The 144,000 before God at the end.

[rwb]

Sorry. It is not what Daniel 9:26 talked about. Look at my previous post explaining this.

Now, with due respect, the error of this type of World Event/History/Josephus type eschatology and interpretations is that it misses the point of scripture completely by keeping their eyes not on the Word/Christ, but on alleged history or events. By straining at a gnat, this system causes Christians to swallow a camel. It is a sad fact that most Christians still tend to this "Historicist type" of interpreting in presuming the fall of Israel took place in AD 70, when the Bible tells us plainly that it was at the cross. They miss the point by listening not to scripture but to ungodly Historian named Josephus. So just as surely as the Judaizers missed the point when Christ said "destroy this Temple and in three days I will rebuild it," Christians miss the point today. Neither let God be the interpreter, instead, they were/are reasoning it out in their own minds and through their own interpretations of historical events. There's nothing really different today than it was then. Nothing New.

Because people have their eyes so firmly on physical history and worldly events, rather than spiritual "biblically verified" events, they don't grasp the significance of the prophesy. The same reason Christians have looked for Keyser, Hitler, the European market, The Pope, Palestine, Israel, Russia Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Bush, Saddam, Obama, Trump, and Hamas War, as somehow prophetic. And have been doing so for year after year, always being proven wrong. Because they look to world history and men as interpreters instead of Biblical history, the biblical record, and God as interpreters. It is the age-old error of "unsound hermeneutics" rather than intellect or reason. For example:

Mark 9:11-12

• "And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?
• And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought."

It's not that the prophecy was wrong, it was that their "historicist type" interpretation of it was wrong. The moral of the story, you cannot take a historical biblical text from the period in which it was constructed, and try and force a historical/physical fulfillment based on that text. Just because something in text was stated historically in the Old Testament doesn't mean Elijah would be reincarnated, or a literal/physical city called Babylon was going to either exist, or fall, to fulfill the Biblical prophesy of these things happening. Once we start to practice a sound logical and reasonable system of accepting that "interpretations belonging to God," the Bible opens up exponentially. And we come to see the error of such a historicist (the belief in ongoing historical fulfillment) hermeneutic. Remember, that is why the Judaizers missed the coming of their Messiah. Because they were looking for a historical king that would come and set them free from Roman rule, government and bondage. You will never come to a correct interpretation by applying this biblically historical text from the period in which it was constructed, to the same [type] fulfillment today.

Hope this helps clarify some things.

While I'm fully in support of the spiritual fulfillment as you've laid out here, I also believe that when asked about the building and temple the words Christ spoke to His first century disciples were literally fulfilled when the Roman Army sacked the city and burned down the buildings in the siege that ended in 70 AD.

I believe we err in not understanding a dual fulfillment that was both spiritual and literal. We can't discount how the literal destruction, not the cross of Christ is when/why the ceremonial and sacrificial system came to an literal end, and would never again be reinstated.

 

[rwb]

Not according to Scripture I quoted earlier. Remember the temple has to be destroyed and in three days it will rebuilt. The question is what temple was this? And how did it rebuild in three days? Obviously, it did not occur in 70AD since the New Testament congregation already started with the resurrection of Christ and Pentecost.

I agree, but when asking about Jerusalem and the Temple buildings, the disciples were pointing to physical structures, and the reply Christ gave was that they would all be literally destroyed. We know the spiritual temple, Christ, was destroyed and in three days was raised up again just as the prophets say. But that part of the discussion having to do with the physical destruction to NEVER be rebuilt occurred in 70 AD. It is only through the utter destruction of that "which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away", that it became clear that the Old was altogether gone and the New through Christ had come. As long as the Old remained in place a continuation of the ceremonial and sacrificial Law of Old would keep them from looking to Christ or understanding that Christ came to usher in a spiritual Kingdom of God.

Btw, this understanding of Scripture does not come from Josephus, who was an unbeliever, but from the Bible, along with the historical fact that Jerusalem became an abomination and a desolation before Christ came, and for that reason their final calamity came to pass just as Christ said it would.

 

[PinSeeker]

No
It says who those that satan pursues are.
Jews.
Not gentile believers

But Paul tells us who true Jews really are:

"For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God" (Romans 2:29-29)​

...and tells us who makes up God's Israel:

"...not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring... What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?... a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved" (Romans 9-11)​

all take the mark. All believers take it

Agree.

No believers go through the trib except the 144k...

the number 144,000 is symbolic of the fullness of the people of God and their true Jewish heritage despite hailing from every tongue, tribe, and nation (Revelation 7:1-8), and the actual number of the fullness of the people of God is an innumerable multitude [Revelation 7:9-17]. These are not two different groups, but one and the same.

, and then main harvest jews.
It is Jacobs trouble. Not gentile trouble.

Jacob is Israel, which includes Jew and Gentile. All are one in Christ Jesus:

"Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise." (Galatians 3:23-29)​

"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands ~ remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, Who has made us both one and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:11-22)​

Rebuilder... a very "appropriate" moniker... The wall of separation cannot be ~ will not be, despite the efforts of some ~ rebuilt.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[covenantee]

You just called his ancient covenant, which was only to the HEBREW RACE, racist.
You really bit into the wokeness scam huh?

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

What do you think not of thy seed means?

Only to the HEBREW RACE, huh?

God is not a racist.

Nor can your desperate incessant attempts contort Him into one.

 

[covenantee]

You must be a very confused man who made a false assumption. Where did you get the idea that I am "anti-reformationist" from??



I am not going to play your distraction games here because you have avoided answering the questions I posted for you that clearly refute your preterism doctrine.

Moving on.

The Reformers were historicists, whom you embrace.

As expected, not one example of the specified historical orthodox support can you provide.

You're a classic example of modernist cultism attempting to outrival modernist dispensationalism.

Both to be repudiated.

 

[covenantee]

I agree, but when asking about Jerusalem and the Temple buildings, the disciples were pointing to physical structures, and the reply Christ gave was that they would all be literally destroyed. We know the spiritual temple, Christ, was destroyed and in three days was raised up again just as the prophets say. But that part of the discussion having to do with the physical destruction to NEVER be rebuilt occurred in 70 AD. It is only through the utter destruction of that "which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away", that it became clear that the Old was altogether gone and the New through Christ had come. As long as the Old remained in place a continuation of the ceremonial and sacrificial Law of Old would keep them from looking to Christ or understanding that Christ came to usher in a spiritual Kingdom of God.

Btw, this understanding of Scripture does not come from Josephus, who was an unbeliever, but from the Bible, along with the historical fact that Jerusalem became an abomination and a desolation before Christ came, and for that reason their final calamity came to pass just as Christ said it would.

Amen, bro.

Now be prepared to be accused of having a thick skull.

 

[covenantee]

lol
Paul describes himself as a jewish believer.
It can not be erased

He tells us who Jews are. Romans 2:28,29

He erases your misidentification.

John agrees. Revelation 2:9

 

[TribulationSigns]

While I'm fully in support of the spiritual fulfillment as you've laid out here, I also believe that when asked about the building and temple the words Christ spoke to His first century disciples were literally fulfilled when the Roman Army sacked the city and burned down the buildings in the siege that ended in 70 AD.

I believe we err in not understanding a dual fulfillment that was both spiritual and literal. We can't discount how the literal destruction, not the cross of Christ is when/why the ceremonial and sacrificial system came to an literal end, and would never again be reinstated.

Sounds like you decided to hold on to "dual fulfillment." One spiritual and one literal. Not going to work. Christ doesn't teach that. Sorry.

 

[Davy]

Western Wall of the old Temple complex is still... there today.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I agree, but when asking about Jerusalem and the Temple buildings, the disciples were pointing to physical structures, and the reply Christ gave was that they would all be literally destroyed.

That is what people with carnal minds thought Christ was talking the destruction of physical temple building. This was NOT what Christ had in mind. Just like Christ told the Jews to eat his flesh and drink it blood when the Jews thought He meant literally but Christ was pointing to a spiritual picture. Christ KNEW that his disciples did not understand before received the Holy Spirit.

We know the spiritual temple, Christ, was destroyed and in three days was raised up again just as the prophets say.

Christ's temple of the body represents His congregation that was destroyed. And He rebuilt "IT" with new stones made up of New Testament Saints.

But that part of the discussion having to do with the physical destruction to NEVER be rebuilt occurred in 70 AD.

Doesn't matter. The temple wasn't holy in 70AD to begin with. Wrong temple.

It is only through the utter destruction of that "which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away", that it became clear that the Old was altogether gone and the New through Christ had come.

You are trying to apply the "old" to a physical temple. That is incorrect. God was talking about the Old Testament covenant/congregation being passed away and the New Testament covenant/congregation (the one that Messiah the Prince confirmed a covenant) had come.. All at the Cross. Not 70AD.

As long as the Old remained in place a continuation of the ceremonial and sacrificial Law of Old would keep them from looking to Christ or understanding that Christ came to usher in a spiritual Kingdom of God.

Where in Scripture is it written that the Old Covenant needed to wait until 70AD for the physical temple to be destroyed despite the fact that Christ has already went to the cross, resurrected and came and rebuilt His congregation on third day where He has already established His Kingdom. Seems that you overlooked these in favor for some physical destruction of the temple about 37 years later to satifisy your flawed doctrine?

Btw, this understanding of Scripture does not come from Josephus, who was an unbeliever,

Yet Pretrists used Josephus as an interpreation. Bad mistake.

but from the Bible, along with the historical fact that Jerusalem became an abomination and a desolation before Christ came, and for that reason their final calamity came to pass just as Christ said it would.

Christ was not talking about the desolation of a physical city, but rather he was referring to his congregation as the city that is falling. This is what many of you did not get.

Luk 23:28-31
(28) But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
(29) For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
(30) Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
(31) For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

Luk 13:34-35
(34) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
(35) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

It is important to understand that the physical temple and its stones do not bear responsibility for the blood of the prophets. Instead, it is the people, specifically Christ's congregation, who are responsible. The people of the prince should be held accountable. However, there seems to be an unhealthy fixation on physical structures such as stones, temples, thrones, and nations, just like the the Dispensationalists and the Jewish leaders in Christ's day. It is crucial to focus on the people and their actions, rather than just physical structures.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Western Wall of the old Temple complex is still... there today.


View attachment 37135

Looks like Davy has done his homework that Preterists failed to do. This is just an example of many stones that are still sitting upon other stones within the city of Jersualem since 70AD.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Amen, bro.

Now be prepared to be accused of having a thick skull.

Like the skulls of Jews in Christ's day? Like the skulls of the Dispenstiationists? In other words, they do not have spiritual discernment of the temple and the city that Christ really talked about. What they have is carnal minds that relies on physical fulfillment to build a doctrines upon.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The Reformers were historicists, whom you embrace.

As expected, not one example of the specified historical orthodox support can you provide.

You're a classic example of modernist cultism attempting to outrival modernist dispensationalism.

Both to be repudiated.

You do not make any sense. I use Scripture to disprove the doctrine of Dispensational Premillennialism and all theories of Preterism.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Nope
It is future, as are the flying scorpions, the mark,and the AC.
You can not prove any different

I'm sorry, but your statement appears to suggest a lack of understanding of what is written in Scripture. The events you mentioned, such as flying scorpions, the physical Mark of the Beast, and one supernatural man, are not what Scripture actually talked about. Spiritual discernment is all I can say. Have fun with your wild interpretations that excite gullible people that will never come to pass.

 

[covenantee]

Western Wall of the old Temple complex is still... there today.


View attachment 37135

From the Jewish Virtual Library:

History & Overview of the Western Wall (jewishvirtuallibrary.org)

"When the Romans razed the Second Temple, they left one outer wall standing. They probably would have destroyed that wall as well, but it must have seemed too insignificant to them since it was not part of the Temple itself, just a retaining wall surrounding the Temple Mount."

 

[covenantee]

Looks like Davy has done his homework that Preterists failed to do. This is just an example of many stones that are still sitting upon other stones within the city of Jersualem since 70AD.

From the Jewish Virtual Library:

History & Overview of the Western Wall (jewishvirtuallibrary.org)

"When the Romans razed the Second Temple, they left one outer wall standing. They probably would have destroyed that wall as well, but it must have seemed too insignificant to them since it was not part of the Temple itself, just a retaining wall surrounding the Temple Mount."

The consequence of bad homework.

 

[covenantee]

You do not make any sense. I use Scripture to disprove the doctrine of Dispensational Premillennialism and all theories of Preterism.

Take the next logical step which disproves your own doctrines and theories.

Modernist cultism with no support in 17 centuries of NT orthodoxy.

 

[rwb]

Christ's temple of the body represents His congregation that was destroyed. And He rebuilt "IT" with new stones made up of New Testament Saints.

Spiritually speaking the Old was destroyed through the cross and resurrection of Christ. However, the Old Covenant people that lived on the earth at a time when two opposing Covenants had come to this earth did not have spiritual discernment. The Covenant people of Old were not destroyed by the crucifixion and resurrection, they continued to keep the Levitical Law until there was no longer a physical temple wherein to make ceremonial and sacrificial offerings unto the Lord. Even the Apostle Paul continued to be obedient to the Old Law during his lifetime. But Paul also taught that obedience to the Law apart from faith in Christ would not save them. It would not be until the temple was gone from this earth forever that people understood, through the Spirit in them, that Christ had already fulfilled all that was written in the Law, and through Him alone there is eternal life. It was necessary for the Old to vanish away before the New was made manifest. As long as the first temple remained standing, the way to the Holiest of all (Christ) was not fully known.

Hebrews 9:8 (KJV) The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

This is why the words Christ spoke from the Mt of Olives must be both spiritually understood through Christ's blood, and why the words Christ speaks regarding the physical Temple and buildings of necessity require dual fulfillment, speaking to His disciples throughout the ages.

 

[PinSeeker]

Spiritually speaking the Old was destroyed through the cross and resurrection of Christ. However, the Old Covenant people that lived on the earth at a time when two opposing Covenants had come to this earth. The Covenant people of Old were not destroyed by the crucifixion and resurrection, they continued to keep the Levitical Law until there was no longer a physical temple wherein to make ceremonial and sacrificial offerings unto the Lord. Even the Apostle Paul continued to be obedient to the Old Law during his lifetime. But Paul also taught that obedience to the Law apart from faith in Christ would not save them. It would not be until the temple was gone from this earth forever that people understood, through the Spirit in them, that Christ had already fulfilled all that was written in the Law, and through Him alone there is eternal life. It was necessary for the Old to vanish away before the New was made manifest. As long as the first temple remained standing, the way to the Holiest of all (Christ) was not fully known.

Hebrews 9:8 (KJV) The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

This is why the words Christ spoke from the Mt of Olives must be both spiritually understood through Christ's blood, and why the words Christ spoke regarding the physical Temple and buildings of necessity require dual fulfillment.

RWB, what do you mean in saying that Paul "continued to be obedient to the Old Law throughout his lifetime"?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rwb]

RWB, what do you mean in saying that Paul "continued to be obedient to the Old Law throughout his lifetime"?

Grace and peace to you.

It seems that Paul saw a need to continue to observe the Old ceremonial Law for the benefit of bringing fellow Jews to the Lord.

Acts 18:21 (KJV) But bade them farewell, saying, I [Paul] must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

1 Corinthians 9:20 (KJV) And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

Grace and peace to you as well.