You have said several times that because i don't see things your way i am unsaved,did you say it directly,no,your approach is more subtle than that but you have said it none the less...you even do it here suggesting that those who wish to go forward in Christ will benefit form your.....testimony,not content to let any statement or definition stand you feel the need to reword it into a judgement which you in fact have already made....that judgement being that you are the last word on everything and anyone who doesn't bow is unsaved.....that sir is evil.
State of grace
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You have said several times that because i don't see things your way i am unsaved,did you say it directly,no,your approach is more subtle than that but you have said it none the less...you even do it here suggesting that those who wish to go forward in Christ will benefit form your.....testimony,not content to let any statement or definition stand you feel the need to reword it into a judgement which you in fact have already made....that judgement being that you are the last word on everything and anyone who doesn't bow is unsaved.....that sir is evil.
So you are seeking the last word? You are displaying unbelief for all to see. Do you take any testimony seriously? What is your testimony? Rather than attack others and judge do you have anything of edifying value to contribute?
I understood that sanctification was an always present, ongoing process. If what you say is absolutely true, shouldn't what you experienced have been a repeating and expanding thing? Why was this amazing and perfect thing 14 years ago? If it was true growth in Christ...as in, your walking 'in' Him should have made you more like him...why hasn't it happened again and again in the time since? Why hasn't the time frame in which you live 'in' Him increased? If it hasn't, how we can call it true growth, true sanctification?
I'm sorry, but I just cannot believe that your every thought, action and deed was perfect. If indeed that was true, then during those two years, you would have been perfect...God could have taken you home because you had reached the pinnacle of human experience and hope. I understand the bible telling us that even while we are now made new, we are still human. John tells us that anyone who claims not to have sin is a liar and makes God a liar. I know he goes on to say that we are free from sin, but I believe this to be a statement of what we now have in Christ. Before, being captive to sin, means we had no way of overcoming our nature. But now, with a new heart and Christ walking with us, when confronted with sin, we do have the choice now to walk away from it...that is true freedom! But it does not mean that we are sin free...in fact all scripture would refute it. We shall only be completely sin free and perfect when we reach heaven or are given our new bodies. Until then we walk in sanctification...a process of growth that should make us more like Christ every year. Last year we fell into this sin, this year we have put that sin to death and are struggling with new sin!
As I said, I believe the power of the gospel is the strength, choice and ability to turn away from sin. We cannot say it means we are sin free, because too much of the NT talks about Christians who have sin! The walk is our ongoing process of choosing to put sin to death, to take a step, with the Holy Spirit, closer to being like Christ. I do believe in the gospel, and I do believe in the 'impossible', and I most certainly do believe in being 'filled with the Holy Spirit'...those amazing times when all you can see is God and you float around in a cloud of wonder and grace. But those times don't make us perfect, they but give us glimpses of what we hope to attain through our walk. I believe the road is narrow because it truly takes a person fully desiring the will of God to take the hand of the Spirit and turn away from sin day after day after day. It's a long road, because we don't do it everyday...we fall down and drop that hand occasionally. Paul, John, Peter...all the NT writers have written to fellow Christians encouraging them not to drop that hand, to keep going, and to call them to repentance when they have stopped.
Hey Aspen2, welcome to the forum! Can I ask why you've said the above? What exactly makes you find 'their god' unmerciful? Sorry...just want to clarify, as they have been several posters before yours!
Thanks!
Hi Rach! I would respond by saying that God is as interested in character as nature. In other words He leaves time for us to have a new lesson sink in and produce the character required to be able to carry a heavier weight of holiness. Just like in a school scenario there is the theoretical and the practical aspects to apprehend. So once a deeper lesson has been taught then one must ponder the implications and lessons one has learned. So there is growth on both fronts..all culminating in a deeper love for God together with a greater surrender. Nothing is wasted with God. I am still processing the lessons I learned in the time of the state of grace I experienced. I guess that once the lessons have fully sunk in then God will continue in a more "supernatural" way. But then again, maybe the faith and devotion that I have learned to have in God in all circumstances is the goal in itself.
We must have a taste of what we are going after in order to not be seeming to always learn something while actually not progressing in reality. It is about scale. If God had asked Noah to build a boat without showing him the standard...Noah might have only built a rowboat. How are we to know what constitutes enough growth? We need to understand the vastness of the scale of the requirement of God so as not to build something below the required standard. So God in His mercy allows us to experience what the final result will look like. I am trying to show from the bible that the standard of God in Christ is a new creation ALREADY created in holiness. This is like an ark that will save mankind. It remains for us to not be saysfied with less than the full requirement of God which is the full stature of Christ. If someone has a hard time with my testimony pointing in THAT direction..then so be it. I certainly don't hold my experience as more important to the plain text of the bible.
We are to constantly walk in the Spirit...as we learn to rely on God alone. The new testament is according to the power of the divine character of a new creation which is IN Christ. To walk in this one must first be dead to sin. A dead man doesn't do what a live man does. One who is dead in Christ shows forth Christ not himself. :)
So yes...we stumble and get misguided at times...but we still learning.
So God is trying to win our hearts to choose to be continually dependent on Him for every breath. This process goes very deep and takes time. We won't all benefit the same from the same training. We are told that some will grow 30 fold, 60 fold and 100 fold. But the scale of training is the same.
Hey! I do most certainly agree that God wants things to 'sink in' and build us up in body as well as just in mind. It's a big difference from simply comprehending what He's asking of us, to actually doing it and living it!
But I can't help but wonder at where you're coming from with this. To my mind, either this 'being in Christ' that you experienced is the ultimate thing for a Christian to seek in their walk of life (which seems to what you suggest in your opening post)...and is what the bible teaches us our 'sanctification' means...and therefore our spiritual progress would be measured in whether we are actually progressing in this state. Or, if it doesn't mean that, and it actually means, as you suggest above, that such moments are only there to teach us devotion and faith to God, then your OP loses some merit. Because it cannot be both...and I'm not trying to tear you down..it just doesn't make sense to me theologically. It can be the ultimate understanding of what the gospel is teaching and the spot where truly spiritual giants reach, and reach more and more as they grow...or it is only brief learning moment which leads to a slow but hand in hand walk with the Spirit that progresses that way.
I'm not actually sure I'm understanding your point here. I would have to say that in some ways it's not necessary to 'have a taste'...that is where faith comes in. Noah built to God's specifications because he had faith in God, that God would bring it all about as He had said. As far as Christians 'experiencing' that freedom to really know what they are 'progressing' towards, I have to disagree that that experience would need to be perfection. And I certainly can't see evidence in scripture that suggests we are given glimpses of perfection in our earthly lives. I believe that the only experiences we need are these: the ability to turn away from sin, rather than be helpless to it and it's effect on our lives; the knowledge that only in following and loving God gives ultimate freedom and joy! The standard of Jesus' perfection in life and death for us to hold up. We don't need to experience in our own lives because we have the picture of His life before us in scripture that we strive to head towards. This is why the Bible tells us we have Jesus as an example...that although we need to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" and we will not be perfect in this life time, we know the exact standards we need to work towards...Jesus!
See, I don't disagree with this. I most definitely agree that as Christians we stumble at times, that we have to keep getting back up. The problem I have...theologically and doctrinally, is that you claim for a space of 2 years that you were perfect. But then you were not perfect again. If you had achieved a state of perfection 'in Christ', then why would you have fallen again? I just don't believe the bible talks of humans, even Christian ones, be able to be perfect this side of death. I believe it talks of us trying to be, of us doing everything we (and the Holy Spirit) can in an effort to kill sin and live that example Jesus gave us. But we are fighting against our old selves (John), and that battle will take our life times. The freedom of Jesus is knowing that battle by battle we will advance, and that in the end, our war will be won, by and in Christ.
Maybe the reason you're not having the effect on people you think you should be having is because you're chiding people for not living in a state of mind that you yourself are not able to live in. Just saying.
If we can imagine Jesus as the ultimate guitar teacher and we as His students then we can see walking in the Spirit like Jesus playing through our hands so that we can get the complete idea of what it means to be a virtuoso. So when the Master is NOT playing through our hands we can yet practice to some degree (and to a greater and greater degree) what we have learned. So that is how our character begins to reflect more and more the character of the Master even when He is not taking the full control of the reigns, so to speak. The truth is always like a wheel within a wheel. It is not so straightforward and one-sided. We are to be guided to both to will and to do. Again, how can I know what being a virtuoso is like when I have no teacher?
Without the perfect standard of Christ, we are left to ourselves to determine that standard for ourselves. If we do this then we will have no unity...thousands of denominations....er...wait a minute! ;)
The full stature of Christ IS the only goal of the Christian. Doing the best we can is an old testament standard. How can we only aim for this standard when we are offered the grace to walk as Jesus walked?
We are already perfect when we abide in Christ...just not mature. So the perfect walk is to walk in the Spirit. That it all. But God wants us to also teach us to love and persevere in our own souls...through His example. That is why we add to our faith the qualities we read in 2 Peter that cause us to never stumble. So whether we are present with the Lord or temporarily absent from the immediate presence of the Lord our devotion never wavers.
So the talent He gives us is His grace and the talent (the parable of the talents) we return to Him on our investment is the character that is worked into us through the experience of that grace.
I am speaking of grace...something that I neither invented or have any say over. I am simply stating my experience to a very biblical commandment...to be filled with the Spirit and walk in the Spirit. This is for all who are called to follow Christ. So it is God that is trying to get the message accross from the bible. My failure is not in relating my experience so much as not being able to say it better than the bible explains it.
Okay...I see what you're saying, but how does "Jesus taking the reigns" equate with the responsibility we must take for our actions? Where does the bible speak of Jesus taking complete control of our actions and thoughts...even for a time. I don't believe we can deduce this from passages that state that we are 'in Christ' and he is 'in us'...I think those passages have other and more logical interpretations. Because, if those passages did in fact mean that all Christians would have times where Jesus took the wheel to give us a taste of perfection, that would mean that every single saved person would have periods of time like the one you say you had. I know many Christians who are progressing in their walk, but would never say they have spent any amount of time living in complete perfection. So you seem then, by following that conclusion you have, be saying that some Christians are more special than others in receiving that blessing from Jesus, and that's another concept we don't find in scripture.
Here, I'd have to disagree. We are most certainly not left to determine what standard perfection is for ourselves! We have the complete picture of Jesus in the scriptures, and we have the indwelling of the Spirit which convicts us and encourages us in our walk.
Yes, we are to 'do our best', but in the OT that standard was for trying to achieve salvation. We already have that...so in 'doing our best' we are only responding to that very salvation. Using the new heart we have been given to turn our back on sin. The Spirit is with us, guiding and empowering us to do this, to be really able to give our best.
I think in situations like this we can look to Paul. The man was possibly one of the most godly people we'll ever know of. He wrote books of the bible under direction of the Spirit; discipled most of the new church Christians and suffered untold miseries for the gospel. That man loved Jesus and lived a wonderful life of purpose and sanctification. And yet, towards the end of his life, he still called himself the chief of all sinners. He admitted he was still far from being perfect. He, of all people, would have had a clear vision of the perfection he was to aim for, and by golly, the man did his best to walk towards it, but we know he only ever attained it fully when he left this world. The same is for us. We can have a clear picture of what we need to become...the perfection of Jesus within this world, but the bible is very clear...we will not achieve perfection until we too die and leave this fallen world and our fallen bodies.
See, here again I would want to clarify something. In Christ, we are seen as perfect in the eyes of God. We have Christ's righteousness when God looks at us. But we are not perfect...not yet. Look at it like this. Christ's life was perfect, yet His death took on every sin. Our lives are not perfect, with many sins, but in Christ our death will be paid for.
I agree we walk in the Spirit, and He empowers us to a more Christ like life...something we could not do on our own. But the very fact that the bible has all these passages urging us to work towards humility, and compassion, and love and consideration for others...etc, etc, just shows us that Christians are not, and will not be perfect in this life time. We need instruction, edification, encouragement to continue our walk.
I do not believe that Jesus comes to us at times to make us perfect, then withdraws again. First, it's not taught in scripture, and second, He tells us He is with us forever. That the Spirit is with us forever. There are times, the bible teaches us, and life backs this up; that we hold Hand and walk with Him, following Him and obeying Him. And there are times that we drop His hand and fall. The onus is all on us...we are sinful, He is not. And all the benefit you speak of, can be received by just building our relationship with Him and reading His word, learning who He was and how He lived.
Some of your ideas have merit...yes we are add to our character, that is in scripture. Yes, we are to love and help others...that is in scripture. Yes, we are to walk with Jesus and learn everything from Him...that too is in scripture. But I can't help but feel that you are then taking an added step that is not in scripture, in suggesting that we can be perfect in this life, in this body. That Jesus will 'live in us' and everything we do, think and say will be perfect. These ideas are not found in scripture. Sure, the phrases 'in Christ' is found everywhere, and has precious, precious meaning. But I cannot see it meaning what you say it does...quite simply because then it would be contradicting other scriptures that say we still sin.
What does Paul mean when he says that it is no longer he that lives but Christ...or that we are dead to sin in Christ? This used to be understood and lived out by the church. No longer it would seem (or so little as to not upset the majority view)! So men have changed the meaning of the bible in order to reduce it to a merely religious grasp of the text rather than a life lived in conformity to the word...and Christ. We do not measure truth by the number of people who can vouch for the accuracy of the bilical testimony. When someone walks in the Spirit (according to Paul) he will not do what the flesh desires. John goes further and sys that a born again person cannot sin because of the divine nature in that person. To ignore this aspect of the word is to fall in with the popular religious culture of our times. There are no scriptures that state that we must all experience (or not experience) the same connection with God. Quite the opposite.
You have missed what I am saying. I have stated that WITHOUT the perfect measure of CHrist as a standard we WILL set our own standard...such as NOT believing in the attainment of the full stature of Christ.
We are not just seen as perfect...that is a fallacy that stems from a reaction to the Roman system by the reformation. We BECOME the righteousness of God in Christ...not WE just appear to be this righteous. The gospel has real power but not the power to deceive God as to our true condition. Rather the power of the gospel causes us to walk even as He walked (This from 1 John 2)
You really must provide scripture to back up a belief system that limits followers of Christ to not become ACTUALLY cleansed from all sin.
Paul does not say..you are filled with the Spirit but BE filled with the Spirit. The Galatians weren't doing this. I am simply seeking to encourage this.
What sin do we do when we are abiding in Christ? Do we have a sinful Saviour?
Jesus' blood cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness...not just partially until we die. How we walk AFTER that cleansing depends on our characters...how deeply we walk in Christ depends on our faith. Do all Christians walk on water? So if one does then does that make it somehow wrong? Or should we see the work of Christ in us as a body ministry where one finds a breach in the wall for others to follow?
A point I was trying to make is that your former experience is not your current reality. Isn't that a fair assessment? I mean you yourself said in so many words that the former glory is gone. 14 years ago is not today. It really doesn't matter what you experienced then; all that matters is right here right now.
I agree! And the rest of my existence is to return to that very place that I have previously known.
I too am seeking the same thing. I pray you will be blessed in your endeavor.
Firstly, I believe it's quite clear what Paul means when he says that Christ lives in us, that we are dead to sin in Christ. As I said in my last post, it's a case of the substitutionary atonement. 'In Christ' our lives are seen as blameless and pure. Christ's work of righteousness lives 'within' us because of His sacrifice. God looks at us and sees Jesus perfect life, and atoning death, not our sins and failures. That is what it means for us to be 'In Christ'...we live our lives within the bounds of that propitiation, of His very life and death, just as His life and death now dwell within us. I do not believe the bible gives us leave, in any way, to say that Jesus is actually living our lives for us. Jesus does not inhabit our bodies to the extent that when we stub our toes, it's actually Jesus who feels the hurt.
Secondly, I believe that taking those verse which you are talking about, without considering the other verses that speak of sin still within our lives, is not very hermeneutically wise. Everything in scripture must be understood against what scripture has already said. Yes, John says we 'cannot sin', but if we look at the passages leading up to where he says that, we draw a conclusion based on what point John is trying to make, and not from just what the sentence in and of itself says.
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:5-10 ESV)
There are several important points here. First, in verse 6, we see that he begins the chapter with the idea that we cannot 'claim' to be Christian, if we continue to walk in darkness. In other words, those who continue on in a lifestyle of unrepentant sin, is not truly born again.
Then we also see, in very clear words, that John says that we all sin. Anyone who says he doesn't sin is a liar. That's kind of plan and simple to understand.
We also see that God expects us to live a constant life of repentance. That's what being a Christian is, how our progressive walk in the Spirit works...we constantly repent of the sins in our lives, and true repentance is to put them to death and not go back to them. In other words, we can't just say 'oh, is that wrong? whoops, but whatever'. That is 'walking in darkness'.
If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him. (1 John 2:29 ESV)
Again...the thought that we must actively participate in our sanctifying walk with the Spirit. (I'm not talking salvation here, but what comes after the free gift of grace.)
Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. (1 John 3:2-9 ESV)
In verse 3 we see that we are not yet perfect, and won't 'be like Christ' until He returns.
And then we move on to the verses you were talking about, where Christians 'don't sin'. But as you can see, it doesn't actually say we are sin free. It says that those who are truly redeemed will not make a practice out of sinning. It ties back in to what John said in Chapter one, verse 6. As people who have that 'seed of God' living within us, we cannot go on and on with unrepentant sin in our lives. It's like the pastor who stands up and preaches about the sin of adultery, but is cheating on his wife...and refuses to stop. That man, according to John, is not a Christian. Other pastors will not be perfect, but when they are convicted of a sin, because they have the new heart Jesus gave them, and the freedom from sin through His death, they will be able to turn from that sin, and shine the light on that part of their life. So what John is saying here, is not that Christians do not, will not sin. He is saying that true believers will not recklessly and habitually violate the grace given to them.
I'm not trying to misunderstand! ^_^ I'm not trying to drag out the conversation just to pull apart your ideas either...I'm honestly striving to understand what you're say, and really trying to run it all by what scripture teaches...which I'm sure you agree is the best thing to weigh it all against!
And I'm afraid I'm still, apparently, not comprehending! Granted, we need Christ to be our example. But I'm saying that we have that example in scripture and through the prompting of the Holy Spirit, where as, I understand you to be saying that we need that example from the times that Christ 'takes the wheel' from us and drives a bit in our body, so we can then see how He does it. So, what I understand you to be saying, is unbiblical. If my understanding of your point is faulty...sorry!
Ah yes, one of the most awesome passages in scripture:
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:21 ESV)
This means that just as God imputed our sin and guilt to Christ (“he made him to be sin”) so God also imputes the righteousness of Christ—a righteousness that is not our own—to all who believe in Christ. Because Christ bore the sins of those who believe, God regards and treats believers as having the legal status of “righteousness”.
Again, it all comes down to Jesus. What we have now, as believers, all belongs too and comes from Jesus. In "the Great Exchange" God has accredited to us Jesus' perfect life, death and righteousness. It will never be 'our own'...in that we can never claim that it is our work, or goodness. We may have it, but it's always Jesus'. We receive this righteousness not because Jesus pops in now and again to take the wheel, but because we have faith in Him who redeems us.
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: (Romans 3:22 ESV)
No, no! I'm not saying where not 'cleansed' of all sin. Jesus, in His death, has wiped them all away! Our past, present and future sin are seen as nothing, because when God looks at us, He only sees Christ's righteousness. What I am saying, is that despite that grace, that forgiveness, we do still sin. We fight against it, we are grieved by it, and we know it's wrong. But we still do it. We think rude thoughts of people who wrong us. We argue with our spouses and children. We turn our back on people we should help, because it's an inconvenience to us. We argue a bit too passionately on forums...
!! We still sin! But it is the new heart within us, the freedom from sin that grace has afforded us, that allows us to see that sin for what it is; an offence against God, and repent of it, ask for forgiveness, and walk away from it. We know that repentance is still necessary for those who follow Jesus, not just because of what John said (above), but other verses as well. I like this one...Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
(Luke 15:10 ESV)
Joy before the angels of God. The angels, who stand before God praising Him. God Himself rejoices when a sinner repents! That's kind of awesome, and also a pretty hefty weight towards the fact that we should!
Well, this gets into a bit of the doctrine on the Spirit, which would maybe be blowing it over the top a bit. But the bible tells us that when we are saved, we are baptised with the Holy Spirit. That is when He comes to live within us. But the Bible also talks of other 'Spirit'...um...events. There seems to be a distinction between being 'filled with' the Holy Spirit, and being 'full of' the Holy Spirit. I really haven't made an in depth study of it yet, but from what I understand being 'filled with' the Holy Spirit (above and beyond what 'normal' Christians have on a day to day basis) is when the Spirit empowers you to do something extraordinary, like heal, or speak in tongues, or know when that person over there needs your encouragement. And it also seems that being 'full of the Spirit' is something we should all be striving towards...that process of becoming more and more like Christ so that, as Paul (the Bible often talks of him withstanding and proclaiming with such conviction, peace of mind and love) does, we are full of the Spirit. But it took Paul many, many years of growth, repentance and learning to get there...and even at the end he admits he's still not perfect.
So, are we to encourage people to seek more of the Spirit's empowering? You bettcha! That's not a bad thing at all. But I strongly believe that the Bible tells us that to become 'full' of the Spirit, requires a lifelong commitment to the things of God...where to be honest, the more 'wise' we become of the things of God, the more, like Paul, we will say...'I am the chief of sinners.' No where does the bible encourage us to say 'aha! At last, I have reached the level where I am now "full" of the Spirit and perfect.' There is a big difference (vast, when considering the different natures between God and man) between straining to achieve something, and making it. Does that mean we stop trying? No...how can we? I will spend all my days trying to walk as God requires of me, but I do not...ever, expect to reach a level of perfection in line with Jesus. In fact in all the years of my Christian walk...I've only found Paul to be more wise...the more I grow, the more I see myself for a pitiful wretch desperately in need of Jesus' grace.
I've never suggested that Christ is sinful. All I'm striving to do is stick to scripture. We are told...repeatedly, that we are sinners. That we need to repent, that we need to, on our Christian walk, put to death things of the old nature and strive towards the things of Christ. Over and over we are told such things. So how can those passages be true, if, once Jesus lives 'in us' as you claim, we sin free and perfect? The answer is, they can't. Too much of the NT cannot be reconciled with the notion that here and now we can be perfect because Christ is once again living out His perfect life within us. That's just not what the bible teaches. It teaches that despite our sin, despite our rebellion, Jesus has died for us and given us, in the eyes of God, the righteousness and perfection needed to be reconciled with God.
Really, when it comes down to it, considering the number of verses that say: we are sinners. That our righteousness comes through faith in Christ, that we are to walk in a way that puts to death old things and praises God in the new. That really, the onus is on you to show how the bible promotes the idea that Jesus is actually taking over our reigns now and again and that we are now completely sin free (different from 'free from sin'...as I've explained before). I honestly can't see it. I honestly can't see the verses you give to say what you say they say! Especially given all the other verses. It's a nice idea and all...who wouldn't like Jesus to take over now and then so you don't feel like you're stuffing up all the time! Who wouldn't like to be free from sin, knowing that in any given situation you'll handle it in a godly manner. But the bible, and again, just reality, doesn't back those ideas up. We go out into the world, or just to our families, knowing that we can make godly choices, He has given us that freedom; but also knowing that it's just as likely for us to stub our toe and swear before thinking. Or that the kids decide it's a good thing to paint on the sofa, and you'll lose your temper before remembering God in the situation. The real mark of a Christian is not always being perfect...it's realising and repenting of that curse, of that temper implosion. That's what the bible teaches, and it's why the Spirit convicts us.
PS...sorry for the length...I'll cut 'em down from here on!!
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Only those who love perfectly cannot sin. Jesus is the only person I know who was able to love perfectly.
Amen! That is wy we need to abide in Him in order to fulfill His commandment to love as He loved. :)
OK I see where you are coming from. It can be boiled down to the way you understand the way righteousness works. You are arguing the "imputed righteousness" stance where one is "seen" as something one is not.Firstly, I believe it's quite clear what Paul means when he says that Christ lives in us, that we are dead to sin in Christ. As I said in my last post, it's a case of the substitutionary atonement. 'In Christ' our lives are seen as blameless and pure. Christ's work of righteousness lives 'within' us because of His sacrifice. God looks at us and sees Jesus perfect life, and atoning death, not our sins and failures. That is what it means for us to be 'In Christ'...we live our lives within the bounds of that propitiation, of His very life and death, just as His life and death now dwell within us. I do not believe the bible gives us leave, in any way, to say that Jesus is actually living our lives for us. Jesus does not inhabit our bodies to the extent that when we stub our toes, it's actually Jesus who feels the hurt.
Secondly, I believe that taking those verse which you are talking about, without considering the other verses that speak of sin still within our lives, is not very hermeneutically wise. Everything in scripture must be understood against what scripture has already said. Yes, John says we 'cannot sin', but if we look at the passages leading up to where he says that, we draw a conclusion based on what point John is trying to make, and not from just what the sentence in and of itself says.
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:5-10 ESV)
There are several important points here. First, in verse 6, we see that he begins the chapter with the idea that we cannot 'claim' to be Christian, if we continue to walk in darkness. In other words, those who continue on in a lifestyle of unrepentant sin, is not truly born again.
Then we also see, in very clear words, that John says that we all sin. Anyone who says he doesn't sin is a liar. That's kind of plan and simple to understand.
We also see that God expects us to live a constant life of repentance. That's what being a Christian is, how our progressive walk in the Spirit works...we constantly repent of the sins in our lives, and true repentance is to put them to death and not go back to them. In other words, we can't just say 'oh, is that wrong? whoops, but whatever'. That is 'walking in darkness'.
If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him. (1 John 2:29 ESV)
Again...the thought that we must actively participate in our sanctifying walk with the Spirit. (I'm not talking salvation here, but what comes after the free gift of grace.)
Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. (1 John 3:2-9 ESV)
In verse 3 we see that we are not yet perfect, and won't 'be like Christ' until He returns.
And then we move on to the verses you were talking about, where Christians 'don't sin'. But as you can see, it doesn't actually say we are sin free. It says that those who are truly redeemed will not make a practice out of sinning. It ties back in to what John said in Chapter one, verse 6. As people who have that 'seed of God' living within us, we cannot go on and on with unrepentant sin in our lives. It's like the pastor who stands up and preaches about the sin of adultery, but is cheating on his wife...and refuses to stop. That man, according to John, is not a Christian. Other pastors will not be perfect, but when they are convicted of a sin, because they have the new heart Jesus gave them, and the freedom from sin through His death, they will be able to turn from that sin, and shine the light on that part of their life. So what John is saying here, is not that Christians do not, will not sin. He is saying that true believers will not recklessly and habitually violate the grace given to them.
I'm not trying to misunderstand! ^_^ I'm not trying to drag out the conversation just to pull apart your ideas either...I'm honestly striving to understand what you're say, and really trying to run it all by what scripture teaches...which I'm sure you agree is the best thing to weigh it all against!
And I'm afraid I'm still, apparently, not comprehending! Granted, we need Christ to be our example. But I'm saying that we have that example in scripture and through the prompting of the Holy Spirit, where as, I understand you to be saying that we need that example from the times that Christ 'takes the wheel' from us and drives a bit in our body, so we can then see how He does it. So, what I understand you to be saying, is unbiblical. If my understanding of your point is faulty...sorry!
Ah yes, one of the most awesome passages in scripture:
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:21 ESV)
This means that just as God imputed our sin and guilt to Christ (“he made him to be sin”) so God also imputes the righteousness of Christ—a righteousness that is not our own—to all who believe in Christ. Because Christ bore the sins of those who believe, God regards and treats believers as having the legal status of “righteousness”.
Again, it all comes down to Jesus. What we have now, as believers, all belongs too and comes from Jesus. In "the Great Exchange" God has accredited to us Jesus' perfect life, death and righteousness. It will never be 'our own'...in that we can never claim that it is our work, or goodness. We may have it, but it's always Jesus'. We receive this righteousness not because Jesus pops in now and again to take the wheel, but because we have faith in Him who redeems us.
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: (Romans 3:22 ESV)
No, no! I'm not saying where not 'cleansed' of all sin. Jesus, in His death, has wiped them all away! Our past, present and future sin are seen as nothing, because when God looks at us, He only sees Christ's righteousness. What I am saying, is that despite that grace, that forgiveness, we do still sin. We fight against it, we are grieved by it, and we know it's wrong. But we still do it. We think rude thoughts of people who wrong us. We argue with our spouses and children. We turn our back on people we should help, because it's an inconvenience to us. We argue a bit too passionately on forums...
Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
(Luke 15:10 ESV)
Joy before the angels of God. The angels, who stand before God praising Him. God Himself rejoices when a sinner repents! That's kind of awesome, and also a pretty hefty weight towards the fact that we should!
Well, this gets into a bit of the doctrine on the Spirit, which would maybe be blowing it over the top a bit. But the bible tells us that when we are saved, we are baptised with the Holy Spirit. That is when He comes to live within us. But the Bible also talks of other 'Spirit'...um...events. There seems to be a distinction between being 'filled with' the Holy Spirit, and being 'full of' the Holy Spirit. I really haven't made an in depth study of it yet, but from what I understand being 'filled with' the Holy Spirit (above and beyond what 'normal' Christians have on a day to day basis) is when the Spirit empowers you to do something extraordinary, like heal, or speak in tongues, or know when that person over there needs your encouragement. And it also seems that being 'full of the Spirit' is something we should all be striving towards...that process of becoming more and more like Christ so that, as Paul (the Bible often talks of him withstanding and proclaiming with such conviction, peace of mind and love) does, we are full of the Spirit. But it took Paul many, many years of growth, repentance and learning to get there...and even at the end he admits he's still not perfect.
So, are we to encourage people to seek more of the Spirit's empowering? You bettcha! That's not a bad thing at all. But I strongly believe that the Bible tells us that to become 'full' of the Spirit, requires a lifelong commitment to the things of God...where to be honest, the more 'wise' we become of the things of God, the more, like Paul, we will say...'I am the chief of sinners.' No where does the bible encourage us to say 'aha! At last, I have reached the level where I am now "full" of the Spirit and perfect.' There is a big difference (vast, when considering the different natures between God and man) between straining to achieve something, and making it. Does that mean we stop trying? No...how can we? I will spend all my days trying to walk as God requires of me, but I do not...ever, expect to reach a level of perfection in line with Jesus. In fact in all the years of my Christian walk...I've only found Paul to be more wise...the more I grow, the more I see myself for a pitiful wretch desperately in need of Jesus' grace.
I've never suggested that Christ is sinful. All I'm striving to do is stick to scripture. We are told...repeatedly, that we are sinners. That we need to repent, that we need to, on our Christian walk, put to death things of the old nature and strive towards the things of Christ. Over and over we are told such things. So how can those passages be true, if, once Jesus lives 'in us' as you claim, we sin free and perfect? The answer is, they can't. Too much of the NT cannot be reconciled with the notion that here and now we can be perfect because Christ is once again living out His perfect life within us. That's just not what the bible teaches. It teaches that despite our sin, despite our rebellion, Jesus has died for us and given us, in the eyes of God, the righteousness and perfection needed to be reconciled with God.
Really, when it comes down to it, considering the number of verses that say: we are sinners. That our righteousness comes through faith in Christ, that we are to walk in a way that puts to death old things and praises God in the new. That really, the onus is on you to show how the bible promotes the idea that Jesus is actually taking over our reigns now and again and that we are now completely sin free (different from 'free from sin'...as I've explained before). I honestly can't see it. I honestly can't see the verses you give to say what you say they say! Especially given all the other verses. It's a nice idea and all...who wouldn't like Jesus to take over now and then so you don't feel like you're stuffing up all the time! Who wouldn't like to be free from sin, knowing that in any given situation you'll handle it in a godly manner. But the bible, and again, just reality, doesn't back those ideas up. We go out into the world, or just to our families, knowing that we can make godly choices, He has given us that freedom; but also knowing that it's just as likely for us to stub our toe and swear before thinking. Or that the kids decide it's a good thing to paint on the sofa, and you'll lose your temper before remembering God in the situation. The real mark of a Christian is not always being perfect...it's realising and repenting of that curse, of that temper implosion. That's what the bible teaches, and it's why the Spirit convicts us.
PS...sorry for the length...I'll cut 'em down from here on!!
I disagree most fervently with this. I agree with the Catholic stance of "infused righteousness". We don't become the representation of God's righteousness symbolically...we actually become that righteousness by abiding in the One who IS that righteous. Jesus doesn't inhabit us as an idea..but in the Spirit and truth. This causes anyone to walk as He walked. Protestant theology only skims the surface in my view. Seeing that I have actually experienced this profound truth I cannot but refuse the evangelical stance.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Not sure what you mean by 'abiding in him'.....
I do know that we are called to pick up our cross and follow him, daily, but that is not a formula for us to stop sinning instantly. Paul certainly knew that.
Sanctification (perfection) takes a life time.
The idea that 'Christians do not sin because Christians do not sin' begs the question. It is also contrary to reality in the lives of every Christian besides Jesus.
I do know that we are called to pick up our cross and follow him, daily, but that is not a formula for us to stop sinning instantly. Paul certainly knew that.
Sanctification (perfection) takes a life time.
The idea that 'Christians do not sin because Christians do not sin' begs the question. It is also contrary to reality in the lives of every Christian besides Jesus.
If you did understand what it means to carry our cross then you would also understanding what abiding in the prepared place in Zion means. There is no sin in Zion. There is no sin in Christ. If we see Christ as a symbolic grasping of the mind then there is certainly no power in that to walk without sin. So the argument follows that if you remain in your own strength you will sin. If you remain in Christ (having been crucified in the old nature) then you will walk exactly as Jesus in the world THROUGH His grace empowering. That is Christianity,
Sin is the result of missing the mark...missing who Jesus really is. The lives of Christians are the lives of men. The life that is forsaken in order to be poured INTO Jesus is the life of Christ being exhibited.
So you either continue your life and sin...or die to your old life and walk in Christ who is our righteousness and sinlessness. That is the nature of grace...to be holy as the Father is holy. Most evangelicals don't seem to understand the plain meaning of this.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
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