Split from: "What Did Jesus Actually Accomplish On The Cross?

[Forsakenone]

Madad answered most of this, but in regard to Romans 3:7, I believe your taking one verse out of context to validate a point.. In verse 7 Paul is quoting a hypothetical argument that someone might use in order to justify lying: having quoted this argument he then refutes it. This sets the context of Paul's rhetorical question in verse 7, where he hypothetically uses himself in the first person. Paul refutes the argument from others that doing bad, (i.e. lying) is okay if it advances the kingdom. In this particular case, the niv is clearer;
"Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?”Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!" (Romans 3:7-8 NIV)

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Rom 2:16

If one is going to rewrite to the scriptures, then one should recall Proverbs 30:6 "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."

So in regards to Romans 3:7, "For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?"

So did Paul lie?

8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

So where is it written that there is none righteous, no, not one? Was Paul accurately representing the Gospel?

[5] There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. [6] And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. Luke 1:5-6

So then was Jesus being deceptive when it is written in Matthew 9:12-13, [12] But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. [13] But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Or in John 9:1-3 wherein it is written, [1] And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. [2] And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? [3] Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

​

[7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
[8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:7-8

 

[Madad21]

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[Dan57]

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Rom 2:16

If one is going to rewrite to the scriptures, then one should recall Proverbs 30:6 "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."

So in regards to Romans 3:7, "For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?"

So did Paul lie?

8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

So where is it written that there is none righteous, no, not one? Was Paul accurately representing the Gospel?

[5] There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. [6] And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. Luke 1:5-6

So then was Jesus being deceptive when it is written in Matthew 9:12-13, [12] But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. [13] But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Or in John 9:1-3 wherein it is written, [1] And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. [2] And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? [3] Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

​

[7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
[8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:7-8

As Madad mentioned, its written in several places; "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" (Isaiah 64:6). So no, Paul did not lie, nor did he contradict anything Christ taught. While there are many walking in righteousness, all have sinned. Your pulling random verses out of context. In John 9;1-3 for example, Jesus was asked who's sin caused the man's blindness, his explanation was that neither the mans or his parents sins were responsible for his blindness. If we were all righteous, the crucifixion was an exercise in futility. We are only made righteous because our sins are washed by the cross, and by our faith in him. Paul was a chosen apostle called by Christ, so if Paul mislead others, Jesus screwed-up? I don't think so.

 

[Madad21]

As Madad mentioned, its written in several places; "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" (Isaiah 64:6). So no, Paul did not lie, nor did he contradict anything Christ taught. While there are many walking in righteousness, all have sinned. Your pulling random verses out of context. In John 9;1-3 for example, Jesus was asked who's sin caused the man's blindness, his explanation was that neither the mans or his parents sins were responsible for his blindness. If we were all righteous, the crucifixion was an exercise in futility. We are only made righteous because our sins are washed by the cross, and by our faith in him. Paul was a chosen apostle called by Christ, so if Paul mislead others, Jesus screwed-up? I don't think so.

Nail on the head bro, nice

also Foresakenone starts his argument by trying to catch Paul out in his word quoting Romans 2:16

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Rom 2:16

I know such finicky details like context and true meaning can seem silly to some, but just for giggles...

In the finicky silly context of Romans 12:2, we see Paul telling those who still think that by the old law they have the right to pass righteous judgement on others that their own judgment will come at a time where they will be judged by the gospel “he” preaches, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul uses the words “my gospel” referring to the gospel he preaches not the old law gospel they practice by which they condemn even themselves. (pretty much everything you said Dan)

and then forsakenone throws in this little gem to convict Paul in his words

If one is going to rewrite to the scriptures, then one should recall Proverbs 30:6 "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."

Whoopsy!

Maybe context is important after all.

 

[Forsakenone]

As Madad mentioned, its written in several places; "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" (Isaiah 64:6). So no, Paul did not lie, nor did he contradict anything Christ taught. While there are many walking in righteousness, all have sinned. Your pulling random verses out of context. In John 9;1-3 for example, Jesus was asked who's sin caused the man's blindness, his explanation was that neither the mans or his parents sins were responsible for his blindness. If we were all righteous, the crucifixion was an exercise in futility. We are only made righteous because our sins are washed by the cross, and by our faith in him. Paul was a chosen apostle called by Christ, so if Paul mislead others, Jesus screwed-up? I don't think so.

I was awaiting your response to question regarding where it was written what Paul wrote in Roman 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" One might consider that it implied it was written in the OT.

• And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. Gen 7:1

• And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. Job 2:3

• Rejoice in the LORD, ye righteous; and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.Ps 97:12

• By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.Heb 11:4 {If not mistaken was penned by Paul himself}

• O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.John 17:25

It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. John 8:17-18

You state that "We are only made righteous because our sins are washed by the cross," yet in Luke 1:6 it is written, "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless." I don't consider this discussion a matter of I'm wrong, you're right, or vice versa or any form thereof, but rather looking at the topic from the different perspectives which others share in their comments. Yet I do see that more people such as the other person place emphasis on what Paul or others wrote rather than what is specifically quoted being said by Jesus.

 

[Madad21]

I was awaiting your response to question regarding where it was written what Paul wrote in Roman 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" One might consider that it implied it was written in the OT.

• And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. Gen 7:1

• And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. Job 2:3

• Rejoice in the LORD, ye righteous; and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.Ps 97:12

• By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.Heb 11:4

• O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.John 17:25

It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. John 8:17-18

You state that "We are only made righteous because our sins are washed by the cross," yet in Luke 1:6 it is written, "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

Why are you bothering Dan with what is obvious?
Try reading all of Romans 3 in its context and then ask yourself those questions because you seem to be the only one who is confused on the subject.
You of all people have the cheek to call anyone out on misrepresenting Scripture.

Who is Paul's audience and what is he talking about and why?
These (hypothetical) Jews think they have salvation because they believe they have the Law.
All these people you mention in the OT feared God whereas many didn't, because though the other Jews had the law they did not think it worthy to retain the knowledge. Just like its not through the act of circumcision that someone is made clean, but circumcision of the heart, having the Law does not make a man righteous.
You mince Pauls words like you butcher the rest of Scripture and have done for a long time now, when are you going to accept wisdom instead of fighting against it with flimsy baseless nonsense.? Paul addresses such as the nature of Jews who claim righteousness by the Law, the same Law that condemns them.

No One Is Righteous
Romans 3:9-20
What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.” [SIZE=11pt](Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Ecc 7:20)[/SIZE]

“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

All these people you pick out in the OT all showed fear in the Lord and it was accredited to them as righteousness. Paul uses OT scripture against those who claim righteousness by the Law without fear of God, these people only accept the Torah, so Paul illustrate their folly by the Torah truth.

 

[Forsakenone]

Simply asked a question regarding where it was written what Paul wrote in Roman 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

Try reading all of Romans 3 in its context and then ask yourself those questions because you seem to be the only one who is confused on the subject.

Confused? Was asking Dan, no offense, but I am not sure you even comprehend that just because one believes something does not equate to having faith, but is a measure thereof.

You of all people have the cheek to call anyone out on misrepresenting Scripture.

Please feel free to point out any scripture I have misrepresented, especially where I called anyone out, yet simply because a person doesn't' hold the same interpretation than yours doesn't mean that they are misrepresenting the scriptures, and to make such an accusation is merely your own conscience convicting you of your own errors.

Paul addresses such as the nature of Jews who claim righteousness by the Law, the same Law that condemns them.

So are you saved by grace or you saved by hope?

 

[Madad21]

Simply asked a question regarding where it was written what Paul wrote in Roman 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

"sssssssimply?"

Well I provided at least 3 places where it is written [SIZE=11pt](Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Ecc 7:20) [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] what was wrong with these not word for word enough for you?[/SIZE]

Confused? Was asking Dan, no offense, but I am not sure you even comprehend that just because one believes something does not equate to having faith, but is a measure thereof.

I can answer any question in any thread I like.
Dan is quite capable of talking to you when hes good and ready, hes not looking for my help and neither have I offered it, we just happen to be on the same page.

so were you asking Dan because your having trouble with your faith and you sincerely wanted him to help you believe, or is it more like you were trying to chip away at Dans beliefs because you have trouble with your own.

The only thing I cant comprehend my friend is this bogus answer.

Please feel free to point out any scripture I have misrepresented, especially where I called anyone out,

No your to clever to do that, I have read your posts and have dealt with you before and I know full well the game you think your good at.
You are careful to make it noting more than an innocent question like "Did God really say that you must not eat from any tree from the garden?" (Gen 3:1)
just as an example.

As for who you are calling out, is it not Pauls words you are calling in to question? "Yet I do see that more people such as the other person place emphasis on what Paul or others wrote rather than what is specifically quoted being said by Jesus. "

So are you "implying" that what Paul wrote could (by your mere innocent pondering), run somewhat contrary to what Jesus said?

If so can you please provide one decent example where you suppose that both the context and application of any of Jesus' teachings have been made corrupt or misleading in any way by what Paul has taught.

, yet simply because a person doesn't' hold the same interpretation than yours doesn't mean that they are misrepresenting the scriptures, and to make such an accusation is merely your own conscience convicting you of your own errors.

More bogus rhetoric.
If you call reading and understanding scripture in its proper and obvious context "the same interpretation as mine" then yes they are misinterpreting Scripture. In fact people who do that misinterpret Scripture so badly that they can make any Scripture fit any crooked doctrine.

And that whole "my conscience convicting me of my own errors" rubbish is a typical cop out for those who throw punches blindly in the dark, you got nothing and you know it. so now your going to try a lame Jedi mind trick.

So are you saved by grace or you saved by hope?

What has that got to do with the topic?
You still have no idea what Paul is talking about in his teaching do you.

.

 

[Dan57]

I was awaiting your response to question regarding where it was written what Paul wrote in Roman 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" One might consider that it implied it was written in the OT.

You state that "We are only made righteous because our sins are washed by the cross," yet in Luke 1:6 it is written, "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless." I don't consider this discussion a matter of I'm wrong, you're right, or vice versa or any form thereof, but rather looking at the topic from the different perspectives which others share in their comments. Yet I do see that more people such as the other person place emphasis on what Paul or others wrote rather than what is specifically quoted being said by Jesus.

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" (Romans 3:10), Paul quoted; "There is none that doeth good, no, not one" (Psalms 14:3).

Righteousness proceeds from God, because He alone is righteous. When we receive His righteousness, we are righteous. "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness" (Matthew 5:6). But our righteous acts aren't on the level of Christ (Isaiah 64;6), who was perfect in all God's ways. Righteous people are those who walk in God's ways and keep His word (law), but we aren't inherently righteous, we are made that way through our faith in Christ.

Paul reiterated what Jesus taught when he wrote; "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain" (Galatians 2:21). I understand this to mean that our salvation is not a result of us being good (righteous) or keeping all the law, but through the sacrifice Christ; "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

So there's nothing complicated about it, while we can be righteous and we can keep the law, we still aren't perfect. That's not to say that the law is void, Jesus didn't change the law (Matthew 5:18), he asked us to keep his commandments (John 14:15). Nor does it imply that our righteous acts don't matter; "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints" (Revelation 19;8). We simply demonstrate our faith by our righteous deeds and obedience, otherwise we are hypocrites; "Faith without works is dead" (James 2;26). So Jesus and Paul both taught the same message; "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life" (John 3:36)

 

[JimParker]

Excellent question!
Unfortunately, the accomplishment is largely obscured save for those who use their discernment and obey the scriptures that commands us to test all things and hold to that which is good or true.
Cultists, in composing what became known as the closed canon, i.e. the last and only time God shall speak to humanity, insured the message withered in the shadow of the majority of letters, or epistles, that were written by a Pharisee Roman, who was an agent of Satan himself. We know this because all of Paul's letters, because he is just Paul, he is not a true apostle since the church at Ephasis, the one church charged with testing those who professed themselves as apostles, found him to not be qualified of the title. And Jesus in Revelation 2 reminded us of that when he spoke to John.

Paul''s letters commanded the churches he created in his image and likeness. "Follow me....as I follow Christ." The Christ he never knew. The Christ that warned his actual Disciples about Paul's coming after he ascended to the father. If anyone come to them and claim here is Jesus, there is Jesus, Jesus is in the Desert go see, do not believe them.

Paul gives himself away in his own letters. He says Satan can quote scripture. And he says that even the Devil can appear as an angel of light. That light he met on the road to Damascus. Where Saul was once again going to preside over the execution of a Christian. There are two accounts in scripture that relate that meeting on the road. And they're both different.
So which is it?

When Jesus said anyone who tells you they have met me, or there is Jesus, after I've ascended to the father, do not believe them. But we do. Because 3/4ths of the new testament is written by a man Jesus condemned. So we wonder, how is it there are demons on earth plaguing people today? We ask, what did Jesus accomplish on the cross?
We dare not think of it. Else we'd have no need to ask the questions. Because we're being led astray by a false teacher who contradicted Jesus teachings, never speaks in concert with Jesus' words when the master was alive and traveling among the Jews delivering his ministry in person. And instead manages his own churches and commands people to obey his rules and insight about God, Christ, and salvation.

Think of what Paul and the Roman's who, through the convening of councils over the years, have arrived at in creating the Greek language new testament. What they've told you you are to be, when Jesus said ye are Gods. And God said he has created each and every one of us in his image and likeness.

You're suppose to turn the other cheek when you're hit. If that one that hit you wants to take your life, you're not to fight to save it.
If you're robbed, you're to give that robber something more.
And you're suppose to love them for it.
You're suppose to be obedient to your masters, and to those put in authority over you, because God set them there.
You're suppose to not want any material possessions, any monetary security, and you're suppose to love that. Because of the promise that as you languish in the gutter, once you're dead you'll have everything you were suppose to deny yourself while able to enjoy it in the flesh.

And prior to coming into the flesh, by God's will, you were found guilty of being human. Because you were born into sin. But if Jesus took the sins of the whole world upon himself on the cross, how could sin remain in the world?
Unless Jesus failed. And 1 Timothy 4:10, is therefore a lie.

We were forewarned when we were told satan travels the earth as a hungry lion looking for souls to devour.
When Jesus forewarned us, and the early scribes allowed that warning to remain in scripture so the astute could be warned and disregard the texts in majority that would create a Pauline community and therefore repeal Jesus' mission, Jesus knows it all. And now he watches to see who of his true flock follow him where he promised he shall ever be found.

Inside those who hold faith in him and him alone.
The kingdom of God, for Jesus was God, is within.

Everyone in this forum who ascribes to the epistles of the Pharisee Saul are a Pauline. Not a Christian.
Do the research, read and learn, pray, meditate as Jesus did, and find the truth.

Narrow is the gate.

<<Everyone in this forum who ascribes to the epistles of the Pharisee Saul are a Pauline. Not a Christian.>>

yawn

 

[Angelina]

What are you saying?...that those who believe in Paul"s writings are not Christian? :huh: