have successful Christian lives and testimonies just like their pastors.
It really is a monstrous lie.
This is why we see famous ministers fall so suddenly from grace. When reality meets with false image something has to give. Ministers who have built huge ministries fall in a single day once the truth of their lives are known. The truth is that most ministers are impostors but only a few of them get caught so dramatically. No one really wants to admit this but once you start being around Christian leadership it become apparent that there are very few true shepherds among them.
So then what is the way forward? If the leadership of the church is really as corrupt and ineffective as I have outlined what is the solution? First of all the beginning of the solution is to admit that the leadership of the church has fallen from grace. If you are a minister and you are reading this simply stop pretending and come clean to your congregation and to your peers. You have bought into and built the lie now it is time to tell the truth. This may entail loosing your position with men but it is necessary to begin the process of cleansing your soul before God.
Secondly, stop promoting doctrine that does not work and that does not make sense. You are deceived and it is only through the true washing of the water of the word through revelation from the Spirit of Truth that you will start to think straight again. Perhaps this will require a time of being set apart so that you can just be alone with God like Paul was set apart in the deserts of Damascus. Personally, it took the Holy Spirit years to begin to straighten me out doctrinally. I literally could not think straight in the scriptures because so much doctrine had been superimposed by my leadership that every time something did not make sense I would simply skip over it rather than try to make sense of it. I never let my mind wander down certain paths no matter how strongly I was goaded because my dogma would not permit me to do so. What you have been doing has obviously not been working so accept that you will have to change your position in order to find what is correct in God.
Thirdly, find out what you true calling in God is. Most ministers are in positions that God never called them to fulfill. People are trying to be pastors that should be evangelists. Ministers who should be prophets are lying that they are teachers. Many are not really called to any type of ministry at all and should just take their position in the pew with the rest of the congregation. Until you know and until it is confirmed you should seek God’s will for your life and calling in Him.
Fourthly, start to speak the truth and stop standing between God and His sheep as the interpreter of His will. I think this is one of the greatest sins that leaders commit because many times when God speaks to them they will only reveal a portion of what He said to the sheep. God speaks 100% of His will for that time and they deliver the 35% they determine that their congregation can handle. Stop being God’s filter and start being God’s mouthpiece.
Lastly, do not pretend any longer. The spirit that you have in you that pretends that everything is working fine (when it is not) is the spirit that you are transferring to your people. You are teaching them to accept a lie because they are accepting you. You are setting them up to believe the lie of the antichrist because you have not received a love of the truth. They are so used to fantasy that they will not recognize the reality of who the antichrist really is. People have to be encouraged to experience and stand for the truth of God for themselves personally so that when lying wonders abound they will know the difference.
In conclusion, your life has been built on varying degrees of sand and your people have built their lives upon that unstable ground too. If you truly love you sheep be willing to admit you are wrong and lead them to greener pastures and calmer waters. Be willing the change your position so that they may be nurtured by God Himself even if that means spending time alone with Him in the desert for a season. Let your candlestick remain firm in its place because you were willing to heed His calling and make the sacrifices necessary to be called His disciple.
Blessings,
Justin
Wormwood
Chaps
Justin,
Of course since there are no examples of what you are talking, I can only speak to the generalities you are referencing here. First, I would say, "Where in the Bible does it say we should respect our individuality?" This sounds more like a Western American view than a Biblical one. Certainly the Bible speaks of unity and submission to those in authority. Granted, this does not mean that people in authority are always right, but neither does it mean that our disagreement should foster dissention and division.
Of course since there are no examples of what you are talking, I can only speak to the generalities you are referencing here. First, I would say, "Where in the Bible does it say we should respect our individuality?" This sounds more like a Western American view than a Biblical one. Certainly the Bible speaks of unity and submission to those in authority. Granted, this does not mean that people in authority are always right, but neither does it mean that our disagreement should foster dissention and division.
Dear W,
I am, of course, speaking to the situation as it stands in the church at present. I am not talking about the first century when things were quite different. What I am talking about is honoring the voice of God in our lives more than the voice of men. I believe the idea is to be led by the Holy Spirit in everything we do. The point I am making is that the leadership of what is termed God's church, by in large does not obey the voice of God, and the sheep suffer for it. The fallacy that most people make is that they assume that, in general, the leadership of the normative church is godly. However, that is not the case. Many are hirelings that do not care for the sheep beyond what the sheep can provide for them.
Right now ministers want you to respect and obey them because of their title. I propose we respect them based on whether we hear the voice of our Father speaking through them. If we don't then they do not deserve our respect nor our allegiance. Why not have them obey the Holy Spirit as well and teach others to do so too. In this way, since the Spirit will agree with Himself we will be in agreement with them if they hear and follow the same Spirit.
What happens now days is that ministers step in between God and His sheep and dictate what God can say and do and also what the sheep can believe and do. They do this in order to maintain control. I say we should deny them this control and instead encourage them to have to listen to the Holy Spirit and do His will in order to have credibility. If God's sheep hear His voice and they are being a true mouthpiece of God then God's sheep will hear their words also.
Specifically, it is written,
"Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men."
And,
"And Elisha said, As the Lord of hosts liveth, before whom I stand, surely, were it not that I regard the presence of Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, I would not look toward thee, nor see thee."
And,
"But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up."
In conclusion, most people have little understanding of how bad things really are. Even the disaffected Jews of the first century did not truly understand the depravity of their religious leaders. They just thought they could never measure up and so quit trying. It is time that we stop giving honor to men to whom honor is not due. It is time that we stop listening to men who do not listen to God. It is time that will start being lead by our Father instead of being lead by men who do not know our Father.
Blessings,
Justin
I am, of course, speaking to the situation as it stands in the church at present. I am not talking about the first century when things were quite different. What I am talking about is honoring the voice of God in our lives more than the voice of men. I believe the idea is to be led by the Holy Spirit in everything we do. The point I am making is that the leadership of what is termed God's church, by in large does not obey the voice of God, and the sheep suffer for it. The fallacy that most people make is that they assume that, in general, the leadership of the normative church is godly. However, that is not the case. Many are hirelings that do not care for the sheep beyond what the sheep can provide for them.
Right now ministers want you to respect and obey them because of their title. I propose we respect them based on whether we hear the voice of our Father speaking through them. If we don't then they do not deserve our respect nor our allegiance. Why not have them obey the Holy Spirit as well and teach others to do so too. In this way, since the Spirit will agree with Himself we will be in agreement with them if they hear and follow the same Spirit.
What happens now days is that ministers step in between God and His sheep and dictate what God can say and do and also what the sheep can believe and do. They do this in order to maintain control. I say we should deny them this control and instead encourage them to have to listen to the Holy Spirit and do His will in order to have credibility. If God's sheep hear His voice and they are being a true mouthpiece of God then God's sheep will hear their words also.
Specifically, it is written,
"Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men."
Acts 5:28,29
And,
"And Elisha said, As the Lord of hosts liveth, before whom I stand, surely, were it not that I regard the presence of Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, I would not look toward thee, nor see thee."
2 Kings 3:14
And,
"But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up."
Daniel 3:18
We should obey God rather than man. Ministers are men and therefore the leading of the Holy Spirit takes precedence over them. When they discourage us from heeding the voice of God in our lives we should always obey our Father rather than them. Furthermore, we should only regard those whom God regards. Now days ministers want us to regard their tittle no matter what they do or not do. I say that we should only regard those who honor our Father through His Holy Spirit and if they do not do that then we owe them no honor. Lastly, we are not to bow down to idols. today's ministers, in the form of the leadership of the religious church, have fashion idols our of their doctrine and they demand that we bow down their image. They have fashioned a Christ of their own design and demand that we worship it rather than the one true God. God sends his prophets and apostles to bring correction and to relay the foundations of their doctrine right and they are thrown out because they challenge the status quo. In conclusion, most people have little understanding of how bad things really are. Even the disaffected Jews of the first century did not truly understand the depravity of their religious leaders. They just thought they could never measure up and so quit trying. It is time that we stop giving honor to men to whom honor is not due. It is time that we stop listening to men who do not listen to God. It is time that will start being lead by our Father instead of being lead by men who do not know our Father.
Blessings,
Justin
Wormwood
Chaps
Justin,
I could not disagree more. Not only are you using verses out of context, but you are making wild accusations that I think are slanderous toward the bride of Christ. This is nothing more than postmodern Western Americanism you are spouting. Titles are important and Scripture makes it very clear that we should be in submission to those in authority. Titles mean authority. They are not "man made." It is the Holy Spirit who appoints Elders in the church (Acts 20:28). Moreover, your views undermine both authority and place yourself as the chief spiritual authority that casts judgment on all others. I agree with you that elders and deacons can be in error and we have to be cautious and never follow anyone blindly. But we should also have the deepest respect for leadership in the church because they watch over our souls.
The Acts quote has to do with Jewish ruling leaders who were rejecting faith in Jesus. So unless your local church leadership is rejecting Jesus to be the Messiah, I would say this verse has NOTHING to do with your beef with your local church leaders.
The 2 Kings passage has to do with a vile king who fostered idol worship and had no regard for the LORD. So unless your local church leadership is promoting sexual immorality and the worship of Canaanite gods, then this too is out of context.
The Daniel passage has to do with a pagan king forcing worshippers of the Lord to worship his graven image. So unless these "ministers" you are attacking are telling people to reject Jesus and bow down to images they have created then you are WAY off base. Having different theological views than your minister is not the same as "idolatry" or rejecting the Holy Spirit (unless your minister is a heretic).
Moreover, the Holy Spirit OFTEN speaks through church leadership in the Bible. We do not find the Holy Spirit working predominately through individuals personal feelings and impressions. Rather, the Gospel was revealed to Apostles and leaders in the church such as elders were responsible for ensuring that proper doctrine was being taught. When missionaries were sent out, the Holy Spirit spoke to the leaders of the church (Acts 13). This is not to say that the Holy Spirit CANT speak to an individual. However, it is to say that the biblical precedent shows that the Spirit moves predominately through his revealed word and church leaders. This whole mindset you have of everything and everyone being subject to your own personal feelings and impressions that you view to be the Spirit is dangerous as is the freedom you feel to accuse church leaders across the world.
I could not disagree more. Not only are you using verses out of context, but you are making wild accusations that I think are slanderous toward the bride of Christ. This is nothing more than postmodern Western Americanism you are spouting. Titles are important and Scripture makes it very clear that we should be in submission to those in authority. Titles mean authority. They are not "man made." It is the Holy Spirit who appoints Elders in the church (Acts 20:28). Moreover, your views undermine both authority and place yourself as the chief spiritual authority that casts judgment on all others. I agree with you that elders and deacons can be in error and we have to be cautious and never follow anyone blindly. But we should also have the deepest respect for leadership in the church because they watch over our souls.
The Acts quote has to do with Jewish ruling leaders who were rejecting faith in Jesus. So unless your local church leadership is rejecting Jesus to be the Messiah, I would say this verse has NOTHING to do with your beef with your local church leaders.
The 2 Kings passage has to do with a vile king who fostered idol worship and had no regard for the LORD. So unless your local church leadership is promoting sexual immorality and the worship of Canaanite gods, then this too is out of context.
The Daniel passage has to do with a pagan king forcing worshippers of the Lord to worship his graven image. So unless these "ministers" you are attacking are telling people to reject Jesus and bow down to images they have created then you are WAY off base. Having different theological views than your minister is not the same as "idolatry" or rejecting the Holy Spirit (unless your minister is a heretic).
Moreover, the Holy Spirit OFTEN speaks through church leadership in the Bible. We do not find the Holy Spirit working predominately through individuals personal feelings and impressions. Rather, the Gospel was revealed to Apostles and leaders in the church such as elders were responsible for ensuring that proper doctrine was being taught. When missionaries were sent out, the Holy Spirit spoke to the leaders of the church (Acts 13). This is not to say that the Holy Spirit CANT speak to an individual. However, it is to say that the biblical precedent shows that the Spirit moves predominately through his revealed word and church leaders. This whole mindset you have of everything and everyone being subject to your own personal feelings and impressions that you view to be the Spirit is dangerous as is the freedom you feel to accuse church leaders across the world.
Dear W,
You falacy is, again, thinking that those who lead God's church are godly. While what you say does apply if we had a similar situation as the first century church did as far as the quality of leadership we do not. I do not know why you don't just admit the obvious.
I was also quite plain in the way I was applying those scriptures to today's ministers. The point of the first scripture is that those who are lead by the Holy Spirit must obey Him rather than the religious leaders of the day. This is a perfect example of what I am talking about.
Secondly, the scripture I quoted speaks to men of not not having to respect someone just because they have a title. Again a perfect example of what I was speaking too.
Thirdly, the example I gave fits again because the people of God are being force by those who do not know God to bow down to a image of their own construction...the various flavors of theology that various denominations promote.
Do you honestly think I do not understand what these scriptures were originally talking about? Of course I do but it is the core principle of these scriptures that I am saying applies to ministers of our generation.
Really, do you think that the current leadership of the church, taken as a whole, is even remotely acting like the bride of Christ? Furthermore, do you believe that these leaders are going to change into that bride or will the bride come out from among them and be separate? God did not leave His chosen in Egypt to reform it and I do not believe that God will leave His bride in the current church system to reform it either.
The Spirit does not move predominantly through church leaders...else the nation of Israel would have accepted their messiah. The Holy Spirit move predominantly through men and women who actually listen to and obey His voice. If you have a church leadership that will listen and obey His voice then He will move through them as He did with the apostles. However, if you have a leadership that is so reprobate that they outwardly appear holy but inwardly are ravenous wolves He will not because He cannot.
You said,
"This whole mindset you have of everything and everyone being subject to your own personal feelings and impressions that you view to be the Spirit is dangerous as is the freedom you feel to accuse church leaders across the world."
I am for people be lead by the Holy Spirit...not, as you say, personal feelings and impressions....there is a big difference. Perhaps you are not used to hearing God's voice and so what I talk about does not make sense to you. However, this is where the elect are heading.
Also, you warning of danger is exactly the sort of fear-speak that pastors use across the world to keep their sheep fearful and docile. We should not fear the Holy Spirit.
Blessings,
Justin
You falacy is, again, thinking that those who lead God's church are godly. While what you say does apply if we had a similar situation as the first century church did as far as the quality of leadership we do not. I do not know why you don't just admit the obvious.
I was also quite plain in the way I was applying those scriptures to today's ministers. The point of the first scripture is that those who are lead by the Holy Spirit must obey Him rather than the religious leaders of the day. This is a perfect example of what I am talking about.
Secondly, the scripture I quoted speaks to men of not not having to respect someone just because they have a title. Again a perfect example of what I was speaking too.
Thirdly, the example I gave fits again because the people of God are being force by those who do not know God to bow down to a image of their own construction...the various flavors of theology that various denominations promote.
Do you honestly think I do not understand what these scriptures were originally talking about? Of course I do but it is the core principle of these scriptures that I am saying applies to ministers of our generation.
Really, do you think that the current leadership of the church, taken as a whole, is even remotely acting like the bride of Christ? Furthermore, do you believe that these leaders are going to change into that bride or will the bride come out from among them and be separate? God did not leave His chosen in Egypt to reform it and I do not believe that God will leave His bride in the current church system to reform it either.
The Spirit does not move predominantly through church leaders...else the nation of Israel would have accepted their messiah. The Holy Spirit move predominantly through men and women who actually listen to and obey His voice. If you have a church leadership that will listen and obey His voice then He will move through them as He did with the apostles. However, if you have a leadership that is so reprobate that they outwardly appear holy but inwardly are ravenous wolves He will not because He cannot.
You said,
"This whole mindset you have of everything and everyone being subject to your own personal feelings and impressions that you view to be the Spirit is dangerous as is the freedom you feel to accuse church leaders across the world."
I am for people be lead by the Holy Spirit...not, as you say, personal feelings and impressions....there is a big difference. Perhaps you are not used to hearing God's voice and so what I talk about does not make sense to you. However, this is where the elect are heading.
Also, you warning of danger is exactly the sort of fear-speak that pastors use across the world to keep their sheep fearful and docile. We should not fear the Holy Spirit.
Blessings,
Justin
Wormwood
Chaps
Justin,
I am a church leader, and so I do take offense at your blanket condemnations. Clearly you are a divisive person who likes to promote controversy. Not exactly a fruit of the Spirit. So whatever spirit you feel you are listening to, I assure you it is not the Holy Spirit.
I was also quite plain in the way I was applying those scriptures to today's ministers. The point of the first scripture is that those who are lead by the Holy Spirit must obey Him rather than the religious leaders of the day. This is a perfect example of what I am talking about.
No, actually it is not. These "spiritual leaders" were not "Church leaders." They were leaders who were rejecting the Church and Jesus Christ. Big difference. Why don't you give an example of some of the blanket evils that these church leaders are guilty of that warrants this continual spewing of venom. I understand how you think you are using these verses to make a point, but you are way off base. These verses are connected with very specific evils that God was confronting by non-believers. This is not about your personal beef with believers. I can also list a host of verses that say we should respect our leaders. However, the point is, your "points" are embedded in contexts that do not support your claims.
The Spirit does not move predominantly through church leaders...else the nation of Israel would have accepted their messiah.
Um, the Jewish ruling council did not consist of "church leaders."
I am for people be lead by the Holy Spirit...not, as you say, personal feelings and impressions....there is a big difference. Perhaps you are not used to hearing God's voice and so what I talk about does not make sense to you. However, this is where the elect are heading.
This is my point exactly. I think it is sad that you can claim all the church leaders of the world to be evil, meanwhile, YOU speak as the very voice of God. This sounds like you want a platform and have not been given it by those in authority. The Bible warns us about people who are puffed up and think too highly of themselves than they ought. I sense no spirit of humility or grace in you. I have heard nothing from you but critique, anger, accusation and self-aggrandizement. Nothing in your comments reflect any of the characteristics of the Spirit in the Scriptures. Even Paul apologized for yelling at an unbelieving and abusive High Priest. Yet you show not the slightest grace or concern in attacking those who serve his Bride. Shame on you.
I am a church leader, and so I do take offense at your blanket condemnations. Clearly you are a divisive person who likes to promote controversy. Not exactly a fruit of the Spirit. So whatever spirit you feel you are listening to, I assure you it is not the Holy Spirit.
I was also quite plain in the way I was applying those scriptures to today's ministers. The point of the first scripture is that those who are lead by the Holy Spirit must obey Him rather than the religious leaders of the day. This is a perfect example of what I am talking about.
No, actually it is not. These "spiritual leaders" were not "Church leaders." They were leaders who were rejecting the Church and Jesus Christ. Big difference. Why don't you give an example of some of the blanket evils that these church leaders are guilty of that warrants this continual spewing of venom. I understand how you think you are using these verses to make a point, but you are way off base. These verses are connected with very specific evils that God was confronting by non-believers. This is not about your personal beef with believers. I can also list a host of verses that say we should respect our leaders. However, the point is, your "points" are embedded in contexts that do not support your claims.
The Spirit does not move predominantly through church leaders...else the nation of Israel would have accepted their messiah.
Um, the Jewish ruling council did not consist of "church leaders."
I am for people be lead by the Holy Spirit...not, as you say, personal feelings and impressions....there is a big difference. Perhaps you are not used to hearing God's voice and so what I talk about does not make sense to you. However, this is where the elect are heading.
This is my point exactly. I think it is sad that you can claim all the church leaders of the world to be evil, meanwhile, YOU speak as the very voice of God. This sounds like you want a platform and have not been given it by those in authority. The Bible warns us about people who are puffed up and think too highly of themselves than they ought. I sense no spirit of humility or grace in you. I have heard nothing from you but critique, anger, accusation and self-aggrandizement. Nothing in your comments reflect any of the characteristics of the Spirit in the Scriptures. Even Paul apologized for yelling at an unbelieving and abusive High Priest. Yet you show not the slightest grace or concern in attacking those who serve his Bride. Shame on you.
Truth is authority. Those who speak truth have authority.Wormwood said:
But there remained two [of the] men in the camp, the name of the one [was] Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they [were] of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp. And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp. And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, [one] of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them. And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, [and] that the LORD would put his spirit upon them! Numbers 11:26-29
Wormwood
Chaps
"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,” (Romans 13:1–3, ESV)
“Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.” (1 Peter 2:13–14, ESV)
“Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.” (Hebrews 13:17, ESV)
“And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,” (Ephesians 4:11–12, ESV)
“We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.” (1 John 4:6, ESV)
“For an overseer, as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,” (Titus 1:7, ESV)
“Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.” (Titus 2:15, ESV)
“And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.” (Acts 15:2, ESV)
“Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.” (1 Corinthians 14:36–38, ESV)
No one is saying that truth is insignificant when it comes to issues of authority. However, there are all kinds of authority in the world, and often we need to submit to those authorities. We do not submit to authority only when we agree with them. This is not true submission. Certainly if someone is asking us to reject God's authority then we refuse to do so. But enough with the word games. There are titles and their are authorities. We must respect these titles and authorities because to fail to do so is to resist God's own established order. We can disagree with an authority without being insubordinate. Wives are to submit to their husbands. Does this mean they only submit to a husbands authority when they agree with him? Only when they think what he is saying is "true"? A ridiculous notion. Certainly a wife should never resist God's authority in her life on the command of her husband. That is obvious. But what we are talking about is authorities both in government, church and the home. Being respectful and submissive to authorities so long as they are not asking you to turn away from God or reject the truth is good and pleasing to God.
“For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.” (1 Peter 3:5–6, ESV)
“Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.” (1 Peter 2:13–14, ESV)
“Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.” (Hebrews 13:17, ESV)
“And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,” (Ephesians 4:11–12, ESV)
“We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.” (1 John 4:6, ESV)
“For an overseer, as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,” (Titus 1:7, ESV)
“Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.” (Titus 2:15, ESV)
“And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.” (Acts 15:2, ESV)
“Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.” (1 Corinthians 14:36–38, ESV)
No one is saying that truth is insignificant when it comes to issues of authority. However, there are all kinds of authority in the world, and often we need to submit to those authorities. We do not submit to authority only when we agree with them. This is not true submission. Certainly if someone is asking us to reject God's authority then we refuse to do so. But enough with the word games. There are titles and their are authorities. We must respect these titles and authorities because to fail to do so is to resist God's own established order. We can disagree with an authority without being insubordinate. Wives are to submit to their husbands. Does this mean they only submit to a husbands authority when they agree with him? Only when they think what he is saying is "true"? A ridiculous notion. Certainly a wife should never resist God's authority in her life on the command of her husband. That is obvious. But what we are talking about is authorities both in government, church and the home. Being respectful and submissive to authorities so long as they are not asking you to turn away from God or reject the truth is good and pleasing to God.
“For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.” (1 Peter 3:5–6, ESV)
Dear W,
Well, then you may be exactly the type of person I am speaking about. You come from the perspective of leading God's people and use exactly the words that I have spoken about to support your authority and position.
What I object to is when a leader says the things you do without admitting that God's sheep owe no respect to those who do not follow the voice of God. You have listed scriptures that do apply only if those who seek to lead us are in submission to God but unfortunately most pastors are not.
I am surprised that you have not "come clean" on the point of how messed up the leadership of the church is being that you move among them. Do you cover their sins because you partake of the same? Many pastors are mere shells of righteousness with nothing righteous inside. They are burnt out by legalism which they cannot live but yet they still teach their flock to do so. It is not proper to protect the ministry and the ministers at all cost. I dislike the cloak of secrecy minister hide behind. They know the score but they never tell the sheep the score for fear of losing control. To be fair they would not say it like that though...they would say, "I do not want to let the sheep down or damage their souls...so we must keep this from them."
The mantra of "leaders" is submission. They use this as a catch all for getting people to obey them whatever they do, whatever they say, and whatever they believe. Their motto is "when in doubt, and even if there is no doubt, submit to me." Why should anyone submit to you or anyone else if what they say or do goes against what God is saying to them? Are you higher than God or do you fancy that you are the "voice" of God? Just because you have gathered a few people together does that mean that you now have more authority over them than God? Are you a servant or a usurper? If you say you are the voice of God and you do not speak with the voice of my Father why should I or anyone else follow you? Do you emulate Christ? What if the Christ you show forth is merely a image created by your own mind and through compromise? I cannot not and will not follow an idol and neither should anyone else.
Why not allow God's sheep to be led by His Spirit without you meddling in that relationship. If you speak with the voice of our Father then we can follow you for you follow Him. If you do not we will not hear you. Why not let that be the standard by with you operate? Is not the Holy Spirit able to lead His people? And furthermore did not God promise to remove those who harmed His people?
Many ministers are mere hirelings that care little for the sheep beyond what they provide for them. Are you honestly suggesting that the sheep submit to such people because you bandy a few scriptures about? The contract is that the sheep follow you because you follow God. If you do not follow God then they do not follow you...simple as that. Submission should flow naturally from that type of relationship and neither you nor anyone else should have to prop up their authority with such scriptures. If you do then it means that you have lost your legitimate authority and you are demanding the sheep follow you rather than letting them do so because of their own free will. If you do not submit to the voice of God (an remember that may be vastly different than your doctrine) then none of those scriptures apply to you and therefore they cannot be used to make the sheep follow you.
I hate the way that many ministers starve the sheep. They do not feed them with fresh manna but rather simply shovel the regurgitated dogma of centuries past and try to pass of that dust as the word of God for today. If they hear the voice of God for today they often times fear to speak it plainly. They regulate what God can say through them to the people because they do not trust that God knows what His people needs. Thus the sheep are weak. These are mean people who are stingy with the true word of our Father. They pity themselves more than they pity the sheep. As I said, hirelings.
Actually, what I say is meant to give offense to those whom offense is due. People to whom what I say applies usually do take offense simply because they do not wish to deal with the reality of the situation. You are a brother or sister in Christ and as such it is proper to admonish you. My admonishment is to stop pretending and start submitting to God so that you can rightly use the scriptures you quoted. The leadership of the normative church is the problem and not matter how offended they might become they need to be removed if they will not stop standing between Christ and his people.
The problem is, true men of God will consider what I say and apply the parts that are true to themselves. The ones who least need these words are the ones that will most take them to heart. The ones who really need to hear what I say will reject everything and take in nothing for their pride and arrogance will shield them from these truths.
People want to say, "who are you to stand up and say such things to us?" Meaning, we are very big people with much honor and authority and who do you think you are to castigate us? What they forget is that the Holy Spirit dwells in everyone who has asked Him to come and indwell them. The Spirit in us speaks through us and that authority is greater than any false authority that the leadership feels they are entitled too.
You cannot hold onto to God's sheep much longer. God is calling His people to come out from among you and be separate.
Blessings,
Justin
Well, then you may be exactly the type of person I am speaking about. You come from the perspective of leading God's people and use exactly the words that I have spoken about to support your authority and position.
What I object to is when a leader says the things you do without admitting that God's sheep owe no respect to those who do not follow the voice of God. You have listed scriptures that do apply only if those who seek to lead us are in submission to God but unfortunately most pastors are not.
I am surprised that you have not "come clean" on the point of how messed up the leadership of the church is being that you move among them. Do you cover their sins because you partake of the same? Many pastors are mere shells of righteousness with nothing righteous inside. They are burnt out by legalism which they cannot live but yet they still teach their flock to do so. It is not proper to protect the ministry and the ministers at all cost. I dislike the cloak of secrecy minister hide behind. They know the score but they never tell the sheep the score for fear of losing control. To be fair they would not say it like that though...they would say, "I do not want to let the sheep down or damage their souls...so we must keep this from them."
The mantra of "leaders" is submission. They use this as a catch all for getting people to obey them whatever they do, whatever they say, and whatever they believe. Their motto is "when in doubt, and even if there is no doubt, submit to me." Why should anyone submit to you or anyone else if what they say or do goes against what God is saying to them? Are you higher than God or do you fancy that you are the "voice" of God? Just because you have gathered a few people together does that mean that you now have more authority over them than God? Are you a servant or a usurper? If you say you are the voice of God and you do not speak with the voice of my Father why should I or anyone else follow you? Do you emulate Christ? What if the Christ you show forth is merely a image created by your own mind and through compromise? I cannot not and will not follow an idol and neither should anyone else.
Why not allow God's sheep to be led by His Spirit without you meddling in that relationship. If you speak with the voice of our Father then we can follow you for you follow Him. If you do not we will not hear you. Why not let that be the standard by with you operate? Is not the Holy Spirit able to lead His people? And furthermore did not God promise to remove those who harmed His people?
Many ministers are mere hirelings that care little for the sheep beyond what they provide for them. Are you honestly suggesting that the sheep submit to such people because you bandy a few scriptures about? The contract is that the sheep follow you because you follow God. If you do not follow God then they do not follow you...simple as that. Submission should flow naturally from that type of relationship and neither you nor anyone else should have to prop up their authority with such scriptures. If you do then it means that you have lost your legitimate authority and you are demanding the sheep follow you rather than letting them do so because of their own free will. If you do not submit to the voice of God (an remember that may be vastly different than your doctrine) then none of those scriptures apply to you and therefore they cannot be used to make the sheep follow you.
I hate the way that many ministers starve the sheep. They do not feed them with fresh manna but rather simply shovel the regurgitated dogma of centuries past and try to pass of that dust as the word of God for today. If they hear the voice of God for today they often times fear to speak it plainly. They regulate what God can say through them to the people because they do not trust that God knows what His people needs. Thus the sheep are weak. These are mean people who are stingy with the true word of our Father. They pity themselves more than they pity the sheep. As I said, hirelings.
Actually, what I say is meant to give offense to those whom offense is due. People to whom what I say applies usually do take offense simply because they do not wish to deal with the reality of the situation. You are a brother or sister in Christ and as such it is proper to admonish you. My admonishment is to stop pretending and start submitting to God so that you can rightly use the scriptures you quoted. The leadership of the normative church is the problem and not matter how offended they might become they need to be removed if they will not stop standing between Christ and his people.
The problem is, true men of God will consider what I say and apply the parts that are true to themselves. The ones who least need these words are the ones that will most take them to heart. The ones who really need to hear what I say will reject everything and take in nothing for their pride and arrogance will shield them from these truths.
People want to say, "who are you to stand up and say such things to us?" Meaning, we are very big people with much honor and authority and who do you think you are to castigate us? What they forget is that the Holy Spirit dwells in everyone who has asked Him to come and indwell them. The Spirit in us speaks through us and that authority is greater than any false authority that the leadership feels they are entitled too.
You cannot hold onto to God's sheep much longer. God is calling His people to come out from among you and be separate.
Blessings,
Justin
Wormwood
Chaps
If it is true of earthly authority, how much more of those appointed to be leaders of Christ's church? Read the verses again. I provided many examples of calls to submit and honor church leadership.ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Justin,
Your wild ranting and accusations do not deserve a response. You know nothing about me, my love for Christ or his people. You say people should submit to Gods voice, and then claim you alone are his mouthpiece. how convenient. You should be ashamed of yourself. I do not give account to you but The Lord who has purchased me and other ministers with his own precious blood. Take your accusations and condemnations elsewhere.
Dear Wormwood,
There is no response from you because there can be not response except agreement. You wish to say that people should submit to leadership regardless. That is what I speak against because when that is accepted by the sheep then ministers have no accountability and tend to abuse them. Saying that they have accountability among their peers is like asking wolves to police each other among a flock of sheep.
I seems you think you need not give an account to anyone but God because you say that people should submit to your office regardless. That is ridiculous...if you wish people to submit to your office make sure you submit to God first and allow them to choose to follow you without brow beating them with scripture to get them to do it. In my essay I am not addressing you specifically but rather the church leadership in general and the abuses of assumed authority that they commit daily. However, if the shoe fits you are more than welcomed to wear it.
I do not expect much of a response from those who truly need to consider what I say because their hearts are already hardened because they refuse to allow God access to His own people. However, the God that we serve will remove His sheep from the hirelings of this world and give them true shepherds according to His own heart.
Blessings,
Justin
There is no response from you because there can be not response except agreement. You wish to say that people should submit to leadership regardless. That is what I speak against because when that is accepted by the sheep then ministers have no accountability and tend to abuse them. Saying that they have accountability among their peers is like asking wolves to police each other among a flock of sheep.
I seems you think you need not give an account to anyone but God because you say that people should submit to your office regardless. That is ridiculous...if you wish people to submit to your office make sure you submit to God first and allow them to choose to follow you without brow beating them with scripture to get them to do it. In my essay I am not addressing you specifically but rather the church leadership in general and the abuses of assumed authority that they commit daily. However, if the shoe fits you are more than welcomed to wear it.
I do not expect much of a response from those who truly need to consider what I say because their hearts are already hardened because they refuse to allow God access to His own people. However, the God that we serve will remove His sheep from the hirelings of this world and give them true shepherds according to His own heart.
Blessings,
Justin
And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. For whether [is] greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? [is] not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth. Luke 22:25-27Wormwood said:
If I speak a word to you that is true, and you choose to disbelieve, or ignore, it, do you think GOD is going to honor your self-imagined authority over the authority of my word?
Wormwood
Chaps
I don't think either one of you read what I write. It seems you are too busy jumping on soap boxes to engage in dialogue. As I said previously...
I am also saying that titles are significant. The Kingdom of God is not a democracy and neither is it anarchist as Justin would like to imagine. In Justin's ecclesiology, the only authority in the world is his own perception (which of course is Gods). This is mere postmodern individualism and nothing even close to biblical Christianity. Just because ministers lead through service does not mean they do not and should not have respect or carry authority. There is a reason James says the elders of the church should be called to pray for the sick....think about it.
Wormwood said:
No one is saying we should follow a title or leader when they reject the truth. I am saying that accusing ministers and claiming they are "hirelings" who don't hear the voice of God is vicious and unbecoming of a Christian. Justin is saying he hears Gods voice and ministers follow old dry doctrines. He is twisting scripture to make ministers look like idolatrous kings and religious leaders who reject the messiah so he can make himself sound like a messianic martyr. You shouldn't defend him in this crusade CRFTD.Wormwood said:
I am also saying that titles are significant. The Kingdom of God is not a democracy and neither is it anarchist as Justin would like to imagine. In Justin's ecclesiology, the only authority in the world is his own perception (which of course is Gods). This is mere postmodern individualism and nothing even close to biblical Christianity. Just because ministers lead through service does not mean they do not and should not have respect or carry authority. There is a reason James says the elders of the church should be called to pray for the sick....think about it.
Many of them are hirelings who don't hear the voice of GOD. Just because they go to divinity school and get an education, then hang a diploma on their wall doesn't necessarily mean they're anointed or worthy of respect. Quite the contrary. Many of them view religious leadership as an occupation, and make merchandise of the flock of GOD.Wormwood said:
Titles are only significant to carnal men.
You keep talking about the authority church leaders have. Why don't you give us some specific examples of what this actually means? You mentioned praying for the sick. I don't have a problem with that. What else?
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