Strange Fire - A Pentecostal Response
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Some believe that miracles, signs and wonders are for today and given by Jesus and have scriptural support(I do) others do not believe in them and say that they do. Either way the essential to Christian faith is belief in Jesus and living out that belief in obedience through holiness and love! The Holy Spirit works salvation, gifts and all in the Church! He is here and is moving to them that avail to Him whether cessationist or not!
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, UHCAlan.
The problem is the WEIRD things that people do and say, claiming that they are doing them through the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God), when they have absolutely no Scriptural support at all for what they do and say! I'm not saying that God can't do something new and totally without limit if He so chooses to do, but it's what I was saying before.
Why would God authenticate a message of which He didn't approve? If we have a lack of power in most congregations around the world, it's because we aren't heralding the correct message, yet! What did Yeshua` say in the Olivet Discourse?
Matthew 24:14
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached (heralded) in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
KJV
And, God CERTAINLY authenticated that message while Yeshua` was here the first time!
Matthew 4:23-25
23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.
25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.
KJV
Matthew 9:35-38
35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching (heralding) the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
KJV
And, Yeshua` said,
John 5:37
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
KJV
Thus, His works - the miracles He performed - WERE His Father's authentication!
Show me someone who has figured out how to herald the good news about the coming Kingdom, and you ain't seen nuthin', yet!
The problem is the WEIRD things that people do and say, claiming that they are doing them through the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God), when they have absolutely no Scriptural support at all for what they do and say! I'm not saying that God can't do something new and totally without limit if He so chooses to do, but it's what I was saying before.
Why would God authenticate a message of which He didn't approve? If we have a lack of power in most congregations around the world, it's because we aren't heralding the correct message, yet! What did Yeshua` say in the Olivet Discourse?
Matthew 24:14
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached (heralded) in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
KJV
And, God CERTAINLY authenticated that message while Yeshua` was here the first time!
Matthew 4:23-25
23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.
25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.
KJV
Matthew 9:35-38
35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching (heralding) the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
KJV
And, Yeshua` said,
John 5:37
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
KJV
Thus, His works - the miracles He performed - WERE His Father's authentication!
Show me someone who has figured out how to herald the good news about the coming Kingdom, and you ain't seen nuthin', yet!
Hey Retro!
Just as Jesus gave authority to his disciplines, Luke 9:1-2 so he also gave authority to those who believe in him by faith. Mark 16:17.
Mark 9
38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”
39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. 40 For he who is not against us is on our side. 41 For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.
I understand where you're coming from...If you have never experienced moving in the power of the Holy Spirit, you can't testify about it.
Just as Jesus gave authority to his disciplines, Luke 9:1-2 so he also gave authority to those who believe in him by faith. Mark 16:17.
Mark 9
38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”
39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. 40 For he who is not against us is on our side. 41 For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Angelina.
Second, I will pray with the Spirit, I will pray with the understanding also!
1 Corinthians 14:12-25
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
KJV
Never underestimate the power of the Ruach haQodesh! One doesn't have to speak in tongues or perform gifts of healing or some other highly visible miracle to be filled with the Ruach! God has blessed me with a mind and with the gift of teaching and with a gift of prophecy. THAT is my calling.
However, you misunderstand if you think that I still believe that the gifts of the Spirit are not for today! I USED to believe that when I was a Baptist. Not anymore! I believe that the gifts of the Spirit - ALL the gifts - are still applicable today, but they are mostly for the unbelievers and particularly for the Jews!
On the other hand,...
1 Corinthians 14:40
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
KJV
First of all, nonsense; I don't have to be in an accident to witness the accident and testify about it!Angelina said:
Second, I will pray with the Spirit, I will pray with the understanding also!
1 Corinthians 14:12-25
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
KJV
Never underestimate the power of the Ruach haQodesh! One doesn't have to speak in tongues or perform gifts of healing or some other highly visible miracle to be filled with the Ruach! God has blessed me with a mind and with the gift of teaching and with a gift of prophecy. THAT is my calling.
However, you misunderstand if you think that I still believe that the gifts of the Spirit are not for today! I USED to believe that when I was a Baptist. Not anymore! I believe that the gifts of the Spirit - ALL the gifts - are still applicable today, but they are mostly for the unbelievers and particularly for the Jews!
On the other hand,...
1 Corinthians 14:40
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
KJV
Greetings Retrobyter,Retrobyter said:
Could you explain what the gift of prophecy is?
Specifically relating to yourself, as one who believes he is a prophet.
Thank you,
Poppin
I haven't underestimated the power of the Holy Spirit nor do I believe that one needs to speak in tongues as an indication of the Holy Spirit's presence. :huh: and please be civil while commenting in this thread, thank you!
I agree that the gifts of the Spirit are made manifest for the benefit of unbeliever's but I also believe that the gifts are also for the benefit of the Church as an indication of Gods divine presence in their lives ^_^
Shalom!!!
----------------------\
PS: Poppin,
Could you please explain what a cessationist is? - perhaps on another thread though :huh:
Thank you!
Paul outlined the proper use and exercise of spiritual gifts in the book of Corinthians and Ephesians. As in all things decency and order are a main priority. People are being saved through the gospel whether its preached by a Pentecostal, Charismatic or Baptist, Non-denominational or Catholic. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation! Jesus is the center of the gospel! He gives the Holy Spirit to all believers for the power to witness, live, preach and spread the gospel! The baptism and infilling of the Holy Ghost is a powerful gift of God to us as the Church. We are to bear fruit (exp. but not limited to LOVE) and exercise the gifts of the Holy Spirit. They work hand in hand the gospel and the signs, wonders and miracles! The mere fact that we are saved is a miracle and manifestation of God's Spirit! In keeping with the OP it is not good to belittle, condemn and ostracize a group of believers as heretical and non-Christian thus saying that the Holy Spirit has not done the work of salvation in them and blaspheming the Holy Spirit accrediting His work unto satan. I'm saved by the Blood of Jesus, Sanctified by the Word of Jesus and filled with the Spirit of Jesus! The Jews accredited Jesus' and the apostles work to demons and they were wrong! Many in the crowd believed the apostles and 120 in the upper room were drunk when the Holy Ghost fell but they were wrong! God's Holy Spirit moves the way He wants because He is Sovereign and God! The Word of God supports the work of the Holy Spirit and gifts of the Holy Ghost. Whether you believe they still exist or occur or not that is your persuasion just do not condemn those that do because you step into judgementalism and could be blaspheming the work of God in the lives of a person!
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Angelina.
Never underestimate the power of the Ruach haQodesh!
One doesn't have to speak in tongues or perform gifts of healing or some other highly visible miracle to be filled with the Ruach! h34r: God has blessed me with a mind and with the gift of teaching B) and with a gift of prophecy ^_^ :blink: :huh: . THAT is my calling.
However, you misunderstand if you think that I still believe that the gifts of the Spirit are not for today! I USED to believe that when I was a Baptist. Not anymore! I believe that the gifts of the Spirit - ALL the gifts - are still applicable today, but they are mostly for the unbelievers and particularly for the Jews!
Does that make better sense? I wasn't intending to offend you! And, I'm sorry if I did. I'll try to be more transparent.
I apologize for the misunderstanding. I sorry; I forget that people can't see you smile in a letter. (I really need to use more emoticons!) Please allow me to amend my previous statements:Angelina said:
Never underestimate the power of the Ruach haQodesh!
One doesn't have to speak in tongues or perform gifts of healing or some other highly visible miracle to be filled with the Ruach! h34r: God has blessed me with a mind and with the gift of teaching B) and with a gift of prophecy ^_^ :blink: :huh: . THAT is my calling.However, you misunderstand if you think that I still believe that the gifts of the Spirit are not for today! I USED to believe that when I was a Baptist. Not anymore!
I believe that the gifts of the Spirit - ALL the gifts - are still applicable today, but they are mostly for the unbelievers and particularly for the Jews! Does that make better sense? I wasn't intending to offend you! And, I'm sorry if I did. I'll try to be more transparent.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Poppin.
I wasn't forgetting your question, but I felt I owed Angelina an apology first. Also, the emoticons might better explain what I meant by a "gift of prophecy." I'm not claiming to be a prophet; I'm just claiming to have a "unique" revelation from God ABOUT the prophecies as written in the Bible. That is, I'm not the only one with such a revelation, but that my perspective is not very common.Poppin said:
Two things, the primary force of the Baptism or Seal of Covenant in the Spirit is that this itself is the Circumcision of the Heart.Angelina said:
Not gifts although when originally given this was true that these were manifest in such abundance Paul seems to need to ORDER them in subordinate harmony...
Secondly this Spirit comes as it will and is 'without repentance.' It came as gift the first times and this in my opinion has never changed.
Now as the Circumcision of the Heart itself, this Spirit indwelling is the very thing which identifies us as New Covenant partakers:
Deut 30
[SIZE=.75em]6 [/SIZE]And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love theLord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
As we grow this Spirit indwelling, we are closer ever to our God who comes as the Paraclete among men.
Jer 31
[SIZE=.75em]31 [/SIZE]Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
[SIZE=.75em]32 [/SIZE]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
[SIZE=.75em]33 [/SIZE]But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
So then, knowing that the manifestation of Spirit is the very Circumcision itself of the heart in Spirit is knowing the Comfort of the Paraclete. Every time you for instance cry the tears of joy when you hear of Jesus, dying for you, living for you, speaking to you, suffering for you...
...this is God reminding you that He indwells you and is IN you, giving that which not many ever will receive -- a portion of the substance of faith, even among pentecostals NEVER given to many, and never given in equal measure to any.
We grow that which we have. And are thankful for that which has been given. Know not that a small percentage ever receive this anymore? Know that even less before the turn of the previous century?
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the jump and the LEAP to do Shema. See the verse again: to love the Lord your God with all of your heart and all of your soul, that thou mayest live.
I don't know who you are talking to here but you are preaching to the choir. Your emphasis is on the fact that the gifts of the Spirit manifested in us is an indication of the presence of the Spirit signaling the new covenant believer. This so, however, the outworking of such gifts is for the "equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ." as the bible has stated. My gripe is that the Pentecostal movement seems to be using the Church as a ministry itself rather than equipping the saints for the said ministry.
. I know many people who would like to be able to minister to their friends or family but do not know how to go about this. Some Pentecostal Churches would have their members send their non Christian friends and family along to Church so this can be done but I believe that every Christian should be able to evangelize and this is not been taught. It has been left up to a few members of the body rather than all members. All members should be able to minister in the fullness and power of the Holy Spirit.
Shalom!!!
. I know many people who would like to be able to minister to their friends or family but do not know how to go about this. Some Pentecostal Churches would have their members send their non Christian friends and family along to Church so this can be done but I believe that every Christian should be able to evangelize and this is not been taught. It has been left up to a few members of the body rather than all members. All members should be able to minister in the fullness and power of the Holy Spirit.
Shalom!!!
Angelina said:
You totally missed my emphasis. I am saying that the identity OF the Baptism of the Spirit is not evangelism first, or gifts first, but engagement first.
Since the Baptism IS the Circumcision of the Heart and the dynamic of ENGAGING in Shema first, the 'equipping of the saints' is inherently done by God first and our own IDENTITY and FAITH TOGETHER.
Who teaches SHEMA among pentecostals? Rightly, as the precept was taught originally? Do we not know it is the very REASON why we needed Christ to begin with, the New Covenant to begin with? Since no man but one could ever DO it, yes?
Do we not know it is the very ESSENCE of faith among us, the spirit which makes us one as Jesus was one with his Father?
Let me tell you, teacher the thing about EVANGELISM. If you ain't excited about that which God instilled in you, then it will die, and YOU KNOW this has happened again and again to born again believers.
And when the thing instilled in you DIES so will you. Ain't no OSAS among us, neither.
Let me repeat my personal refrain. And say again I am preaching to the choir.
The Baptism of the Heart and Spirit is the Circumcision of the Heart said by God to be given among men (the desire to do Shema).
This baptism is the jump and the LEAP to do Shema. To love the Lord your God with all you have.
Now if all believers knew this 'personal refrain' and were TAUGHT this refrain, then naturally the next step would be to ask God and then each other, "What can I do next?"
You are obviously confused with my post. Pentecostals, like most Gentile believing Christians, have been grafted in at the cross. "Shema" has to do with Judaism. We are not Jewish followers of Christ.
Blessings!!!
No...I didn't, please read my post again. Btw: I do not believe in the OSAS theology.
Blessings!!!
You just said two opposite things, dear.Angelina said:You are obviously confused with my post. Pentecostals, like most Gentile believing Christians, have been grafted in at the cross. "Shema" has to do with Judaism. We are not Jewish followers of Christ.
No...I didn't, please read my post again. Btw: I do not believe in the OSAS theology.
Blessings!!!
1) you don't have to CONSIDER Shema
2) Shema was NOT my emphasis when it is the whole keeboodle to me.
Yes Shema IS my emphasis and it is KEY to our problem. See, you handily comprehend a dirth, a void in the Church and an empty place, esp. regarding evangelism. You even seemed to say that ALL must be willing and able to evangelize.
All I said was that believers 1) FORGET that what God instilled in them is MORE than a tool to live life better, an add-on app.
2) That the Baptism of Spirit is the jump and the very vaunted LEAP or desire to do Shema.
So then I will not insult you by repeating again what I've already said twice. But your statement saying you don't have to CONSIDER IT tells me you never got what I said the first or second time.
Please consider or I will have to smack your hand with that ole wood rule(r). Teach. This is what happens when you FLUNK the 18 yr old more than several times.
He ends up being 3 times your size?
Sorry, you have lost me in translation. What country do you hail from? :huh:
Yes... I was referring to members in the body of Christ, the Church - should be able to evangelize. See the above post again.
Hmmm.. :huh: is that part of the Jewish Judaic tradition? because I have never heard it being taught in the New Testament Church
Yeah, I know, it's all pretty abstract, especially to those who never got BAPTIZED in the Holy Spirit. But you my dear have no excuse not to know that the actual thing is inherently in the essence OF it...
...the jump and the LEAP to Love the Lord your God with the all of you.
Proof: those first 3000 and 5000 who received the Baptism went out and got MARTYRED with no hesitation, 11 out of 12 of the original disciples and Paul.
This is LUUUUV, like you wouldna ever see in this day, ma'ham.
Blood and guts love. Agape love to the extreme OF it. The literal love of the two who sit at the left and right hands of our Lord.
Comes back to knowing the Seal of Covenant, what it really is, yes? Not an add-on app. which God wants just for you to know He loves you.
The wherewithal to give it UP all you got to the end of your race, the Shema race which you never heard of, yet lives in your heart and you really DO KNOW what I am speaking of don't you?
Cmon now, admit it. The jump and the LEAP, yeah. The jump and the LEAP yeah in what direction, for what? Read again, my friend.
Hmmm.. :huh: is that part of the Jewish Judaic tradition? because I have never heard it being taught in the New Testament Church
Rebuke your brother and sister with fear and trembling in my absence as much as my presence, amen. I THINK that's what Paul was doin,' ma'ham.
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