That second tree

[Angelina]

If Adam and Eve did not disobey God's first command...do you think that good and evil would have found it's way on earth through another avenue?

Do you think that they were going to be gardeners forever in Eden or did God have a plan to bring them from the garden to the New Jerusalem? :huh:

Shalom!

 

[HammerStone]

Romans 3:9-12
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

From passages like the above, and amongst others, I think you have to conclude that between our own faults and Satan's existence, that we would have fallen one way or another because our desires are not naturally in-line with God. I'm of the mind that God had a plan from the very beginning (and the rebellion of Satan) that was put into place in the Garden of Eden.

 

[aspen]

oh no angeline! God would never command us not to sin, while secretly wanting us to, and then punishing us for seemingly disobeying him, when we were actually doing what he wanted. This would be diabolical in practice.

 

[jiggyfly]

If Adam and Eve did not disobey God's first command...do you think that good and evil would have found it's way on earth through another avenue?

Do you think that they were going to be gardeners forever in Eden or did God have a plan to bring them from the garden to the New Jerusalem? :huh:

Shalom!

The fruit from the tree was not good and evil it was the knowledge of good and evil.

I think that selfishness is what A&E were tempted with by the serpent. They were discontent to be with God and desired to be like God especially in the sense of being their own authority. They presumed that the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil would do this all by itself but we can see by the account in Genesis that the fruit from the tree of life was also necessary. Possibly there were more trees in the garden that were also representative of Jesus the Son but I'm not sure if scripture reveals this somewhere. But the two trees mentioned the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life were both symbolic and/or representative of Jesus.

 

[Angelina]

Hi aspen!

oh no angeline! God would never command us not to sin, while secretly wanting us to, and then punishing us for seemingly disobeying him, when we were actually doing what he wanted. This would be diabolical in practice.

I realize that...thanks!

The fruit from the tree was not good and evil it was the knowledge of good and evil.

and that also Jiggy...blessings!

Thanks HS!

From passages like the above, and amongst others, I think you have to conclude that between our own faults and Satan's existence, that we would have fallen one way or another because our desires are not naturally in-line with God.

I think that ya'll may be looking at things in a post fallen perspective. If you consider that Adam an Eve [pre-fallen state] had not yet eaten from the forbidden tree, [the tree of knowledge, of good and evil] how could they make an informed decision based on choice? By what standard of measure did they base their decision on? If we were to make a decision about something, we would have the choices available before us, knowing what they entailed because experience has taught us good from evil, right from wrong....do you think that they truly knew what those decisions mean't in the long run?

I'm of the mind that God had a plan from the very beginning (and the rebellion of Satan) that was put into place in the Garden of Eden.

I agree....

The only conclusion I can come up with is that when God breathed life into Adam and Eve, that original lifebreath had within it, a genetic code that enabled them to define what is good or evil, right or wrong.

Opinions? :huh:

 

[aspen]

1. Why would A&E need to know the difference between right and wrong if evil was never experienced by them?
2. Why would A&E need to break or misuse God's creation in order to enjoy it?
3. Did A&E really learn anything from eating the fruit?
4. Was Jesus's arrival on Earth contingent on A&E's fall?

 

[Angelina]

1. Why would A&E need to know the difference between right and wrong if evil was never experienced by them?

We can conclude then, they the were like little children without the knowledge of what is good and what is evil...it would have been like telling a child not to put their hand into the fire or they will get burned.

 

[aspen]

We can conclude then, they the were like little children without the knowledge of what is good and what is evil...it would have been like telling a child not to put their hand into the fire or they will get burned.

But if there was no fire for them to be burned by then why would they need to know how to avoid it?

 

[Angelina]

But if there was no fire for them to be burned by then why would they need to know how to avoid it?

same as...if their were no death for them to experience...how could they know about death without experiencing death since they had no standard to measure it by? How can one make an informed choice without having the knowledge of what is good or evil?

Hmmm....that is why I believe that they did have understanding of what was commanded of them. As Eve said to the serpent in in Genesis 3
“We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, [sup]3[/sup] but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

She may have added to the original command a little but I think that it was to expound the intensity of the meaning. :huh: JMHO

 

[aspen]

same as...if their were no death for them to experience...how could they know about death without experiencing death since they had no standard to measure it by? How can one make an informed choice without having the knowledge of what is good or evil?

Um...I am not sure you are understanding what I am saying......no informed decision is needed if death, sin, evil are never introduced. Why would we ever have to make a choice between good and bad if bad doesn't exist? Do you think we are better off knowing about nuclear weapons because we can now choose not to use them?

I think you might be mistaking freewill with making a choice between good and bad choices - it is much broader than that - Adam made freewill choices between good choices before the Fall - picking the names for animals is one example.

Evil and sin are not part of God's original plan - we are in plan B. Of course, He is bringing about good things from the situation - like teaching us what forgiveness is - but it is not worth it.

Hmmm....that is why I believe that they did have understanding of what was commanded of them.

Certainly, they did not understand the consequences of their decision to disobey God, however, they did know that disobeying God was wrong. Here are the implications of this idea:

1. Adam and Eve knew right from wrong before the Fall, even without understanding the consequences of disobedience
2. A&E actually lost the ability to make a truly RIGHT decision as a consequence of the Fall.
3. A&E could have disobeyed God in a thousand difference way before they ate the fruit - the fruit taught them nothing except the consequences for disobedience.

Belief that the Fall was supposed to happen maligns God's character and is one of the differences between Christian and Mormon theology.

As Eve said to the serpent in in Genesis 3
“We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, [sup]3[/sup] but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

She may have added to the original command a little but I think that it was to expound the intensity of the meaning. :huh: JMHO

Which proves that Eve understood RIGHT from WRONG.

 

[Angelina]

Um...I am not sure you are understanding what I am saying......no informed decision is needed if death, sin, evil are never introduced. Why would we ever have to make a choice between good and bad if bad doesn't exist? Do you think we are better off knowing about nuclear weapons because we can now choose not to use them?

nuclear weapons come from the tree of knowledge of good and evil....

I think you might be mistaking freewill with making a choice between good and bad choices - it is much broader than that - Adam made freewill choices between good choices before the Fall - picking the names for animals is one example.

Exactly...how could he make bad choices from that?

Evil and sin are not part of God's original plan - we are in plan B. Of course, He is bringing about good things from the situation - like teaching us what forgiveness is - but it is not worth it.

no it is not...have you understood what I'm talking about yet?

1. Adam and Eve knew right from wrong before the Fall, even without understanding the consequences of disobedience

Your preaching to the choir but the question I have been putting forward is...WHY did they know right from wrong before they ate from the tree of knowledge...of good and evil?
My conclusion was not because they had a free will as such but they understood the choices given to them...from God - eat and die, From Satan - eat and be like God knowing good from evil.

Which proves that Eve understood RIGHT from WRONG.

Yes THEY did...but not because of free will...free will is the freedom to choose...how can one choose without having an understanding of what one is choosing and the consequences of that choice. They did IMHO because when God breathed life into them in the beginning, he also gave them knowledge and understanding of good. The tree was a mixed batch of good and evil. If they knew what was good then we can conclude that everything outside of the order of good....was evil.

Shalom!

 

[aspen]

I hope you are not getting to frustrated with this conversation - I think it is a good one, even though it is not necessarily easy to articulate.

nuclear weapons come from the tree of knowledge of good and evil....

True, but that is not my point. All I am saying is - if we never had nuclear weapons, we would be better off. Having discovered nuclear weapons and using them against Japan has not helped us - it has only hurt us. The same is true with the introduction of evil and sin through disobedience.

Exactly...how could he make bad choices from that?

1. He could have disobeyed God by refusing to name the animals. He could have only named his personal favorites. There are many ways Adam could have disobeyed God just involving naming the animals.

2. Adam and Eve were worst off after the Fall, even though God brought something good out of it by teaching us forgiveness.

no it is not...have you understood what I'm talking about yet?

I think I understand you, but I cannot be positive. It sounds like you are trying to preserve God's omniscience by suggesting that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil needed to be present so Adam and Eve would eventually choose to disobey God by eating the fruit and learning the important lesson of the difference between Good and Evil.

I am saying that knowing the difference between Good and Evil is not necessary (why would we ever need to know how to avoid evil by making good choices if their was no evil to navigate?) if evil is never introduced into the world. Freewill is not dependent on knowing evil. Most importantly, the irony of eating the fruit is that Adam and Eve actually lost their ability to make good (perfect) choices because of the curse of the Fall - Original sin. So, before they disobeyed - they knew that eating the fruit was wrong / less good - and they could choose not to eat of it (perfect good) or to eat of it (lesser good / sin) - after they ate of the fruit they could no longer make perfect choices - they could only make lesser good / sinful choices (until Jesus died on the Cross for our sins).

Your preaching to the choir but the question I have been putting forward is...WHY did they know right from wrong before they ate from the tree of knowledge...of good and evil?

Because they knew God did not want them to eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. You are right that they could not imagine the horrible consequences of eating the fruit, but they knew that disobeying God was wrong. The same thing happens when parents tell their kids not to do something that is beyond their scope of reason - the kids are required to obey on faith. They may not understand the consequences of their actions, but they do know that obedience is good and disobedience is bad.

My conclusion was not because they had a free will as such but they understood the choices given to them...from God - eat and die, From Satan - eat and be like God knowing good from evil.

And I am saying that understanding the consequences of their actions is not important - faith in God is important and we do not need to know about the consequences of evil and sin to know that disobedience due to a lack of faith (the serpent knows something that God is refusing to tell us) in God is wrong.

Yes THEY did...but not because of free will...free will is the freedom to choose...how can one choose without having an understanding of what one is choosing and the consequences of that choice. They did IMHO because when God breathed life into them in the beginning, he also gave them knowledge and understanding of good. The tree was a mixed batch of good and evil. If they knew what was good then we can conclude that everything outside of the order of good....was evil.

You are describing the misuse of freewill and treating it like a privilege or necessity. Here is an analogy: A child gets a new toy - she loves the toy and plays with it all the time, until her friend tells her that she is not playing with it like an adult. The girl is confused and says 'My mom never told me to play with my toy differently'. Her friend says 'well, it is because she doesn't want you to be too grown up!' Her friend hands her a hammer a teaches her how to smash her toy. "My mom told me that I needed to take care of my toys', says the girl. "See! Your mom really doesn't want you to act like a grown up!' says the friend. So the girl smashes her toy and tries to hide it from her mom. When her mom confronts her, she say 'I was just playing like an adult!" Later, instead of receiving the toys her mom had planned to give her over the next few years, she ends up giving her broken and used toys because her daughter has developed a compulsion to break every toy she receives so that she can feel like an adult.

So, the moral of the story is not that breaking toys has really helped the girl to grow up. Instead, it is that the breaking toys is a misuse of play that carries the consequence of missed blessings. Therefore, knowing how to break her toys through disobedience has only hurt, rather than enhanced. If the girl had never learned how to break her toys she would have been better off.

 

[Angelina]

True, but that is not my point. All I am saying is - if we never had nuclear weapons, we would be better off. Having discover nuclear weapons and using them on Japan has not helped us - it has only hurt us. The same is true with the introduction of evil and sin through disobedience.

and it has never been my point...I am talking about the pre-fall decision of disobeying Gods command.

1. He could have disobeyed God by refusing to name them. He could have only named his personal favorites. There are many ways Adam could have disobeyed God.

That was not a direct command from God. There was only one direct command from God that caused the world to come under a curse...

I think I understand you, but I cannot be positive. It sounds like you are trying to preserve God's omniscience by suggesting that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil needed to be present so Adam and Eve would choose to disobey God by eating the fruit and learning the important lesson of the difference between Good and Evil.

...no, I think that you do not understand what I am talking about at all...Our God is a God of order. If you look at the creation story in Genesis 1, you will see that everything he made was good and at the end of the 6th day..."It was very good." Why would he have all these thing set in order and then give Adam and Eve a command that they did not understand fully...[but they did understand]

I am saying that knowing the difference between Good and Evil is not necessary if evil is never introduced into the world. Freewill is not dependent on knowing evil.

Free will is dependant on making a decision. In this case to obey or disobey God's command. To disobey God's command is evil because the consequences of that disobedience bought about death to the world.

Also, the irony of eating the fruit is that Adam and Eve actually lost the ability to make good (perfect) choices because of the curse of the Fall - Original sin. So, before they disobeyed - they knew that eating the fruit was wrong / less good - and they could choose not to eat of it (perfect good) or to eat of it (lesser good / sin) - after they ate of the fruit they could no longer make perfect choices - they were all lesser good / sinful choices.

...again, preaching to the choir.

The same thing happens when parents tell their kids not to do something that is beyond their scope of reason - the kids are required to obey on faith. They may not understand the consequences of their actions, but they do know that obedience is good and disobedience is bad.

That is what I had already suggested to you in post number #7

We can conclude then, they the were like little children without the knowledge of what is good and what is evil...it would have been like telling a child not to put their hand into the fire or they will get burned.

and you quoted

But if there was no fire for them to be burned by then why would they need to know how to avoid it?

I think that perhaps you like to be the one saying it rather than someone else???

And I am saying that understanding the consequences of their actions is not important - faith in God is important and we do not need to know about the consequences of evil and sin to know that disobedience due to a lack of faith (the serpent knows something that God is refusing to tell us) in God is wrong.

Oh...I think that understanding the consequences of their action is very important but you are generalizing here and mixing it with a post fall perspective and I am talking about Adam and Eve and their pre-fall decision to disobey God's direct command. :huh:

Shalom!!!

 

[aspen]

and it has never been my point...I am talking about the pre-fall decision of disobeying Gods command.


That was not a direct command from God. There was only one direct command from God that caused the world to come under a curse...


...no, I think that you do not understand what I am talking about at all...Our God is a God of order. If you look at the creation story in Genesis 1, you will see that everything he made was good and at the end of the 6th day..."It was very good." Why would he have all these thing set in order and then give Adam and Eve a command that they did not understand fully...[but they did understand]

Free will is dependant on making a decision. In this case to obey or disobey God's command. To disobey God's command is evil because the consequences of that disobedience bought about death to the world.


...again, preaching to the choir.


That is what I had already suggested to you in post number #7



and you quoted

I think that perhaps you like to be the one saying it rather than someone else???



Oh...I think that understanding the consequences of their action is very important but you are generalizing here and mixing it with a post fall perspective and I am talking about Adam and Eve and their pre-fall decision to disobey God's direct command. :huh:

Shalom!!!

Ok. Maybe you can help me out. Since I appear to be only repeating what you have already said, where are we disagreeing?

This is what I see:

1. We disagree that Adam and Eve could have disobeyed by misusing any part of creation.
2. We disagree that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was a necessary part of the human experience.
3. We disagree that God uses evil to teach us about good.

I think that about sums it up - I am not sure I can explain my position any further. Perhaps we need to agree to disagree unless you have more to add?

 

[Angelina]

1. We disagree that Adam and Eve could have disobeyed by misusing any part of creation.

Adam and Eve disobeyed a direct command....Genesis 2:16-17 His command was Law. When they disobeyed God's direct command, they broke the Law. The consequences of breaking the law brought death to all mankind Romans 5:12, 13

2. We disagree that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was a necessary part of the human experience.

in hindsight...but I have been talking about Adam and Eve and their pre-fallen state, not about what we understand now...

3. We disagree that God uses evil to teach us about good.

Does he? God is good and we can see in hindsight, the good that can be brought about through evil circumstances but does he use evil to teach us that??? :huh:

Let's agree to disagree then brother... ^_^

Shalom!!!

 

[aspen]

Adam and Eve disobeyed a direct command....Genesis 2:16-17 His command was Law. When they disobeyed God's direct command, they broke the Law. The consequences of breaking the law brought death to all mankind Romans 5:12, 13


in hindsight...but I have been talking about Adam and Eve and their pre-fallen state, not about what we understand now...


Does he? God is good and we can see in hindsight, the good that can be brought about through evil circumstances but does he use evil to teach us that??? :huh:

Let's agree to disagree then brother... ^_^

Shalom!!!

I think I need to add some clarification:

1. I believe that A&E could have misused the Garden at any point, direct commandment or no direct commandment and the result would be disobedience and without honest repentance, death. I am not sure how you can determine one commandment as carrying more weight than another.

2. I have been talking about A&E Pre-Fall too.

3. I do not believe God uses evil or sin to teach us about Good - my whole point has been that A&E chose to disobey - God did not set them up or tell them not eat the fruit, but secretly hope they would and than punish them for doing what He secretly wanted them to do all along.

4. Finally, I believe the Tree got it's famous name and reputation after the Fall. It was the one part of creation that Adam and Eve misused. It appears to be a direct commandment by God because it became the one commandment they broke.

 

[Angelina]

1. I believe that A&E could have misused the Garden at any point, direct commandment or no direct commandment and the result would be disobedience and without honest repentance, death. I am not sure how you can determine one commandment as carrying more weight than another.

...because sin is disobedience toward God's command. You cannot be disobedient if there is no command. A command from God is law. You cannot break a law if there is no law to break. There was no other command found in the bible, given to Adam and Eve during their existence in the garden.

2. I have been talking about A&E Pre-Fall too.

Where?...

3. God did not set them up or tell them not eat the fruit, but secretly hope they would and than punish them for doing what He secretly wanted them to do all along.

...I don't believe that either, that was what you had suggested and then decided that I thought that way too...and I don't...

4. Finally, I believe the Tree got it's famous name and reputation after the Fall. It was the one part of creation that Adam and Eve misused. It appears to be a direct commandment by God because it became the one commandment they broke.

It was the only command that they broke because it was the only command that God had given them...

Shalom!!!

 

[aspen]

I think Adam and Eve sinned because they asserted their will before God's, which is Pride. The serpent could have told Adam that he really needed to marry an animal in order to be like God - or anything else that could have ignited his Pride.

 

[NicholasMarks]

We think of sin as being wrongful acts, and, though this is true, it is, as Adam and Eve showed us...much more than that.

Sin is any act which is unrighteous. We have kidded ourselves that certain unrighteous acts are ok..but they are still sin. An unrighteous act involves us wasting our spiritual strength and this we achieve daily on a massive scale. Only by following Jesus accurately do we begin to harness that spiritual force that Jesus says will lead to everlasting life and a closeness with Almighty God. Primarily because it is a repairing force if aligned with the way, the truth and the life.

 

[elysian]

Why was this tree called 'tree of knowledge of good and evil', considering there was only good and no evil pre-fall?