The 144,000

[Trekson]

Hi Guestman, I don't know which version you're quoting but I would use a different one. I don't deny that symbolism is used in the book of Rev. but they are also usually explained within the context but one must first seek to understand the literal sense, then if that makes no sense, then seek another sense via symbolism or whatever. I checked several other versions of Rev. 1:1 and none of them came close to the version you offered.

 

[IAmAWitness]

Hi Guestman, I don't know which version you're quoting but I would use a different one. I don't deny that symbolism is used in the book of Rev. but they are also usually explained within the context but one must first seek to understand the literal sense, then if that makes no sense, then seek another sense via symbolism or whatever. I checked several other versions of Rev. 1:1 and none of them came close to the version you offered.

His translation reads almost word for word as the New World Translation does. He's likely a Jehovah's Witness as they very strongly need a symbolic Revelation or much of their theology crumbles.

 

[michaelvpardo]

You can watch what you say you degenerate worker of darkness. You are not God and so therefore have no authority to make this determination. Be careful sir, and pray to your God for a tamed tongue.

God doesn't tame the tongue, He's left that up to us to deal with personally. Who exactly is your god? I've seen more than a little vitriol spilled out upon forums like these, but seldom from someone who actually knows the Lord. What is your testimony and who do you say the Christ is? Has He come in the flesh and is He the only begotten of the Father? What is His name and how is He known? These are simple questions, but the answers define who we are and where we are headed. I don't think that Arnie has a problem with making the good confession and if that's true, who are you then to judge another man's servant? To his own master he stands or falls, and the Lord is able to make him stand. So who are you, or who do you think that you are? If you're a brother, then you should be prepared to receive rebukes as these are the way of correction. There's only one man who needs no correction and He was killed upon a cross nearly 2000 years ago. He was perfect as a man before His death, and He remains perfect in His resurrected body as a lamb without blemish or spot, yet now as One slaughtered for the sin of His people. Do you know Him and if so, just how did you come to know HIm? Some people find these questions quite offensive, but no one who knows the truth is ashamed of Him or unwilling to give testimony of His name. So let me put you to the test, for your own good.

 

[Guestman]

Shalom, Guestman.

Nuts. While it is true that the 144,000 ISRA'ELIS are "those individual chosen by YHWH Eloheinu to be a kingdom and priests," it is WRONG to apply that to anyone other than the ISRA'ELIS of whom it was written! There's not as much analogy as you might like to think in Revelation; much of it still is literal and should be taken as literal rather than making ridiculous claims otherwise! Sorry, but you're not going to hide behind a couple of misapplied verses and think to take this out of the realm of challenge! Anyone who is TRULY lead by the Ruach haQodesh is going to see through the fluff and call your bluff!

So, here's your bluff: Those who are God's "FAITHFUL" servants are going to "SEE" that Revelation was written in "signs and that much of it is not literal." That's your claim; SO, if one were to try to challenge that then that person is not one of God's "FAITHFUL" servants? HOW AUDACIOUS! HOW LUDICROUS! HOW HOLIER-THAN-THOU IS THAT?! That kind of tom-foolery just makes my skin crawl!

KEEP IT REAL! Let's look at the context of Matthew 11:25-26, shall we?

Matthew 11:1-30
1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.

2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3 And said unto him,

Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

4 Jesus answered and said unto them,

Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. (Isaiah 35:4-6; 42:5-7)
6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John,

What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. (Malachi 3:1)
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

25 At that time Jesus answered and said,

I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
KJV

The "these things" in verse 25 is not just some arbitrary "things" that you can take a misapply to just anything; the "these things" are the MIRACLES that He performed through the power of His Father!

Baloney! First of all, check your English version of the Bible against the Greek; the word "sacred" in "sacred secrets" is NOT THERE! Someone was getting too verbose in their translation attempt. Second, the "Kingdom of the heavens" is the "Kingdom from the skies!" Furthermore, God's Kingdom is not "interwoven" with the number 144,000 even if 144,000 ISRA'ELIS were chosen to serve in the official positions of kings and priests! And, the "Kingdom of God" (God's Kingdom) is a "heavenly government, unseen to human eyes?" You won't get that from a careful reading of Dani'el 2:44 or anywhere else, for that matter!

There once was a politician making a speech to a tribe of native Americans who was waxing eloquent and promising them all sorts of concessions, and the tribal members were cheering "Hoyadah! Hoyadah!" with every promise the politician would make! This would encourage him to make even broader promises, and the cheers were increasing in volume as he made wide, sweeping gestures in his address. When he was done with his speech, the tribe's chief was leading him across the field to the tent where the chief had prepared a special meal in the politician's honor. As they walked, they were talking and not paying too much attention to the path. Suddenly, the chief grabbed his arm and pulled him to the side. "Careful! Don't step in hoyadah!"

God's Kingdom being a "heavenly government, unseen to human eyes" is hoyadah, brother! When Yeshua` returns He will be a VERY LITERAL KING in a VERY LITERAL REALM OF ISRA'EL, and THIS is the kingdom that one should be understanding from Dani'el 2:44!You can't stop there!!! Read verse 39, too!

Matthew 23:39
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till (until) ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

It's not over for them, and they have NOT been replaced! (More hoyadah!) What do you think determines when Yeshua` returns? Well, according to Yeshua` Himself, it will be when the Jews of Jerusalem can say these words! This is a quote from Psalm 118:26:

Psalm 118:22-26
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O Lord: O Lord, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord: we have blessed you out of the house of the Lord.
KJV

The Hebrew of this phrase is "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH." It means "Welcome, Comer on [the] authority of YHWH!" When they can welcome Him back, then He will return!

Wow! MORE hoyadah! It's getting deep in here! Maybe we can find a pony in all this! First of all, the "cornerstone" of Isaiah 28:16 is NOT the same kind of "cornerstone" in Psalm 118:22! Isaiah 28:16 is talking about a foundation stone, but Psalm 118:22 is talking about the "head stone of the corner" or "of the angle" and is talking about the CAPSTONE of a pyramid!

Second, God's Kingdom is not taken from the nation of Isra'el permanently; it was taken from that generation, yes, and it will remain apart from them until they can say the words above! But, don't think that God has PERMANENTLY removed Isra'el! They are Yeshua`s MISHPACHAH! His FAMILY!

If you think that's all there is to the Isra'elites being God's Chosen Ones, you're sadly mistaken! They are close to His heart! Also, the "olive tree" is ISRA'EL, not the "church" or some group of people renamed as "spiritual Isra'el!" This "olive tree" goes back to the Isra'el as it SHOULD HAVE BEEN and WAS under David's and Smo's (Solomon's) rulership! Believing Goyim (Gentiles) may also be grafted in, but they are grafted "contrary to nature" while Y'hudiym (Jews) and Isra'eliym (Isra'elites) are grafted "into THEIR OWN olive tree!" Be sure to read Romans 11 CAREFULLY!

No! That's not right! The 144,000 are chosen OUT OF THE TRIBES OF ISRA'EL; however, there is ALSO the "huge multitude that no man could number" that is IN ADDITION TO these 144,000. It is to THAT group that Gentile believers belong!

Oh, boy! MORE hoyadah! Just drop the stupid word "spiritual." You're not using the word correctly, anyway. Yeshua` WAS/IS the Sacrificial Keves (a yearling Lamb) for Pesach (Passover)! And, He is MORE real as that Sacrifice than the lambs yearly used for Pesach! These 144,000 ISRA'ELITES are LITERALLY going to be "virgins" in the NORMAL SENSE of the word! And, don't go making some bogus analogous comparison between these 144,000 and the prostitute Bavel (Babylon). You are making more analogy than the text supports!

You don't need to make up analogies that don't exist in the Scriptures. They won't support them, and the analogies are FORCED between books and even between passages within a single book! You're concocting them in your mind, but they don't exist on paper.

The nation of natural Israel have been rejected as God's people. Jesus told the nation three days before he died: "Did you never read in the Scriptures (at Psalms 118:22), ' The stone (Jesus Christ) that the builders (the nation of natural Israel) rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone (of God's kingdom). From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes' ? This is why I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing it's fruits."(Matt 21:42, 43)

Shortly after this encounter with the Jewish religious leaders, Jesus said: "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her---how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings ! But you people did not want it. Look ! Your house is abandoned to you. For I say to you, You will by no means see me from henceforth until you say, ' Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah's name ! "(Matt 24:37-39)

Thus, the nation of natural Israel has been totally rejected by Jehovah God, for they murdered God's Son, Jesus, though he was the promised Messiah or Christ.(1 Thess 2:14, 15) They have been replaced with a new "nation", one that produces "its fruits". And what are "its fruits" ?

The apostle Paul identified them as "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control."(Gal 5:22, 23) The natural Jews do not display in any form or fashion these qualities of the "kingdom", but rather have an independent, militaristic spirit, having never said of Jesus: "Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah's name !"

On the other hand, the new "nation" that replaced the natural Jews have indeed said of Jesus: "Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah's name !" and are displaying the "fruitage of the spirit".(Gal 5:22) This new "nation" is the 144,000 spoken of at Revelation 7:4 and 14:1. They have kept themselves spiritually clean from the "world" of wicked mankind, adhering to Jesus words that they be "no part of the world."(John 15:19)

They have stood up for Jehovah God, telling forth his "judicial decisions" (Hebrew mishpat, Ex 24:3) throughout the earth, as Jesus commanded them, saying: "You will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you, and you will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the most distant part of the earth."(Acts 1:8)

And quoting all of Matthew 11 does tell us anything in particular, but rather after Jesus had condemned the cities of Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum (Matt 11:20-24), then the account now says: "At that time Jesus said in response: "I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes."(Matt 11:25)

These three cities saw no need to change their ways or repent, rejecting Jesus even in the face of powerful works.(Matt 11:20) Thus, they were denied an understanding of Jesus as the promised Messiah in which he proved his credentials by the miracles. Because of their proud, arrogant spirit, though they considered themselves as "wise and intellectual", it was elusive. Hence, they were unable to grasp the "mysteries of the kingdom" that Jesus said that only his genuine disciples would understand.(Matt 13:11)

As for Jesus returning as "a VERY LITERAL KING" is a mistaken view. Have you not read at Hebrews 9, in which the apostle Paul says of Jesus after having offered himself as a ransom "once for all time" (Heb 9:12), then says: "But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the system of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself."(Heb 9:26)

Thus, Jesus will never appear in the flesh again, for by doing so, would make his ransom null and void. He would be taking back his fleshly body that he offered "once for all time". And it is to be noted that Jesus spoke of the "kingdom of the heavens", not ' kingdom of the earth.' (Matt 4:17; 5:3, 10) Thence, the kingdom is heavenly, and that is why those of the 144,000 are resurrected to heaven, being of the "heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1), not earthly calling.

Both Psalms 118:22 and Isaiah 28:16 applies to Jesus Christ as the "foundation cornerstone". The apostle Paul referred to Isaiah 28:16 at Romans 9:33 and 10:11 and established Jesus as "a stone of stumbling and a rock-mass of offense" and further states that "Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone."(Eph 2:20) The apostle Peter establishes that Psalms 118:22 applies to Jesus at 1 Peter 2:4, saying of Christians "scattered about": "Coming to him (Jesus) as to a living stone, rejected, it is true by men, but chosen, precious with God" and then quotes Isaiah 28:16 regarding Jesus at 1 Peter 2:6.

 

[IAmAWitness]

God doesn't tame the tongue, He's left that up to us to deal with personally. Who exactly is your god? I've seen more than a little vitriol spilled out upon forums like these, but seldom from someone who actually knows the Lord. What is your testimony and who do you say the Christ is? Has He come in the flesh and is He the only begotten of the Father? What is His name and how is He known? These are simple questions, but the answers define who we are and where we are headed. I don't think that Arnie has a problem with making the good confession and if that's true, who are you then to judge another man's servant? To his own master he stands or falls, and the Lord is able to make him stand. So who are you, or who do you think that you are? If you're a brother, then you should be prepared to receive rebukes as these are the way of correction. There's only one man who needs no correction and He was killed upon a cross nearly 2000 years ago. He was perfect as a man before His death, and He remains perfect in His resurrected body as a lamb without blemish or spot, yet now as One slaughtered for the sin of His people. Do you know Him and if so, just how did you come to know HIm? Some people find these questions quite offensive, but no one who knows the truth is ashamed of Him or unwilling to give testimony of His name. So let me put you to the test, for your own good.

I do not know God's name. Some say Jehovah. He is revealed in the person of Christ, his only begotten Son who showed us the way to the Father while we were yet lost in our sins.

Who am I? I am a servant of Christ fighting notions of orthodoxy which dominated centuries after Christ, that would have been rejected as heresy by His apostles and held today as salvific, that in their continuation has been brought much misery to the body of Christ and to the world at large, condemning the souls of millions along the way. I am an information specialist voicing beliefs that would have been told 1950 years ago, but not spoken of since.

 

[Guestman]

Hi Guestman, I don't know which version you're quoting but I would use a different one. I don't deny that symbolism is used in the book of Rev. but they are also usually explained within the context but one must first seek to understand the literal sense, then if that makes no sense, then seek another sense via symbolism or whatever. I checked several other versions of Rev. 1:1 and none of them came close to the version you offered.

I have no need to change my version, for the New World Translation is one of the most accurate Bibles that a person can possess. For example, at Revelation 1:1, the Greek master text, The New Testament in the Original Greek, by Greek scholars Westcott and Hort translates the Greek word esemanen as "he showed by signs". This Greek word means to "give a sign, to signify, to indicate."(Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, pg 573, G4591)

Thus, the Bible book of Revelation was written "in signs" so that the understanding of it would prove elusive to everyone except to Jesus genuine disciples, as Jesus said at Matthew 13:11-15.

 

[Trekson]

Well, I believe this is a more accurate translation. Rev1:1 (AMP) "[This is] the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries]. God gave it to Him to disclose and make known to His bond servants certain things which must shortly and speedily come to pass [a]in their entirety. And He sent and communicated it through His angel (messenger) to His bond servant John."

What you translate as "he showed by signs" is what the highlighted part means, imo, and what all the other versions say as well. Imo, when there is a question along this line I personally feel the majority rules.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I do not know God's name. Some say Jehovah. He is revealed in the person of Christ, his only begotten Son who showed us the way to the Father while we were yet lost in our sins.

Who am I? I am a servant of Christ fighting notions of orthodoxy which dominated centuries after Christ, that would have been rejected as heresy by His apostles and held today as salvific, that in their continuation has been brought much misery to the body of Christ and to the world at large, condemning the souls of millions along the way. I am an information specialist voicing beliefs that would have been told 1950 years ago, but not spoken of since.

Okay, your response was somewhat revealing. I suppose that I need to ask this as well. You have called yourself an information specialist, so where does your information come from? Is that your profession or avocation? You also called yourself a servant of Christ, but didn't mention His name, either the Hebrew version, or the Greek translation. The scripture says that God has given Him the name which is above all names and that every knee shall bow in acknowledgement to Him. Don't kid yourself, 1950 years ago there were thieves and liars selling their own version of the truth and spreading false beliefs to anyone willing to listen. What authority do you claim and from where does it arise? If my questioning seems harsh it's only because souls are at stake. Orthodoxy is itself relative to the faith of the ones using the term. Dissembling comments, evasiveness, or abrasive responses, all tend to suggest impure motives. I would think that as an information specialist, you should be aware of such concepts. So tell me, are you selling something? I don't want to be abusive, but pointed, so what exactly is your point? I'll allow scripture to confirm it or deny it and there are quite a few saints reading these posts that are adept with the sword of the spirit. I'll only ask you to keep your communication simple and precise, so a slow witted person such as myself can understand it. Please do proceed.

Well, I believe this is a more accurate translation. Rev1:1 (AMP) "[This is] the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries]. God gave it to Him to disclose and make known to His bond servants certain things which must shortly and speedily come to pass [a]in their entirety. And He sent and communicated it through His angel (messenger) to His bond servant John."

What you translate as "he showed by signs" is what the highlighted part means, imo, and what all the other versions say as well. Imo, when there is a question along this line I personally feel the majority rules.

It appears as though you've cornered a JW, so I wouldn't bother arguing over translations. Just offer the gospel and pray for the man. The brother that lead me to Christ was a former JW, but had his eyes opened while listening to a gospel sermon. The Spirit of Christ spoke clearly to him and since it was his desire to know the truth, he received Him in that moment. The JWs, like most religious folk seek to establish a righteousness of their own. You can help a man to see his faults, but you'll probably get pummeled for it, so if you're inclined to be a punching bag, let it be in His name and for the sake of the gospel. In any event, the word of the Lord will not return to Him void, so may the Lord bless your endeavor. Amen.

 

[IAmAWitness]

Okay, your response was somewhat revealing. I suppose that I need to ask this as well. You have called yourself an information specialist, so where does your information come from? Is that your profession or avocation? You also called yourself a servant of Christ, but didn't mention His name, either the Hebrew version, or the Greek translation. The scripture says that God has given Him the name which is above all names and that every knee shall bow in acknowledgement to Him. Don't kid yourself, 1950 years ago there were thieves and liars selling their own version of the truth and spreading false beliefs to anyone willing to listen. What authority do you claim and from where does it arise? If my questioning seems harsh it's only because souls are at stake. Orthodoxy is itself relative to the faith of the ones using the term. Dissembling comments, evasiveness, or abrasive responses, all tend to suggest impure motives. I would think that as an information specialist, you should be aware of such concepts. So tell me, are you selling something? I don't want to be abusive, but pointed, so what exactly is your point? I'll allow scripture to confirm it or deny it and there are quite a few saints reading these posts that are adept with the sword of the spirit. I'll only ask you to keep your communication simple and precise, so a slow witted person such as myself can understand it. Please do proceed.

On Christ, ho Xristos is the Greek name. Iesou ho Xristos. The Hebrew name is Yashua ha Meshiach or Yahushua ha Meshiac.

On information specialist, that is not what I do for a living. What I was thinking was that my knowledge on religion, philsophy, logic, and debate has pointed me in a direction to where I have certain giftings in delivering a message in inventive ways that others would not be capable of. I am commissioned by God to deliver His words to His people in the last days that otherwise a very few are delivering. My authority to speak these things comes from the Father. On impure motives, I agree with you that these tactics are not conducive to healthy conversation, which begins first with a healthy dose of respect for the one sitting across from you. I appreciate the respect I feel from you and that is why I am responding out of a mutual interest in respect. Basically what I had told about specializing in information was true but not direct. More directly, but less neutrally and more controversially I would have more accurately stated that I am a spokesmen of God, as my information is of a divine source.

I am not selling anything.

What I have noticed here is that very few people accurately understand these verses in Revelation 14. There are six verses pertaining to us and about six more detailing the twelve tribes we would be descended from. It was asked earlier about the seal in the forehead. The seal comes before the trumpet judgments. We are in the period of the seals right now. The 144,000 have not been sealed yet.

 

[michaelvpardo]

On Christ, ho Xristos is the Greek name. Iesou ho Xristos. The Hebrew name is Yashua ha Meshiach or Yahushua ha Meshiac.

On information specialist, that is not what I do for a living. What I was thinking was that my knowledge on religion, philsophy, logic, and debate has pointed me in a direction to where I have certain giftings in delivering a message in inventive ways that others would not be capable of. I am commissioned by God to deliver His words to His people in the last days that otherwise a very few are delivering. My authority to speak these things comes from the Father. On impure motives, I agree with you that these tactics are not conducive to healthy conversation, which begins first with a healthy dose of respect for the one sitting across from you. I appreciate the respect I feel from you and that is why I am responding out of a mutual interest in respect. Basically what I had told about specializing in information was true but not direct. More directly, but less neutrally and more controversially I would have more accurately stated that I am a spokesmen of God, as my information is of a divine source.

I am not selling anything.

What I have noticed here is that very few people accurately understand these verses in Revelation 14. There are six verses pertaining to us and about six more detailing the twelve tribes we would be descended from. It was asked earlier about the seal in the forehead. The seal comes before the trumpet judgments. We are in the period of the seals right now. The 144,000 have not been sealed yet.

Fair enough, you should understand that many believe that the prophetic office no longer exists in the context of the Church. I'm unable to say that myself as I also believe myself called to that office, and I suppose that this is reason enough to tread lightly. However, while I believe that our Lord has called me to such an office, I see my only authority as His word, as there isn't anything more to be said than He has said in His Son. If you go beyond the written word, you make yourself suspect, as this is the common source of doctrinal error and the germinal ground of cults. The Lord provided a rule of sorts for the times and for the seasons which we find ourselves in and which we find in the context of the writings of Isaiah:
To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20

I'm not suggesting that this verse applies to you, but I'm suggesting that it may apply to anyone making the claim to be a spokesman for the Lord, including myself, and so we test the spirits by the standard that we have and by the Spirit within us. I don't pretend to understand very much of the prophetic writings and by no means will despise prophecy, however we all are obliged to seek confirmation of what a man claims against the revelation of Jesus Christ (not simply the book of that name, but the teaching which comes by His Spirit.) I don't always find my understanding in agreement with other saints, but understanding changes over time and with the growth that our Lord adds to it. He told His apostles that he had more to tell them, but that they were not yet ready to bear it. If He showed such grace to His Apostles there's no reason to believe that He'd show us less. Having said this, the Holy Spirit communicates to us through His word those things which the Lord has given for our understanding when the time is right for us to understand them and is no respecter of men. What He tells one, He surely tells another and to as many as have ears to receive it. Some men are better students than others, some wiser, "But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. " 1 Corinthians 27-29
The point that I'm trying to make here is that we bring nothing to God's table. He provides to all and for all, and there is nothing that we have that we were not given, so this should give us cause to bear with one another and with one another's understanding. We live in an age were people often tend to be less than civil toward one another and in the context of the body of Christ we have a commandment that goes beyond mere civility, and those with understanding and maturity should be the last to cause a brother to stumble. These are God's rules, not mine; I'm a far more coarse individual than my Lord and certainly a work in progress, but I tell you that there are very few involved with these forums that are not gifted with discernment, and every one that I would describe as such has divine authority in the person of His Spirit and by the word of truth.

 

[IAmAWitness]

Fair enough, you should understand that many believe that the prophetic office no longer exists in the context of the Church. I'm unable to say that myself as I also believe myself called to that office, and I suppose that this is reason enough to tread lightly. However, while I believe that our Lord has called me to such an office, I see my only authority as His word, as there isn't anything more to be said than He has said in His Son. If you go beyond the written word, you make yourself suspect, as this is the common source of doctrinal error and the germinal ground of cults. The Lord provided a rule of sorts for the times and for the seasons which we find ourselves in and which we find in the context of the writings of Isaiah:
To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20

I'm not suggesting that this verse applies to you, but I'm suggesting that it may apply to anyone making the claim to be a spokesman for the Lord, including myself, and so we test the spirits by the standard that we have and by the Spirit within us. I don't pretend to understand very much of the prophetic writings and by no means will despise prophecy, however we all are obliged to seek confirmation of what a man claims against the revelation of Jesus Christ (not simply the book of that name, but the teaching which comes by His Spirit.) I don't always find my understanding in agreement with other saints, but understanding changes over time and with the growth that our Lord adds to it. He told His apostles that he had more to tell them, but that they were not yet ready to bear it. If He showed such grace to His Apostles there's no reason to believe that He'd show us less. Having said this, the Holy Spirit communicates to us through His word those things which the Lord has given for our understanding when the time is right for us to understand them and is no respecter of men. What He tells one, He surely tells another and to as many as have ears to receive it. Some men are better students than others, some wiser, "But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. " 1 Corinthians 27-29
The point that I'm trying to make here is that we bring nothing to God's table. He provides to all and for all, and there is nothing that we have that we were not given, so this should give us cause to bear with one another and with one another's understanding. We live in an age were people often tend to be less than civil toward one another and in the context of the body of Christ we have a commandment that goes beyond mere civility, and those with understanding and maturity should be the last to cause a brother to stumble. These are God's rules, not mine; I'm a far more coarse individual than my Lord and certainly a work in progress, but I tell you that there are very few involved with these forums that are not gifted with discernment, and every one that I would describe as such has divine authority in the person of His Spirit and by the word of truth.

Fair enough, you should understand that many believe that the prophetic office no longer exists in the context of the Church. I'm unable to say that myself as I also believe myself called to that office, and I suppose that this is reason enough to tread lightly. However, while I believe that our Lord has called me to such an office, I see my only authority as His word, as there isn't anything more to be said than He has said in His Son. If you go beyond the written word, you make yourself suspect, as this is the common source of doctrinal error and the germinal ground of cults. The Lord provided a rule of sorts for the times and for the seasons which we find ourselves in and which we find in the context of the writings of Isaiah:
To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20

I'm not suggesting that this verse applies to you, but I'm suggesting that it may apply to anyone making the claim to be a spokesman for the Lord, including myself, and so we test the spirits by the standard that we have and by the Spirit within us. I don't pretend to understand very much of the prophetic writings and by no means will despise prophecy, however we all are obliged to seek confirmation of what a man claims against the revelation of Jesus Christ (not simply the book of that name, but the teaching which comes by His Spirit.) I don't always find my understanding in agreement with other saints, but understanding changes over time and with the growth that our Lord adds to it. He told His apostles that he had more to tell them, but that they were not yet ready to bear it. If He showed such grace to His Apostles there's no reason to believe that He'd show us less. Having said this, the Holy Spirit communicates to us through His word those things which the Lord has given for our understanding when the time is right for us to understand them and is no respecter of men. What He tells one, He surely tells another and to as many as have ears to receive it. Some men are better students than others, some wiser, "But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. " 1 Corinthians 27-29
The point that I'm trying to make here is that we bring nothing to God's table. He provides to all and for all, and there is nothing that we have that we were not given, so this should give us cause to bear with one another and with one another's understanding. We live in an age were people often tend to be less than civil toward one another and in the context of the body of Christ we have a commandment that goes beyond mere civility, and those with understanding and maturity should be the last to cause a brother to stumble. These are God's rules, not mine; I'm a far more coarse individual than my Lord and certainly a work in progress, but I tell you that there are very few involved with these forums that are not gifted with discernment, and every one that I would describe as such has divine authority in the person of His Spirit and by the word of truth.

On extrabiblical revelation, whatever is revealed outside the canon must be in conformity with the canon. If a prophet offers a word that is not in agreement with the canon, this man is a monster and cannot be believed.

I heard one Renewal and Revival "prophet"/"preacher" from the group deception free posted about say that Jesus had appeared at one of his meetings in his home state of North Carolina. This is easily refuted here:

Matthew 24:23,27 "Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not... For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

One went off the deep end and said his wife, who had had a hysterectomy and was nearly 70 years old would conceive a child. Does that need explanation?

John MacArthur argued in Charismatic Chaos that many charismatics have simplified this rule through, first in having a limited knowledge of the Bible, thinking that revelation that conforms to what they know the Bible says opens up the possibility of it being true. He is right. To weigh these things by the Spirit is a complex process that requires a substantial working knowledge of the Word. The example I gave to you is an easy example but some are not so easy. And even though this is an easy example of testing what a "prophet" says, many Christians will buy into it anyway even though it is so easily falsifiable.

A second rule is that just because revelation does not conform to your opinion of the Word does not make it falsifiable. Matt 24:23 is very plainly meant and understood with no debate as to what it means. Other verses, not so much. You may be certain in your conviction, but that isn't a basis to reject a witness' word.

Spotting holes i their testimony can be difficult. But it may be that God will give you a word on an individual being false and you may not be able to explain how you know he is a wicked servant. But God can give you a word in that way, through discernment.

I will say now to your point about it being the germinal ground of cults. Cults are groups that are antibiblical, extrabiblical, heterodox, and heretical movements. Speculation per se isn't the cause of that. All speculation is lawful, except antibiblical speculation. That speculation which is contrary to the plain literal meaning of the Word is unacceptable.

 

[michaelvpardo]

On extrabiblical revelation, whatever is revealed outside the canon must be in conformity with the canon. If a prophet offers a word that is not in agreement with the canon, this man is a monster and cannot be believed.

I heard one Renewal and Revival "prophet"/"preacher" from the group deception free posted about say that Jesus had appeared at one of his meetings in his home state of North Carolina. This is easily refuted here:

Matthew 24:23,27 "Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not... For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

One went off the deep end and said his wife, who had had a hysterectomy and was nearly 70 years old would conceive a child. Does that need explanation?

John MacArthur argued in Charismatic Chaos that many charismatics have simplified this rule through, first in having a limited knowledge of the Bible, thinking that revelation that conforms to what they know the Bible says opens up the possibility of it being true. He is right. To weigh these things by the Spirit is a complex process that requires a substantial working knowledge of the Word. The example I gave to you is an easy example but some are not so easy. And even though this is an easy example of testing what a "prophet" says, many Christians will buy into it anyway even though it is so easily falsifiable.

A second rule is that just because revelation does not conform to your opinion of the Word does not make it falsifiable. Matt 24:23 is very plainly meant and understood with no debate as to what it means. Other verses, not so much. You may be certain in your conviction, but that isn't a basis to reject a witness' word.

Spotting holes i their testimony can be difficult. But it may be that God will give you a word on an individual being false and you may not be able to explain how you know he is a wicked servant. But God can give you a word in that way, through discernment.

I will say now to your point about it being the germinal ground of cults. Cults are groups that are antibiblical, extrabiblical, heterodox, and heretical movements. Speculation per se isn't the cause of that. All speculation is lawful, except antibiblical speculation. That speculation which is contrary to the plain literal meaning of the Word is unacceptable.

Sounds reasonable and speculation isn't harmful of itself, but may be when presented as doctrine. I suspect that concepts such as the pretribulation rapture start out as speculation. When such speculation has a natural appeal to the flesh, the carnal mind will seek support from the text of scripture where it doesn't actually exist, misappropriating verses, changing meaning, and justifying the abuse of the written word to satisfy carnal desire. If something isn't overtly sinful, it is far easier to justify. Another obvious example is the teaching of obligatory tithing as a requirement for righteousness. We aren't justified by our works and are even warned that seeking sanctification through the works of the law is sin, yet requiring tithing from church members is readily justified by using the example of Abraham, who gave a tithe to Melchizedek prior to the giving of the law, and a few passages from the Apostle which speak of laying up offerings in terms of stewardship. I think such teaching is more than harmful in giving some the misconception that they can satisfy the Lord with gifts while still indulging themselves in carnality. Currently I'm also engaged in a discussion about the possibility of Christians being possessed. Much of the discussion sounds like the most childish hogwash brewed from gross misunderstanding and misinterpretation of scripture, yet I find myself at a loss to present cogent biblical arguments to some of the principles as their minds don't appear to be spiritual at all. I suppose that this is the area of real danger in speculative conversation. That is, someone who is genuinely spiritual, that is made alive in Christ, may understand and follow a spiritual discussion without gross misunderstanding, while a carnally minded person trying to follow the same content may end up with a perverse understanding derived from the same material. The Apostle Paul encountered such problems in the context of his own instructions to the church and was labeled by some as a libertine, and in some ways the grossest of sinners. The carnal mind remains at enmity with God and commonly twists even the scripture to it's own destruction, how much more may this be true, of our own imperfect expressions of doctrine or "biblical speculation." Even if we know the Lord and have a broad familiarity with scripture, we ourselves remain in the battle between our carnal nature and our new spiritual nature. If we indulge in speculation, we are in effect allowing our carnal minds to present ideas which may be not only unsound, but deceptively misleading. You may trust the motives of your own heart, but I find that I am able to trust only in the word and the promises of our Lord, to lead me home in spite of myself and my own evil imagination.

 

[sam]

Rev 14:4 These are the ones not defiled with women, for they have kept their virginity. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They were redeemed from the human race as the firstfruits for God and the Lamb.

"Israel was holy to the Lord,
the firstfruits of his harvest." (Jer 2:3)

" And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand sealed, out of every tribe of the sons of Israel," Rev 7:4)

What is the scope of any arguement?

Apostle John heard the number of those who WERE sealed from all the tribes of the sons of Israel. He heard it 144000.

What reason for any one to question or argue if the israel is in not the 'firstfruit' of LORD's harvest.

 

[tgwprophet]

IAmAWitness... Looks like good seeds are being planted though ideas differ some.