The 144,000

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Trekson.

Hi Witness, Your words: "Are they Jews? Not any more than we are Jews, as we are grafted into to one and the same tree."

The bible tells us specifically who they are and what tribes they are from. They are all national uncompromising jews who will enter the millennium to serve as the future Israeli priesthood. They are NOT the church, imo!

Right you are! Technically speaking, however, (and I'm surprised that veteran hasn't piped up on this), only 12,000 of the 144,000 were Jews, that is, of the tribe of Y'hudah (Judah)!

 

[Trekson]

Guestman, Your words: "It need be remembered that Revelation was written in "signs" and thus much of it is not literal.(Rev 1:1)"

That is NOT what Rev. 1:1 says and you'll never come close to the knowledge of the truth until it is accepted that the vast majority of Revelation IS literal. People get all screwed up when they get lost in the forest of signs, symbolism, metaphors and the like.

Hi Retro, right or wrong the term "jews" is used for all Israelis. Nitpicking terminology doesn't resolve anything.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, whitestone.

We who are the Wife of Christ are the "virgins", as opposed to the jewish harlots of unbelief, who remain unmarried and unpurified in Christ.
Here is another place spoken of us as "virgins"';

(Mat 25:1)

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

The reason the firstfruits weren't to be harvested prior to the fourth day is because it describes Christ who is THE firstfriuts who was in the earth buried for three days. That is the three years not partaking of the firstfruits under the law. It is all about Christ's death and resurrection and our position IN His death and resurrection

Fooey. If you're going to use Matthew 25:1, then you should be aware of what position into which you are putting yourself! These ten virgins were ten ATTENDANTS to the marriage of the bridegroom and the bride! They were part of the WEDDING PARTY, not the BRIDE! The bridegroom wouldn't leave His bride outside in the cold! But, He WOULD leave out someone He didn't recognize! Even the five that were wise were not the bride!

In truth, it is the KINGDOM FROM THE SKIES (the "Kingdom of heaven," which is from "hee basileia toon ouranoon," a Greek phrase that should have been translated as the ablative case and not the genitive case) that was likened to the ten virgins, and this is similar then to Matthew 13! Neither this parable nor the ones in Matthew 13 are about the present! They are about the KINGDOM TO COME! They are about the Kingdom that the Messiah Yeshua` brings back WITH HIM when He arrives for His Second Advent! Consider THIS parable:

Luke 19:11-28
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
KJV

Notice: They were not IN His Kingdom while the King was away! He had gone away to RECEIVE His Kingdom! They were just His servants! And regardless how His opponents sent a message after Him, rejecting Him as their King, He still returned HAVING RECEIVED HIS KINGDOM!

Shalom, Trekson.

Guestman, Your words: "It need be remembered that Revelation was written in "signs" and thus much of it is not literal.(Rev 1:1)"

That is NOT what Rev. 1:1 says and you'll never come close to the knowledge of the truth until it is accepted that the vast majority of Revelation IS literal. People get all screwed up when they get lost in the forest of signs, symbolism, metaphors and the like.

Hi Retro, right or wrong the term "jews" is used for all Israelis. Nitpicking terminology doesn't resolve anything.

Perhaps, but I DID say "technically!" And actually, I DO believe it HELPS to resolve the understanding of these verses.

See, these verses are NOT about the "church" or any such "spiritualized" viewpoint about the "church" (as you've well said), but they need to go back and look at the text! The text SHOULD HAVE BEEN CLEAR to those who think this is symbolic of someone else!

Revelation 7:2-10
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
KJV

Now, if they want to see themselves in the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" of verse 9, that's okay, but the passage is quite clear that we are to understand verses 4-8 as having to do with the ACTUAL, LITERAL CHILDREN OF ISRA'EL, of which Y'hudah (Judah or Juda) is but one tribe (which means "sub-family"). THESE AND THESE ALONE are the 144,000, not all the gobbledy-gook I read above! That's nothing more than allegorical NONSENSE!

 

[Thegoodground]

Who are they?

Revelation 14:4 "These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb."

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Law on firstfruits

Leviticus 19:23-25 "[sup] [/sup]And when ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised: three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you: it shall not be eaten of. [sup] [/sup]But in the fourth year all the fruit thereof shall be holy to praise the Lord withal. [sup] [/sup]And in the fifth year shall ye eat of the fruit thereof, that it may yield unto you the increase thereof: I am the Lord your God."

__________

When the fruit was planted, it was not to be touched for four years. When Revelation is referring to the 144,000 as being firstfruits unto God and the Lamb, it is literally saying that they are off limits, that they are unmolested. That they are virgins and have never been married or laid with a woman.

It is saying "They are virgins" and by the way, "They are virgins". It is saying it twice to strongly emphasize that they are unique in this regard. Are they Jews? Not any more than we are Jews, as we are grafted into to one and the same tree. They are us and we are them. The 144,000 will look like you, they will be of all the many races and they will be unpolluted through the sexualization of this world.

The 144,000 represent the whole number of the redeemed.

This appears from Rev 14:3, where they are styled the redeemed (or those acquired by the Lamb by the ransom, or price paid, even his blood) from the earth. The real, or exact, number of the 'redeemed with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish, and without spot' (1 Pet. 1:18,19), we are told in Rev 7:9, is 'a great multitude which no man could number'.

The title "virgin" is the work of Christ who representing those who were defiled and spotted by the things of this world have now been made clean by the blood of Christ, through faith; this Paul said as being his work:

For I (Paul) am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband (Christ), that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. (2Co 11:2-3)

Notice where Paul's emphasis on purity in the saints (or 144,000) is located?

TGG

 

[Trekson]

So now every time the word "virgin" is used it means the church?? People, God tells us to "rightly divide" the word of truth". Making every occurance of a particular word or phrase and ascribing to it the same meaning or event JUST because it's the same or similar is NOT "rightly dividing the word of truth"!


Retro, How about that, we found something to agree on!

 

[whitestone]

I am a virgin of the Bride of Christ. Now. I am married to Him. In travail and birth pangs I presently bring forth the Son of God, Christ in me. Resurrection from the dead. I am dead, Christ is raised up in me. A New Creation. A New Birthing from the Marriage of Christ in me. This is the Kingdom of God. This is how the Lord Comes. Thank you for Coming and raising us up in Christ as the Firstfruits from the dead, thank you Jesus!

The 144,000 represent the whole number of the redeemed.

This appears from Rev 14:3, where they are styled the redeemed (or those acquired by the Lamb by the ransom, or price paid, even his blood) from the earth. The real, or exact, number of the 'redeemed with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish, and without spot' (1 Pet. 1:18,19), we are told in Rev 7:9, is 'a great multitude which no man could number'.

The title "virgin" is the work of Christ who representing those who were defiled and spotted by the things of this world have now been made clean by the blood of Christ, through faith; this Paul said as being his work:

For I (Paul) am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband (Christ), that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. (2Co 11:2-3)

Notice where Paul's emphasis on purity in the saints (or 144,000) is located?

TGG

Yes. We are the chaste virgins We are married to Jesus. As Rev 12:1 we bring forth the man-child in our lives. It is truly a family affair!

 

[Thegoodground]

Thank you for Coming and raising us up in Christ as the Firstfruits from the dead, thank you Jesus!

Who by him (Christ) do believe in God (Almighty), that raised him (Christ) up from the dead, and gave him (Christ) glory; that your (whitestone) faith and hope might be in God. (1Pe 1:21)

Thank you for your reply.

In his service.

As Rev 12:1 we bring forth the man-child in our lives. It is truly a family affair!

whitestone, would you mind expanding on your above thought?

The Revelation was designed to outline "things which must come to pass" (Rev. 1:1; 4:1); in reference to your quote in Rev 12 it concerns the political birth of a system which the flesh has confused with Christ.

You are aware of this, right?

 

[whitestone]

Yes I am happy to give account of the Gospel

Rev 12:1 is simply one of many references that deals with how we've been saved, as through the child bearing (1 Tim 2:15)

It is the continuation of the ongoing theme of our salvation as laid out in all the O.T. (beginning with Gen 3:16) and N.T., as being born from the union of God and His Wife, the Israel/Church Bride, our Mother, aka the New Jerusalem.
After all, Christ is the Husband to the Church. Just as prophesied. So let's make sure we are married to Him Now and don't put it off. Otherwise there is no chance of being born from above

Make no mistake though, the only reason that someone would say that this is "political" and "future" is because they aren't a believer yet. The only reason someone would think Rev 12 describes a futuristic political system is because some man told them that, a lie and a false doctrine. That is a teaching that robs the word of what it DOES say. Just like I was told that same thing when young and taught it for years also before I learned to read the Bible. I was so embarrased before the Holy Spirit that I ever opened my mouth and mis-represented scriptures about God's Wife! Forgive me Jesus!!

We who are married to Christ (Rom 7) Bring forth the "man-child" in our Life, aka "the coming of the Lord". This is how Jesus described His manner of "coming" to His disciples (John 16).
The union of Christ's Holy Spirit into us, His Wife's "temple body", produces the Son of God within us, aka "Christ in you" as referred to in the epistles. Jesus is "about the work of the Father" in this by producing Sons of His Wife, giving us a Mother (Gal 4, Jerusalem above is the mother of us all)

The entire OT was about God being dismayed at the whoredoms of His wife. So He prophecied through men like Jeremiah and Hosea of the New Marriage Covenant that would come, when He would Cleanse the whore into a virgin, and then Marry her and birth forth sons and daughters of God, through a New Marriage Covenant, which we know as the New Covenant/Testament in Christ's Blood. It is the New Marriage fulfilled as foretold. That is what Rev 12:1 is pointing you toward. We also see her mentioned in Heb 12 and Gal 4 and a couple more beautiful pictures in Rev 21. It is NOW for us who are married to Jesus. It is called "The Gospel".

Now, we who are born of this Marriage Union are brought forth as "New Creatures" aka "New Creation".
As we only speak that which we hear of our Father, so also we speak to others about our Father in Heaven, about our Mother the Church, and how as children, we are being born in the birth pangs and tribulation of a woman bringing forth her firstborn son. That is the picture the Lord gives us of HOW He saves each and every one of us, from day to day, from person to person.

That is purely what it is all about. That is the Gospel

Peace in Christ

 

[Trekson]

I don't know what that drivel is, but it sure as heck ain't the Gospel!

 

[Rex]

Thank you for taking the time to write this post. I shouldn't have lost interest with the OP interpretation of literal virgins and in the next sentience of Rev not interpret literal Jews for the 144,000
You took the truth of the matter and wrote about it very well.
Words of and to the glory of God
I enjoyed reading it.

The 144,000 at Revelation 14 are those individuals chosen by Jehovah God "to be a kingdom and priests".(Rev 5:9, 10) It need be remembered that Revelation was written in "signs" and thus much of it is not literal.(Rev 1:1) It is written in such a way as to make it impossible for who are not God's faithful servants to gain mental comprehension, for Jesus prayed to God, saying: "I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes. Yes, O Father, because to do thus came to be the way approved by you."(Matt 11:25, 26)

And when speaking to his disciples, Jesus told them: "To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted."(Matt 13:11) The 144,000 and the "kingdom of God" are interwoven, for the number 144,000 specifies the number of individuals selected by God to serve in the official positions of "kings and priests" (Rev 1:6, King James Bible) and the "kingdom of God" specifies that it is a heavenly government, unseen to human eyes.(Dan 2:44)

The 144,000 as a new "nation" have replaced the natural Jews that had the opportunity to "become to (Jehovah God) a kingdom of priests and a holy nation" (Ex 19:6), but failed to be loyal, with Jesus saying just some three days before his death: "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But you people did not want it. Look! Your house is abandoned to you."(Matt 23:37, 38)

He also told the Jewish religious leaders: "Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected (at Ps 118:22) is the one that has become the chief cornerstone.(at Isa 28:16) From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? This is why I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you (the nation of Israel) and be given to a nation producing its fruits."(Matt 21:42, 43)

The nation of natural Israel were the ones that God had originally purposed to build his spiritual "temple", symbolically being "builders". However, these rejected Jesus as the "chief cornerstone", and then murdered him.(1 Thess 2:14, 15) Thus, because of their wicked and treacherous attitude as a nation, guilty of shedding the blood of the prophets sent to them (Matt 23:34), Jesus said that "The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits." A new "nation" then replaced the natural Jews, that now consists of not just some Jews who turned to Jehovah God, but Gentiles as well, these being "grafted" in, as in an olive tree.(Rom 11:17-24)

This new "nation" of 144,000 that has been chosen, are "bought persons (with Jesus perfect blood) for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation."(Rev 5:9) These "are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish."(Rev 14:4, 5)

Just as the Lamb represents Jesus as a spiritual sacrificial lamb, so likewise the 144,000 are "virgins" in a spiritual sense, with the "women" being religious organizations of the false religious empire, Babylon the Great.(Rev 17:5) These have no intimate dealings with any of false religion, remaining "virgins".

This symbolic description harmonizes with the requirement in the Law that the high priest of Israel take only a virgin for his wife.(Lev 21:10, 14) Jesus, as God's great High Priest, accepts only as his "bride" those who have remained spiritually chaste, for the apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians: "For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised you in marriage to one husband (Jesus Christ) that I might present you as a chaste virgin."(2 Cor 11:2)

These realize that there is no such thing as interfaith, mixing in with any and all religions. These are warned to "touch nothing unclean" or else these would be rejected as "sons and daughters" of Jehovah God.(2 Cor 6:17, 18)

 

[Thegoodground]

Yes I am happy to give account of the Gospel

Rev 12:1 is simply one of many references that deals with how we've been saved, as through the child bearing (1 Tim 2:15)

It is the continuation of the ongoing theme of our salvation as laid out in all the O.T. (beginning with Gen 3:16) and N.T., as being born from the union of God and His Wife, the Israel/Church Bride, our Mother, aka the New Jerusalem.
After all, Christ is the Husband to the Church. Just as prophesied. So let's make sure we are married to Him Now and don't put it off. Otherwise there is no chance of being born from above

Make no mistake though, the only reason that someone would say that this is "political" and "future" is because they aren't a believer yet. The only reason someone would think Rev 12 describes a futuristic political system is because some man told them that, a lie and a false doctrine. That is a teaching that robs the word of what it DOES say. Just like I was told that same thing when young and taught it for years also before I learned to read the Bible. I was so embarrased before the Holy Spirit that I ever opened my mouth and mis-represented scriptures about God's Wife! Forgive me Jesus!!

We who are married to Christ (Rom 7) Bring forth the "man-child" in our Life, aka "the coming of the Lord". This is how Jesus described His manner of "coming" to His disciples (John 16).
The union of Christ's Holy Spirit into us, His Wife's "temple body", produces the Son of God within us, aka "Christ in you" as referred to in the epistles. Jesus is "about the work of the Father" in this by producing Sons of His Wife, giving us a Mother (Gal 4, Jerusalem above is the mother of us all)

The entire OT was about God being dismayed at the whoredoms of His wife. So He prophecied through men like Jeremiah and Hosea of the New Marriage Covenant that would come, when He would Cleanse the whore into a virgin, and then Marry her and birth forth sons and daughters of God, through a New Marriage Covenant, which we know as the New Covenant/Testament in Christ's Blood. It is the New Marriage fulfilled as foretold. That is what Rev 12:1 is pointing you toward. We also see her mentioned in Heb 12 and Gal 4 and a couple more beautiful pictures in Rev 21. It is NOW for us who are married to Jesus. It is called "The Gospel".

Now, we who are born of this Marriage Union are brought forth as "New Creatures" aka "New Creation".
As we only speak that which we hear of our Father, so also we speak to others about our Father in Heaven, about our Mother the Church, and how as children, we are being born in the birth pangs and tribulation of a woman bringing forth her firstborn son. That is the picture the Lord gives us of HOW He saves each and every one of us, from day to day, from person to person.

That is purely what it is all about. That is the Gospel

Peace in Christ

A great deal of confusion is presented in your post... maybe you would like to reconsider "your" thoughts and simply present the Gospel as Philip did in Acts 8:
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. (Act 8:12)

Explaining the things and the name is another thread.

Revelation 12:

Perhaps no chapter of "The Revelation " has been the subject of more controversy than this one.

It has been used frequently to support the theory of the devil as a fallen angel. It is claimed that "the man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron" is Christ, that the "war in heaven" is literally fulfilled in the heavenly realm of God's abode, and that the "casting of the dragon into the earth," represents the literal ejection of the devil as a fallen angel from heaven, to roam the earth in search of victims.

Poppycock all of it!...the deceived believe these things from the imaginations of their flesh.

And O does the flesh love to imagine a vain thing.

TGG

 

[whitestone]

A great deal of confusion is presented in your post... maybe you would like to reconsider "your" thoughts and simply present the Gospel as Philip did in Acts 8:
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. (Act 8:12)

Explaining the things and the name is another thread.

Revelation 12:

Perhaps no chapter of "The Revelation " has been the subject of more controversy than this one.

It has been used frequently to support the theory of the devil as a fallen angel. It is claimed that "the man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron" is Christ, that the "war in heaven" is literally fulfilled in the heavenly realm of God's abode, and that the "casting of the dragon into the earth," represents the literal ejection of the devil as a fallen angel from heaven, to roam the earth in search of victims.

Poppycock all of it!...the deceived believe these things from the imaginations of their flesh.

And O does the flesh love to imagine a vain thing.

TGG

Your confusion and disbelief and scoffing is noted. I understand.

 

[Rex]

Your confusion and disbelief and scoffing is noted. I understand.

LOL I like it, I'm sure you understand
Proverbs 20:29
Proverbs 16:31

ROTF LOL

 

[Thegoodground]

Your confusion and disbelief and scoffing is noted. I understand.

Others rightly put forward in this thread a woman who is likened to a "chaste virgin" as per 2 Cor. 11:2; Eph. 5:23. She will be (future) presented as Holy and undefiled unlike the woman of Rev 12.

Sadly you have not revealed to us the whole story. Sections of the community had been guilty of unfaithfulness (Rev. 2:20-23), the one time "chaste virgin" is now represented as being with child (cp. James 4:4 mg). note without husband!

For the astute eye you may ask yourself what form of adultery was James speaking too in James 4:4? Physical or Spiritual? This poses somewhat of a problem - best you read Acts 15 to better familiarise yourself with what is actually taking place in Rev 12.

I admire your willingness to see Christ in everything (well done) but in this instance a more sinister event has taken place, whereby Christianity today is suffering terribly.

I do believe it has something to do with creeds, bishops, Caesars and popes...but that’s another thread :huh:

TGG

 

[Rex]

Well said goodground
I apologize for laughing but whitestone was unimpressed with your critical eye.
We all have a little something to share and learn, nobody knows the truth but Christ, and He makes that truth known threw us all.

So I would encourage you consider what a couple of old men might have to say as well.
We may as daffy as a duck but it doesn't hurt to consider the thoughts of others.
there may be some truth to what we say. Just keep the good and toss the bad.

BTW I don't have much gray yet.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Thegoodground.

The 144,000 represent the whole number of the redeemed.

No, it does NOT! The 144,000 are a select number from the twelve tribes of Isra'el! It's not even the whole nation of Isra'el! See, this is the problem that the "Jehovah's Witnesses" had! Their numbers climbed above 144,000 and they had to revise their take on whom the 144,000 represented! It's not the "whole number of the redeemed," nor is it even the whole number of the redeemed among Isra'el! These are a SELECT FEW who are given a special task to perform before the Messiah takes His role as King of Isra'el and World Emperor.

This appears from Rev 14:3, where they are styled the redeemed (or those acquired by the Lamb by the ransom, or price paid, even his blood) from the earth. The real, or exact, number of the 'redeemed with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish, and without spot' (1 Pet. 1:18,19), we are told in Rev 7:9, is 'a great multitude which no man could number'.

RIGHT! And this is IMMEDIATELY AFTER he has just talked about the 144,000! This great multitude that no man could number is IN ADDITION TO THE 144,000!

The title "virgin" is the work of Christ who representing those who were defiled and spotted by the things of this world have now been made clean by the blood of Christ, through faith; this Paul said as being his work:

For I (Paul) am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband (Christ), that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. (2Co 11:2-3)

Notice where Paul's emphasis on purity in the saints (or 144,000) is located?

TGG

No. The word "virgin" means just the same as it does today, one who has had no sexual relations. There's nothing special about the word! Sure, Paul used it for an analogy in 2 Corinthians 11, but that does NOT give us the right (and certainly not the "duty") to apply that analogy to this passage in an entirely different book!

 

[Thegoodground]

Evening Retrobyter.

In forums it is often the case (as you would no doubt agree) where a phrase is written to mean one thing, however interpreted to mean another. Your above response is a point in mention, (caps and exclamation marks included), "some" being correct.

When I wrote… "The 144,000 represent the whole number of the redeemed." You failed to read carefully the word "represent"...when a number "represents" something is not necessarily a literal numeric value as you inferred, but rather, symbolic.

The number 144,000 is a complete number (12x12) and symbolic of the a new perfect government in the earth with Christ at its centre. Actually Zech 12:12-14 is a lovely passage in reference to the context of "families", but no longer mourning, not now that the harp is playing so beautifully in their midst!

In cases like these it is best to ask the question before firing the cannons, so to speak.

By the way have you noticed in Rev 14:3 how the redeemed are singing “new songs?”

There are various “new songs” the redeemed will sing, those attributed to the symbolic 144,000 saints in the Kingdom Age.

Have you noticed the reference to harps?

If you go over to Psalm 98

A Psalm. O sing unto the LORD a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory. The LORD hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen. He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel (unknown number): all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God. Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise. Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm. With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King. Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together Before the LORD; for he (Christ) cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity. (Psa 98:1-9)

This Song is also sung with harps and it relates to the manifestation of mercy and truth toward the “house of Israel” which of course is significant when speaking to the 144,000, as a symbol.

I will endeavour to deal with your comment regarding the meaning of “virgin” shortly.

TGG

There's nothing special about the word! Sure, Paul used it for an analogy in 2 Corinthians 11, but that does NOT give us the right (and certainly not the "duty") to apply that analogy to this passage in an entirely different book!

Interesting.

Am I correct in saying you suggest an anology cannot be used in various books within the Holy Scriptures?

Take for instance the passage in 2 Cor 11:2

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. (2Co 11:2)

Paul here is speaking of purity and holiness is he not?

Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry. (Jer 31:4)

And God here is speaking of the restoration of Israel and the many richess coming to His virgin, is He not?

And yet you suggest its not possible to use this analogy in an entirely different book?

The interpretation of Rev 12:1,2 stands true....she is no virgin! (spiritually or physically) and the thing which came out of her was an abomination before the Lord.

TGG

 

[whitestone]

Others rightly put forward in this thread a woman who is likened to a "chaste virgin" as per 2 Cor. 11:2; Eph. 5:23. She will be (future) presented as Holy and undefiled unlike the woman of Rev 12.

Sadly you have not revealed to us the whole story. Sections of the community had been guilty of unfaithfulness (Rev. 2:20-23), the one time "chaste virgin" is now represented as being with child (cp. James 4:4 mg). note without husband!

For the astute eye you may ask yourself what form of adultery was James speaking too in James 4:4? Physical or Spiritual? This poses somewhat of a problem - best you read Acts 15 to better familiarise yourself with what is actually taking place in Rev 12.

I admire your willingness to see Christ in everything (well done) but in this instance a more sinister event has taken place, whereby Christianity today is suffering terribly.

I do believe it has something to do with creeds, bishops, Caesars and popes...but that’s another thread :huh:

TGG

Yes that is the standard unenlightened presentation out of the carnal mind.

But if you would like to know the mind of Christ and the Revelation of His Wife as shown in the book of Rev (such as Rev 12:1) FIRST read Hosea 1 and 2 to see WHO She is as His Wife, and HOW He cleansed her and married her and NOW has children of God by her.

It has nothing to do with sinister event of creeds and popes. May you put your hand on your mouth and be ashamed of how you speak of the Wife of Christ, you speak as a cretin! Without a Husband you are, without a Father you are! Such a dismal condition you create for yourself speaking against the Spirit and the Bride who say "Come" to you. Off with you.

 

[Thegoodground]

Yes that is the standard unenlightened presentation out of the carnal mind.

But if you would like to know the mind of Christ and the Revelation of His Wife as shown in the book of Rev (such as Rev 12:1) FIRST read Hosea 1 and 2 to see WHO She is as His Wife, and HOW He cleansed her and married her and NOW has children of God by her.

It has nothing to do with sinister event of creeds and popes. May you put your hand on your mouth and be ashamed of how you speak of the Wife of Christ, you speak as a cretin! Without a Husband you are, without a Father you are! Such a dismal condition you create for yourself speaking against the Spirit and the Bride who say "Come" to you. Off with you.

Dont resist whitestone.

This man child represents the beginings of the apostate church. Appropriately, in the vision, the mother never suckled the child!

What *hore would?

But did you notice what she is clothed with? and what is under her feet?

She will be likened to those who feel in the wilderess, her end even worse.

TGG

 

[IAmAWitness]

So virtually you all agree that the "Jews" is literal but the virgin is figurative. That is such an ignorant view. Like someone said earlier about many Anglos being descendants of the Jews, I looked into it and I think that best explains this problem. So it is literal in a sense but just not in the way that we understand it. Father of "many" nations like Armstrong said. There are millions or billions of Jews worldwide.