The 144,000 before God at the end.

[PinSeeker]

...there are Jews in pauls day and also now in this world... I am declaring a no brainer fact.

Sure there are. But, as I'm sure you well know, His Kingdom is not of this world.

There are 144k actual Jews from actual tribes.

Well, I disagree... in both ways: 1) of this world (past, present, and going forward), and 2) not of this world (past, present, and throughout eternity.

The concept of "oh, there are no Jews today, all that is just some spiritual application as we make it up in our heads"...is plain ridiculous...

I agree. :) But there is a worldly application (which we agree on, at least basically), and there is a spiritual one. Paul is very clear on both. And really, Rebuilder, who in this world would say "There are no Jews today"? Who would say such a stupid, out-of-touch-with-reality thing as that? I mean, to say such a thing would be beyond ridiculous. No one here is saying that.

Jacob has two brides. Both are gathered for the marriage supper.

Uh, do you mean Christ Jesus has two brides? Jacob, as you may be aware, was renamed Israel by God (Genesis 32:28; 35:10). He actually had four brides, Leah, Rachel, Bilhah, and Zilpah, which is interesting, but a different subject entirely. :) Christ Jesus has and will have one Bride and one only; He is not a polygamist. :) Anyhoo... :) Yes, we ~ true Jews (inwardly, circumcised of the heart), are, together, God's Israel, which consists of all those whom God has called, from every tongue, tribe, and nation... and together are Christ's Bride,

Hoo, boy. The things people come up with on this board... Wow. :)

Grace and peace to you both.

 

[TribulationSigns]

how ironic.
You cant even address simple concepts.
Instead hit people with some juvenile dodge.
Snarky and lowest road.
SMH

 

[covenantee]

Get that into your thick skull first.

Evidently I'm not the only thick skull on this forum.

Why no response?

Provide your fully spiritualized typological interpretation of the following:

Daniel 9
26 ...the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27...for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

What "end" is being referred to?
What "thereof" is being referred to?
What "flood" is being referred to?
What "war" is being referred to?
What "desolations" are being referred to?
What "abominations" are being referred to?
What "it" is being referred to?
What "consummation" is being referred to?
Who is/are the "desolate"?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Evidently I'm not the only thick skull on this forum.

Of course, so were the Jewish leaders in Christ's day. And all those without spiritual discernment.

Why no response?

I am on the phone and on my way to pickleball tonight. I will respond later. You should know that I have a life too.

Provide your fully spiritualized typological interpretation of the following:

Daniel 9
26 ...the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27...for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

What "end" is being referred to?
What "thereof" is being referred to?
What "flood" is being referred to?
What "war" is being referred to?
What "desolations" are being referred to?
What "abominations" are being referred to?
What "it" is being referred to?
What "consummation" is being referred to?
Who is/are the "desolate"?

Sorry, you can't remove part of verses like this. Response later.

 

[covenantee]

Sorry, you can't remove part of verses like this. Response later.

I've included them, not removed them.

Too much for your "hermeneutic"?

Speaking of thick skulls...

 

[TribulationSigns]

I've included them, not removed them.

Too much for your "hermeneutic"?

Speaking of thick skulls...

Wrong-o.

You have removed the part in red.

Dan 9:26-27
(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It will refute your doctrine as I shall respond soon.

Have a good evening!

 

[covenantee]

Wrong-o.

You have removed the part in red.

Dan 9:26-27
(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It will refute your doctrine as I shall respond soon.

Have a good evening!

Oh, I thought you'd explained all of that.

I want to see your explanation of what you haven't yet explained.

That's more than obvious.

Thick skull?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Oh, I thought you'd explained all of that.

I want to see your explanation of what you haven't yet explained.

That's more than obvious.

Thick skull?

I have explained Daniel 9:24-27 several times before. You neither read or remember. So you have assumed that I have not explained the second part of the verses you quoted, which is not true.

Anyway, its late tonight as I just got home. So I will probably respond tomorrow morning. Have a good night! :-)

 

[covenantee]

I have explained Daniel 9:24-27 several times before. You neither read or remember. So you have assumed that I have not explained the second part of the verses you quoted, which is not true.

Anyway, its late tonight as I just got home. So I will probably respond tomorrow morning. Have a good night! :)

For Daniel 9:26-27:
I looked for your explanation of "flood" in this forum. It is nonexistent.
I looked for your explanation of "consummation" in this forum. It is nonexistent.
I looked no further as I'm quite certain that you have explained none of the words about which I've inquired.
You're unable to remember your own vacuity.
A thick skull can do that.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What an imagination!! Where is your biblical authority for saying Noah "went into the sky"???? You're kidding right? So he went into the sky and returned to the earth after the flood???? Where does this bizarre garbage come from? It certainly does not come from the written Word of God!

Gen 7
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

You just called Gods Holy Word "bizarre garbage"
Your doctrine is pure baloney.
The bible makes good doctrine.
Your teachers ...not so much.
In fact you follow them into your bible reframe madness

 

[rwb]

Gen 7
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

You just called Gods Holy Word "bizarre garbage"
Your doctrine is pure baloney.
The bible makes good doctrine.
Your teachers ...not so much.
In fact you follow them into your bible reframe madness

This is repeating ad nauseum the same garbage already shown to be error! You can go back and read it again, but I'm really tired of repeating myself to an apparent spiritually blind and death person. I call your doctrine bizarre garbage not God's Holy Word! It is your doctrine that turns the Holy Word of God into bizarre garbage because you try to force error into God Pure Word.

 

[rebuilder 454]

This is repeating ad nauseum the same garbage already shown to be error! You can go back and read it again, but I'm really tired of repeating myself to an apparent spiritually blind and death person. I call your doctrine bizarre garbage not God's Holy Word! It is your doctrine that turns the Holy Word of God into bizarre garbage because you try to force error into God Pure Word.

you= "genesis 7 is garbage".
What a trap you got yourself into.
Now you actually defend calling it garbage.
Wow
SMH

 

[TribulationSigns]

Dan 9:26-27
(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Earlier, Covenantee asked me to interpret what the verse in black said. The problem is that the interpreation can't be done without understanding what the red says, too. So here I will respond but for tonight, starting with Daniel 9:24.
Dan 9:24
(24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The problem is when most people read, "determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city," they automatically believe God is talking about the Jews, the nation Israel and the physical city of Jersualem. I am sorry but this is not who God was talking about at all.

Let us be honest and ask this question, who is Daniel's people? We need to go no further than the preceding verse:

Dan 9:20
(20) And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;

The verse says Daniel was praying and confessing the sins of himself and "HIS PEOPLE, ISRAEL." So then, God hath answered our question. The, "thy people" of Daniel 9:24, refers to the people of Israel. But listen, not the nation Israel, but CONGREGATION ISRAEL making up of all Saints from the Old Testament and the New Testament. We, Christians, are also Daniel's people...in CHRIST whom He has made a covenant with! Selah! It is the congregation of Israel that God went on to declare the six purpose of these 70 weeks prophesied and determined upon her, with Scripture references:

#1. To restrain [kala] the transgression (2nd thess. 2:6-7).
#2. To make an end of [chatham] sins (Hebrews 9:26 1st, John 5:18)
#3. To make reconciliation for iniquity (Hebrews 2:17).
#4. To bring in everlasting righteousness.(2nd Cor. 5:21).
#5. To seal up the Vision and the prophecy (Isaiah 29:11).
#6. To anoint the most Holy [godesh]. (Acts 10:38 4:27).

These are all things concerning dealings of God with His People, Israel, in Mercy and Judgment. All of God's people who are Daniel's people! Transgression is restrained, sin is stopped, reconciliation is made for them to bring in everlasting righteousness, Judgement comes upon Israel (Blindness in part) sealing up the vision and prophet, and the Most Holy is anointed. This is what scripture tells us is determined to happen during the final week of Daniel 70 weeks. This is what God, not man, declares! And God says NOTHING about the so-called Anti-Christ coming, A evil leader named Titus, the Romans, slaughtered pigs in a Temple, or the destruction of 70 AD. Not a single solitary word about these things! So the question then becomes, where does these type teachings come from if it's not here in the pertinent scriptures? The answer is, from people who have been taught error, and who don't bother to check the scriptures carefully to see if they 'actually do say' what Theologians claim that they do, and so repeat these errors as if they were the gospel truth!

Clearly, the people of this Prince in the CONTEXT that should come are the people of Israel. Verse 24 says 70 weeks are determined upon 'thy people' and verse 20 tells us who this 'thy people' were. Remember also of verse 20 said that the vision would be sealed up, and the Prophet would be sealed up! We don't need man-made interpretations, we saw by Scripture just what that related to. It is Israel, and her judgement of blindness. Her judgement is of God. Eyes that they may not see and not understand the vision of God's Salvation program (sealing the vision) is judgement of GOD, not Romans putting out their eyes or some antichrist-man, fable. Man cannot seal up the vision and Prophets. Only God can.

When verse 26 says the people of the Prince that comes will destroy the city and sanctuary, it is talking about the people of Israel. Not Romans soldiers of evil prince that someone is trying to insert it in despite what the context says. They are the people of the coming Prince (Messiah), and they destroyed the City. Did not Israel reject the Messiah, and destroy the Temple? For example, the stone that the builders rejected, is become head of the corner, is it not? The Jews of the Old Testament INDEED destroyed the Sanctuary. And this isn't speculation, we have to answer these questions 'Biblically,' not by what we think, or what our teachers told us. We must get our answers from God. And God speaks today through His Holy Word. The question is, did the People of the Prince that came, destroy the Holy City and sanctuary? According to scripture, the answer is yes! Because when they destroyed Christ, they brought their city to desolation, and destroyed the Temple. Jesus says in:

(next post)

 

[TribulationSigns]

(Continued from previous post)

Matthew 23:37

• "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that KILLEST the PROPHETS, and stonest them which are sent thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

The City Jerusalem is destroyed, left Desolate, 'because' they rejected Messiah who came to deliver them. And not only did they destroy the prophets and servants that God had sent to them, but they would destroy 'the Messiah' that God sent also. God demonstrates this clearly in chapters such as Matthew 21, of the parable of the householder and the vineyard. The Householder is God, the servants sent are the prophets, the husbandmen is Israel, the Vineyard is the kingdom of God, and the Son, is Messiah whom they destroyed. But don't take my word for it.

Matthew 21:38-43

• "But when the husbandmen saw the Son, they said among themselves, this is the Heir; come, let us kill Him, and let us seize on His inheritance.
  
  
• And they caught him, and cast Him out of the vineyard, and slew Him.
  
  
• When the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will He do unto those husbandmen?
  
  
• They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out His vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render Him the fruits in their season.
  
  
• Jesus saith unto them, Did you never read in the scriptures, The stone that the builders rejected, the same is become head of the corner: This is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes.
  
  
• Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Some theologians act as if they've never read these verses before. When Jesus says, O Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, behold your house is left unto you desolate, this is what is in view. The people of the Prince (Jews of Old Testament Congregation at that time) fought against the Messiah. Christ said, He that is not for Me, is against Me. They rejected Him, and when they fought and destroyed Him, they destroyed the City, and the Sanctuary as kingdom representation. And desolation was all that was left of the City. Clearly, the people of the Prince that would come, destroyed the city and it is left desolate because of their warfare. And God's judgement upon the people of Israel (the people of this Prince prophesied to come), was that the vision was sealed up because of this unrighteousness. That is why the Jews IN PART are blind ever since. Their prophets are sealed up, that they have the Spirit of slumber, where blindness in part has happened unto them. The people of the Prince Messiah destroyed their city by destroying Christ. The Old Testament Congregation as become desolate along with Christ's death! They did destroy the temp;e but in THREE DAYS...Christ rebuilt it and gave kingdom representation to the New Testament congregation of Israel the CHURCH so they can go froth to the whole world to bring out fruits (salvation).
So we need to understand that it is all about God and His People, Israel with his salvation plan in mercy and judgment. It is for ALL Saints of Congregation or Covenant Israel, not only Jews of the Middle Eastern city, Jersualem. Nothing to do with evil prince, Romans or future antichrist who sign 7 years treaty (how absurd!). NONE!

Dan 9:26-27
(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Think about it as I am preparing to respond to the verses in black soon.

Thanks

 

[rwb]

Earlier, Covenantee asked me to interpret what the verse in black said. The problem is that the interpreation can't be done without understanding what the red says, too. So here I will respond but for tonight, starting with Daniel 9:24.
Dan 9:24
(24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The problem is when most people read, "determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city," they automatically believe God is talking about the Jews, the nation Israel and the physical city of Jersualem. I am sorry but this is not who God was talking about at all.

Let us be honest and ask this question, who is Daniel's people? We need to go no further than the preceding verse:

Dan 9:20
(20) And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;

The verse says Daniel was praying and confessing the sins of himself and "HIS PEOPLE, ISRAEL." So then, God hath answered our question. The, "thy people" of Daniel 9:24, refers to the people of Israel. But listen, not the nation Israel, but CONGREGATION ISRAEL making up of all Saints from the Old Testament and the New Testament. We, Christians, are also Daniel's people...in CHRIST whom He has made a covenant with! Selah! It is the congregation of Israel that God went on to declare the six purpose of these 70 weeks prophesied and determined upon her, with Scripture references:

#1. To restrain [kala] the transgression (2nd thess. 2:6-7).
#2. To make an end of [chatham] sins (Hebrews 9:26 1st, John 5:18)
#3. To make reconciliation for iniquity (Hebrews 2:17).
#4. To bring in everlasting righteousness.(2nd Cor. 5:21).
#5. To seal up the Vision and the prophecy (Isaiah 29:11).
#6. To anoint the most Holy [godesh]. (Acts 10:38 4:27).

These are all things concerning dealings of God with His People, Israel, in Mercy and Judgment. All of God's people who are Daniel's people! Transgression is restrained, sin is stopped, reconciliation is made for them to bring in everlasting righteousness, Judgement comes upon Israel (Blindness in part) sealing up the vision and prophet, and the Most Holy is anointed. This is what scripture tells us is determined to happen during the final week of Daniel 70 weeks. This is what God, not man, declares! And God says NOTHING about the so-called Anti-Christ coming, A evil leader named Titus, the Romans, slaughtered pigs in a Temple, or the destruction of 70 AD. Not a single solitary word about these things! So the question then becomes, where does these type teachings come from if it's not here in the pertinent scriptures? The answer is, from people who have been taught error, and who don't bother to check the scriptures carefully to see if they 'actually do say' what Theologians claim that they do, and so repeat these errors as if they were the gospel truth!

Clearly, the people of this Prince in the CONTEXT that should come are the people of Israel. Verse 24 says 70 weeks are determined upon 'thy people' and verse 20 tells us who this 'thy people' were. Remember also of verse 20 said that the vision would be sealed up, and the Prophet would be sealed up! We don't need man-made interpretations, we saw by Scripture just what that related to. It is Israel, and her judgement of blindness. Her judgement is of God. Eyes that they may not see and not understand the vision of God's Salvation program (sealing the vision) is judgement of GOD, not Romans putting out their eyes or some antichrist-man, fable. Man cannot seal up the vision and Prophets. Only God can.

When verse 26 says the people of the Prince that comes will destroy the city and sanctuary, it is talking about the people of Israel. Not Romans soldiers of evil prince that someone is trying to insert it in despite what the context says. They are the people of the coming Prince (Messiah), and they destroyed the City. Did not Israel reject the Messiah, and destroy the Temple? For example, the stone that the builders rejected, is become head of the corner, is it not? The Jews of the Old Testament INDEED destroyed the Sanctuary. And this isn't speculation, we have to answer these questions 'Biblically,' not by what we think, or what our teachers told us. We must get our answers from God. And God speaks today through His Holy Word. The question is, did the People of the Prince that came, destroy the Holy City and sanctuary? According to scripture, the answer is yes! Because when they destroyed Christ, they brought their city to desolation, and destroyed the Temple. Jesus says in:

(next post)

(Continued from previous post)

Matthew 23:37

• "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that KILLEST the PROPHETS, and stonest them which are sent thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

The City Jerusalem is destroyed, left Desolate, 'because' they rejected Messiah who came to deliver them. And not only did they destroy the prophets and servants that God had sent to them, but they would destroy 'the Messiah' that God sent also. God demonstrates this clearly in chapters such as Matthew 21, of the parable of the householder and the vineyard. The Householder is God, the servants sent are the prophets, the husbandmen is Israel, the Vineyard is the kingdom of God, and the Son, is Messiah whom they destroyed. But don't take my word for it.

Matthew 21:38-43

• "But when the husbandmen saw the Son, they said among themselves, this is the Heir; come, let us kill Him, and let us seize on His inheritance.
  
  
• And they caught him, and cast Him out of the vineyard, and slew Him.
  
  
• When the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will He do unto those husbandmen?
  
  
• They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out His vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render Him the fruits in their season.
  
  
• Jesus saith unto them, Did you never read in the scriptures, The stone that the builders rejected, the same is become head of the corner: This is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes.
  
  
• Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Some theologians act as if they've never read these verses before. When Jesus says, O Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, behold your house is left unto you desolate, this is what is in view. The people of the Prince (Jews of Old Testament Congregation at that time) fought against the Messiah. Christ said, He that is not for Me, is against Me. They rejected Him, and when they fought and destroyed Him, they destroyed the City, and the Sanctuary as kingdom representation. And desolation was all that was left of the City. Clearly, the people of the Prince that would come, destroyed the city and it is left desolate because of their warfare. And God's judgement upon the people of Israel (the people of this Prince prophesied to come), was that the vision was sealed up because of this unrighteousness. That is why the Jews IN PART are blind ever since. Their prophets are sealed up, that they have the Spirit of slumber, where blindness in part has happened unto them. The people of the Prince Messiah destroyed their city by destroying Christ. The Old Testament Congregation as become desolate along with Christ's death! They did destroy the temp;e but in THREE DAYS...Christ rebuilt it and gave kingdom representation to the New Testament congregation of Israel the CHURCH so they can go froth to the whole world to bring out fruits (salvation).
So we need to understand that it is all about God and His People, Israel with his salvation plan in mercy and judgment. It is for ALL Saints of Congregation or Covenant Israel, not only Jews of the Middle Eastern city, Jersualem. Nothing to do with evil prince, Romans or future antichrist who sign 7 years treaty (how absurd!). NONE!



Think about it as I am preparing to respond to the verses in black soon.

Thanks

TS, I have only one observation/question for you. You don't acknowledge the prophecies to have dual fulfillment, so my question to you is do you believe it was the faithful from Israel that brought all this ruin? I believe when we speak of prophesy, we must take into account how ethnic Israel of Old and New Covenant include believers and unbelievers also. Both Daniel and the Apostle Paul show a great compassion for not only the faithful but also for their kinsmen according to the flesh. Those who brought the nation to its dreadful end, and rejected their Messiah were not the faithful Jews, but Daniel's and Paul's people according to the flesh.

Thanks

 

[PinSeeker]

Gen 7
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

"The flood continued forty days on the earth. The waters increased and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth" (Genesis 7:17).

Hey, I have a question. It's rhetorical, really; no answer necessary... :) Actually, two, maybe... :)

So the waters increased over the course of the forty days... rose significantly, as it were... and the ark floated on the face of the waters, which is why it rose higher and higher. How can this somehow be made into a supernatural lifting of the ark? If I go out and build a boat on a dry lakebed, and I get on the boat and it rains for a few days (much less a month and a half), I'm... probably going to be floating, in the boat, of course, on the water before long. :)

And building on the previous question, is... part of the sky... then somehow under me? Was part of the sky in Noah's day then under the water? Or, in my scenario above, would part of the sky under the water? :) Because then, if it's under water, it's no longer sky... :) I mean, I'm... well, the boat I built is... "bare up" and "lift up above the earth"... ??? :) This is giving me a headache to even think about... :)

Oh, wait. A third rhetorical question. You know, three being a Biblical number, after all... :) So is the water in Noah's story a "type," or a representation of God, or maybe the Holy Spirit, lifting Noah and his family (and the animals)? Because that's actually a complete reversal of the story itself; the flood represents trouble, as in, well, the following:

• "The LORD sits enthroned over the flood; the LORD sits enthroned as king forever" (Psalm 29:10)
• "Deliver me from sinking in the mire; let me be delivered from my enemies and from the deep waters. Let not the flood sweep over me, or the deep swallow me up, or the pit close its mouth over me" (Psalm 69:14-15).
• "...He did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly..." (2 Peter 2:5).
• "The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood" (Revelation 12:15).

The flood is not a representation of God in any sense. I realize this is not what's intended, but that's actually a form of the unforgivable sin, to call good evil and evil good. No, God rules over the "flood," He saves... from the "flood"... is with us and carries us through the "flood"... in the Person of Jesus, Who is represented by the ark in Noah's story; the ark is the "type," or foreshadowing, of the true Savior, Jesus Christ.

And one last thing. There have been many, many floods since Noah's day... :) And they will continue to come until Christ returns. Go into the Ark. :)

LOL!

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Hobie]

"The flood continued forty days on the earth. The waters increased and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth" (Genesis 7:17).

Hey, I have a question. It's rhetorical, really; no answer necessary... :) Actually, two, maybe... :)

So the waters increased over the course of the forty days... rose significantly, as it were... and the ark floated on the face of the waters, which is why it rose higher and higher. How can this somehow be made into a supernatural lifting of the ark? If I go out and build a boat on a dry lakebed, and I get on the boat and it rains for a few days (much less a month and a half), I'm... probably going to be floating, in the boat, of course, on the water before long. :)

And building on the previous question, is... part of the sky... then somehow under me? Was part of the sky in Noah's day then under the water? Or, in my scenario above, would part of the sky under the water? :) Because then, if it's under water, it's no longer sky... :) I mean, I'm... well, the boat I built is... "bare up" and "lift up above the earth"... ??? :) This is giving me a headache to even think about... :)

Oh, wait. A third rhetorical question. You know, three being a Biblical number, after all... :) So is the water in Noah's story a "type," or a representation of God, or maybe the Holy Spirit, lifting Noah and his family (and the animals)? Because that's actually a complete reversal of the story itself; the flood represents trouble, as in, well, the following:

• "The LORD sits enthroned over the flood; the LORD sits enthroned as king forever" (Psalm 29:10)
• "Deliver me from sinking in the mire; let me be delivered from my enemies and from the deep waters. Let not the flood sweep over me, or the deep swallow me up, or the pit close its mouth over me" (Psalm 69:14-15).
• "...He did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly..." (2 Peter 2:5).
• "The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood" (Revelation 12:15).

The flood is not a representation of God in any sense. I realize this is not what's intended, but that's actually a form of the unforgivable sin, to call good evil and evil good. No, God rules over the "flood," He saves... from the "flood"... is with us and carries us through the "flood"... in the Person of Jesus, Who is represented by the ark in Noah's story; the ark is the "type," or foreshadowing, of the true Savior, Jesus Christ.

And one last thing. There have been many, many floods since Noah's day... :) And they will continue to come until Christ returns. Go into the Ark. :)

LOL!

Grace and peace to all.

The Flood was a cleansing of the earth of what it had become, and it is also given as example of how it will be in the last days.
Genesis 6:5-7
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Matthew 24:37-38
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

The 144000 is the last generation of believers that will be alive when Jesus comes back. They are only saints alive when Christ comes who will be redeemed from the earth, the others are resurrected from the grave.

Now the 12 tribes are not literal Jewish tribes but if you look represent all the 12 personalities, we can see it done in Genesis 49. And the order of tribal names listed in Revelation 7 is interestingly different from the normal birth order. Replace the names with the meaning and we get why they were given in that order.

1. Judah --> I will praise the Lord
2. Ruben --> He has looked on me
3. Gad --> Given good fortune
4. Asher --> Happy am I
5. Naphtali --> My wrestling
6. Manasseh --> Making me to forget
7. Simeon --> God hears me
8. Levi --> married to me
9. Issachar --> Purchased Me
10. Zebulun --> a Dwelling
11. Joseph --> Will add to me
12. Benjamin --> Son of His right hand

As we see many times with names in the Bible it means something more and given in this order in Revelation, it sums up Christ's work of salvation for His people.

 

[rebuilder 454]

"The flood continued forty days on the earth. The waters increased and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth" (Genesis 7:17).

Hey, I have a question. It's rhetorical, really; no answer necessary... :) Actually, two, maybe... :)

So the waters increased over the course of the forty days... rose significantly, as it were... and the ark floated on the face of the waters, which is why it rose higher and higher. How can this somehow be made into a supernatural lifting of the ark? If I go out and build a boat on a dry lakebed, and I get on the boat and it rains for a few days (much less a month and a half), I'm... probably going to be floating, in the boat, of course, on the water before long. :)

And building on the previous question, is... part of the sky... then somehow under me? Was part of the sky in Noah's day then under the water? Or, in my scenario above, would part of the sky under the water? :) Because then, if it's under water, it's no longer sky... :) I mean, I'm... well, the boat I built is... "bare up" and "lift up above the earth"... ??? :) This is giving me a headache to even think about... :)

Oh, wait. A third rhetorical question. You know, three being a Biblical number, after all... :) So is the water in Noah's story a "type," or a representation of God, or maybe the Holy Spirit, lifting Noah and his family (and the animals)? Because that's actually a complete reversal of the story itself; the flood represents trouble, as in, well, the following:

• "The LORD sits enthroned over the flood; the LORD sits enthroned as king forever" (Psalm 29:10)
• "Deliver me from sinking in the mire; let me be delivered from my enemies and from the deep waters. Let not the flood sweep over me, or the deep swallow me up, or the pit close its mouth over me" (Psalm 69:14-15).
• "...He did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly..." (2 Peter 2:5).
• "The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood" (Revelation 12:15).

The flood is not a representation of God in any sense. I realize this is not what's intended, but that's actually a form of the unforgivable sin, to call good evil and evil good. No, God rules over the "flood," He saves... from the "flood"... is with us and carries us through the "flood"... in the Person of Jesus, Who is represented by the ark in Noah's story; the ark is the "type," or foreshadowing, of the true Savior, Jesus Christ.

And one last thing. There have been many, many floods since Noah's day... :) And they will continue to come until Christ returns. Go into the Ark. :)

LOL!

Grace and peace to all.

The water covered the mountains.
You are saying a foot of water proves noah was not a mile into the sky?
Gods word backs me up.
Noah left the earth as the bible states and went into the sky.

 

[PinSeeker]

The Flood was a cleansing of the earth of what it had become, and it is also given as example of how it will be in the last days.
Genesis 6:5-7
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Matthew 24:37-38
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

The coming of the Son of Man will be very sudden.

The 144000 is the last generation of believers that will be alive when Jesus comes back. They are only saints alive when Christ comes who will be redeemed from the earth, the others are resurrected from the grave.

Disagree. In Revelation 7, the 144,000 of the first half of the chapter and the innumerable multitude of the last half of the chapter are the same group of people, but showing different things about that group, the first half the true Jewishness of the complete Israel of God and the second half the true number ~ the innumerableness ~ of that same group.

As we see many times with names in the Bible it means something more and given in this order in Revelation, it sums up Christ's work of salvation for His people.

Agree. And who and what we will be, because we will be just like Him.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

The water covered the mountains. You are saying a foot of water proves noah was not a mile into the sky?

LOL! Noah was not removed from the flood. He floated... in a big boat, of course... through it... and in... more than a foot of water. His life was preserved. LOL! Jonah's story is similar to Noah's in several ways, although he was voluntarily thrown into the water, and God used... different means, of course :)... to preserve his life.

Gods word backs me up.

In... your opinion. :)

Noah left the earth as the bible states and went into the sky.

I mean, he was certainly above the ground, yes. :) Far above it. :)

Grace and peace to you.