St. Francis of Assisi

[Thankful 1]

Well, my thinking is that it is always better to hear it from the horse's mouth rather than from a spectator. St. Francis of Assisi was a Catholic through and through. The prism of an author that you haven't read for thirty years and who sounds like a Protestant seems to make the impression farther removed and distant. An artist can create a lovely unicorn, and author can write an impression, but that does not necessarily make unicorns real or that impression real. Which is why I feel the writtings of St. Francis and St. Clare offer the best source first, and then the writings of their Franciscan disciples. I appealed earlier to the Scripture only as an example that applying hermeneutical precision is necessary, and if you treat the writings of St. Francis and St. Clare with the same methodical research that you might apply to the Scriptures... you would not be preaching to me the fallacy of Catholicism in St. Francis day... you'd be able to show me with good citations, primary resources, and more authoritative and reliable sources.

You still avoided my point. I had all ready given up on any points that any biography other than the one the Catholic Church indorses. We can’t prove anything by reading anyone’s biography, because they all will have that good chance of forgery.



Also not many Protestants would make the points I made.



I will ask you again.



Jesus asked Francis in your version of his biography, if he was going to follow God or man; when he was going to fight in the Crusades. In the version I read the question was; are you going to follow the prince of the world or God.



Looking at the two versions it is not much different. If the Crusades were of God, then I doubt Jesus would have said man.



When some one was following the pope he or she would have been under the understanding that they were doing God’s work. Jesus made it plain to Francis that the Crusades were not God’s work.

 

[St Columcille]

Jesus asked Francis in your version of his biography, if he was going to follow God or man; when he was going to fight in the Crusades. In the version I read the question was; are you going to follow the prince of the world or God.



Looking at the two versions it is not much different. If the Crusades were of God, then I doubt Jesus would have said man.



When some one was following the pope he or she would have been under the understanding that they were doing God’s work. Jesus made it plain to Francis that the Crusades were not God’s work.

Again, you are going to have to cite the reference regarding the versions you supposedly use. Serving the Prince of this World and serving Man are two different things. For you can serve Man working at McDonald's, when I go as a customer and ask for a McDouble, is not the employees serving men and women, children and elderly? Serving the Prince of the World would clearly denote a service of a different kind, where one is into idolatry and acts of immorality. In what I recall, he was serving his biological father's interests and not the devil. Now his biological father's interests were indeed selfish, and so by an indirect means Francis was going the wrong the route.

In regards to the Crusades, that is more along the lines of St. Augustine's "Just War" concept. St. Francis was not negating St. Augustine, St. Francis had a different calling, that is all. We all must discern our individual calling in regards to everying from what job we take, what education we are building up, and what we are going to eat tonight. These types of callings and choices are not something by which St. Francis was an all or nothing guy in dictating to others. Whether one is a vegetarian or meat eater, whether one is passive or partipating in a Just War, this is not something I think you will find St. Francis was very dogmatic one. The only thing that he does seem rather stringent on was his Rule for those that voluntarily chose to follow. Hence he was not condemning the Crusaders, he in fact helped them along King John.

 

[Thankful 1]

Again, you are going to have to cite the reference regarding the versions you supposedly use. Serving the Prince of this World and serving Man are two different things. For you can serve Man working at McDonald's, when I go as a customer and ask for a McDouble, is not the employees serving men and women, children and elderly? Serving the Prince of the World would clearly denote a service of a different kind, where one is into idolatry and acts of immorality. In what I recall, he was serving his biological father's interests and not the devil. Now his biological father's interests were indeed selfish, and so by an indirect means Francis was going the wrong the route.

In regards to the Crusades, that is more along the lines of St. Augustine's "Just War" concept. St. Francis was not negating St. Augustine, St. Francis had a different calling, that is all. We all must discern our individual calling in regards to everying from what job we take, what education we are building up, and what we are going to eat tonight. These types of callings and choices are not something by which St. Francis was an all or nothing guy in dictating to others. Whether one is a vegetarian or meat eater, whether one is passive or partipating in a Just War, this is not something I think you will find St. Francis was very dogmatic one. The only thing that he does seem rather stringent on was his Rule for those that voluntarily chose to follow. Hence he was not condemning the Crusaders, he in fact helped them along King John.

I can see that you are not able to conceive of the Church ever being in the wrong.



Have you ever had Jesus/Holy Spirit personally teach you anything? If you have then ask God what he thinks about a Christian killing anyone for any reason.

 

[St Columcille]

1) I can see that you are not able to conceive of the Church ever being in the wrong.

II) Have you ever had Jesus/Holy Spirit personally teach you anything? If you have then ask God what he thinks about a Christian killing anyone for any reason.

I) I've never stated that the Church can never be in the wrong. As a Catholic, I believe and affirm the Holy Spirit operates with the Church in specifically stating right doctrine and right morals. As far as administrative decisions, in changes in the form of Mass, in political relations, and in the fact that logistically the Catholic Church cannot possibily address every local problem, their room for mistakes and errors in judgement. The Church is made up of men, and men can make mistakes, but the supreme head of the Church who sits at the right hand of the Father, and he makes no mistakes. Hence, I believe that the Magesterium is protected by God in preserving them from errors in official doctrine and morals.

II) I am test all spirits, be like the Bereans in example and search the Scriptures, weigh the reasoning with evidences, and keep myself out of the equation as much as possible. I've learned many things personally by the Holy Spirit, much of which I moved on an action on faith and ask the Lord to confirm it later on like Gideon's fleece. When I joined the Marine Corps, I was living in a backslidden state, and I knew that God wanted me to join beyond the shadow of doubt. I asked for specific things I'd like to see when I was in my four year contract... all them came about and they came about against opposition and happened in such a way that exceeded my expectations. Since I have been a Marine, and a soldier in the TN Army National Guard, I wholeheartedly take issue with your understanding about a Christian killing anyone for any reason. King David was a man after God's own heart, and God sanctioned his killing his opponents; now if you want to affirm the heresy of Marcion and say the God of the Old Testament is a wrathful God and the God of the New Testament is a loving God... despite the Scriptures that state that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever... then we have come to fork in the road of the discussion. Do you hate American soldiers? Would you say all Christians who are in the uniform unChristian? I really do not think you understand the Church in the time of Francis, nor do I think, based on your lack of presenting your "version," that you do not understand Francis as well.

 

[Thankful 1]

I) I've never stated that the Church can never be in the wrong. As a Catholic, I believe and affirm the Holy Spirit operates with the Church in specifically stating right doctrine and right morals. As far as administrative decisions, in changes in the form of Mass, in political relations, and in the fact that logistically the Catholic Church cannot possibily address every local problem, their room for mistakes and errors in judgement. The Church is made up of men, and men can make mistakes, but the supreme head of the Church who sits at the right hand of the Father, and he makes no mistakes. Hence, I believe that the Magesterium is protected by God in preserving them from errors in official doctrine and morals.

II) I am test all spirits, be like the Bereans in example and search the Scriptures, weigh the reasoning with evidences, and keep myself out of the equation as much as possible. I've learned many things personally by the Holy Spirit, much of which I moved on an action on faith and ask the Lord to confirm it later on like Gideon's fleece. When I joined the Marine Corps, I was living in a backslidden state, and I knew that God wanted me to join beyond the shadow of doubt. I asked for specific things I'd like to see when I was in my four year contract... all them came about and they came about against opposition and happened in such a way that exceeded my expectations. Since I have been a Marine, and a soldier in the TN Army National Guard, I wholeheartedly take issue with your understanding about a Christian killing anyone for any reason. King David was a man after God's own heart, and God sanctioned his killing his opponents; now if you want to affirm the heresy of Marcion and say the God of the Old Testament is a wrathful God and the God of the New Testament is a loving God... despite the Scriptures that state that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever... then we have come to fork in the road of the discussion. Do you hate American soldiers? Would you say all Christians who are in the uniform unChristian? I really do not think you understand the Church in the time of Francis, nor do I think, based on your lack of presenting your "version," that you do not understand Francis as well.

I was in the US Armed Forces for five years, and was a Catholic for over forty years. I believed it was my responsibility to defend my Country, and family.



I held this belief for a year after Jesus started personally teaching me. One day as my wife and I were praying, Jesus came into my living room and told me that I was not to hurt/harm anyone for any reason.



I shared this with my wife and she got upset. She asked me if someone came into the house and was going to rape her would I let him. I told he that I might get in his way but I would not hurt him. She angrily left the room. I never tried to persuade her to what Jesus told me. I knew she had a close relationship with Jesus, and would ask him herself. Well she asked Jesus, and he told her I was right. She then told me; she would not want me to hurt her hypothetical rapist.



The Church is wrong in many things, but the important one are the teachings that do not agree with what Jesus taught.



There would never have been any reformation, if Constantine the Great were not allowed to take over the Church.



How many Catholic bishops do you know the walk in the gifts of an apostle? How many people do you know that truly walk in the gifts of the Holy Spirit?



How many miracles have you seen the clergy performed?



How many truly spiritual people do you know?



How many people will admit to not sin anymore?





(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”



I know the Church still has authority, but like what Jesus said about the Church in his day, you need to do as they say, but don’t



The Church today is no different than the Church he replaced.

 

[St Columcille]

Thankful 1, I do not think there is going to be any progress in further dialogue along the lines by which you seem to want to direct the discussion. Without any historical context, without reliable sources on the life and times of St. Francis, it does not provide any educational profit to the aspiring minds of future Church historians that might want to at least be introduced to St. Francis of Assisi as one of the great polarizing figures of Church history. WIthout any scholarly reference from you, I decline to comment further in regards to your particular understanding of St. Francis until you can substantiate the claims.

 

[lawrance]

So thankful 1 you do not sin any more ? come off it !
Pacifist Jesus was not.
Did he not say that he would come against such a one him self, some where in the Bible?
And did he not drive some people out with a whip?
I have never heard of any saint that was saying that they them self's were not a sinner but that everyone is, end of story.

 

[Thankful 1]

So thankful 1 you do not sin any more ? come off it !
Pacifist Jesus was not.
Did he not say that he would come against such a one him self, some where in the Bible?
And did he not drive some people out with a whip?
I have never heard of any saint that was saying that they them self's were not a sinner but that everyone is, end of story.

YesGod has made his home in me and has kept me sin free for over thirty years.



Jesusmay not be a pacifist; you see he is the lawgiver and the law enforcer. We are God’s servants, and do as he tellsus.



(Matthew5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ ButI say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”



(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love yourneighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and prayfor those who persecute you.”

Thankful 1, I do not think there is going to be any progress in further dialogue along the lines by which you seem to want to direct the discussion. Without any historical context, without reliable sources on the life and times of St. Francis, it does not provide any educational profit to the aspiring minds of future Church historians that might want to at least be introduced to St. Francis of Assisi as one of the great polarizing figures of Church history. WIthout any scholarly reference from you, I decline to comment further in regards to your particular understanding of St. Francis until you can substantiate the claims.

Thedocumentation that the Church accepts as true about Francis, in my opinion istoo self-serving to be trusted.



I would be happy to use the bible as documentation for what I share.

 

[St Columcille]

Thedocumentation that the Church accepts as true about Francis, in my opinion istoo self-serving to be trusted.



I would be happy to use the bible as documentation for what I share.

The bible is useful as a documentary for the life, times, and cultures of those whom it references, it is not a suitable documentary of St. Francis of Assisi, excepting where in his writings and the writings of the Franciscan explain how particular scriptures moved St. Francis of Assisi.

 

[lawrance]

So thankful 1 you say that you are not a sinner ?

Is that not a sin in it's self ?

Jesus did not appreciate being called good as he said only the Father is good.

 

[Thankful 1]

So thankful 1 you say that you are not a sinner ?

Is that not a sin in it's self ?

Jesus did not appreciate being called good as he said only the Father is good.

You some how got that verse wrong. Jesus said only God is Good. Jesus was letting the person know that he was God, and that is why he called him Good.



Jesus called us to be perfect. I know that means one needs to be sinless.



If you dare to find out, I will show you scripture that tells us that Christians are dead to sin. I will show you, that scripture tells us that if one sins he or she is of Satan.



Do you dare get into this discussion?

 

[lawrance]

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I consider only three Christian groupings: Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant. When you said you were not a Protestant, and you did not affirm being Catholic nor mentioned anything in regards to Orthodox--Eastern nor Oriental, I assumed your faith in Christ as a Christian was of a backslidden state. However, I hope you would head the advice of the writer of Hebrews:

Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who has promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good deeds, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition. 2008 (Heb 10:23–25). Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press.

I would hope that you would not let your past experiences taint you by preventing from meeting together with other Christians. Some Catholics may or may not agree with me on what I am about to advise you. However, I feel that Pope John Paul II's encyclical "Ut Unum Sint" does compel you to have some fellowship with other Christians if your own personal situation prevents you by distance, by economy, from attending Mass. You need to have others provoke you to love and good deeds. Now, I go to a Catholic Church, and I do not know any reason why people would not want to talk about Christ, since Christ is the very center of the Mass. And if the parish laity is lax, it is a perfect time for you to emulate St. Francis of Assisi and bring about genuine reform. To stay away is a silly excuse. And this is where imitating Paul as he imitates Christ comes in when imitating Francis of Assisi as he imitated Christ. The popular catch phrase "What Would Jesus Do?" is exemplified in the saints as St. Francis of Assisi.

I say that all true Christians are Catholic and it's a fact that many don't understand.

St Francis has a great depth in the spirit of Christ.

I meet together with anyone and i don't stay away but there is no point in talking to people who are not interested.
It may start on some simple points then it will just go off track into there garden or some other nonsense because they don't want to be seen to be lacking in depth.

 

[Thankful 1]

I say that all true Christians are Catholic and it's a fact that many don't understand.

St Francis has a great depth in the spirit of Christ.

I meet together with anyone and i don't stay away but there is no point in talking to people who are not interested.
It may start on some simple points then it will just go off track into there garden or some other nonsense because they don't want to be seen to be lacking in depth.

You did not respond to my challenge. That would have been a good discussion.



I do assemble with other Christians, but it is in a home church.



My job is to give a word. Jesus is with me at all times. I don’t need to go anywhere to be with him.



The assembly with other Christians is to have communion. I know what Paul said, or if not Paul, then who ever wrote Hebrews said.



I am a Christian, and my job is to give a word. The word I have to give is upsetting to the Church.



The Church is in extreme need of repentance.



By the way Hebrews also said: (Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

 

[lawrance]

You some how got that verse wrong. Jesus said only God is Good. Jesus was letting the person know that he was God, and that is why he called him Good.



Jesus called us to be perfect. I know that means one needs to be sinless.



If you dare to find out, I will show you scripture that tells us that Christians are dead to sin. I will show you, that scripture tells us that if one sins he or she is of Satan.



Do you dare get into this discussion?

Jesus is not the father he is the son.
The dude called him good teacher and i think it has to do with someone looking up to another person as being above or better than an other. so Jesus put him straight. don't bow down to any man. the spirit is what you need.

But you can't be sin less, as original sin is still on you. we are "called" to be sin less, and i think there is a difference. and no saint has ever said they were not a sinner.

I think the sin you are on about is moral evil.

Bring it on.

 

[St Columcille]

I say that all true Christians are Catholic and it's a fact that many don't understand.

St Francis has a great depth in the spirit of Christ.

I meet together with anyone and i don't stay away but there is no point in talking to people who are not interested.
It may start on some simple points then it will just go off track into there garden or some other nonsense because they don't want to be seen to be lacking in depth.

I would say that all true Christians are "catholic" and not necessarily "Catholic."

He did have great depth in the spirit of Christ, so much so that he recieved the stigmata near the end of his life.

I guess I really do not know your own situation, I am quite ignorant of all the circumstances. My statements were made on presumptions based on our differences of word usage.
We might be saying the same exact things, but expressing it differently. I am concerned over your spiritual welfare and so hoped my words would be seen as an encouragement.

 

[lawrance]

I would say that all true Christians are "catholic" and not necessarily "Catholic."

He did have great depth in the spirit of Christ, so much so that he recieved the stigmata near the end of his life.

I guess I really do not know your own situation, I am quite ignorant of all the circumstances. My statements were made on presumptions based on our differences of word usage.
We might be saying the same exact things, but expressing it differently. I am concerned over your spiritual welfare and so hoped my words would be seen as an encouragement.

I know what you are saying and understand.
it's a lot easier to explain person to person.
Thanks.

 

[lawrance]

You did not respond to my challenge. That would have been a good discussion.



I do assemble with other Christians, but it is in a home church.



My job is to give a word. Jesus is with me at all times. I don’t need to go anywhere to be with him.



The assembly with other Christians is to have communion. I know what Paul said, or if not Paul, then who ever wrote Hebrews said.



I am a Christian, and my job is to give a word. The word I have to give is upsetting to the Church.



The Church is in extreme need of repentance.



By the way Hebrews also said: (Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

I have nothing against what you are saying hear.
But as to deliberately commit sin i do not believe any true christian does want to, but old mate the Devil has his ways as he is so subtle and he is a master of temping and pulling the wool over our eyes and i am worried if you are just being complaisent with this, 'I don't sin position.'

 

[Thankful 1]

Jesus is not the father he is the son.
The dude called him good teacher and i think it has to do with someone looking up to another person as being above or better than an other. so Jesus put him straight. don't bow down to any man. the spirit is what you need.

But you can't be sin less, as original sin is still on you. we are "called" to be sin less, and i think there is a difference. and no saint has ever said they were not a sinner.

I think the sin you are on about is moral evil.

Bring it on.

I would like to share a letterof a man who knew what I know, and he had his tongue and right arm cut out andoff to stop him from sharing.



Thefollowing is a letter by Saint. Maximus the Confessor and it explains in a veryunique way what I have been saying, that people who know God do not sin.





Themanner of birth from God within us is two-fold: the one bestows the grace ofadoption, which is entirely present in potency in those who are born of God;the other introduces, wholly by active exertion, that grace which deliberatelyreorients the entire free choice of the one being born of God toward the Godwho gives birth. The first bears the grace, present in potency throughfaith alone; but the second, beyond, also engenders in the knower the sublimelydivine likeness of the One known, that likeness being effected preciselythrough knowledge. Therefore the first manner of birth is observed in somebecause their will, not yet fully detached from its propensity to the flesh,has yet to be wholly endowed with the Spirit by participation in the divinemysteries that are made known through active endeavor. Theinclination to sin does not disappear as long as they will it. For the Spirit does not give birth to anunwilling will, but converts the willing will toward deification. (So a person doesn’t stop sinning justbecause they will not to sin.) Whoever has participated in thisdeification through cognizance experience is incapable of reverting from rightdiscernment in truth, once he has achieved this in action, to something elsebesides, which only pretends to be that same discernment. (Once a personcomes to know God, through the Holy Spirit, they are incapable of reverting totheir sinful ways.) It is like the eye, which, once it has looked upon thesun, cannot mistake it for the moon or any of the other stars in theheavens. With those undergoing the(second mode of) birth, the Holy Spirit takes the whole of their free choiceand translates it completely from earth to heaven, and, through the trueknowledge acquired by exertion, transfigures the mind with the blessed lightrays of our God and Father, such that the mind is deemed another “God,” insofaras in its habitude if experiences, by grace, that which God himself does notexperience but “is” in his very essence. With those undergoing this second mode of baptism, their free choiceclearly becomes sinless in virtue and knowledge, as they are unable to negatewhat they have actively discerned through experience. So even if we have the Spirit of adoption, who is himself theSeed for enduring those begotten (through baptism) with the likeness of theSower, but do not present him with a will cleansed of any inclination ordisposition to something else, we therefore, even after being born of water andSpirit (Jn 3:5), willingly sin. Butwere we to prepare our will with knowledge to receive the operation of theseagents-water and Spirit, I mean-then the mystical water would, through ourpractical life, cleanse our conscience, and the life-giving Spirit would bringabout unchanging perfection of the good in us through knowledge acquired inexperience. Precisely for that reasonhe leaves, to each of us who are still able to sin, the sheer desire tosurrender our whole selves willing to the Spirit.



St. Maximus the Confessor

 

[St Columcille]

Thefollowing is a letter by Saint. Maximus the Confessor and it explains in a veryunique way what I have been saying, that people who know God do not sin.

Could you be more specific as to where you cut and pasted the material? i.e, do you have a link? Do you have a MLA citation?

Secondly, what does Maximus have to do with St. Francis of Assisi? (are we so quick to divert from the original post's topic?)

 

[Thankful 1]

Could you be more specific as to where you cut and pasted the material? i.e, do you have a link? Do you have a MLA citation?

Secondly, what does Maximus have to do with St. Francis of Assisi? (are we so quick to divert from the original post's topic?)

I am sorry my posts are derailing yourthread. I will stop for now, and letyou go on with out my interference.