Ten Reasons I Do not Believe There Will Be "an Antichrist"

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Wormwood

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Marcus,

Thanks for responding. I understand your take on this. Allow me to flush out my thoughts in a similar format.

I agree that Paul is referring to the Second Coming of Jesus.

That day will not come UNTIL

1. The rebellion takes place
2. the man of lawlessness is revealed.

Here we have a shift where Paul describes this man of lawlessness. Who is he? Paul tells us:

Who is the lawless one?

1. He is the son of destruction.
2. He is the one opposing God and is exalting himself to be worshipped as god in God's Temple.
3. He is being restrained currently to be revealed in the last time

When he is revealed, he and his signs, powers, and deceptions will be destroyed and brought to nothing by the breath of Christ's mouth.

Therefore, the point is...do not worry that you missed the Second Coming. That day has not come as long as evil prevails in the world. As long as evil and deception exist, we know the evil one has not been exposed and destroyed. I think this is the clear point here.

So, we clearly have different views on this. However, my point is that the change in verb tenses shows that Paul is describing a person (the lawless one) and is not continuing on a checklist of what must take place with this individual before Christ returns.
 

Trekson

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Hi Wormwood, I wrote the following a while ago in response to some claiming that the a/c must be moslem but it also offers my take on the a/c in general.

I don’t believe that Islam will be the vehicle of the antichrist. They will, in fact, ultimately go to war against each other. The anti in antichrist does not mean against Christ, it means instead of Christ. The antichrist’s goal will not be to destroy Israel but to take the praise and worship due to God and have the Jews worship him instead as foretold by Christ in John 5:43 - I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. Israel will believe the a/c is their prophesied Messiah since they did not accept Christ and are still looking for another.

Satan is not a creator but he does copy or mimic the things of God to deceive people. Much of his and the a/c’s time on earth will be spent duplicating as closely as possible Jesus Christ in order to convince the world that he is Christ and to convince the jews, he is their messiah. We christians have our Holy Trinity consisting of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Satan has his unholy trinity. In this unholy trinity, Satan wants to replace God, the a/c will be the acting god the son (even mimicking his death and resurrection in Rev. 13:3) and exercising the power of the Holy Spirit will be the false prophet, (compare Acts 1: 8 with Rev. 13:14). Satan will even have an equivalent archangel to Michael, his name is Abaddon or Apollyon as given in Rev. 9:11. They will excel at deceit as Matt. 24:24 points out. Only the elect, those who are born again with a knowledge of what to look for in the latter days, will be able to see through this deception.

Now in Rev. 6, we have the starting point of the seven year covenant that the Anti-Christ (a/c) will sign or agree to; that begins the 70th week as mentioned in Dan. 9:27. The gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke parallel Rev. 6 with amazing accuracy. Compare these scriptures:
False christs
Matt. 24:4-5, Mark 13:5-6, Luke 21:8, Rev. 6:1-2

This is the first seal. The rider on the white horse signifies the false religion personified by the Anti-Christ who conquers by deception. Dan. 7:20 in various trans-lations describe him as one "whose look was more stout" and possessing a "fierce countenance". Dan. 8:23 calls him a “stern-faced king and a master of intrigue“. 2 Thess, Cp.2 speaks of him as the “Man of Sin, Wicked One, Son of Perdition” and is described as “working wonders, opposing God and lawless.” In all he will be an imposing figure. There is one area in which he will differ from Christ. His spokesman, the false prophet, will come after him and will build him up, much like an athlete’s or an actor’s agent does. A type of John the Baptist but after the fact and not before. Here's something else to consider. The verse in question is Rev. 6:2 - I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest. (NIV)

I have absolutely no idea where the thought that this is the weapon called a "bow" that shoots arrows is derived from but it is not that kind of bow!!!!
From the Strong's Concordance, "5115 - toxon, from the base of 5088. a bow (appar. as the simplest fabric):-bow - 5088, tikto a strengthened form of a prim. teko, (which is used only as alt. in certain tenses) to produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc., lit. or fig.:- bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail.

As you can see, nothing in either of these definitions comes close to describing a weapon such as a bow. I think the problem comes from the way the old English used it in times past. Here is a better and I think more accurate definition.

I believe the rider is carrying a multi-colored fabric banner and John was using the word bow as a shortened version of the word rainbow. According to the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, Greek, 2463 - iris, as a symb. of the female messenger of the pagan deities, a rainbow. Now after God destroyed the earth with a flood He put His "bow" in the sky as a promise that He would never destroy the earth by water again. The word "bow" in the Strong's, Hebrew, 7198, as well as referencing a literal bow, the weapon, also uses iris. 7198 takes us to a root word in 7185 and one of the definitions is to be cruel or be fiercer, make grievous. Another modern day definition could also des-cribe a rainbow as "an illusory hope", as in "chasing rainbows". In my dictionary there are two interesting definitions of the word "iris". One is "a rainbow or rainbow like display of colors" and the other is "the goddess of the rainbow and messenger of the gods".

Now, starting with this more realistic look at this passage let me show you how I interpret it. The first rider is Anti-Christ and he comes carrying the banner of "peace and safety" (temporary and illusory) and the multi-colored fabric or "bow" represents the unity he brings to the world, and the peace he will bring to Israel, probably at a time when they are facing certain annihilation. The crown represents his leadership and he comes conquering by deception, not war.

For the Jews to accept him as their Messiah, there are some things that will need to fall into place. He will need to prove himself as coming from the line of David and thus will be of Jewish descent. He will likely come from the tribe of Dan as suggested in Jer. 8:16, and that is why Dan is not listed as one of the tribes in Rev. 7. Israel would never accept an Islamic as Messiah. He will probably be Turkish in nationality via Rev. 2:13 as that is the area where Pergamum was.

When he comes against the woman in Rev. 12, he is not coming against all of Israel but only those whose eyes are opened at the abomination of desolation and have now become believing Israel and reject him as Messiah and turn to Christ per Zech. 12:10. They will most likely include the 144,000 of Rev. 7.

Some confusion undoubtedly arises from misinterpreting the sequence of Ez. 37 & 38. As Daniel does in chapter 9 where he goes from speaking of the Messiah and then immediately leaps ahead thousands of years to speak of the a/c, Ezekiel does the same thing. Chapter 37 has pre-millennial significance but chapter 38 has post millennial significance and is the same prophecy that is repeated in Rev. 20:8. These are the only two places where Gog and Magog are mentioned together.

In Rev. 16:13-14 - Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. The three frogs go to the kings of the East (China and her allies), North (Russia and her allies) and South (the Moslem nations). The a/c is more than likely allied with an American/European confederation.

Another point I’d like to mention is that some people give more credence to a Quran type document then is deserved. The fact is, regardless of how similar any other religious “prophetic” document is, if it is not scripture it shouldn’t be given any consideration whatsoever. If one is going to do that then you might as well consider the prophecies of Nostradamus to be a “lost” part of the bible.

So to sum up, the a/c will be Jewish, not Islamic.
He will fight against the Moslems as protector of Israel, not with them against Israel. His cohort, the false prophet could possibly be a pope and the a/c’s goal is not to destroy the church or Israel but to steal the worship that should be God’s; unto himself and thus in a manner of speaking, spit in God’s eye.
 

RANDOR

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I'm sure many of you have seen this.....but hey...maybe there is some who haven't...all I can say....according to the spirit....there is something not right with this dude.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=rhnQ_ESpvuo
 

Wormwood

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Trek,

All I can say is that this type of piecemeal interpretation is fraught with problems. You are lacing passages that have entirely different concepts and contexts together to form an entirely new idea that is foreign to what the individual passages teach on their own.

In terms of the Greek words...

antichrist as it is used by 1 and 2 John refers to opposing Christ, not substituting Christ. If you want to believe the Antichrist figure is a false Christ, that is fine. But this is not how John uses the word in his epistles.

toxon means bow. The context makes it pretty clear that the rider is bent on conquest. He is on a war horse with a bow in his hand and is told to make war. Nothing here indicates a rainbow banner. Seems like you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole on that one.


5115. τόξον tóxon; gen. tóxou, neut. noun. A bow for shooting arrows (Rev. 6:2; Sept.: Gen. 27:3; Ps. 7:13).

τόξον, ου, τό (Hom.+; ins, pap, LXX; En; PsSol 17:33; TestAbr B 14 p. 118, 22 [Stone p. 84]; TestJud; SibOr 3, 730; Jos., Ant. 1, 103; Ar. 11, 1) the bow as an archer’s weapon (Hecataeus: 264 Fgm. 21, 203 Jac. [in Jos., C. Ap. 1, 203]; TestJud 3:3; 7:5; 9:3)

5534 τόξον (toxon), ου (ou), τό (to): n.neu.; ≡ DBLHebr 8008; Str 5115—LN 6.37 a bow, as in a bow and arrow (Rev 6:2+)

τόξον, ου, τό bow, an instrument for launching arrows (RV 6.2)
Randor,

Thanks for illustrating my point. The Antichrist concept leads to all kinds of false predictions, hysteria and nonsense. A lot of Christians deny the Word of God and its call to pray for and be subject to governmental leaders by making the excuse that such leaders are really evil and potentially the Antichrist. It is wicked and tragic.
 

Trekson

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Hi Wormwood, Your words:"antichrist as it is used by 1 and 2 John refers to opposing Christ, not substituting Christ. If you want to believe the Antichrist figure is a false Christ, that is fine. But this is not how John uses the word in his epistles."

Here's how my Strong's words it: Antichristos Gr500 - an opponent of the Messiah, antichrist from 473 & 5547 - Gr473 (anti) - opposite, i.e. instead or because of...Often used in composition to denote contrast, requital, substitution, correspondence, etc. Imo, when studying and asking the Holy Spirit for guidance, the correct interpretation isn't necessarily the first one listed. They are just the translators opinion of how to translate it. I believe it wise to consider all aspects of a given word and decide with God's help which is the correct interpretation.

Regarding the word "bow", Here's how my Strong's words it: Toxon - Gr5115 - from the base of 5088, a bow (appar. as the simplest fabric):- bow, Gr5088 - Tikto - to produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc.) lit. or fig. bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail.

Your words:"The context makes it pretty clear that the rider is bent on conquest. He is on a war horse with a bow in his hand and is told to make war". He isn't, as far as the KJ is concerned, told to make war, He is told to conquer and I believe he will at first conquer by deception.

Dan. 11:23 - "And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people."
Dan. 11:32 - "And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt ( deceive) by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits."
Rev. 20:3 - "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

I believe all these descriptions are of the Anti-Christ: the prince that shall come, the king of the North, the man of sin, the son of perdition, that Wicked, antichrist, rider of the white horse, Dragon, Beast out of the sea, the eighth king. There might be more but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Your words: "You are lacing passages that have entirely different concepts and contexts together to form an entirely new idea that is foreign to what the individual passages teach on their own."

Respectfully, it is your opinion that they are different concepts and contexts. I again, respectfully disagree.
 

shturt678s

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Thank you folks for caring again!

Rev.6:2 has been one of my favorites and only have a humble opinion, ie, The Word of God (Scriptures) rides forth conquering by its own power against the enemies of the Lamb.

Old Jack's opinion,

BTW opinion #2 (IIThess.2:4) is where the Antichrist's propaganda (authority & power) usurps the Holy Spirit's position in men's hearts since 70 A.D. in light of Lk.21:24).
 

Wormwood

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Trek,

Sorry for the slow reply.

First, you need to understand that words are defined by their contexts. In English, a word can mean many things. For instance, I can say, "I received a good grade on a test." Or I can say, "You need a ramp with a very gradual grade in order to meet city codes." The word "grade" carries different meanings based on the context (as do thousands of other words). Just because a word CAN mean something, doesn't mean it always carries that meaning. The context determines the meaning of the word. Clearly, in 1 John, the word means "against Christ." There is nothing in this context to suggest that these are false Christs. Rather. John defines these people as opposing and denying Christ. Thus, "antichrist" is defined as those who oppose/deny Christ in the only context we find the word in the NT.

Second, its fine that you believe that about that text in Revelation. Perhaps you are right. However, I think there is a reason that pretty much every translation says the rider has a bow..not a rainbow or seed. Most lexicons define toxon as "bow" (as I showed above). You should be cautious about changing the meanings of verses by using Strong's Greek dictionary. Unless you are familiar with Greek, it is a bad idea to use a dictionary to change words and meanings because of other definitions you come across. This is often not how Greek works. Many times, Greek words carry certain meanings based on how they are used in a sentence. If you are not familiar with this, you will be making arguments that a word could also mean something else...when in reality it cannot. The way the word is used in the sentence may determine precisely how it should be interpreted. I suggest you trust the translators and base your understanding on their scholarly translations. Otherwise you will be in danger of misrepresenting verses and teaching false ideas due to your own mishandling of the language.
 

shturt678s

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Wormwood said:
Trek,

Sorry for the slow reply.

First, you need to understand that words are defined by their contexts. In English, a word can mean many things. For instance, I can say, "I received a good grade on a test." Or I can say, "You need a ramp with a very gradual grade in order to meet city codes." The word "grade" carries different meanings based on the context (as do thousands of other words). Just because a word CAN mean something, doesn't mean it always carries that meaning. The context determines the meaning of the word. Clearly, in 1 John, the word means "against Christ." There is nothing in this context to suggest that these are false Christs. Rather. John defines these people as opposing and denying Christ. Thus, "antichrist" is defined as those who oppose/deny Christ in the only context we find the word in the NT.

Second, its fine that you believe that about that text in Revelation. Perhaps you are right. However, I think there is a reason that pretty much every translation says the rider has a bow..not a rainbow or seed. Most lexicons define toxon as "bow" (as I showed above). You should be cautious about changing the meanings of verses by using Strong's Greek dictionary. Unless you are familiar with Greek, it is a bad idea to use a dictionary to change words and meanings because of other definitions you come across. This is often not how Greek works. Many times, Greek words carry certain meanings based on how they are used in a sentence. If you are not familiar with this, you will be making arguments that a word could also mean something else...when in reality it cannot. The way the word is used in the sentence may determine precisely how it should be interpreted. I suggest you trust the translators and base your understanding on their scholarly translations. Otherwise you will be in danger of misrepresenting verses and teaching false ideas due to your own mishandling of the language.
Thank you for caring again!

I always do my best to agree to agree, ie, Antichrist in IJn.2:18 is "the one opposing himself," in IIThess.2:4 or "against" agreeing to agree my brother.

Regarding the signified contextual composite of Rev.6:2 we'll will still have to agree to disagree of course. First and foremost, I only have an opinion hopefully in the trthful direction in these difficult areas.

Thank you again,

Old Jack
 

Trekson

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Hi Wormwood, Your words:"Clearly, in 1 John, the word means "against Christ." There is nothing in this context to suggest that these are false Christs. Rather. John defines these people as opposing and denying Christ. Thus, "antichrist" is defined as those who oppose/deny Christ in the only context we find the word in the NT."

2 John 7 - "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

Here within the context, the word "deceiver" is used as I tried to explain in post #25. How do they deceive? They confess that Christ is not come in the flesh! That doesn't imply opposing just a refusal to believe.

In 1 John 2:18 we have this statement:"...whereby we know that it is the last time." According to my research materials they place the time of authorship of 1 John around a.d. 85. They also place the authorship of Matthew between a.d. 58-68. Where would John get the idea that the presence of antichrists would signify the last "time". Perhaps by reading Matthew's account which we know as Matt. 24:24 - "For there shall arise false Christs, (Gr5580 - spurious Messiahs) and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

1 John 2:22 - "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

The word "denieth" according to Strong's Gr720, the main def. is "to contradict", disavow, reject, abnegate (renunciate), deny, refuse. This all seems to fit the scenario I suggest quite nicely. The a/c will probably declare something like "Christ was not the Messiah, do you knowm how many millions of people have been killed because of his name??! No, I am the Messiah and I come to bring unity not division..."

If you're really stuck on the term "oppose" which I don't believe the context of 1 John implies, than consider it as the a/c "opposing" the idea that Christ was the Son of God and the Messiah and will declare that he is instead.

Let's not forget this verse:"2 Thess. 2:11 - "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

Could the lie be... that the a/c is the true Messiah?
 

Wormwood

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Thanks for the response Trekson.

Yes, I believe that denying Jesus is the Christ is the same as opposing him. Those who are not for him are against (anti) him. However, this is not the same as false Christ's as many propose antichrist to mean.

“For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.” (Philippians 3:18–19, ESV)
Its possible John is getting some of his ideas from Matthew. Its also just as possible that John is getting his ideas from the author of Hebrews, Joel, Micah, Peter, or Paul (cf. Hebrews 1:2; Joel 2:28; Micah 4:1; 2 Peter 3:3; 1 Tim. 4:1). In any event, if he was drawing from that text in Matthew, then he would likely have described antichrists to be false Christs rather than those who merely deny Jesus to be the Christ. He doesnt say they deny Christ in order to make themselves out to be Christ. If that were the case, I think he would have said as much. Historical evidence shows Gnostic groups (likely the opponents here) were not setting themselves up as Christs at all. I think you are inferring too much here.

No, I think the "lie" is as simple as rejecting the Lordship of Jesus in order to take "pleasure in unrighteousness." I think Romans 1:18, John 3:19-20, 2 Peter 2:19, etc. confirm this idea. This has nothing to do with some future figure or time...but present falsehoods that Christians of that day were facing and that we are still facing today. People would rather live for their own pleasures rather than submit themselves to a holy God. No Antichrist is necessary to lead people into that kind of falsehood....people have been doing it on their own for two thousand years.
 

shturt678s

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Trekson said:
Hi Wormwood, Your words:"Clearly, in 1 John, the word means "against Christ." There is nothing in this context to suggest that these are false Christs. Rather. John defines these people as opposing and denying Christ. Thus, "antichrist" is defined as those who oppose/deny Christ in the only context we find the word in the NT."

2 John 7 - "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

Here within the context, the word "deceiver" is used as I tried to explain in post #25. How do they deceive? They confess that Christ is not come in the flesh! That doesn't imply opposing just a refusal to believe.

In 1 John 2:18 we have this statement:"...whereby we know that it is the last time." According to my research materials they place the time of authorship of 1 John around a.d. 85. They also place the authorship of Matthew between a.d. 58-68. Where would John get the idea that the presence of antichrists would signify the last "time". Perhaps by reading Matthew's account which we know as Matt. 24:24 - "For there shall arise false Christs, (Gr5580 - spurious Messiahs) and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

1 John 2:22 - "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

The word "denieth" according to Strong's Gr720, the main def. is "to contradict", disavow, reject, abnegate (renunciate), deny, refuse. This all seems to fit the scenario I suggest quite nicely. The a/c will probably declare something like "Christ was not the Messiah, do you knowm how many millions of people have been killed because of his name??! No, I am the Messiah and I come to bring unity not division..."

If you're really stuck on the term "oppose" which I don't believe the context of 1 John implies, than consider it as the a/c "opposing" the idea that Christ was the Son of God and the Messiah and will declare that he is instead.

Let's not forget this verse:"2 Thess. 2:11 - "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

Could the lie be... that the a/c is the true Messiah?
Thank you for caring again!

Only s head's up regarding IJn.2:22, contextually is the small antichrist, and not the Antichrist.

Paul furnishes us a full description of the Antichrist in IIThess.2 of course.

Old Jack's opinion
Wormwood said:
Thanks for the response Trekson.

Yes, I believe that denying Jesus is the Christ is the same as opposing him. Those who are not for him are against (anti) him. However, this is not the same as false Christ's as many propose antichrist to mean.


Its possible John is getting some of his ideas from Matthew. Its also just as possible that John is getting his ideas from the author of Hebrews, Joel, Micah, Peter, or Paul (cf. Hebrews 1:2; Joel 2:28; Micah 4:1; 2 Peter 3:3; 1 Tim. 4:1). In any event, if he was drawing from that text in Matthew, then he would likely have described antichrists to be false Christs rather than those who merely deny Jesus to be the Christ. He doesnt say they deny Christ in order to make themselves out to be Christ. If that were the case, I think he would have said as much. Historical evidence shows Gnostic groups (likely the opelievbponents here) were not setting themselves up as Christs at all. I think you are inferring too much here.

No, I think the "lie" is as simple as rejecting the Lordship of Jesus in order to take "pleasure in unrighteousness." I think Romans 1:18, John 3:19-20, 2 Peter 2:19, etc. confirm this idea. This has nothing to do with some future figure or time...but present falsehoods that Christians of that day were facing and that we are still facing today. People would rather live for their own pleasures rather than submit themselves to a holy God. No Antichrist is necessary to lead people into that kind of falsehood....people have been doing it on their own for two thousand years.
Thank you for caring again!

Only something to think about, ie, if one confronts the truth not having an agape for that truth (IIThess.2:10b,) someone is going to believe a lie for sure (IIThess.2:11, 12).

Old Jack's opinion
 

Dani

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Wormwood said:
I know I am one of the few who think the whole Antichrist concept is unbiblical. However, for the sake of discussion, let me post ten reasons why I think this concept needs to be rejected.

10. The books most often cited to validate the Antichrist concept are Daniel, 2 Thessalonians, and Revelation. None of these books use the term, Antichrist. It is only used in John's epistles and it is a plural term that encapsulates present day false teachers, not a future demonic figure.
9. The entire concept of an Antichrist only leads to Christians foolishly attempting to label people as the Antichrist. This is judgmental and unchristian.
8. Attempting to view images in Revelation as depictions of this Antichrist figure displays an ignorance about the historical setting of this book and how it would have been understood by early readers.
7. The entire theology of the Antichrist is built on very challenging texts. There is not one straight-forward teaching in the NT about a solitary Antichrist figure for the end times.
6. Jesus declares that the "abomination which causes desolation" refers to the destruction of the Temple...likely because of the rejection of Christ and his perfect sacrifice in favor of animal sacrifices (cf. Matt. 23:38; Lk. 13:35; Lk. 23:28-29; Heb. 10:28-29; Dan. 9:26-27).
5. The "mark of the Beast" on the hand and forehead is spiritual just as is the seal of the Holy Spirit on the foreheads of believers in Revelation (cf. Rev. 7:3; 9:4). It has nothing to do with allegiance to an end times figure. This would mean nothing to the churches to whom Revelation was written.
4. The emphasis of Daniel's 70 weeks is not the end of the world, but to "finish transgression, put and end to sin and atone for iniquity." This happened at the cross and Daniels weeks, like his dreams and visions, point to the coming of the Savior, not the coming of an Antichrist.
3. The context of 2 Thessalonians 2 is encouraging believers that they have not missed the Second Coming (cf. 2 Thess. 2:1-2). Discussion about a mysterious and unknown Antichrist figure makes no sense in this context. It would only cause more confusion and worry, not less.
2. The revelation and destruction of "the lawless one" results in the absolution of all evil. The idea is that as long as evil is in the world, then we know Christ has not returned. When Christ returns, he will reveal the evil one and bring an end to his work and the evil in the world once and for all.
1. The verbs "will exalt" and "will set himself up" in 2 Thessalonians are not actually future tense in the Greek. This is misleading in the NIV. They are participles which indicate that the man of lawlessness is currently and actively exalting himself as God and setting himself up in the temple to be worshipped as God. These are present happenings (in the first century as well as today) that will be brought to an end when Christ returns. This is not a future event of a future Antichrist, but a present work Satan in the world.
Good post I agree.

But I think there may be a bit more to it. For example, the beast is a kingdom, and the image of the beast to me represents the image of that kingdom, and the image of the beast which is given a voice to speak, and can even work miracles causing fire to come down from the sky in the site of all men, seems to me like the television (complete with two horns - aerials) and the internet. Incidentally, the number 666 = WWW in ancient Hebrew.

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_One/Aleph-Bet/Vav/vav.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waw_(letter)

Also, the first apple computer (complete with the bitten fruit, and the pun on byte) sold for $666.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_computer

Even Google Chromes new logo looks like a 666.

http://beforeitsnews.com/spies-and-intelligence/2013/12/satanic-666-google-chrome-spy-grid-2445722.html

And it is linked in with buying and selling.

The mark of the beast on the forehead and, or, on the right hand, has to be spiritual. It was in the old testament, the commandments of God were to be on the right hand and on the forehead, (Deut 11:13-22, and Deut 6:6-7)

And finally, the man of sin being in the temple of God - some future temple? The body is the temple. 'What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of God?', said Paul.
Also I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, I have not read the entire thread, but "He" and "His" is not in the Greek it is "It", which makes more sense, seeing it is a kingdom, and an image of that kingdom.

http://biblehub.com/text/revelation/13-12.htm
 

shturt678s

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Excellent thread and posters, thank you for caring!

Only a humble head's up, viz. Rev.13:18 & IIThess.2;4: Deceit produces the image and certainly makes it look wonderfully attractive. Men themselves erect it of course. `Where but in their own minds, and hearts (BTW Jn.2:19, "destroy this Sanctuary," NOT irron, "Temple"). where it breaths and speaks and persuades them to let no one live who does not likewise accept and honor this image.

For those that look at the former as fallacious to insane, decades ago brought this forward and was viewed by many as a credible view.

Old Jack only humbly trying to help.
 

Trekson

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Hi Dani, Your words:" The mark of the beast on the forehead and, or, on the right hand, has to be spiritual. It was in the old testament, the commandments of God were to be on the right hand and on the forehead, (Deut 11:13-22, and Deut 6:6-7)

No, it doesn't have to be spiritual. They literally wore them on their right hand or forehead.

From an intenet Q & A site: "They are called "tefillin" (mentioned in the Torah as "totafos", and often seen in English translations as "frontlets"). They contain parchments with verses from the Torah. During the weekday morning service, one of the boxes (the "Hand t'filluh") is placed upon the
left arm so that it rests against the heart, and the suspended leather strap is wound around the left hand, and around the middle finger of
that hand. The other box (the "Head t'filluh") is placed upon the head, above the forehead, so as to rest upon the cerebrum. This is in
fulfillment of the Torah commandments. If you go to a traditional shul and lack tefillin, you can be sure that someone will lend you his and
assist you in fulfilling this mitzvah. Note that the actual commandment is to wear them anytime, all the time. That is, anytime a day for a moment to fullfill the obligation, and all the time to fullfill the non-obligatory commandment. The rabbis forbade wearing them at nightime (except under very specific circumstances) so they must be worn during the day only. Traditionally, we consider wearing them for prayers important, though
that should not be confused with the actual commandment. Hence, their primary use during services.

The two boxes each contain four sections of the Torah inscribed on
parchment. These passages cite:
1. The Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4-9) - pronouncing the Unity of The One
G-d.
2. Vehayah (Deuteronomy 11:13-21) - expressing G-d's assurance to us
of reward that will follow our observance of the Torah's precepts,
and warning of retribution for disobedience to them.


And finally, the man of sin being in the temple of God - some future temple? The body is the temple. 'What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of God?', said Paul."

Yes, our bodies are the temple of the HS but that doesn't mean their won't be a future temple. We know Christ says during the millennium he will reign from a temple. This is just another example of why believers are no longer under the law. This particular example (1 Co. 6:19) isn't a good one because the previous vs. (18) is speaking of fornication being the ONLY sin against our body as the temple. All other sins are "outside" the body.

Hi Wormwood, Your words: "No, I think the "lie" is as simple as rejecting the Lordship of Jesus in order to take "pleasure in unrighteousness." I think Romans 1:18, John 3:19-20, 2 Peter 2:19, etc. confirm this idea. This has nothing to do with some future figure or time...but present falsehoods that Christians of that day were facing and that we are still facing today. People would rather live for their own pleasures rather than submit themselves to a holy God. No Antichrist is necessary to lead people into that kind of falsehood....people have been doing it on their own for two thousand years."

I don't think it's that simple. People have been taking "pleasure in unrighteousness" ever since the fall. To limit that to "if you sin, you're anti-christ," just doesn't make sense. What about those who haven't heard of Christ? How can they be against that of which they have no knowledge? I believe that 'taking the mark" will be an informed choice. People will choose to trust in man instead of God. It won't be an accidental oopsie! It will literally be a Joshua moment. Jos. 24:15 - "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." I believe they will "knowingly" be against Christ as an imposter and "for" the a/c who they will believe is the "real deal".

Is there any way to separate posts when you're doing them in a short duration. I went out of my way to comment on another section and came back to avoid this! Obviously, it didn't work!
 

Dan57

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There has always been an anti-Christ, he just won't be brought to full fruition until the last days.
 

Enquirer

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[SIZE=14pt]My ten reasons that there will be an Antichrist ... contrasting your ten reasons.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]10) Your quote, “[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]The books most often cited to validate the Antichrist concept are Daniel, 2 Thessalonians, and Revelation. None of [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]these books use the term, Antichrist. It is only used in John's epistles and it is a plural term that encapsulates present day false teachers, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]not a future demonic figure.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Daniel, 2 Thessalonians and Revelation don’t have to use the term “Antichrist” to validate the reality of the Antichrist.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]That is simply a term we Christians use today to describe the person mentioned in those books that is still to come.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]John uses it to describe those “antichrist” like the false teachers but that does not mean that the specific person alluded to in those books [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]isn’t real.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Here are some verses that DO mention a specific person.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]“And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself[/SIZE] above every god, and shall speak
astonishing things against
the God of gods. [SIZE=medium]He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]He shall pay no attention to the gods of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women. He[/SIZE] shall not pay attention
to any other god, for
[SIZE=medium]he shall magnify himself above all[/SIZE]. (Daniel 11:36 -37)

[SIZE=medium]Here Daniel is speaking of the antichrist and please note he is not talking about a concept or of many people as in “antichrists”, but of [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]one single person.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Paul echoes Daniel 11:37 in 2 Thess 2:4,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium] who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he[/SIZE] takes [SIZE=medium]his [/SIZE]seat in the temple of God,
proclaiming [SIZE=medium]himself to be God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]So it is NOT only John who speaks about the Antichrist but Paul as well and it NOT plural.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]9) Your quote, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]“The entire concept of an Antichrist only leads to Christians foolishly attempting to label people as the Antichrist. This is [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]judgmental and unchristian”.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Yes, it is foolish to label people as the Antichrist and is judgemental and unchristian, but that is NOT a valid reason to dismiss the concept [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]of the person called Antichrist.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]8) Your quote, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]“Attempting to view images in Revelation as depictions of this Antichrist figure displays an ignorance about the historical [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]setting of this book and how it would have been understood by early readers.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Rev 19:20 says,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]This event takes place AFTER the judgements of God have been (past tense) poured out on the earth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Have these events taken place ?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]No, not yet, therefore, it is talking about the future.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Therefore, no Christian or otherwise could have “historically” understood this event in any “historical setting” of their day.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Also, please note that this is talking about two people not a concept, political or religious system or of antichrists, but TWO people who [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]were thrown into the lake of fire.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]And these events take place just before the angel throws the devil into the bottomless pit in Rev chapter 20.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]This is futuristic.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Also by saying and implying that the people of that day could put this in their “historical” setting only is to deny the prophetic. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]7) Your quote, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]“The entire theology of the Antichrist is built on very challenging texts. There is not one straight-forward teaching in the NT [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]about a solitary Antichrist figure for the end times.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Not true at all, none of the texts I have quoted are challenging and they are very straightforward.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Paul is very clear that this figure will exist and so does Daniel and John.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Read the Scriptures I have quoted.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]6) Your quote, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]“Jesus declares that the "abomination which causes desolation" refers to the destruction of the Temple...likely because [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]of the rejection of Christ and his perfect sacrifice in favor of animal sacrifices (cf. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Matt. 23:38[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]; [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Lk. 13:35[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]; [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Lk. 23:28-29[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]; [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Heb. 10:28-29[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]; [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Dan. 9:26-27[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]).”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Wrong, Jesus is NOT talking about the destruction of the temple.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]He is quoting Daniel,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]"And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath [/SIZE]
be poured out upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27)

[SIZE=12pt]A person shall cause the sacrifices to cease.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]"And forces shall stand on his part, and they shall profane the sanctuary, even the fortress, and shall take away the continual burnt-offering, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]and they shall set up the abomination that maketh desolate.[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]" (Daniel 11:31)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]"And from the time that the continual burnt-offering shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]thousand and two hundred and ninety days." [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Daniel 12:11)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The abomination makes desolate, that is, the abomination the person spoken of in Daniel 9:27 “shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease”.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Why will he do this, why will he stop the sacrifices ?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Simple because he will declare that he is God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he[/SIZE] takes [SIZE=medium]his [/SIZE]seat in the temple of God, proclaiming
[SIZE=medium]himself to be God.[/SIZE] (2 Thess 2:4)

[SIZE=medium]This has got nothing to do with rejecting Christ in favour of animal sacrifices, this is talking about STOPPING the animal sacrifices.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Which implies that the temple will be rebuilt and the Jews will again begin to offer sacrifices which will be stopped by the “Abomination” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]that causes the place to be desolate of priests and their sacrifices.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]5) Your quote, “The "mark of the Beast" on the hand and forehead is spiritual just as is the seal of the Holy Spirit on the foreheads of [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]believers in Revelation (cf. Rev. 7:3[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]; [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]9:4[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]). It has nothing to do with allegiance to an end times figure. This would mean nothing [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]to the churches to whom Revelation was written.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Wrong again, this is not spiritual, because how can a “spiritual” mark prevent people from buying and selling.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] (Rev 13:16 -17)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Who says I don’t have the mark if it is spiritual, how can they know, they’re just guessing ?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]No, THEY DO KNOW, because it will be evident.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Again you are denying the prophetic as well by implying that the early believers could identify it “historically”.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]4) Your quote, “[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]The emphasis of Daniel's 70 weeks is not the end of the world, but to "finish transgression, put an end to sin and atone[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]for iniquity." This happened at the cross and Daniels weeks, like his dreams and visions, point to the coming of the Savior, not the coming [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]of an Antichrist.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]No, sorry that is not true.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Let’s check Daniels “70 weeks” again.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]"SEVENTY WEEKS are determined upon Thy People [/SIZE][SIZE=medium](Daniel's people the Jews)[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] and upon the Holy City[/SIZE] (Jerusalem), to [SIZE=medium]finish [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]the [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity[/SIZE], and to [SIZE=medium]bring in everlasting righteousness[/SIZE],
and to [SIZE=medium]seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the 'MESSIAH THE [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]PRINCE' shall be SEVEN WEEKS[/SIZE], and [SIZE=medium]THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS[/SIZE]: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in [SIZE=medium]troublous [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]times.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]And after THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS shall [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]MESSIAH BE CUT OFF[/SIZE], but not for Himself: and the [SIZE=medium]people[/SIZE] (Roman) of the [SIZE=medium]PRINCE THAT [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]SHALL COME (Antichrist)[/SIZE] shall destroy the City and the Sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be [SIZE=medium]with a flood, and unto the end of the war [/SIZE]
desolations are determined.
And he (Antichrist) shall confirm the Covenant with many for [SIZE=medium]ONE WEEK (the last or Seventieth Week): and in the midst of THE WEEK he (the [/SIZE]
Antichrist) shall cause the Sacrifice and the oblations to cease, and for the [SIZE=medium]overspreading of abominations (the Abomination of Desolation spoken [/SIZE]
of by Christ. Matt. 24:15) he shall make it [SIZE=medium]desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."[/SIZE] Dan. 9:24-27.

[SIZE=medium]Here Daniel is receiving the prophetic word and let it be noted that Messiah (Jesus) is cut off DURING the 70 weeks, NOT at the end of the 70 weeks.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=11pt]PRINCE," shall be 7 WEEKS, and THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS, or 69 WEEKS, or, if 1 WEEK is equal to 7 YEARS, 7 x 69 or 483 YEARS. [/SIZE]
Now Jesus, as "MESSIAH THE PRINCE," rode in triumph into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, April 2, A. D. 30. The difference in time between
B. C. 445 and A. D. 30 is 475 years, but, as we have seen, 69 WEEKS equal 483 years, a difference of 8 years. How are we to explain this difference?
[SIZE=11pt]The 475 years between B. C. 445 and A. D. 30, are Julian or Astronomical years of 365¼ days each, but when we reduce them to Calendar years of 360 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]days each, the year used in the Scriptures, we find that we have exactly 483 years of 360 days each. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]This proves that there was no break between the "First" and "Second" Periods of the "Seventy Weeks," and that the prophecy that there should [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]be 69 WEEKS to the coming of "MESSIAH THE PRINCE" was literally fulfilled. Now as 69 WEEKS of Daniel's "SEVENTY WEEKS" have already [/SIZE]
expired, and all that was prophesied to occur during those "SEVENTY WEEKS" has not yet been fulfilled, it stands to reason that the things
unfulfilled are still future, and must be fulfilled in the remaining "ONE WEEK," and that that "ONE WEEK" shall be "SEVEN YEARS" long, for it
must be of the same length as the other "WEEKS."

[SIZE=11pt]This then gives us the length of time of the reign of the "PRINCE THAT SHALL COME" (Antichrist), who we are told in verse 27 (Dan. 9:27) shall [/SIZE]
make a Covenant with the Jews for "ONE WEEK" (7 years), the last or "SEVENTIETH WEEK," and that in the "Middle" of the WEEK he[SIZE=medium] shall break [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]the Covenant and [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]cause the "sacrifice and oblation" that the Jews will have restored, to cease, and then the "overspreading of abominations that maketh [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]desolate," shall continue until the end of the WEEK. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]As this is just what is foretold will occur during the reign of Antichrist (2. Thess. 2:3-4) we see that the "Period" between Rev. 6:1 and Rev. 19:21, that we [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]are now about to study, is the "Third Period" of ONE WEEK, of Daniel's "SEVENTY WEEKS" and that it is to last SEVEN YEARS. From this we see [/SIZE]
that while there was no "Time Space" between the "First" and "Second" Periods of the "Seventy Weeks," there is a "Time Space" between the
"Second" and "Third" Periods or the 69th and 70th Week, of already (A. D. 1919) 1889 years, or the present Church Age. This was hidden so the
Church should not fail to watch.


05100.jpg




[SIZE=11pt]3) Your quote, [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]“The context of 2 Thessalonians 2 is encouraging believers that they have not missed the Second Coming (cf. 2 Thess. 2:1-2[/SIZE]).
Discussion about a mysterious and unknown Antichrist figure makes no sense in this context. It would only cause more confusion and worry,
not less.

[SIZE=11pt]You are correct in stating that Paul did not want believers to think that they missed the 2nd Coming but you are wrong to say that “discussion about [/SIZE]
a mysterious and unknown Antichrist figure makes no sense in this context”.

[SIZE=11pt]Because in the very next two verses he does EXACTLY THAT and makes it part of the context, [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]himself to be God. ([/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]2 Thess 2:3 - 4)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]2) Your quote, [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]“The revelation and destruction of "the lawless one" results in the absolution of all evil. The idea is that as long as evil is in the world, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]then we know Christ has not returned. When Christ returns, he will reveal the evil one and bring an end to his work and the evil in the world once and for all. “[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Yes and no, the revelation of the “lawless one” and his destruction does bring an end to evil but ONLY for a limited time.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]It is NOT the absolution of all evil as you say.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Because satan is cast into the bottomless pit for a 1000 yrs and then he is released and in a final battle at Jerusalem he is overthrown for good and then[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]God opens the books and judges humanity and then satan is cast into the lake of fire and then God sets up a new heaven and a new earth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]This is the end of all evil in the world.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] (Rev 20: 1 – 3)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt](Rev 20:7 – 12)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Then Rev 21 and on speaks about God setting up the new heaven and earth with no devil or evil in sight.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]1) Your quote, [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]“The verbs "will exalt" and "will set himself up" in 2 Thessalonians are not actually future tense in the Greek. This is misleading in the NIV. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]They are participles which indicate that the man of lawlessness is currently [/SIZE]and actively exalting himself as God and setting himself up in the temple to
be worshipped as God. These are present happenings (in the first century as well as today) that will be brought to an end when Christ returns. This
is not a future event of a future Antichrist, but a present work Satan in the world. “

[SIZE=11pt]Whether or not they are future tenses or not makes no difference whatsoever, this does not alter the fact that the Antichrist IS FUTURISTIC in his arrival.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]And when he does arrive it will be present tense.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Yes there are many “antichrists” on earth today but none of them are the “lawless one” specifically.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Point 4 illustration and quote taken from “Sacred-texts”.[/SIZE]
 

Wormwood

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Hey Enquirer,

Thanks for your response. Here are my thoughts on your points you presented:

10) Most would argue that Daniel is referring to Antiochus Ephiphanes IV in that prophecy. If there is an ongoing fulfillment of that passage, it is based purely on speculation. Its just as possible that the greater fulfillment (if there is one) of Daniel's prophecy is that it is referring to Satan (which is what I think 2 Thess. is clearly referring to). See my comments on 2 Thess. 2 above). It's a long shot to say that this text is definitive proof that there will be an Antichrist (imho).

9) I think it is only natural for people to speculate on an Antichrist if the Scriptures warned of such a coming individual. Why else would Scripture warn about it if not to cause people to try to identify the figure during their time? This is a reason why I don't think Scripture teaches the concept.

8) I disagree on your chronological approach to Revelation. I have written on this concept as well. Revelation should no more be read chronologically than Daniels different visions should be seen as following each other chronologically. I think Revelation is clearly repetitive...it is evident since we see final judgment take place five times in Revelation. Yes, two beings are thrown in the lake of fire. The beast is pretty much identical to Daniel's beast, which most would agree is the Roman empire. Why should we think this is now an individual rather than a nation/world power? We also see a prostitute drinking a cup of the saints blood. Do you see this as a specific individual as well?

7) I am familiar with the passages. I challenge you to pick up 5 different commentaries on these passages and see how many of them agree. Church history has been filled with a wide range of views on these passages...which speak both to their complexity and potential symbolism. Thus, I think its safe to say these are not straight forward.

6) In my opinion, the "abomination that causes desolation" is the rejection and murder of the sinless Son of God. This sacrifice was both an abomination in that it was a rejection of God's chosen one, as well as Gods means of putting an end to sacrifice and offering. No more sacrifice is needed due to the substitutionary death of Christ. I think Peter points to this same concept in Acts 2:22-24.

5) Yes, it is evident to the world (and to God) who bows the knee to Caesar and who bows the knee to Christ. Early Christians were forbidden to buy and sell in the market if they would not offer incense to the gods. If you read the letters to the churches in Revelation you see hints of this very issue. In many places in the world today Christians cannot thrive in the marketplace if they choose to remain loyal to Christ. The mark is spiritual. Those who belong to the Spirit are often persecuted by those who belong to the world...in many ways...one of those ways is often financial. Many will take small steps of compromise, but this visions (and the warnings of Jesus to the churches) reveal that you either serve God or mammon. You cannot serve both...as many attempt to do today.

4) Yes, this is precisely my point. Daniel is told what the 70 weeks points toward:
““Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.” (Daniel 9:24, ESV)
The fact that people use these weeks to point 2000+ years past the event that did these things tells me that their interpretation is way off. I am familiar with the dispensational charts and graphs. I am simply saying that they contradict what the angel told Daniel. ALL of these events took place at the cross/resurrection. Jesus ended transgression, sin, brought atonement, everlasting righteousness and fulfilled ALL of the Law and Prophets. The church is the new Temple made with living stones. We are the body of Christ and the Temple of the Holy Spirit....to point back to Jerusalem and a physical temple made of rock is to be guilty of modern-day Judaizing.

3) My point is that this would not alleviate fears if Paul pointed to a mysterious Antichrist. They could just say, "Yep, Nero was the Antichrist and now he's dead. Yep you missed the rebellion and the Second Coming." Paul's discussion points to a final end of the one who has behind the rebellion and sin of the world since the garden.

2) Yes we differ on our interpretation of Revelation 20.

1) I think it makes a world of difference. If the lawless one is currently opposing God (during Paul's writing) then it is very possible that he does not have a future person in mind.
 

Dani

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Hi Trekson,


Trekson said:
Yes, our bodies are the temple of the HS but that doesn't mean their won't be a future temple. We know Christ says during the millennium he will reign from a temple.

Could you please point out where that is said?
 

Trekson

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Hi Dani, Is. 66:6 - "A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the Lord that rendereth recompence to his enemies."

Ez. 43:7 - "And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places."

Zech. 14:16-17 - "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. (implies a temple)
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain."

Rev. 12:5 - "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." (where else but the temple would He rule from?)

Rev. 20:4 - "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (again, where else would Christ reign from except the temple)
 

Dani

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Jun 2, 2014
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Trekson said:
Hi Dani, Is. 66:6 - "A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the Lord that rendereth recompence to his enemies."

Ez. 43:7 - "And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places."

Zech. 14:16-17 - "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. (implies a temple)
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain."

Rev. 12:5 - "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." (where else but the temple would He rule from?)

Rev. 20:4 - "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (again, where else would Christ reign from except the temple)


Hi Trekson,

All of the prophecy in your post has/is being fulfilled right now, imo.

In Zechariah 14:16-17 - Yes - the heavenly Jerusalem.

Those who do not go up to worship God in the heavenly Jerusalem will receive no rain (rain - what is the spiritual meaning of rain?).

Please see the following verses.


Zech 14:4-5 : 'On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward. And the valley of my mountains shall be stopped up, for the valley of the mountains shall touch the side of it; and you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzzi'ah king of Judah. Then the LORD your God will come, and all the holy ones with him.'


Fulfilled. Jesus' feet stood on the mount of olives. (John 8:1, Matt 21:1, Matt 24:1, Luke 22:39, etc)


Zechariah 14:6-7 : 'On that day there shall be neither cold nor frost. And there shall be continuous day (it is known to the LORD), not day and not night, for at evening time there shall be light.'


Fulfilled. Jesus is the light of the world. The one who follows him shall never be in darkness. (John 8:12, John 12:46, etc)


Zechariah 14:8-9: 'On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea; it shall continue in summer as in winter.'


Fulfilled. Jesus is the living water. Whoever drinks his living water shall never thirst again. The living water flows from the heart, (John 4:10-13, John 7:38, etc).


Zech 14:9-10: 'And the LORD will become king over all the earth; on that day the LORD will be one and his name one.'


Fulfilled. The kingdom of God was given to all of the earth. (Matt 21:37, John 3:16, Acts 13:47, etc). 'I have made you a light to the gentiles to be the means of salvation to the very ends of the earth.'


Zech 14:10-11. 'The whole land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. But Jerusalem shall remain aloft upon its site from the Gate of Benjamin to the place of the former gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Han'anel to the king's wine presses. And it shall be inhabited, for there shall be no more curse; Jerusalem shall dwell in security.'


Fulfilled.


John 4:21: “Believe me, dear lady, the hour is coming when you Samaritans will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You do not know what you are worshiping. We Jews know what we are worshiping, because salvation comes from the Jews. Yet the time is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. Indeed, the Father is looking for people like that to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Gal 4;25: 'Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery along with her children. But the heavenly Jerusalem is the free woman, and she is our spiritual mother.'

Hebrews 12:22: 'Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, to tens of thousands of angels joyfully gathered together, to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, to a judge who is the God of all, to the spirits of righteous people who have been made perfect, to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better message than Abel’s.'


Can you see that?