The 144,000 before God at the end.

[The Light]

Several problems with a mid trib rapture

I am not saying there is a mid trib rapture. There is a pretrib rapture of the Church and there is a rapture immediately after the tribulation at the 6th seal of the 12 tribes across the earth. This is why there are 144,000 first fruits of this harvest. The harvest occurs at the 6th seal which is what you see in Rev 14 harvest.

You leave out that all rapture verses are pretrib and normal life , peacetime, and commerce.
Your timeframe does not fit that.

No I don't. There are two raptures. One before the seals are opened and one at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God.

You need to understand the difference between tribulation which is the 1st 6 seals and the wrath of God which is the 7th seal.

Also, Jesus said he comes after the tribulation in power and great glory.

Right. But this happens at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God

That can only be rev 19 where he returns posttrib or the end of the 7 yr gt.

Post trib is the 6th seal. Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Jesus remains in the clouds at this coming.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.


All eyes see Him, but He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from HEAVEN AND EARTH.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

[rebuilder 454]

There are two raptures. One like the days of Noah where the flood comes 7 days after Noah is told to enter the ark and one like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.


There are two raptures. One before the tribulation which is the seals and one after the tribulation. Then the wrath of God begins which is one year from the first truptet until Jesus leaves heaven with His armies.


Of course it doesn't fit. The 144.000 are first fruits of the second harvest.


In Matthew 24 the 2nd coming does NOT occur after the Great Tribulation. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. The second advent occurs after the GT.

Here is the proof that the tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The tribulation if over at the 6th seal. The Word tells us in Matthew 24, IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. That occurs at the 6th seal, so the tribulation is over at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. Then God's wrath begins.

Additionally, the GT does not begin until the Abomination of Desolation is set up in the midst of the week.
I think you understand there are two raptures. One happens before the tribulation and one happens at the 6th seal. That is what you see in the harvest of Revelation 14.

When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals.

No
Noah and lot are both pretrib or prejudgement.
We know this because each one has the exact same component of "one taken, one left...and "watch and pray"

...and BTW, your interpretaion has Jesus coming prewrath in power and great glory and. Yet descrined in wrath
Which would place his coming in wrath and great power mid trib or halfway through the 7 year gt.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I am not saying there is a mid trib rapture. There is a pretrib rapture of the Church and there is a rapture immediately after the tribulation at the 6th seal of the 12 tribes across the earth. This is why there are 144,000 first fruits of this harvest. The harvest occurs at the 6th seal which is what you see in Rev 14 harvest.


No I don't. There are two raptures. One before the seals are opened and one at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God.

You need to understand the difference between tribulation which is the 1st 6 seals and the wrath of God which is the 7th seal.


Right. But this happens at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God


Post trib is the 6th seal. Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Jesus remains in the clouds at this coming.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.


All eyes see Him, but He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from HEAVEN AND EARTH.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

show me where he comes in power and great glory prewrath

 

[rebuilder 454]

Does anyone have a name for the seven year gt????
Maybe the modern student is forbidden to call it something?

Very tedious all the different applications.
Plus yall all just assume the devastation and destruction by the four horsemen, unmatched in history, is a minor world wide speed bump and no big deal.

 

[The Light]

You quoted rev 6 :12,13
Keep reading.
That timeframe says " the wrath of the lamb."

Don't fall for that Perry Stone stuff. Love the man, but is not the lamb................God. The wrath of the Lamb is the wrath of God.

The context you left out, is after the 7 yr gt.

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal............BEFORE the wrath of God.

Mat 24 has 2 comings.
One is pretrib.
The other is post flood or post trib post gt post wrath

One pretrib. One post trib, the second coming and the returns at the end of wrath with the armies of Heaven, the second advent.

All those " posts" are post 7 yr gt.

The tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins.

The only " prewrath" ( mid trib) is the 144k firstfruits

EXACTLY

along with the Main harvest of Jews in rev 14.

No. The main harvest of the second rapture of the Jews in Revelation 14 occurs at the 6th seal.

This is the seed of the woman Israel, the twelve tribes across the earth. When the dragon goes after the woman, Israel..........those that have fled to a place of protection, he goes after the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth.

Revelation 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

In summary. The Church is raptured pretrib, before the seals are opened. The twelve tribes are raptured post trib at the 6th seal, which is what you see in Rev 14, and then the wrath of God begins. The woman, Israel is in her place of protection and goes through the wrath of God.

Only unbelievers and the woman Israel, that is protected, go through the wrath of God. All others are in heaven for the marriage supper and are the great multitude of Rev 7.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes we all know it has wrath at the end and "trib is devil" vs "wrath is God"
As if wrath can never have trib contained within it
SMH

 

[rebuilder 454]

Don't fall for that Perry Stone stuff. Love the man, but is not the lamb................God. The wrath of the Lamb is the wrath of God.

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal............BEFORE the wrath of God.


One pretrib. One post trib, the second coming and the returns at the end of wrath with the armies of Heaven, the second advent.


The tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins.



EXACTLY

No. The main harvest of the second rapture of the Jews in Revelation 14 occurs at the 6th seal.

This is the seed of the woman Israel, the twelve tribes across the earth. When the dragon goes after the woman, Israel..........those that have fled to a place of protection, he goes after the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth.

Revelation 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

In summary. The Church is raptured pretrib, before the seals are opened. The twelve tribes are raptured post trib at the 6th seal, which is what you see in Rev 14, and then the wrath of God begins. The woman, Israel is in her place of protection and goes through the wrath of God.

Only unbelievers and the woman Israel, that is protected, go through the wrath of God. All others are in heaven for the marriage supper and are the great multitude of Rev 7.

Name calling and belittlement??
Go fly a kite jr

 

[The Light]

show me where he comes in power and great glory prewrath

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Got to go for now, but you need to understand that the coming of Jesus in power and glory occurs at the 6th seal before wrath. It is MARKED by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

 

[rebuilder 454]

If that is heaven, then all of creation is under the alter, even the angels

It says they are TEMPORARILY confined

 

[rebuilder 454]

Not exactly! There was great tribulation that came to the nation of Israel from the wrath of God, and there is great tribulation that comes against the building of the spiritual Kingdom of God through the universal Church on earth that originates from the demonic spiritual realm. Since the first century AD there has always been "great tribulation" against Christ and His Church that will not end until Christ returns. But "great tribulation" that originates from spiritual evil is always cut short so that the evil is never allowed to prevent the spiritual Kingdom of God from being completed through the Gospel proclaimed in the power of His Spirit.

Name for me the correct name for the 7 yr period

 

[rebuilder 454]

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Got to go for now, but you need to understand that the coming of Jesus in power and glory occurs at the 6th seal before wrath. It is MARKED by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

It says power and great glory.
You have that coming prewrath.
When in fact that is postwrath.
We see the prewrath in rev 14.
It is NOT power and great glory at all.

 

[rwb]

Name for me the correct name for the 7 yr period

What 7 year period are you referring to? I don't find this 7 year period in Scripture??? It is always read into the Scripture by dispensationalists, but does not come from Scripture!

 

[rebuilder 454]

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Got to go for now, but you need to understand that the coming of Jesus in power and glory occurs at the 6th seal before wrath. It is MARKED by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

IOW you transpose Rev 19 onto a mid trib 2nd coming

 

[rebuilder 454]

What 7 year period are you referring to? I don't find this 7 year period in Scripture??? It is always read into the Scripture by dispensationalists, but does not come from Scripture!

SMH

 

[rebuilder 454]

There are two raptures. One like the days of Noah where the flood comes 7 days after Noah is told to enter the ark and one like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.


There are two raptures. One before the tribulation which is the seals and one after the tribulation. Then the wrath of God begins which is one year from the first truptet until Jesus leaves heaven with His armies.


Of course it doesn't fit. The 144.000 are first fruits of the second harvest.


In Matthew 24 the 2nd coming does NOT occur after the Great Tribulation. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. The second advent occurs after the GT.

Here is the proof that the tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The tribulation if over at the 6th seal. The Word tells us in Matthew 24, IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. That occurs at the 6th seal, so the tribulation is over at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. Then God's wrath begins.

Additionally, the GT does not begin until the Abomination of Desolation is set up in the midst of the week.
I think you understand there are two raptures. One happens before the tribulation and one happens at the 6th seal. That is what you see in the harvest of Revelation 14.

When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals.

Rev 14 describes the setting and method of his coming.
It is not in power and great glory.
Show me power and great glory coming mid trib

Not transposed.
Just where it says that in rev 14

 

[The Light]

Name calling and belittlement??
Go fly a kite jr

I love Perry Stone brother. But he thinks the wrath of lamb is different from wrath of God. Is the lamb not God?

I value the things that Perry teaches as you get a good perspective from the Jewish side. He's actually one of my favorites, but he does not understand there is two raptures.

 

[rebuilder 454]

There are two raptures. One like the days of Noah where the flood comes 7 days after Noah is told to enter the ark and one like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.


There are two raptures. One before the tribulation which is the seals and one after the tribulation. Then the wrath of God begins which is one year from the first truptet until Jesus leaves heaven with His armies.


Of course it doesn't fit. The 144.000 are first fruits of the second harvest.


In Matthew 24 the 2nd coming does NOT occur after the Great Tribulation. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. The second advent occurs after the GT.

Here is the proof that the tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The tribulation if over at the 6th seal. The Word tells us in Matthew 24, IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. That occurs at the 6th seal, so the tribulation is over at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. Then God's wrath begins.

Additionally, the GT does not begin until the Abomination of Desolation is set up in the midst of the week.
I think you understand there are two raptures. One happens before the tribulation and one happens at the 6th seal. That is what you see in the harvest of Revelation 14.

When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals.

No.
That is all your transposing of it.
Jesus uses lot and noah in the same setting.
Exact same setting.
There is NOTHING in noah of a postrib harvest.
Not a thing.
You transposed it using a "7 day before flood" dynamic.
You made that into mid trib rapture.
Jesus did not do that.

 

[rwb]

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Got to go for now, but you need to understand that the coming of Jesus in power and glory occurs at the 6th seal before wrath. It is MARKED by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

You have Christ returning when the sixth SEAL is opened, but John writes after the seventh SEAL is opened there are still seven angels to come with seven trumpets to sound, and John writes "time shall be no longer" when the seventh angel begins to sound. It is when time shall be no longer that Christ returns.

The opening of the sixth seal describes in symbolic language what shall be with the coming of the Lord to earth a man. A time that shall end when the seventh angel begins to sound, that shall culminate with the Lord's return and God's wrath.

Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[rebuilder 454]

I love Perry Stone brother. But he thinks the wrath of lamb is different from wrath of God. Is the lamb not God?

I value the things that Perry teaches as you get a good perspective from the Jewish side. He's actually one of my favorites, but he does not understand there is two raptures.

the innumerable number before the throne is part of main harvest.
Harvest has 4 parts
FF
Main
Corners
Gleaners

That is one harvest .
The 144k is the other rapture.
They are the fruit harvest.
That is the Jewish harvest
The 144k are FF JEWISH harvest.
The fact they are FF ethnic Jews means main JEWISH harvest is next

The 7 yr gt is JACOBS TROUBLE
ISRAELS TROUBLE.
The entire 7 yr period has zero to do with the church.
The church is taken in exact detail of the 10 virgin parable

And like EVERY rapture verse, it is peacetime, commerce and normal life.
Every rapture verse is the same setting.
In no rapture verse is there "power and great glory"
Not even in the gathering in rev 14.
Sickle sitting on a cloud.

 

[rebuilder 454]

How does Paul being a Jew, establish your ethnic assumption?

LISTEN to what the Apostle Paul says about ethnic Judaism: Galatians chapter 3

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you [a]that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed Galatians 3 NKJVamong you as crucified? 2This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4Have you suffered so [c]many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?


5Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

The Law Brings a Curse​

10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11But that no one is [d]justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”


13Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The Changeless Promise​

15Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God [e]in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Purpose of the Law​

19What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.


21Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, [f]kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24Therefore the law was our [g]tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Sons and Heirs​

26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Your position is " no such thing as a Jew"
I blew a hole in it.
You redirected