The 144,000 before God at the end.

[rebuilder 454]

Rev ch19 are not resurrected Saints.

But you do not understand 1st & 2nd Thessalonians

Not only are they resurrected saints, but the wedding supper has taken place in heaven.
...as prophesied by Jesus at the last supper.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Re read it.
Without changing it.
"11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

LOST FOREVER

" know"
He did not say" i never knew you"
They missed the rapture, not salvation.
Jesus said " pray that you may be counted worthy..."
The 5 wise were worthy.
The 10 virgin parable is "worthy vs unworthy"
When the bible says " mary had not known a man, it did not mean she was lost forever.
It meant she was not intimate with a man.
" know", refers to the 5 foolish not having intimacy with Jesus.
The 5 foolish are depicted as saved.
Their error was a lack of oil.
Lack of intimacy.

 

[David in NJ]

Not only are they resurrected saints, but the wedding supper has taken place in heaven.
...as prophesied by Jesus at the last supper.

You do not have a single scripture that states they are resurrected Saints,
and
neither can you find one,
because
none exist,
and
JESUS said this: Then He said to them, “With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; for I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”

 

[David in NJ]

" know"
He did not say" i never knew you"
They missed the rapture, not salvation.
Jesus said " pray that you may be counted worthy..."
The 5 wise were worthy.
The 10 virgin parable is "worthy vs unworthy"
When the bible says " mary had not known a man, it did not mean she was lost forever.
It meant she was not intimate with a man.
" know", refers to the 5 foolish not having intimacy with Jesus.
The 5 foolish are depicted as saved.
Their error was a lack of oil.
Lack of intimacy.

When JESUS said "I do not know you" = it means they were never saved.

But you do not "know" this.

 

[David in NJ]

Both sides believe all that.
The game changer is that the pretrib rapture verses, make a postrib rapture impossible.
You cant erase the pretrib rapture verses.

There are no 'pre-trib' rapture verses for if there were you would post them.

But there people who will commit sin to prove their doctrine = Proverbs 30:5-6

BEST to submit unto God and resist the temptation to add/or take away from God's words like the serpent did in the Garden.

 

[rebuilder 454]

and again you post a verse . we can do this all day my friend . BIBLE TIME .
THERE is something else as well . I once wondered to myself why there can be so many teachings
and yet they seem to contradict the truth .
THEN a real simple answer came back to me . For me to go and see IF they even FOLLOW ALL of JESUS teachings .
SO i did . I brought JESUS own words to them and guess what , THEY omitted some of it
said things like OH that applies to jews only , or the times were different back then .
WHAT THEY DIDNT DO was JUST EMBRACE ALL THOSE LOVELY WORDS . How bout i start questioning you .
Cause i bet you twist some of it too . Would you like to talk about remarriage
or how about WHERE JESUS said if one believeth not THEY WILL be damned
OR how about many other places . I JUST bet you gonna twist something the early CHURCH or CHRIST HIMSELF did say .
REAL SIMPLE .

What did i tell you?
I asked you to post a verse.
I then told you that you would not do it, but instead repeat the challenge.
How did i know that???
Because none of you have EVER answered that challenge.

No verses.
None in your last post.
Let me help you.
Matthew 24 Jesus uses the phrase "after the tribulation of those days". Now that verse right there out of Matthew 24 is your Cornerstone Banner reverse for your position of the rapture.
So let's take a look at that .
You have a gathering after the tribulation .
Now, this must be right before the white horses of rev 19 come down with all the saints
Ok now let's look at what that says.
it says Angels gather not Jesus and it says they gather from heaven.
On top of that Jesus again frames his coming as before the destruction of Sodom where lot was removed and also uses Noah and he says Before the Flood.
Now ask yourself why are there no post-trib Rapture teachers actually discussing Before the Flood and before Sodom is destroyed?
we got two removals before judgment .
ask yourself why do your teachers never bring this up?

 

[rebuilder 454]

When JESUS said "I do not know you" = it means they were never saved.

But you do not "know" this.

They have lamps
They have oil
They are with the wise and indistinguishable
They are waiting for Jesus.
So they are dedicated.
But beyond that, they are virgins.
Virgins = undefiled/pure.
They are in fact saved saints.
Look at the rebukes to BELIEVERS in the 7 letters to the 7 churches.

All that is basic
.
But it all works against your doctrine

 

[amigo de christo]

OT Prophet Daniel says that the Antichrist comes BEFORE the LORD'S Return.
JESUS agrees with the OT Prophecies beginning in Genesis.

Matthew ch24
“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

This is that of anti christ which you heard SHOULD COME and even NOW is it in the world .
YEAH its been at work a long while my friend . The mystery of inquity has been .
The apostels knew something much of this church age does not . We been at war a whole lot longer
than most folks realize . Tribulation WILL only get much worse in this final hours against the true saints .
Something pre tribbers or many know not . There is a huge difference
between tribulation of this world aka the beast and its men , versus the actual tribulation and wrath of GOD
that cometh against THE beast and the world that followed it .
Many twist revelation too . IT specifically talks of this . The tribulations of men of the beast
that COMETH against lambs . THE TRIBULATION , aka WRATH OF GOD cometh against THE BEAST and men of this world .
Folks keep messing things up my friend .
They even mess up the part where paul is writing at the end to try and justify WHY the church dont go under
this wrath from the beast . NOPE it means we are not appointed UNTO THE WRATH OF GOD
that cometh against the beast and the world . They keep messing things up .
Folks dont want to beleive we might actually have to suffer and die for CHRIST .
They want to beleive that is not for us . YET JESUS warned us IT WOULD BE . YE SHALL HAVE TRIBULATION IN THIS WORLD .
IT is the wrath of GOD we dont go under . BUT the wrath of satan , of the beast , of the world , WE WILL have to face .
JUST as many before us have . ONLY its about to go viral big time . A huge massive great tribulation
is coming against the lambs . GOD WILL END IT on the DAY JESUS COMETH FOR THE Lambs still left .
At that same TIME cometh the wrath of GOD against the ungodly and against the beast and FP .
THAT is what we dont go under . IS THE WRATH OF GOD . But prepare to lose all in this world .

 

[amigo de christo]

OT Prophet Daniel says that the Antichrist comes BEFORE the LORD'S Return.
JESUS agrees with the OT Prophecies beginning in Genesis.

Matthew ch24
“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Notice WHO JESUS is talking too . He aint talking to the left behind . HE IS TALKING TO THE CHURCH .
WHEN YE SHALL SEE the ABOMINATION . yeah . Prepare to suffer for CHRIST is all i can say .
Notice JESUS also warns THE CHURCH , not the left behind , THEN shall many betray many
some of you they shall kill , deliver up etc . BUT that HE who endures to the END shall be saved .
JESUS always warned the church . AND HIS WORDS apply TO US , cause we are the church .
WHEN JESUS own desciples asked him specifically what it would look like nigh the end
HE NEVER once said , I WILL WISK YOU AWAY BEFORE THIS TRIBULATION cometh against you .
HE RATHER WARNED THEM TO BE PREPARED TO SUFFER EVEN UNTO DEATH and that HE who endures
faithful to the end the same shall be saved . JESUS didnt preach pre trib . JESUS preached TRUTH
and warned all who followed HIM this world WILL HATE YOU , it will PERSECUTE YOU and many would be killed .
SO i suggest we DO the same . AS i bet YOU DO AGREE .
ITS TIME TO PREPARE the church WITH JESUS OWN WORDS . And fast too .
AKA , WE GONNA BIBLE UP . Get them folks BIBLED UP and fast too . cause men are giving out false hopes
faster than a fire in a hurricane in a field of dry timber . TIME to get the peoples prepared .

 

[ewq1938]

Both sides believe all that.

No, the scriptures show the rapture happens at the s3econd coming, and Matthew 24 shows the second coming happening after the trib has ended so the bible promotes a posttrib rapture. There is no other rapture in the bible.

The game changer is that the pretrib rapture verses, make a postrib rapture impossible.
You cant erase the pretrib rapture verses.

There are none so naturally you can't erase what does not exist.

 

[amigo de christo]

No, the scriptures show the rapture happens at the s3econd coming, and Matthew 24 shows the second coming happening after the trib has ended so the bible promotes a posttrib rapture. There is no other rapture in the bible.




There are none so naturally you can't erase what does not exist.

To sum it up the rapture IS THE SECOND COMING , the lambs fly home with the KING
the world goes under the wrath of GOD that cometh against the beast , fp and ungodly who followed it and loved a lie .

 

[The Light]

Explicit rapture is certainly mentioned in MY Bible! The rapture happens between the 6th and 7th Seal Rev 7:9-17. It happens in the exact middle of the tribulation right before the 7th Seal is opened and the antichrist is revealed.

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal and then the wrath of God begins in the 7th seal. The signs of the sun, moon and stars occur immediately after the tribulation.
Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The calamities of first 5 Seals are not orchestrated by God. The just give freedom to the antichrist to set up his world rule. After getting the saints out of the way in Rev 7, you will see that with chapter 8, judgement upon this remaining, is directed by God, with plague after plague being administered by Angel 1, :, : etc. These judgements which run :.5 years were never intended for the saints.

You are correct that there is a rapture at the 6th seal, but it is not the Church being raptured as they are already in heaven in Revelation 5

 

[The Light]

You deny that spiritual discernment is required to understand the 144,000.

So provide from Scripture an example that does require spiritual discernment.

And explain why and how it does.

The pretribulation rapture requires discernment.

You first need to understand that the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. It is the time of Jacob's trouble.

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Then you would need to understand the mystery that the fullness of the Gentiles comes in before the eyes of the Jews are opened.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And you should probably understand that the Gentiles are saved first to provoke the Jews to jealously.

Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Then you might want to understand that when the rapture of the Church happens the Jews will realize that they missed the harvest.

Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

You should probably discern what God's plan was and is, and that the fig tree has two harvests. And the Jews will not be the first harvest.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Then you should understand the feasts of God from the Old Testament and realize the the spring and summer harvest feasts come before the fall harvest feast and understand what happens on God's feast days.

I could go on and on, but I would be wasting my time. I have come to the conclusion that some have eyes to see and ears to hear and some don't. Until a man makes the decision that the truth of the Word of God is more important than doctrine nothing will change with that man.

All these false teachings that were passed down by unbelieving men when the book was sealed have only led people from the truth.

 

[ewq1938]

All these false teachings that were passed down by unbelieving men when the book was sealed have only led people from the truth.

That's Pretrib in a nutshell. It is the only doctrine that wants to commit/take part in apostasia which is Apostasy not Rapture. There could not be a clearer warning sign of doctrinal deception than that.

 

[covenantee]

The pretribulation rapture requires discernment.

I said spiritual discernment.

What Scripture about your rapture requires spiritual discernment? Don't you believe that it is a literal event?

 

[The Light]

Notice WHO JESUS is talking too . He aint talking to the left behind . HE IS TALKING TO THE CHURCH .
WHEN YE SHALL SEE the ABOMINATION . yeah . Prepare to suffer for CHRIST is all i can say .
Notice JESUS also warns THE CHURCH , not the left behind , THEN shall many betray many
some of you they shall kill , deliver up etc . BUT that HE who endures to the END shall be saved .
JESUS always warned the church . AND HIS WORDS apply TO US , cause we are the church .
WHEN JESUS own desciples asked him specifically what it would look like nigh the end
HE NEVER once said , I WILL WISK YOU AWAY BEFORE THIS TRIBULATION cometh against you .
HE RATHER WARNED THEM TO BE PREPARED TO SUFFER EVEN UNTO DEATH and that HE who endures
faithful to the end the same shall be saved . JESUS didnt preach pre trib . JESUS preached TRUTH
and warned all who followed HIM this world WILL HATE YOU , it will PERSECUTE YOU and many would be killed .
SO i suggest we DO the same . AS i bet YOU DO AGREE .
ITS TIME TO PREPARE the church WITH JESUS OWN WORDS . And fast too .
AKA , WE GONNA BIBLE UP . Get them folks BIBLED UP and fast too . cause men are giving out false hopes
faster than a fire in a hurricane in a field of dry timber . TIME to get the peoples prepared .

Jesus is NOT talking to the Church. They are already in heaven. The 70th week is the time of Jacobs trouble, not the Churches.

 

[The Light]

I said spiritual discernment.

What Scripture about your rapture requires spiritual discernment? Don't you believe that it is a literal event?

Wait a second. So you want to tell me you have spiritually discerned that the 144,000 is the Church. Why did not John just not say the Church? The Church was mentioned 19 times in the first three chapters of Revelation and then no mention of them again until Revelation 22. Don't you find that suspect? We can see the kings and priests in heaven in Revelation 5, BEFORE THE SEALS ARE OPENED.

And then we are given 12 verses identifying things about the 144,000 so we would know exactly who they are. Primarily they are first fruits from the 12 tribes. And you want to toss aside all this information identifying exactly who the 144,000 are and discern that they aren't what God says they are? That does not sound wise or discerning whatsoever.

Additionally, we see the 144,000 in heaven before the throne in heaven REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH. If you had any discernment that would pose a problem as that would put them in heaven BEFORE the Great Tribulation seen here.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

And why are you unable to discern the character of God. He sealed Noah in the ark 6 days before the flood and removed Lot from Sodom the very day destruction would come. And yet you have the Church going through the wrath of God. That doesn't sound very discerning. If you want to discern something, discern who the foolish virgins are that are not watching for the imminent return of the Messiah.

 

[David in NJ]

They have lamps
They have oil
They are with the wise and indistinguishable
They are waiting for Jesus.
So they are dedicated.
But beyond that, they are virgins.
Virgins = undefiled/pure.
They are in fact saved saints.
Look at the rebukes to BELIEVERS in the 7 letters to the 7 churches.

All that is basic
.
But it all works against your doctrine

Actually it works against the lie of pre-trib = half-filled = "no lie is of the Truth"

Have you read 1 John lately??? = You better fill-UP

 

[amigo de christo]

What did i tell you?
I asked you to post a verse.
I then told you that you would not do it, but instead repeat the challenge.
How did i know that???
Because none of you have EVER answered that challenge.

No verses.
None in your last post.
Let me help you.
Matthew 24 Jesus uses the phrase "after the tribulation of those days". Now that verse right there out of Matthew 24 is your Cornerstone Banner reverse for your position of the rapture.
So let's take a look at that .
You have a gathering after the tribulation .
Now, this must be right before the white horses of rev 19 come down with all the saints
Ok now let's look at what that says.
it says Angels gather not Jesus and it says they gather from heaven.
On top of that Jesus again frames his coming as before the destruction of Sodom where lot was removed and also uses Noah and he says Before the Flood.
Now ask yourself why are there no post-trib Rapture teachers actually discussing Before the Flood and before Sodom is destroyed?
we got two removals before judgment .
ask yourself why do your teachers never bring this up?

ask youself why you are not paying attention to what i said . I already told ya there are truths and errors
in all three tribs . TIME to go and learn that . And you are way overthinking things if you think we got two removals
before JUDGEMENT .
Lest by the other removal you are trying to imply that means we got called out of the world by FAITH IN JESUS
and thus we are no longer of the world .
THERE is but one removal concering the end time judgment upon the world by which it will surely perish
as will those who praticed evil and loved a lie . The lambs have already been CALLED OUT OF THE WORLD
though we still are IN the world we are no longer of the world .
BUT the day is coming and hour cometh WHEN THE MASTER OF THE HOUSE shall arise to JUDGE THE WORLD BY WRATH .
On that day the church is raptured up to go home as HE LIES DOWN with fierce wrath the wrath against
all who loved a lie , rejected HIM . TIS A ONE TIME EVENT BUD .
ONE TIME . and my advice to those who offer up a second chance hope , IS DONT .
You aint helping squat by doing so and rather encourage the flesh to continue on cause at least it might have a second chance .
WHEN INDEED THERE IS NO SECOND CHANCE . A little advice
IF you or me or anyone were to suddenly see or hear of folks dissappearing in what is known as the rapture ,
TUCK Your head down betwixt your knees and kiss it all good bye . CAUSE THE WRATH OF GOD IS ALL YOU GONNA SEE .
THERE IS NO SECOND chance . NOT after death , NOT after the LORD arises EITHER to judge this world .
My advice , Start preaching JESUS while there still BE TIME TO DO SO . cause NO man knows the day nor hour
HE COMETH . yeah preach that .

 

[amigo de christo]

Jesus is NOT talking to the Church. They are already in heaven. The 70th week is the time of Jacobs trouble, not the Churches.

you mean according to PRE TRIB JESUS is not talking to the church and that according to men of pre trib
that is the seventieth week . Rather odd though .
Paul seemed to be warning both believing jews and believing gentiles . aka THE CHURCH .
JESUS told this to BELIEVERS pardner . You problem is you are buying into what men TAUGHT YA .
TIME to OPEN BIBLE FOR YOU . as i said there are truths and ERRORS within all three tribs .
ALL THREE TRIB teachings . THAT DO INCLUDE BIG TIME PRE TRIB . OPEN BIBLE . LOVE BIBLE
READ BIBLE , KEEP READING BIBLE , KEEP LOVING BIBLE and watch what happens .
BUT SO LONG as you read it through your own version , your own trib , YOU , like others , ARE NOT GONNA SEE What
NEEDS and what NEEDED TO BE SEEN . PONDER ON that for a while .