The 144,000

[IAmAWitness]

Who are they?

Revelation 14:4 "These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb."

[sup] [/sup]These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Law on firstfruits

Leviticus 19:23-25 "[sup] [/sup]And when ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised: three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you: it shall not be eaten of. [sup] [/sup]But in the fourth year all the fruit thereof shall be holy to praise the Lord withal. [sup] [/sup]And in the fifth year shall ye eat of the fruit thereof, that it may yield unto you the increase thereof: I am the Lord your God."

__________

When the fruit was planted, it was not to be touched for four years. When Revelation is referring to the 144,000 as being firstfruits unto God and the Lamb, it is literally saying that they are off limits, that they are unmolested. That they are virgins and have never been married or laid with a woman.

It is saying "They are virgins" and by the way, "They are virgins". It is saying it twice to strongly emphasize that they are unique in this regard. Are they Jews? Not any more than we are Jews, as we are grafted into to one and the same tree. They are us and we are them. The 144,000 will look like you, they will be of all the many races and they will be unpolluted through the sexualization of this world.

 

[Rex]

And what does the bible say about the harlots?

Are not the harlots those that go astray and chase after other gods?

Just something to think about

And what does the bible say about the harlots?

Are not the harlots those that go astray and chase after other gods?

Just something to think about

Nice post BTW and timely as well

Not a clue as to who they may be
Proverbs 25:6-7

 

[Trekson]

Hi Witness, Your words: "Are they Jews? Not any more than we are Jews, as we are grafted into to one and the same tree."

The bible tells us specifically who they are and what tribes they are from. They are all national uncompromising jews who will enter the millennium to serve as the future Israeli priesthood. They are NOT the church, imo!

 

[Rex]

Hi Witness, Your words: "Are they Jews? Not any more than we are Jews, as we are grafted into to one and the same tree."

The bible tells us specifically who they are and what tribes they are from. They are all national uncompromising jews who will enter the millennium to serve as the future Israeli priesthood. They are NOT the church, imo!

I'll stand behind that as well,
good ppoint Trekson

I'll leave you to wonder which statement is true

or both

 

[IAmAWitness]

And what does the bible say about the harlots?

Are not the harlots those that go astray and chase after other gods?

Just something to think about

And what does the bible say about the harlots?

Are not the harlots those that go astray and chase after other gods?

Just something to think about

Nice post BTW and timely as well

Not a clue as to who they may be
Proverbs 25:6-7

The point being that everything is interpreted within context and the context here is explicit literal. Your symbolic approach is right in a number of cases but here it would not apply as there is nothing that implies anything besides a literal interpretation.

Hi Witness, Your words: "Are they Jews? Not any more than we are Jews, as we are grafted into to one and the same tree."

The bible tells us specifically who they are and what tribes they are from. They are all national uncompromising jews who will enter the millennium to serve as the future Israeli priesthood. They are NOT the church, imo!

Good point bold. Your interpretation is a mathematical impossibility. There are not 144,000 male Jewish virgins who can fulfill this prophecy. Again, it is the church.

 

[Rex]

The Lord just led me to read this.
I was going to post it in Warrior's thread.
And thanks for the reply and opinion, you've gotten me to thinking.

50 The word that the Lord spoke against Babylon and against the land of the Chaldeans by Jeremiah the prophet.

[sup]2 [/sup]“Declare among the nations,
Proclaim, and set up a standard;
Proclaim—do not conceal it—
Say, ‘Babylon is taken, Bel is shamed.
Merodach[sup][a][/sup] is broken in pieces;
Her idols are humiliated,
Her images are broken in pieces.’
[sup]3 [/sup]For out of the north a nation comes up against her,
Which shall make her land desolate,
And no one shall dwell therein.
They shall move, they shall depart,
Both man and beast.

[sup]4 [/sup]“In those days and in that time,” says the Lord,
“The children of Israel shall come,
They and the children of Judah together;
With continual weeping they shall come,
And seek the Lord their God.
[sup]5 [/sup]They shall ask the way to Zion,
With their faces toward it, saying,
‘Come and let us join ourselves to the Lord
In a perpetual covenant
That will not be forgotten.’

[sup]6 [/sup]“My people have been lost sheep.
Their shepherds have led them astray;
They have turned them away on the mountains.
They have gone from mountain to hill;
They have forgotten their resting place.
[sup]7 [/sup]All who found them have devoured them;
And their adversaries said, ‘We have not offended,
Because they have sinned against the Lord, the habitation of justice,
The Lord, the hope of their fathers.’

[sup]8 [/sup]“Move from the midst of Babylon,
Go out of the land of the Chaldeans;
And be like the rams before the flocks.
[sup]9 [/sup]For behold, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon
An assembly of great nations from the north country,
And they shall array themselves against her;
From there she shall be captured.
Their arrows shall be like those of an expert warrior;[sup][b][/sup]
None shall return in vain.
[sup]10 [/sup]And Chaldea shall become plunder;
All who plunder her shall be satisfied,” says the Lord.

[sup]11 [/sup]“Because you were glad, because you rejoiced,
You destroyers of My heritage,
Because you have grown fat like a heifer threshing grain,
And you bellow like bulls,
[sup]12 [/sup]Your mother shall be deeply ashamed;
She who bore you shall be ashamed.
Behold, the least of the nations shall be a wilderness,
A dry land and a desert.
[sup]13 [/sup]Because of the wrath of the Lord
She shall not be inhabited,
But she shall be wholly desolate.
Everyone who goes by Babylon shall be horrified
And hiss at all her plagues.

[sup]14 [/sup]“Put yourselves in array against Babylon all around,
All you who bend the bow;
Shoot at her, spare no arrows,
For she has sinned against the Lord.
[sup]15 [/sup]Shout against her all around;
She has given her hand,
Her foundations have fallen,
Her walls are thrown down;
For it is the vengeance of the Lord.
Take vengeance on her.
As she has done, so do to her.
[sup]16 [/sup]Cut off the sower from Babylon,
And him who handles the sickle at harvest time.
For fear of the oppressing sword
Everyone shall turn to his own people,
And everyone shall flee to his own land.

[sup]17 [/sup]“Israel is like scattered sheep;
The lions have driven him away.
First the king of Assyria devoured him;
Now at last this Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon has broken his bones.”
[sup]18 [/sup]Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel:

“Behold, I will punish the king of Babylon and his land,
As I have punished the king of Assyria.
[sup]19 [/sup]But I will bring back Israel to his home,
And he shall feed on Carmel and Bashan;
His soul shall be satisfied on Mount Ephraim and Gilead.
[sup]20 [/sup]In those days and in that time,” says the Lord,
“The iniquity of Israel shall be sought, but there shall be none;
And the sins of Judah, but they shall not be found;
For I will pardon those whom I preserve.

[sup]21 [/sup]“Go up against the land of Merathaim, against it,
And against the inhabitants of Pekod.
Waste and utterly destroy them,” says the Lord,
“And do according to all that I have commanded you.
[sup]22 [/sup]A sound of battle is in the land,
And of great destruction.
[sup]23 [/sup]How the hammer of the whole earth has been cut apart and broken!
How Babylon has become a desolation among the nations!
[sup]24 [/sup]I have laid a snare for you;
You have indeed been trapped, O Babylon,
And you were not aware;
You have been found and also caught,
Because you have contended against the Lord.
[sup]25 [/sup]The Lord has opened His armory,
And has brought out the weapons of His indignation;
For this is the work of the Lord God of hosts
In the land of the Chaldeans.
[sup]26 [/sup]Come against her from the farthest border;
Open her storehouses;
Cast her up as heaps of ruins,
And destroy her utterly;
Let nothing of her be left.
[sup]27 [/sup]Slay all her bulls,
Let them go down to the slaughter.
Woe to them!
For their day has come, the time of their punishment.
[sup]28 [/sup]The voice of those who flee and escape from the land of Babylon
Declares in Zion the vengeance of the Lord our God,
The vengeance of His temple.

[sup]29 [/sup]“Call together the archers against Babylon.
All you who bend the bow, encamp against it all around;
Let none of them escape.[sup][c][/sup]
Repay her according to her work;
According to all she has done, do to her;
For she has been proud against the Lord,
Against the Holy One of Israel.
[sup]30 [/sup]Therefore her young men shall fall in the streets,
And all her men of war shall be cut off in that day,” says the Lord.
[sup]31 [/sup]“Behold, I am against you,
O most haughty one!” says the Lord God of hosts;
“For your day has come,
The time that I will punish you.[sup][d][/sup]
[sup]32 [/sup]The most proud shall stumble and fall,
And no one will raise him up;
I will kindle a fire in his cities,
And it will devour all around him.”
[sup]33 [/sup]Thus says the Lord of hosts:

“The children of Israel were oppressed,
Along with the children of Judah;
All who took them captive have held them fast;
They have refused to let them go.
[sup]34 [/sup]Their Redeemer is strong;
The Lord of hosts is His name.
He will thoroughly plead their case,
That He may give rest to the land,
And disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon.

[sup]35 [/sup]“A sword is against the Chaldeans,” says the Lord,
“Against the inhabitants of Babylon,
And against her princes and her wise men.
[sup]36 [/sup]A sword is against the soothsayers, and they will be fools.
A sword is against her mighty men, and they will be dismayed.
[sup]37 [/sup]A sword is against their horses,
Against their chariots,
And against all the mixed peoples who are in her midst;
And they will become like women.
A sword is against her treasures, and they will be robbed.
[sup]38 [/sup]A drought[sup][e][/sup] is against her waters, and they will be dried up.
For it is the land of carved images,
And they are insane with their idols.

[sup]39 [/sup]“Therefore the wild desert beasts shall dwell there with the jackals,
And the ostriches shall dwell in it.
It shall be inhabited no more forever,
Nor shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation.
[sup]40 [/sup]As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah
And their neighbors,” says the Lord,
“So no one shall reside there,
Nor son of man dwell in it.

[sup]41 [/sup]“Behold, a people shall come from the north,
And a great nation and many kings
Shall be raised up from the ends of the earth.
[sup]42 [/sup]They shall hold the bow and the lance;
They are cruel and shall not show mercy.
Their voice shall roar like the sea;
They shall ride on horses,
Set in array, like a man for the battle,
Against you, O daughter of Babylon.

[sup]43 [/sup]“The king of Babylon has heard the report about them,
And his hands grow feeble;
Anguish has taken hold of him,
Pangs as of a woman in childbirth.

[sup]44 [/sup]“Behold, he shall come up like a lion from the floodplain[sup][f][/sup] of the Jordan
Against the dwelling place of the strong;
But I will make them suddenly run away from her.
And who is a chosen man that I may appoint over her?
For who is like Me?
Who will arraign Me?
And who is that shepherd
Who will withstand Me?”

[sup]45 [/sup]Therefore hear the counsel of the Lord that He has taken against Babylon,
And His purposes that He has proposed against the land of the Chaldeans:
Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out;
Surely He will make their dwelling place desolate with them.
[sup]46 [/sup]At the noise of the taking of Babylon
The earth trembles,
And the cry is heard among the nations.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Witness, Your words: "Your interpretation is a mathematical impossibility. There are not 144,000 male Jewish virgins who can fulfill this prophecy. Again, it is the church."

Mathematically impossible?? Of course not! There are millions of jews and probably millions of others who don't realize they have jewish ancestory from the other ten tribes. Are you forgetting that 13 is the age of manhood in Judaism? I'm sure God knows who each and every one of those are and nothing is impossible for God. They don't all have to be residing in Israel you know. They'll be from all parts of the world.

 

[Rex]

The point being that everything is interpreted within context and the context here is explicit literal. Your symbolic approach is right in a number of cases but here it would not apply as there is nothing that implies anything besides a literal interpretation.



Good point bold. Your interpretation is a mathematical impossibility. There are not 144,000 male Jewish virgins who can fulfill this prophecy. Again, it is the church.

Listen to me young man. You just contradicted yourself. You say I can not interpret the biblical meaning It must be literal.

The point being that everything is interpreted within context and the context here is explicit literal.

In the same post you tell trekson that he can not interpret literal Jews its the church.

Good point bold. Your interpretation is a mathematical impossibility. There are not 144,000 male Jewish virgins who can fulfill this prophecy. Again, it is the church.

I would encourage you to mean what you say and say what you mean.

No wonder your 24 and going gray

I'm going down to the beach to wait for the drunk hottie riding a beast

 

[John_8:32]

Who are they?

Revelation 14:4 "These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb."

[sup] [/sup]These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Law on firstfruits

Leviticus 19:23-25 "[sup] [/sup]And when ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised: three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you: it shall not be eaten of. [sup] [/sup]But in the fourth year all the fruit thereof shall be holy to praise the Lord withal. [sup] [/sup]And in the fifth year shall ye eat of the fruit thereof, that it may yield unto you the increase thereof: I am the Lord your God."

__________

When the fruit was planted, it was not to be touched for four years. When Revelation is referring to the 144,000 as being firstfruits unto God and the Lamb, it is literally saying that they are off limits, that they are unmolested. That they are virgins and have never been married or laid with a woman.

It is saying "They are virgins" and by the way, "They are virgins". It is saying it twice to strongly emphasize that they are unique in this regard. Are they Jews? Not any more than we are Jews, as we are grafted into to one and the same tree. They are us and we are them. The 144,000 will look like you, they will be of all the many races and they will be unpolluted through the sexualization of this world.

I think this is a metaphor, here is what this passage is speaking to...


Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

A great false religion that has had concourse with governments and rulers and has instigated and supervised the martyr of saints.

 

[Rex]

I think this is a metaphor, here is what this passage is speaking to...


Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

A great false religion that has had concourse with governments and rulers and has instigated and supervised the martyr of saints.

It nice to someone practicing a bit of prudence when handling these passages.
I'm thankful that the prophet experts haven't rushed in correcting and proclaiming understanding from A-Z
Were all imperfect men in search of the perfect truth, some of us anyway.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Actually 144,000 is a misinterpritation of the orginal Greek. It actually reads14. There is Jesus, then the twelve apostle...and....well modesty fobids me to to say....grin.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Justin Mangonel.

Actually 144,000 is a misinterpritation of the orginal Greek. It actually reads14. There is Jesus, then the twelve apostle...and....well modesty fobids me to to say....grin.

Cute. LOL!

Nah, the Greek is good: "hekaton tesserakonta tessares chiliades" = "a-hundred forty four thousands."

 

[IAmAWitness]

It nice to someone practicing a bit of prudence when handling these passages.
I'm thankful that the prophet experts haven't rushed in correcting and proclaiming understanding from A-Z
Were all imperfect men in search of the perfect truth, some of us anyway.

Except he's wrong. Wrong about Revelation 17 and Revelation 14.

Listen to me young man. You just contradicted yourself. You say I can not interpret the biblical meaning It must be literal.


In the same post you tell trekson that he can not interpret literal Jews its the church.


I would encourage you to mean what you say and say what you mean.

No wonder your* 24 and going gray

ad hominem

ad hominem, misspelling*

You pose a very good question that I noticed a long time ago. What do you propose? You say that we should take "women" figuratively but that we should consider the Jewish part to be literal. Which is no different from what I have done. But I have an answer for you but because of the disrespect I am witnessing here from members of this site, I am going to cease offering my insight to the ignorant.

Hi Witness, Your words: "Your interpretation is a mathematical impossibility. There are not 144,000 male Jewish virgins who can fulfill this prophecy. Again, it is the church."

Mathematically impossible?? Of course not! There are millions of jews and probably millions of others who don't realize they have jewish ancestory from the other ten tribes. Are you forgetting that 13 is the age of manhood in Judaism? I'm sure God knows who each and every one of those are and nothing is impossible for God. They don't all have to be residing in Israel you know. They'll be from all parts of the world.

Your theory is predicated on the idea that anything is possible with God, which is very demonstrably false. Can God create a stone so big He could not lift it? Of course not, because that would be impossible. It is impossible for God to lie or be tempted with evil and probably other things which with God it is impossible. So no, not everything is possible with God because there are still impossible things which are always impossible. The 10 tribes are irrelevant here because Revelation delineates the 12 tribes from which they are from.

 

[tgwprophet]

Trekson. i stand in agreement with you, in that there are 144,00 and they are from the tribes of Israel asn they can be from all over the globe, but they certainly are Jews. I have no clue as to why Witnesses thinks otherwise. I may also add... These 144,000 may possibly comprise some females as it only states they will be virigns and not defiled by women, never stated - only assumed, is their gender.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, IAmAWitness.

Except he's wrong. Wrong about Revelation 17 and Revelation 14.



ad hominem

ad hominem, misspelling*

You pose a very good question that I noticed a long time ago. What do you propose? You say that we should take "women" figuratively but that we should consider the Jewish part to be literal. Which is no different from what I have done. But I have an answer for you but because of the disrespect I am witnessing here from members of this site, I am going to cease offering my insight to the ignorant.




Your theory is predicated on the idea that anything is possible with God, which is very demonstrably false. Can God create a stone so big He could not lift it? Of course not, because that would be impossible. It is impossible for God to lie or be tempted with evil and probably other things which with God it is impossible. So no, not everything is possible with God because there are still impossible things which are always impossible. The 10 tribes are irrelevant here because Revelation delineates the 12 tribes from which they are from.

Now, you've done it! You've engaged in pilpul (pronounced "peel-POOL"), Jewish hair-splitting argumentation! "Can God create a stone so big He could not lift it?" The answer, according to pilpul would be "Yes and/or no!" Yes, He could create a stone so big that it would FILL THE UNIVERSE and there would be no place left TO lift it, and then He could create MORE space and lift it anyway! "NOTHING is impossible with God!" The more important question is "WHY would He create such a stone?" It serves no purpose, and therefore, God does not choose to do it.

"It is impossible for God to lie or be tempted with evil and probably other things which with God it is impossible." Here, you must understand that God IS the SOURCE of His attributes while a man is NOT the source of his characteristics. Thus, the attributes of God are things about God that we ATTRIBUTE to Him! But, we are CHARACTERIZED by our traits. God's eternality, for instance, is what HE IS! HE IS ETERNAL, ever-existing, as seen in His Name, "YHWH," "I AM!" No matter WHEN a person talks about God, His Name is still "YHWH!" So, now let's cut to the chase and talk about God's ATTRIBUTE of RIGHTEOUSNESS!

God's RIGHTEOUSNESS is who He IS! There is no evil in God! Yet, God also defines what is REAL! Human beings' "reality" is only through the perception they have with their five senses. Thus, it is WE who live in a "dream world!" As such, RIGHTEOUSNESS is what is REAL; sin is the deception of our nightmares. Sin is the "HOLE in the doughnut" of God's attribute of righteousness! Sin SEEMS real to us, but it is really the hole that is left by the absence of the opposite righteousness! Therefore, lying is the absence of truth; stealing is the absence of giving; adultery is the absence of faithfulness; hatred is the absence of love! All of these sins are the HOLE in the opposite, positive ATTRIBUTE of God! Therefore, there is no contradiction to say "all things are possible with God" and "God cannot sin," because to say "God cannot sin" is to say that God cannot do less than is His NATURE to do! That's why it is true when one says, "It is impossible for God to lie or be tempted with evil!" It's because the evil is not something that God IS!

I HAD to bring this up because it is VERY important that one NEVER limits (in his thinking) the Almighty God, El Elyon! When one says that there is something that God cannot do, he is LIMITING GOD! Therefore, for the sake of your faith, it is important that you understand the nature of evil. It is not a negative thing to do; it is a positive thing LEFT UNDONE!

 

[whitestone]

Who are they?

Revelation 14:4 "These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb."

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Law on firstfruits

Leviticus 19:23-25 "[sup] [/sup]And when ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised: three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you: it shall not be eaten of. [sup] [/sup]But in the fourth year all the fruit thereof shall be holy to praise the Lord withal. [sup] [/sup]And in the fifth year shall ye eat of the fruit thereof, that it may yield unto you the increase thereof: I am the Lord your God."

__________

When the fruit was planted, it was not to be touched for four years. When Revelation is referring to the 144,000 as being firstfruits unto God and the Lamb, it is literally saying that they are off limits, that they are unmolested. That they are virgins and have never been married or laid with a woman.

It is saying "They are virgins" and by the way, "They are virgins". It is saying it twice to strongly emphasize that they are unique in this regard. Are they Jews? Not any more than we are Jews, as we are grafted into to one and the same tree. They are us and we are them. The 144,000 will look like you, they will be of all the many races and they will be unpolluted through the sexualization of this world.

We who are the Wife of Christ are the "virgins", as opposed to the jewish harlots of unbelief, who remain unmarried and unpurified in Christ.
Here is another place spoken of us as "virgins"';

(Mat 25:1)

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

The reason the firstfruits weren't to be harvested prior to the fourth day is because it describes Christ who is THE firstfriuts who was in the earth buried for three days. That is the three years not partaking of the firstfruits under the law. It is all about Christ's death and resurrection and our position IN His death and resurrection

 

[neophyte]

symbolic numbers ,[ 12 tribes, 12 apostles ]. and one thousand , multiples of these numbers also signify wholeness or completeness. One of the numbers which fit into this group is the number 144,000 [ 12 x 12 x 1,000 ]. The number 144, 000 is not to be read as finite but as infinite. All of God's servants were already saved. The Book of Revelation is difficult for the unlearned to interpret correctly.

Numbers which symbolize incompleteness are any fraction, six [ one less than seven and 1/2 of twelve so very imperfect ], or numbers which are fractions of days or years [ 3 1/2 days, 43 months or 1,260 days because they represent 3 1/2 years ] So when one reads;[ Rev. 11:3-4 ]
one does not become discouraged because the persecution will be so long . Rather one becomes hopeful because the persecution, far from being interminable, is limited in duration and will end.
the number 666is another symbolic number. The Book of Rev. describes the persecutions which the people have experienced in these words: [ Rev. 13: 14-18 ]
The # 666, or 616 as it sometimes appears, is interpreted by many commentators to be Caesar Nero or Caesar God. In Greek and Hebrew , letters were used for numbers. The numerical value of each letter was determined by its place in the alphabet. The number of a person's name could be obtained by adding up the numerical value of each of the letters in the name.

 

[tgwprophet]

IAmAWitness wrote: " Your theory is predicated on the idea that anything is possible with God, which is very demonstrably false. Can God create a stone so big He could not lift it? Of course not, because that would be impossible. It is impossible for God to lie or be tempted with evil and probably other things which with God it is impossible. So no, not everything is possible with God because there are still impossible things which are always impossible. The 10 tribes are irrelevant here because Revelation delineates the 12 tribes from which they are from. "

This is a partial paradox often used by atheists to dis-prove the existance of God. Now IF God created a stone so large he could not lift it.. how would one know unless one saw it? This means God would also have to create and even bigger stone on which to stand and for the first stone to reside. This means the paradox is in error and therefore not a paradox, for it requires another stone thus ivalidating that paradox and requiring yet another "paradox." I explained it this way to show a paradox is not a paradox if it needs alteration, even though there are other ways to destroy this paradox. When one destroys atheists paradoxes ( or other Godless people's paradoxes ) it reveals their underbellys for their destruction. What next - Their resolve is to resort to yet another paradox until they find one that they think has no answer? We need not go there as we have already shown they swim in denial... Denail withOut P roof or E vidence.


" Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God ".... Certainly, that means God CAN be tempted... and that tempting must then surely be evil.

Neophyte wrote: " The # 666, or 616 as it sometimes appears, is interpreted by many commentators to be Caesar Nero or Caesar God. In Greek and Hebrew , letters were used for numbers. The numerical value of each letter was determined by its place in the alphabet. The number of a person's name could be obtained by adding up the numerical value of each of the letters in the name. "

Along time ago I tried to arrive at 666 by several methods of math to obtian a connection in the greek alphabet and was un-successful... how did you arrive at 666 by the placement of the letter in the alphabet? Can you display it here?

 

[neophyte]

IAmAWitness wrote: " Your theory is predicated on the idea that anything is possible with God, which is very demonstrably false. Can God create a stone so big He could not lift it? Of course not, because that would be impossible. It is impossible for God to lie or be tempted with evil and probably other things which with God it is impossible. So no, not everything is possible with God because there are still impossible things which are always impossible. The 10 tribes are irrelevant here because Revelation delineates the 12 tribes from which they are from. "

This is a partial paradox often used by atheists to dis-prove the existance of God. Now IF God created a stone so large he could not lift it.. how would one know unless one saw it? This means God would also have to create and even bigger stone on which to stand and for the first stone to reside. This means the paradox is in error and therefore not a paradox, for it requires another stone thus ivalidating that paradox and requiring yet another "paradox." I explained it this way to show a paradox is not a paradox if it needs alteration, even though there are other ways to destroy this paradox. When one destroys atheists paradoxes ( or other Godless people's paradoxes ) it reveals their underbellys for their destruction. What next - Their resolve is to resort to yet another paradox until they find one that they think has no answer? We need not go there as we have already shown they swim in denial... Denail withOut P roof or E vidence.


" Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God ".... Certainly, that means God CAN be tempted... and that tempting must then surely be evil.

Neophyte wrote: " The # 666, or 616 as it sometimes appears, is interpreted by many commentators to be Caesar Nero or Caesar God. In Greek and Hebrew , letters were used for numbers. The numerical value of each letter was determined by its place in the alphabet. The number of a person's name could be obtained by adding up the numerical value of each of the letters in the name. "

Along time ago I tried to arrive at 666 by several methods of math to obtian a connection in the greek alphabet and was un-successful... how did you arrive at 666 by the placement of the letter in the alphabet? Can you display it here?

Terry, It is possible that you perhaps used the wrong Greek- Peter the Rock
can only be found in Attic Greek, but the New Testament was written in Koine Greek—an entirely different dialect. In Koine Greek, both petros and petra simply meant "rock." If Jesus ... you don’t know any Greek. That’s the trouble with your Church and with your scholars. You people don’t ...

 

[Guestman]

The 144,000 at Revelation 14 are those individuals chosen by Jehovah God "to be a kingdom and priests".(Rev 5:9, 10) It need be remembered that Revelation was written in "signs" and thus much of it is not literal.(Rev 1:1) It is written in such a way as to make it impossible for who are not God's faithful servants to gain mental comprehension, for Jesus prayed to God, saying: "I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes. Yes, O Father, because to do thus came to be the way approved by you."(Matt 11:25, 26)

And when speaking to his disciples, Jesus told them: "To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted."(Matt 13:11) The 144,000 and the "kingdom of God" are interwoven, for the number 144,000 specifies the number of individuals selected by God to serve in the official positions of "kings and priests" (Rev 1:6, King James Bible) and the "kingdom of God" specifies that it is a heavenly government, unseen to human eyes.(Dan 2:44)

The 144,000 as a new "nation" have replaced the natural Jews that had the opportunity to "become to (Jehovah God) a kingdom of priests and a holy nation" (Ex 19:6), but failed to be loyal, with Jesus saying just some three days before his death: "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But you people did not want it. Look! Your house is abandoned to you."(Matt 23:37, 38)

He also told the Jewish religious leaders: "Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected (at Ps 118:22) is the one that has become the chief cornerstone.(at Isa 28:16) From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? This is why I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you (the nation of Israel) and be given to a nation producing its fruits."(Matt 21:42, 43)

The nation of natural Israel were the ones that God had originally purposed to build his spiritual "temple", symbolically being "builders". However, these rejected Jesus as the "chief cornerstone", and then murdered him.(1 Thess 2:14, 15) Thus, because of their wicked and treacherous attitude as a nation, guilty of shedding the blood of the prophets sent to them (Matt 23:34), Jesus said that "The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits." A new "nation" then replaced the natural Jews, that now consists of not just some Jews who turned to Jehovah God, but Gentiles as well, these being "grafted" in, as in an olive tree.(Rom 11:17-24)

This new "nation" of 144,000 that has been chosen, are "bought persons (with Jesus perfect blood) for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation."(Rev 5:9) These "are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish."(Rev 14:4, 5)

Just as the Lamb represents Jesus as a spiritual sacrificial lamb, so likewise the 144,000 are "virgins" in a spiritual sense, with the "women" being religious organizations of the false religious empire, Babylon the Great.(Rev 17:5) These have no intimate dealings with any of false religion, remaining "virgins".

This symbolic description harmonizes with the requirement in the Law that the high priest of Israel take only a virgin for his wife.(Lev 21:10, 14) Jesus, as God's great High Priest, accepts only as his "bride" those who have remained spiritually chaste, for the apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians: "For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised you in marriage to one husband (Jesus Christ) that I might present you as a chaste virgin."(2 Cor 11:2)

These realize that there is no such thing as interfaith, mixing in with any and all religions. These are warned to "touch nothing unclean" or else these would be rejected as "sons and daughters" of Jehovah God.(2 Cor 6:17, 18)