State of grace

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Episkopos

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The evangelical position states that even if a person is "full" of grace that grace cannot turn him from sinning. This is contrary to the bible. If we are dead in Christ we are dead to sin. So the justification schemes by the religious community are created according to the experience of men rather than the experience of what the bible is testifying to.

Zion is where a Christian is to presently abide. This reality is usually written off as another make-believe "positional" word play that destroys the significance of the word.

Take a simple concept...

Eph_2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Eph_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Those who have already been indoctrinated into what they have been led to believe as a full understanding will skate around verses like these (and many others) in order to deny the heavenly nature of the walk in Christ.

Basically modern evangelicals will push into the future what saints are supposed to attain to right now.

2Ti_3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
 

aspen

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The evangelical position states that even if a person is "full" of grace that grace cannot turn him from sinning. This is contrary to the bible. If we are dead in Christ we are dead to sin. So the justification schemes by the religious community are created according to the experience of men rather than the experience of what the bible is testifying to.

Zion is where a Christian is to presently abide. This reality is usually written off as another make-believe "positional" word play that destroys the significance of the word.

Take a simple concept...

Eph_2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Eph_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Those who have already been indoctrinated into what they have been led to believe as a full understanding will skate around verses like these (and many others) in order to deny the heavenly nature of the walk in Christ.

Basically modern evangelicals will push into the future what saints are supposed to attain to right now.

2Ti_3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

You are adding an either / or false dichotomy to the equation, which supports a nice and neat theological position, but denies reality. The best parallel I can think of off hand is the Catholic Churches position on ordaining homosexual priests:

homosexuality is not compatible with the priesthood
priests are celibate
therefore, homosexuality is not allowed in the priesthood.

It sacrifices people for the security of a tidy theological position, which is only satisfying to people who make the rules and never have to face the moral dilemma personally.

Another example is sticking to a comprehensive theology on the right to life. No abortion / birth control / death penalty under any circumstances because we must value life consistently at all times. It sounds good on paper - as longer as you do not travel to Africa or any third world nation where AIDS is infecting large amounts of people and the population is exploding.

Abstinence taught as the only form of birth control may help the parents of a teenage daughter sleep at night - well, until the baby arrives.

Justice needs to be tempered with mercy. Supporting people who break God's rules is not giving permission for people to break God's rules.
 

Episkopos

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You are adding an either / or false dichotomy to the equation, which supports a nice and neat theological position, but denies reality. The best parallel I can think of off hand is the Catholic Churches position on ordaining homosexual priests:

homosexuality is not compatible with the priesthood
priests are celibate
therefore, homosexuality is not allowed in the priesthood.

It sacrifices people for the security of a tidy theological position, which is only satisfying to people who make the rules and never have to face the moral dilemma personally.

Another example is sticking to a comprehensive theology on the right to life. No abortion / birth control / death penalty under any circumstances because we must value life consistently at all times. It sounds good on paper - as longer as you do not travel to Africa or any third world nation where AIDS is infecting large amounts of people and the population is exploding.

Abstinence taught as the only form of birth control may help the parents of a teenage daughter sleep at night - well, until the baby arrives.

Justice needs to be tempered with mercy. Supporting people who break God's rules is not giving permission for people to break God's rules.

I am simply talking of the gospel standard which is Christ. This keeps people humble...as in...one must be In Jesus to do His commandments...so no man can boast of being able to obey WITHOUT being in Christ.

Your argument refutes the evangelical position...

which goes like this..

I am saved...
I am humble..
...therefore anybody who seems to know God more than me is both proud and in danger for their salvation ;)

Nice and tidy!!! Just like the Pharisees of old who claimed to be able to understand the things of God so well as to presume to judge others by it.
 

Rach1370

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OK I see where you are coming from. It can be boiled down to the way you understand the way righteousness works. You are arguing the "imputed righteousness" stance where one is "seen" as something one is not.

How is that wrong? God 'sees' when He looks at me, the perfect life of Jesus. But I'm not Jesus, I have not and though I strive, will not, live the perfect life He did. If what you propose is absolutely true, then you are saying that God doesn't just see perfection through Christ when He looks at you...you are perfect, and that's what He sees when He looks at you. You may say that your perfection now comes from Jesus living in you now, but there are two very big problems with that. First, as I've said before, the bible does not, anywhere, speak of Jesus 'taking the wheel' of our bodies; thoughts and actions. Secondly, if that were strictly true, and you have 'become the righteousness of God' by receiving Jesus within you, then logically you would then always be perfect....always be that righteousness. Again, you yourself have found this not so. So, does that mean that while you were the righteousness of God 14 years ago, you haven't been since? No, it doesn't work that way. The bible teaches we become the righteousness of God by having faith in Jesus. Not by letting Jesus live 'through' us. We have been saved 'in Christ'...which can also been understood as being saved: 'by Christ', 'through Christ'. It is because we rest 'in' His life and death, that we have become the righteousness of God.
So, rationally, your idea doesn't really add up, I'm sorry. When it comes down to it, I'd rather God 'sees' me as something I'm not because of Jesus' sacrifice, then claim to be something I'm really not...perfect.
I'm kind of pushing this, I know. But it's because a lot of what you say is really good as has great merit. It's just that the bible says certain things that cannot be ignored or side stepped...and one of those things is that man will never be perfect in act, thought or deed, while here on the earth. We are only perfect in the sense that Jesus is, and He has imputed his righteousness onto us, so that God sees us that way. Honestly, if you claim to be perfect, as John says, you are simply a liar. Harsh, I know, but sometimes the truth is, and we should always be more concerned with what God thinks than man. And God is clear, we are pathetically in need of Jesus and His grace.

I disagree most fervently with this. I agree with the Catholic stance of "infused righteousness". We don't become the representation of God's righteousness symbolically...we actually become that righteousness by abiding in the One who IS that righteous. Jesus doesn't inhabit us as an idea..but in the Spirit and truth. This causes anyone to walk as He walked. Protestant theology only skims the surface in my view. Seeing that I have actually experienced this profound truth I cannot but refuse the evangelical stance.

I'm not saying that Jesus only inhabits us as an "idea"...we have the Spirit within us, for sure. And in a way yes, we do 'become' righteousness. But not because we are able to live it, only because it has been given to us. It's like...um...a race. The winner takes gold and we, limping a little, come in very last. The winner, turns to us and the officials and says, I give you my medal and my place. So, while quite simply we didn't win the race, nor, with our limp, ever will, we still receive all the benefits because the one who had them, passed them to us. But just because we recieve the medal and benefits doesn't mean we'll magically be able to be an incredible runner...doesn't work that way. How it does work is that that winner, he then says to us...I'll help you. I train with you, run with you, help you out on your way. We'll always be a crappy runner, but with that marvellous teacher guiding us, and as long as we try, we'll gradually improve over time.

Now, as far as your experience goes, I can't really comment on whether I think it was as you say or not...I didn't see it! But even though I find it hard to believe that during that whole time you were absolutely perfect in every way, I do not doubt that God, should he desire, can do anything for His good will and purpose. So yes, He may have intended that time to be an amazing learning and teaching point in your life. He may have used you during that time to forward His gospel and help others. But I believe you are wrong in now saying that that should be the norm for all Christians in their walk, that in fact, the bible supports it. And I think those things because the bible does not back you up in that thought. And because of the hundreds and thousands of honest, striving, constantly being sanctified Christians, who do not experience it at all in their life times. The disciples themselves never made any mention of such experiences...in fact we know that Peter...the leader of the apostles, even after years walking with the Spirit and Christ, still stuffed up. Christians are not perfect, and while that doesn't stop us striving towards it, we know we'll never get there in this life. And I don't think we should either. Should we ourselves reach perfection...then what need have we for a Saviour? No, this is as it should be...us relying on Jesus, looking to Jesus, walking with and towards Jesus. For His glory and our good.
 

aspen

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I am simply talking of the gospel standard which is Christ. This keeps people humble...as in...one must be In Jesus to do His commandments...so no man can boast of being able to obey WITHOUT being in Christ.

Your argument refutes the evangelical position...

which goes like this..

I am saved...
I am humble..
...therefore anybody who seems to know God more than me is both proud and in danger for their salvation ;)

Nice and tidy!!! Just like the Pharisees of old who claimed to be able to understand the things of God so well as to presume to judge others by it.

I am not an evangelical.

You may think that people would be more likely to give all the glory to God if they believed they were perfected instantly (as crazy as that sounds, as I read it back), but humans are prideful and can work a pride response into all theological systems. The monks in the middle ages tried to out humble each other - another form of pride - this is not explained away by claiming that they must not be Christians because they sinned, either.

What you are advocating only produces anxiety and wastes incredible amounts of energy on over vigilance. It also reflects a 'pop-up' image of God's presence in the average Christians daily life - in grace / out of grace 10 times before lunch for adults, impossible to record for the average teenage boy. Inside of trying to determine whether a light molecule is actually a particle or a wave, scientistists would be trying to figure out if a teenage boy is a Christian or a nonChristian!

Christians are called to love their neighbor through service - how is this possible if our relationship with God is so volatile? Not even the most Borderline parent would act so dysfunctional!

The result would be the kingdom of neurotic-ism is among us rather than the kingdom of God.
 

Episkopos

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I am not an evangelical.

You may think that people would be more likely to give all the glory to God if they believed they were perfected instantly (as crazy as that sounds, as I read it back), but humans are prideful and can work a pride response into all theological systems. The monks in the middle ages tried to out humble each other - another form of pride - this is not explained away by claiming that they must not be Christians because they sinned, either.

What you are advocating only produces anxiety and wastes incredible amounts of energy on over vigilance. It also reflects a 'pop-up' image of God's presence in the average Christians daily life - in grace / out of grace 10 times before lunch for adults, impossible to record for the average teenage boy. Inside of trying to determine whether a light molecule is actually a particle or a wave, scientistists would be trying to figure out if a teenage boy is a Christian or a nonChristian!

Christians are called to love their neighbor through service - how is this possible if our relationship with God is so volatile? Not even the most Borderline parent would act so dysfunctional!

The result would be the kingdom of neurotic-ism is among us rather than the kingdom of God.

that is unless the times when Jesus is carrying us teaches us something...
Act_4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

How is that wrong? God 'sees' when He looks at me, the perfect life of Jesus. But I'm not Jesus, I have not and though I strive, will not, live the perfect life He did.

How can you have a greater appreciation of reality that the Creator of the universe? What I', saying is that God is showing us through the Spirit what it means to walk as He walked. Since we are not as mature as ought to be it takes a long time to learn to remain in that place.

Paul said it was no longer he that lived but Christ AND that he had not yet attained...although he sought the fulness of Christ. So the truth encompasses both. There is what Jesus does through us AND what we do. Do we trust ONLY in God speaking and thinking ONLY His thoughts?



If what you propose is absolutely true, then you are saying that God doesn't just see perfection through Christ when He looks at you...you are perfect, and that's what He sees when He looks at you. You may say that your perfection now comes from Jesus living in you now, but there are two very big problems with that.

When Christ is living in us and through us we are as it were possessed of Christ...slaves really...not figuratively. So we belong to Christ are are seen in THAT light by God. My perfection comes from living IN Christ who is my perfection. When we put on the new man we are made instantly holy. Our only attainment is towards Christ. He is my sufficiency in ALL things. So when I am found IN Him I exhibit the qualities of Him.


First, as I've said before, the bible does not, anywhere, speak of Jesus 'taking the wheel' of our bodies; thoughts and actions. Secondly, if that were strictly true, and you have 'become the righteousness of God' by receiving Jesus within you, then logically you would then always be perfect....always be that righteousness. Again, you yourself have found this not so. So, does that mean that while you were the righteousness of God 14 years ago, you haven't been since? No, it doesn't work that way. The bible teaches we become the righteousness of God by having faith in Jesus. Not by letting Jesus live 'through' us. We have been saved 'in Christ'...which can also been understood as being saved: 'by Christ', 'through Christ'. It is because we rest 'in' His life and death, that we have become the righteousness of God.

There were no cars in those days...;) But there were slaves. A slave is driven to obey by his master...his life is no longer his own. So the slave becomes an extension of the master.

We cannot appropriate for ourselves the benefirs of Christ...we need to get out of the way and let HIS life shine through.

S
o, rationally, your idea doesn't really add up, I'm sorry. When it comes down to it, I'd rather God 'sees' me as something I'm not because of Jesus' sacrifice, then claim to be something I'm really not...perfect.


As I have said...it is not our perfection...it is His living through us. Without Him we can do nothing perfect.

I'm kind of pushing this, I know. But it's because a lot of what you say is really good as has great merit. It's just that the bible says certain things that cannot be ignored or side stepped...and one of those things is that man will never be perfect in act, thought or deed, while here on the earth. We are only perfect in the sense that Jesus is, and He has imputed his righteousness onto us, so that God sees us that way. Honestly, if you claim to be perfect, as John says, you are simply a liar. Harsh, I know, but sometimes the truth is, and we should always be more concerned with what God thinks than man. And God is clear, we are pathetically in need of Jesus and His grace.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.





I'm not saying that Jesus only inhabits us as an "idea"...we have the Spirit within us, for sure. And in a way yes, we do 'become' righteousness. But not because we are able to live it, only because it has been given to us. It's like...um...a race. The winner takes gold and we, limping a little, come in very last. The winner, turns to us and the officials and says, I give you my medal and my place. So, while quite simply we didn't win the race, nor, with our limp, ever will, we still receive all the benefits because the one who had them, passed them to us. But just because we recieve the medal and benefits doesn't mean we'll magically be able to be an incredible runner...doesn't work that way. How it does work is that that winner, he then says to us...I'll help you. I train with you, run with you, help you out on your way. We'll always be a crappy runner, but with that marvellous teacher guiding us, and as long as we try, we'll gradually improve over time.


But we can win the race...we are called to be overcomers. We don't become overcomers by losing. The grace of God is what empowers His children to win...we are made strong through Him in our weakness. We have no confidence in what we ourselves can do. The life we are to live is through Christ.

Php_4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Gal_2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

2Co_4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.


Now, as far as your experience goes, I can't really comment on whether I think it was as you say or not...I didn't see it! But even though I find it hard to believe that during that whole time you were absolutely perfect in every way, I do not doubt that God, should he desire, can do anything for His good will and purpose. So yes, He may have intended that time to be an amazing learning and teaching point in your life. He may have used you during that time to forward His gospel and help others. But I believe you are wrong in now saying that that should be the norm for all Christians in their walk, that in fact, the bible supports it. And I think those things because the bible does not back you up in that thought. And because of the hundreds and thousands of honest, striving, constantly being sanctified Christians, who do not experience it at all in their life times. The disciples themselves never made any mention of such experiences...in fact we know that Peter...the leader of the apostles, even after years walking with the Spirit and Christ, still stuffed up. Christians are not perfect, and while that doesn't stop us striving towards it, we know we'll never get there in this life. And I don't think we should either. Should we ourselves reach perfection...then what need have we for a Saviour? No, this is as it should be...us relying on Jesus, looking to Jesus, walking with and towards Jesus. For His glory and our good.

I think as long as we hold up the standard of Christ and are moving towards Him in obedience and faith...even if we do not reach maturity...yet we are His.

But we must take seriously our upward calling to the full stature in Christ. Our own efforts in this regard are indeed futile. We need to apprehend the grace that we have been apprehended for. We ned to attain to the salvation that are were saved for. Otherwise we will be ever learning by be missing the whole point of a resurrected Christ. We are to walk identically to our Master Jesus Christ. When we abide in Him...we do!


1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. So our race is one of faith. Knowing that such an immense provision of grace is ready for us when we forsake our own lives and ways...we seek to believe the impossible...that we can walk even as He walked. But this can only be done IN Him as slaves of Christ. This is very difficult to do. It is like growing gills and becoming a fish and reckoning that you will never walk as a human again.
 

Rach1370

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.........
I think maybe I'll stop here, because we've already said everything we have to say, I think. I don't think I'm going to convince you, or you me. Better to stop while it's still an academic conversation!
As I said before...I don't think your interpretation is right, but I don't doubt that 14 years ago you have an amazing time with our Lord, and I do hope you get that again, if it's your true desire...and if it truly glorifies God! I've enjoyed our debate...it always does help clarify what we ourselves believe, doesn't it??

See you around!
 

Episkopos

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I think maybe I'll stop here, because we've already said everything we have to say, I think. I don't think I'm going to convince you, or you me. Better to stop while it's still an academic conversation!
As I said before...I don't think your interpretation is right, but I don't doubt that 14 years ago you have an amazing time with our Lord, and I do hope you get that again, if it's your true desire...and if it truly glorifies God! I've enjoyed our debate...it always does help clarify what we ourselves believe, doesn't it??

See you around!

Ok C.U. :) Dialogue is always helpful.
 

aspen

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that is unless the times when Jesus is carrying us teaches us something...
Act_4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

There are certainly times when Jesus carries us or corrects us - but it does not mean that we stop being Christians. We are still in relationship with Him.