The (7th) Abomination That Maketh Desolate

[Earburner]

No, that is NOT Biblical. That is a doctrine from MEN, and not from God in His Word.

KJV- Luke 17:28-30;
2 Thes. 1:7-10 (pay attention to the word "when" that is written twice).

Zechariah 14 for the time AFTER... Jesus has returned in the future, it even reveals LEFTOVERS of those that came up against Jerusalem will be made to worship Jesus, The KING in that time, and keep the feast of tabernacles!

Zech. 14 has to do with Jesus' first coming, this present Age of Grace, and upto the Day of His sudden return from heaven.

Zech 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

First, you have to understand that the "Feast of Tabernacles" (dwelling places) is NOT about the Jews, but rather about God, who is dwelling in temporary shelters. We know of it as being the temporary flesh and blood bodies of the Born Again Saints, who are all waiting for the day to be made into the likeness of Christ's Immortality.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

All who do not come to Jesus, shall have no rain, which is symbolic of the Gift of God's Holy Spirit.

I mean WOW! even those of the "synagogue of Satan" in that future time after Jesus returns, will be made to come worship Him at the feet of Christ's very elect, as written in Revelation 3:9!

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV

And don't even think of trying... to say that was already history, because that "synagogue of Satan" represents Christ's main enemies here on earth, and they have NEVER bowed to Christ Jesus or His elect in this world, not even to this day! That event will happen ONLY after... Jesus' future return.

"The synagogue of Satan", being those who say they are Jews, and are not, is still with us today. It's called "Zionism".

 

[Davy]

Anyone who is NOT yet born again, in the Day that Jesus is revealed from heaven, in all His Eternal and Immortal Glory, will be destroyed by His Eternal Presence of flaming fire. That is biblical!!

Not at His coming!

The casting of the wicked and unbelieving into the future "lake of fire", known as the "second death", does not happen until AFTER God's Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15. Any other timing is a lie from another spirit.

 

[Earburner]

Not at His coming!

The casting of the wicked and unbelieving into the future "lake of fire", known as the "second death", does not happen until AFTER God's Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15. Any other timing is a lie from another spirit.

The GWTJ is a metaphor for KJV John 3:18.
In Rev. 20:11-15, no matter how many books (paths to God) were opened, there is only one criteria that is to be met, in order to escape "condemnation", aka "the second death".
[15] And whosoever was NOT found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

John 3
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned ALREADY, BECAUSE he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Davy]

I refute your false belief that at Christ's future coming, all the wicked are destroyed right then. That idea is NOT Biblical; it is a doctrine from men.

KJV- Luke 17:28-30;
2 Thes. 1:7-10 (pay attention to the word "when" that is written twice).

Luke 17:28-30 is where Lord Jesus used the flood of Noah's day as a 'type' for the end when He returns. Those outside the 'ark' were TAKEN (per the Matthew 24:37-39 version).

And the idea of 2 in the field, one is TAKEN and the other left, is part of that SUBJECT there in Luke 17. So what did He mean about those first ones that are TAKEN?

When His disciples asked Him, "Where, Lord?" about those TAKEN, He said "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." (Luke 17:37) In the Matthew 24:28 version of His answer, the idea of that "body" is about a dead "carcase".

The meaning is that wherever the dead 'carcase' is, that's where the fowls will be gathered together (i.e, feasting on it). That is the fate of those first ones TAKEN per His answer to His disciples' question. Thus those outside the ark represent the first ones TAKEN.

And just what does man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory teach about being TAKEN? They instead teach that we are to want... to be the TAKEN, and not those 'left-behind'! Their doctrine is the OPPOSITE of what Lord Jesus answered in Luke 17:37, and reveals Pre-trib is of another spirit.

Now 2 Thess.1:7-10...

Jesus had a lot more detail to say about the events upon the wicked AFTER His future coming, per His Book of Revelation, and of course Zechariah 14. Have you not read it?

Zech. 14 has to do with Jesus' first coming, this present Age of Grace, and upto the Day of His sudden return from heaven.

You well know that is not true. Zechariah 14 is still future to us, and is about Jesus' 2nd coming, back to earth upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from, as written in Acts 1!

Now I realize who you are. You aren't here to keep God's written Word, but instead have an agenda outside of God's Word.

 

[Phoneman777]

You haven't learned that the book of Daniel was for the Israel of faith, as the book of Revelation is for the church of God's Born Again saints.

The "Israel of God" are those who "walk by this rule" of the "new creature" in Christ (Gal. 6:15-16 KJV), therefore, the "Israel of faith" are those who practice faith in Christ.

Prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus, the faithful of Israel waited in faith for the promise of His appearance, during the "Age of God's Indignation".
Ever since Jesus came to us in the flesh, we are now in the "Age of God's Grace", waiting for his Glorious return in Immortality.

Dispensationalism is not Biblical - it's a false doctrine John Nelson Darby came up with after he was seduced by the lie of Jesuit Futurism, eventually adding to it the "secret rapture" fallacy, which is why I call it Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism.

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, but Dispensationalism allows people to deny this and make the Bible say whatever they want:

"That book of the Bible wasn't written to the church!"
"The dead used to stay dead but now go immediately to heaven or hell!"
"That part is for only the Jews during the last 7 years of tribulation!"

The false ideas that spring up around other false ideas are endless, that's why we need Protestant Historicism to put an end to it.

 

[Earburner]

Luke 17:28-30 is where Lord Jesus used the flood of Noah's day as a 'type' for the end when He returns. Those outside the 'ark' were TAKEN (per the Matthew 24:37-39 version).

Luke 17:28-30 is specifically speaking about Lot and that of Sodom.

In their day, Noah and Lot were both spared from the wrath of God IN THE SAME DAY of those judgments. They were simultaneous events of salvation and destruction IN THE SAME DAY (24 hours). Please read the accounts of each in the KJV.
Gen. 7
[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
[12] And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
[13] In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

Gen. 19
[23] The sun was risen [morning] upon the earth WHEN Lot ENTERED into Zoar. [the evening and the morning is ONE day of 24 hours].
[24] Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
[25] And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
[26] But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.
[27] And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the LORD:
[28] And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.

KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10 is a SIMULTANEOUS EVENT, taking place in one day (24 hours).
Luke 17
[29] But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed THEM ALL.
[30] Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

> In a twinkling of an eye [instantly], WE who are the "saved in Jesus" "shall be changed" into Immortality!!
But as for those who ARE NOT changed into immortality, they SHALL BE BURNED UP, before they hit the ground of burning lava, aka the Lake of fire.
(Edit): which is in complete agreement with Mat. 24:36-39, about the word "TAKEN" and "TOOK"- G3928: to perish
> [35] Heaven and earth shall pass [BE TAKEN-PERISH] away, but my words shall not pass away.
Do not be ignorant of how the word "taken" and "took" are used in the context of Mat. 24:35-42.
Heaven and earth shall [be taken/perish away], and ALL THOSE WHO are not "saved", shall go along with it.

[36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
[37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe ENTERED [was saved] into the ark,
> [39] And knew not until the flood came, and TOOK them all away [verse 35];
so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[40] Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken [saved], and the other left [to perish].
[41] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken [saved], and the other left [to perish].
[42] Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

 

[Earburner]

The "Israel of God" are those who "walk by this rule" of the "new creature" in Christ (Gal. 6:15-16 KJV), therefore, the "Israel of faith" are those who practice faith in Christ.

You don't understand that Israel, under the OC., NEVER HAD the permanency of God's Holy Spirit dwelling WITHIN them.
That could NOT take place UNTIL AFTER the shedding of Christ's Blood, for the forgiveness and the REMOVAL of sins.

Therefore, the best that God could do for them, who lived and died in faith believing under the OC., of "The Promise that was to come", was to have "their names written in A book of REMEMBRANCE" before God, as shown in Malachi 3:16.
(Edit): So then, it's no coincidence that the repentant thief on the cross requested of Jesus, by saying the following:
[42] And he said unto Jesus, Lord, REMEMBER ME when thou comest into thy kingdom. Luke 23:39-43.

Moving forward, ALL OF SUCH are seen in paradise, under the altar (of the OC.), Rev. 6:9-11, as the symbolic number of the 144,000, each being given "white robes", which is the permanent Gift of God's Holy Spirit.
God did not forget them. They are NOW "written in the Lamb's Book of Life", and do "follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth".
Rev. 14:4
What did you think that the Heavenly City is? Literal mansions and buildings?
Not so!

Dispensationalism is not Biblical - it's a false doctrine John Nelson Darby came up with after he was seduced by the lie of Jesuit Futurism, eventually adding to it the "secret rapture" fallacy, which is why I call it Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism.

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, but Dispensationalism allows people to deny this and make the Bible say whatever they want:

"That book of the Bible wasn't written to the church!"
"The dead used to stay dead but now go immediately to heaven or hell!"
"That part is for only the Jews during the last 7 years of tribulation!"

The false ideas that spring up around other false ideas are endless, that's why we need Protestant Historicism to put an end to it.

If one reads and studies the Bible through "the wisdom of men", all kinds of false labels by them, will be applied to those of us who seek to "worship God in Spirit and in truth".
John 4:23-24.

1 Cor. 2
[5] That YOUR faith should NOT stand in the wisdom of men, but [rather] in the power of [the Holy Spirit of] God.

All should read, study and digest, by the Holy Spirit, the entirety of 1 Cor. ch. 2.

 

[Earburner]

The "Israel of God" are those who "walk by this rule" of the "new creature" in Christ (Gal. 6:15-16 KJV), therefore, the "Israel of faith" are those who practice faith in Christ.

Yes! We know them as being Christians who are "born again" of the Holy Spirit, and are not merely baptized by water.

Dispensationalism is not Biblical - it's a false doctrine John Nelson Darby came up with after he was seduced by the lie of Jesuit Futurism, eventually adding to it the "secret rapture" fallacy, which is why I call it Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism.

What do those who teach by "the wisdom of men" have to do with me, who teaches what the Holy Spirit teaches?
"My faith does NOT STAND in the wisdom of men, but rather by the [Holy Spirit] of God".

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, but Dispensationalism allows people to deny this and make the Bible say whatever they want:

I am not a "literalist", a "historicist", a "futurist", or any other label you'd like to pin on me. I seek only to "worship God in Spirit and in truth". I care not for anything of the doctrines and traditions of men, aka, "church-ianity".

The Holy Spirit within me guides me in the same manner as how He guided Paul: 1 Cor. 2:12-14
[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost TEACHETH; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
I trust in NOTHING that is derived and/or fabricated by the mind of "the natural man", whether by others or that of myself. (vs. 14).

"That book of the Bible wasn't written to the church!"

It most certainly was!! 1 Cor. 1:10-12, specifically, verses 6 and 11.
Specifically Rev. 2:1-29; 2:1-23.

"The dead used to stay dead but now go immediately to heaven or hell!"

Yes indeed, but not how you and others comprehend it. Yes, the dead in Christ are alive, but they are asleep in Jesus, waiting to be "changed" into the likeness of Christ's Immortality, upon His appearance FROM heaven. John 11
[26] And whosoever liveth  AND believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

However, the unsaved dead, are permanently dead in their graves, having gone nowhere else, as you are falsely led to believe, by "the wisdom of men".

"That part is for only the Jews during the last 7 years of tribulation!"

Sorry! There is NOTHING in the future for the Jews, EXCEPT to accept Jesus as their personal Savior NOW, WHILE they still have breath.
Rom. 10:12; Luke 13:35.

The false ideas that spring up around other false ideas are endless, that's why we need Protestant Historicism to put an end to it.

Historicism ignores "comparing spiritual things with spiritual", and as a result is forever looking at prophecy to be manifested only through the flesh and blood of men, being that of a false future Millennial Kingdom of Christ on earth.

 

[Phoneman777]

What do those who teach by "the wisdom of men" have to do with me, who teaches what the Holy Spirit teaches?
"My faith does NOT STAND in the wisdom of men, but rather by the [Holy Spirit] of God".

I have no doubt you believe you do, friend.

I am not a "literalist", a "historicist", a "futurist", or any other label you'd like to pin on me. I seek only to "worship God in Spirit and in truth". I care not for anything of the doctrines and traditions of men, aka, "church-ianity".

Then why do your doctrines match those of the Jesuits?

It most certainly was!! 1 Cor. 1:10-12, specifically, verses 6 and 11.
Specifically Rev. 2:1-29; 2:1-23.

You misunderstood me. The phrase "that book was not written for us!" is a popular misconception by Dispensationalists that some parts of the Bible aren't for the church, which is ridiculous.

Yes indeed, but not how you and others comprehend it. Yes, the dead in Christ are alive, but they are asleep in Jesus, waiting to be "changed" into the likeness of Christ's Immortality, upon His appearance FROM heaven. John 11
[26] And whosoever liveth  AND believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

However, the unsaved dead, are permanently dead in their graves, having gone nowhere else, as you are falsely led to believe, by "the wisdom of men".

Bro, I assure you "the dead know not anything". To claim "the dead are indeed dead, but not surely...they're alive on another plane of existence" is to agree with the Serpent in Eden.

According the process by which the Soul comes into existence in Genesis 2:7 KJV, at death when the Spirit Spirit returns to God and the body begins turning back to dust, the Soul ceases to exist...until the one or the other of the two resurrections.

Sorry! There is NOTHING in the future for the Jews, EXCEPT to accept Jesus as their personal Savior NOW, WHILE they still have breath.
Rom. 10:12; Luke 13:35.

Now upon this we agree, bro! Romans 11 is about God saving Jews individually by individually grafting the "natural branches" in with us "wild branches", all of which are connected to the One Great Vine. The church is now the "Israel of God" and always will be.

Historicism ignores "comparing spiritual things with spiritual", and as a result is forever looking at prophecy to be manifested only through the flesh and blood of men, being that of a false future Millennial Kingdom of Christ on earth.

Please, I'd love for you to point to any instance you think Historicism ignores the "line upon line, precept upon precept" principle

To the contrary, Historicism's unparalleled successful practice of this principle is what allows it to stand the same tests of Biblical scrutiny before which all other ideas fall.

 

[Reddsta]

Greetings Earburner…

I read your OP and I read through this lengthy forum…more or less depending upon author. I get your point that Israel committed an abomination leaving them in desolation. Additionally…I think your “understanding” of Daniels 70 weeks is plausible as well…which makes it a tough run on any “law keeping, Judeo-Christian, Old Testament worshipping rapture ready denominational Christ denying sheeple” running rampant on the forums.

If your perspective on Israel as you have laid it out here is Truth…the “sheeple” will always openly reject anything of the sort…because it attacks their centuries old belief structure and since they can read the bible they know all truth…anyone who believes anything…less or different…are in their eyes…insufferably wrong for which the only forgiveness that can be offered you is if you surrender your convictions to join them in their ancient and childish ways.

Ok…so you have at least some idea where I am coming from…we share some similar beliefs in regards to this forum. I have a couple of comments…and…an interesting work for you to consider in regard to “temple – abomination – apostasy.”

Through this brief study, you now have come to know, that act by Israel: "THE ABOMINATION [of shedding the innocent blood of Jesus] [is] THAT [of why God] MAKETH DESOLATE", and is now long past, of which shall NEVER be repeated again for THAT REASON, or any other reason. Dan. 12:11.

I must point out here that you are obviously correct that the shedding of the blood of the “Lamb of God” is long past and can never be repeated again regardless if there is another temple built…the animal sacrifice is reinstituted…and the “perfect” red heifer is found for an offering.

There is likely however another “abomination in the Holy Place” that one must understand. It has been happening since the first century and is steadily “growing” yet today and on into the future for a bit. It should be obvious…however it is not…hence the destruction of Gods people…via age old deception.

If one is ever going to understand the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24-27, they MUST study it through the KJV only, with the teaching by God's Holy Spirit, and NOT by the wisdom of men.

With the Holy Spirit as the author of all “scripture” translation is really user specific don't you think? I seldom work out of the KJV…I do…just seldom.

The revelation of the “Spirit of Truth” is just that…Truth revealed from the “mind of God” to the minds of His sons. I am sure that you understand...that of your own “reason or understanding” Earburner...you did not come to this understanding outside of the revelation granted you.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”

This is a powerful passage and in context…it delineates the religious, immature and carnal from the spiritual. Those who “reason scripture” via the mind of man do not have access to eternal life…yet they think that because they can read…they can know all mysteries.

Redd...

 

[Reddsta]

Abomination that maketh desolate.....

First we need to consider the word “temple” in the New Testament as it has been translated…almost exclusively…into “two” words in the Greek…I am working out of the KJV here as a note.

Additionally, these are really the only two references to “temple” found in the New Testament…with the latter word…the only word for “temple” found in the book Revelation…this matters.

G2411 “hieron”…a temple, either the whole building, or specifically the outer courts, open to worshippers. The entire Temple complex, i.e. all its enclosures (precincts, courtyards) and the central sanctuary.

G3485 “naos” that part of the temple where God himself resides. Properly…divine dwelling-place…the place of divine manifestation. With just its two inner compartments (rooms). Consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of holies.

If the difference between specific definitions of the word “temple” means nothing to someone studying the bible…well then…they are able to frame their interpretation in any manner that suits them…and that may leave one with an incomplete or inaccurate interpretation…if that really matters.

Now let’s consider the a couple references that help us define what is meant by “temple” in reference to the “temple of God.”All would do well to follow this out…there is a simplicity to these passages that many have overlooked…I have taken the time to open up to you in a greater light…some understanding…hope you grasp it. 2nd Thessalonians 2:3-4

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first,

This is in regard to the “Lords coming”…first in the progression here is the “apostasy”…this is a “falling away”…one cannot “fall away” from a thing…unless they were once “a part” of…the thing.

What is it that Paul is referring to as “that” from which there will be a “falling away…from?” Clearly it is from the “Kingdom of God and the Lord”…so prior to the Lord’s return…Paul is telling us that the “first” thing we will see…is people once formerly in the “house of God or the Body of Christ…departing the faith”…in other words they will be leaving via deception…thinking the Lord Yahshua is leading them in this.

Interestingly enough Paul is the one who teaches us…if the Spirit of God dwells in us…”we are a temple of God”…for further clarification on the matter…Paul wrote…”do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?” That is very clear and straight forward…only the deceived trip on this definition of “temple.”

He does not stop there…in Ephesians he writes this…”you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household”…in the “house of God.” Which house…has been “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone”…the “house of God” also known as “the temple of God”…is on a firm foundation…in Christ.

Paul continues here in Ephesians 2 by writing…”in whom the whole building [the house/temple of God] being fitted together [the temple of God that is being built] is growing into a holy temple in the Lord” The “Body of Christ”…is being built into the “holy temple of God” and because Paul is referring to humanity living on the earth in his day and up to today and yet future…the Lord is yet building “His Holy Temple.”

This is the only “temple” we need to concern ourselves with ever…do not be deceived beloved.

He does not stop there in Ephesians however…Paul concludes in verse 22 in this fashion…”in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.” This “temple of God” is such because…wherever the “Spirit of God dwells”…is “His Holy Temple.”

This is the term “naos” G3485… the place of divine manifestation…and this is the word Paul is using here. He is not referencing a “physical temple” that is the word “hieron” G2411 look for yourself.

Redd...

 

[Reddsta]

Abomination that maketh desolate.....2

Ok…so it should be clear to the maturing “sons of God” that today…that the “only…temple in which God has interest is…His own”…that is the “dwelling place of His Holy Spirit”…which is “His people”…the “temple of God” on earth and in heaven is in “His people.”

It is this temple from which the “apostasy” takes place…it has to do with people “leaving the spiritual temple of God”…on earth…from Paul’s day up to today and in the future.

Now to finish 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 verses 3 & 4…“and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship”

Now that we are armed with a more “complete understanding” of exactly what constitutes “God’s Holy Temple”…which is described as what one is “apostatizing or falling away” from…then brings into view according to brother Paul…the cause of the “falling away”…it is…the “revealing” of one “who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship.” The liar…remember this is all upon the church.

So…is it too much a stretch for me to say…that this character…the “man of lawlessness” exults…opposes…deems himself as greater than God and His dwelling place or “His Holy Temple?”

No…no it is not a stretch at all…in fact…that…among other things…is exactly what Paul is telling us. This “lawless one” attempts to exult himself above “all other gods”…this includes the God and Father of our Lord Yahshua Christ and His creation.

What does this do for the “apostasy” but continuously inspire it all the greater? Once it gets to the fullness of its appearance…for those who are falling away…he…the “man of lawlessness” appears as “god.” This is exactly what Paul is revealing to us…and thus…this understanding will give a greater understanding of the following passage from…2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 4b.

“So that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.”

We have already understood the “temple of God” as “His Spirit dwelling in and among His household and people.”

We also understand that it is the “temple of God” from which one can “fall away” that constitutes the “apostasy” that Paul reveals to us.

We understand that it is the “deceptive” work…“as God”…of this “man of lawlessness” that causes people formerly in the “temple of God” to reject God leave the temple and follow him all the while “thinking” they are obeying Christ…massive deception in play here.

Redd...

 

[Reddsta]

Abomination that maketh desolate.....3

So…”a people” who were once “the temple of God”…who “fall away” from or leave the only “temple of God” there is…which is ”the dwelling place of Gods Holy Spirit”…are deceived by this “man of lawlessness”…into believing that…“he is God”…thereby completing the transition from actually being in the “temple of God” into the “temple of the false god”…as God…in their minds…without their realizing this…which is what Paul has communicated here in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3-4

It is in this…that we see the “man of lawlessness…taking his seat in the temple of God”…”displaying himself as being God.” Of course at some point this one is no longer in “temple of God” in Christ.

This “man of lawlessness” precipitates the ”falling away…the apostasy”…which causes people who were “formerly” in the Kingdom of God…to acquiesce to the belief that he…this “man of lawlessness” is God…and this happens in “their minds”…their thoughts are co-opted through an invisible spiritual deception…that by definition…is completely unbeknownst to the apostate…think about that for just a moment.

They go on believing and living like they are “in Christ”…as members of His body…and are now tragically and unaware that they are trapped in an inverse reality…and in darkness as they see this “man of lawlessness” as their God.

I will say this…for those multitudes who are in some form or fashion yet watching for this “man of lawlessness” to be revealed or appear…by the time…you…“see” him as he is…your deception will be complete…and you will obey his rule in your life in the form of worship to your god.

If you have not yet seen this one the “man of lawlessness”…brother, sister…you are being deceived by him…simply because he has you looking forward in time to his appearance…as though he has not yet arrived…that is the power of his covert nature and operation. Few ever say…”oh hey…I am deceived.”

Clearly the Lord Yahshua would have absolutely no need to ever authorize another temple and has not done this…so if it was a god who has authorized it…look at the “man of lawlessness.”

Understand that believing in the word of the “man of lawlessness”...which is really nothing less than a manipulation of scripture to suit “his deceptive desire” which is “pleasing to his followers” they love his voice…it makes them feel like god. Same ploy worked on Adam and Eve…he has been at it since the Garden of Eden.

Do not be deceived…

Redd...

 

[Earburner]

I have no doubt you believe you do, friend.

No, I don't believe that I think that I know, but rather that it's been freely given to me from above, that of which I do know, and shall continue to know.
1 Cor. 2
[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost

 

[Phoneman777]

No, I don't believe that I think that I know, but rather that it's been freely given to me from above, that of which I do know, and shall continue to know.
1 Cor. 2
[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost

I agree 100%. We gotta remember, though, God doesn't engage in interior locution - He leads and guides our thinking into all truth - meaning He has to lead us out of error.

When it comes to Antiochus Epiphanes IV, God used others to show me solid reasons why he cannot be the Little Horn, which I've also shared with you.

The "Little Horn" must be "exceeding great" over the "very great" kingdom of Greece and the "great" kingdom of Medo-Persia, in keeping with the prophetic template of Daniel 2 (Babylon, MP, Greece, Rome, Europe) which continues with Daniel 7 - and is followed in Daniel 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12, and the book of Revelation. Antiochus' sun set in obscurity, not "exceeding" greatness.

 

[Earburner]

I agree 100%. We gotta remember, though, God doesn't engage in interior locution - He leads and guides our thinking into all truth - meaning He has to lead us out of error.

When it comes to Antiochus Epiphanes IV, God used others to show me solid reasons why he cannot be the Little Horn, which I've also shared with you.

The "Little Horn" must be "exceeding great" over the "very great" kingdom of Greece and the "great" kingdom of Medo-Persia, in keeping with the prophetic template of Daniel 2 (Babylon, MP, Greece, Rome, Europe) which continues with Daniel 7 - and is followed in Daniel 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12, and the book of Revelation. Antiochus' sun set in obscurity, not "exceeding" greatness.

KJV Daniel 8:1-11
Surely you are aware of the Grecian Empire, through Alexander the GREAT, symbolized as the "he goat" having "a notable horn", doing battle with the "ram", having two horns, symbolizing two forms of government, acting as one, within the union of the Medio-Persian Empire.

You and I both know the history, that Alexander died, having no family to bestow his fame and heritage, thus the Grecian Empire was then divided between his four Generals.

Jumping forward to Antiochus Epiphanes of the Seleucid Empire, we read the following:
KJV Dan. 8
[8] Therefore the he goat [Alex the Great] waxed  VERY great: and when he was strong, the great horn [Alex and his Grecian army] was broken [Alex had died]; and for it came up four notable ones [four horns] toward the four winds of heaven [the four compass points].
[9] And out of one of them [one of the four horns, the Seleucid empire] came forth a little horn [A.Epiphanes lV], which waxed exceeding great [seeking to be GREATER than "VERY great", being that of who was "Alexander The GREAT"], toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land [Israel].
[10] And it waxed great, even to the host [army] of heaven [Israel]; and it cast down some of the host [army of Israel] and of the stars [its Commanders] to the ground, and stamped upon them.
[11] Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince [Judas Maccabeus] of the host [army of Israel], and by him [A. Epiphanes] the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

You can learn of that fulfilled prophecy of 1290 days** in 1 Maccabees ch. 1-4.
Prophecy that is fulfilled, cannot be fulfilled again. There is not going to be a future "little horn" to come.

**Note: Dan. 12:11-13.
Please remember that the book of Daniel was written for OC. Israel, as the book of Revelation is written for Christ's NC. church.

 

[Earburner]

Hi Reddsta,
Thank you for your very informative replies to me in your recent posts. I have taken some time to fully digest all that you've said, and do agree with you, that we do have alot in common in our understanding of God's words, by His Holy Spirit.

I understand the point that you have shown, in regards to out temporary flesh and blood bodies being the very temple of God's indwelling, during His present Age of Grace, through having faith in Jesus, the Lamb of God.
Edit: Knowing full well that our F&B bodies cannot enter into KoG, upon Jesus' Glorious return in Immortality, we who are Born Again NOW, by the gift of God's Holy Spirit, shall ALSO be "changed" into Immortality, according to the likeness and similitude of Jesus. 1 Cor. 15:45-58.

The following verses will reveal my understanding of what you would have me to know, of which I do agree:
Luke 23
[31] For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?
Acts 9
[4] And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
John 15
[20] Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

 

[Phoneman777]

Jumping forward to Antiochus Epiphanes of the Seleucid Empire, we read the following:
KJV Dan. 8
[8] Therefore the he goat [Alex the Great] waxed  VERY great: and when he was strong, the great horn [Alex and his Grecian army] was broken [Alex had died]; and for it came up four notable ones [four horns] toward the four winds of heaven [the four compass points].
[9] And out of one of them [one of the four horns, the Seleucid empire] came forth a little horn [A.Epiphanes lV], which waxed exceeding great [seeking to be GREATER than "VERY great", being that of who was "Alexander The GREAT"], toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land [Israel].

According to the rule of Noun-Pronoun Gender Agreement, if the pronoun "them" is masculine and "winds" is sometimes masculine, but "horns" are never masculine, "them" cannot refer to the Seleucid "horn".

Moreover, the noun antecedent to "them" is "winds" - not "horns".

However, Rome arose in the West point of the compass and absolutely became "exceeding great", attacking laterally as "Pagan Rome" and then vertically toward heaven as "Papal Rome".

[11] Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince [Judas Maccabeus] of the host [army of Israel]

The Prince of the host is the Prince of peace and His angelic host, to which the papacy magnified itself then and still does today.

, and by him [A. Epiphanes] the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

The papacy took the "daily" ("SACRIFICE" NOT IN ORIGINAL TEXT) away - "daily" referring to the entire sanctuary service of intercession, not just the animal sacrifice. They hijacked it from Jesus - just ask any catholic and they'll tell you who it is you need to go see to obtain "forgiveness" and "intercession".

You can learn of that fulfilled prophecy of 1290 days** in 1 Maccabees ch. 1-4.

The Little Horn can't be Antiochus or Judas M. - neither of them even began to approach the greatness of the "very great" he-goat.

However, the "exceeding great" Pagan Rome (Little Horn attacking laterally) and Papal Rome (Little Horn attacking vertically) absolutely fulfills the prophecy.

Prophecy that is fulfilled, cannot be fulfilled again. There is not going to be a future "little horn" to come.

Didn't Daniel say the Little Horn would still be running his mouth at the "time of the end" when "the judgment is set and the books were opened" and "the kingdom would be given to the saints" in Daniel 7?

Antiochus or Judas M. have long since become returned to the dust of the Earth, but the papacy is alive and well and infiltrating a Protestant church near you, friend.

Please remember that the book of Daniel was written for OC. Israel, as the book of Revelation is written for Christ's NC. church.

Any Christian who wants to understand what Revelation is saying cannot unless he understands what the book of Daniel says, which is why Paul said the things written aforetime are written for our learning.

 

[Earburner]

According to the rule of Noun-Pronoun Gender Agreement, if the pronoun "them" is masculine and "winds" is sometimes masculine, but "horns" are never masculine, "them" cannot refer to the Seleucid "horn".

Moreover, the noun antecedent to "them" is "winds" - not "horns".

 Sorry, I don't do the pharisaical, wisdom of men routine of hair splitting for details of grammar, when the verse is self explanatory in context:
KJV Dan. 8:9 ...and for it [the first single "notable horn" that had died], came up four notable ones [four horns] toward the four winds of heaven [the four compass points].
[9] And out of one of them [one of the four horns, the Seleucid empire] came forth a little horn.
Evidently, your "historicist" view is already contrary to scripture and the historical account.
So then, let's list those four Generals of Alex the Great, that divided up Greece four ways:
1. Ptolemy
2. Cassander
3. Seleucus
4. Lysimachus

Alexander's Empire Divides

However, Rome arose in the West point of the compass and absolutely became "exceeding great", attacking laterally as "Pagan Rome" and then vertically toward heaven as "Papal Rome".

At the time of the Four Generals, that divided up Greece four ways, the "fourth beast" of the "Roman" was only a republic, in its beginning stages of coming onto the world scene, while the 3rd beast was in it's latter stage.
KJV Dan. 8
[21] And the rough goat is the king[dom] of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king [Alex the Great].
[22] Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation [of Greece], but not in his [Alex's] power.
[23] And in the latter time of THEIR kingdom [being still Grecian, the 3rd beast], when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
[24] And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people [OC. Israel]. [History- 1 Maccabees ch. 1-4].
[25] And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
[26] And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. [That prophecy of the "abomination that maketh desolate", was given to Daniel in 553 BC. and was fulfilled "many days later" in 145 BC. by Antiochus Epiphanes- 1 Maccabees 1:54].

According to KJV Daniel 11:30, the following should sound familiar to you in
1 Maccabees 1:11
[10] And there came out of them a wicked root Antiochus surnamed Epiphanes, son of Antiochus the king, who had been an hostage at Rome, and he reigned in the hundred and thirty and seventh (137th) year of the kingdom of the Greeks.
[11] In those days went there out of Israel wicked men, who persuaded many, saying, Let us go and make a covenant with the heathen that are round about us: for since we departed from them we have had much sorrow. (Yes indeed, even that of those "wicked men", has been fulfilled also).

Though that 4th beast is prophectically shown to have 10 horns, those horns are not manifested as to who they are, until Jesus is on the verge of being revealed from heaven in Rev. 17:12

The Prince of the host is the Prince of peace and His angelic host, to which the papacy magnified itself then and still does today.

You have not understood that OC. Israel was in essence the kingdom of Heaven on earth at that time.
During the 1290 days of 2300 day prophecy of KJV Daniel 12:11-12, Judas Maccabeus was indeed the prince of the host (army) of Israel.
Your present "historicist" position is manipulated and faulty.

The papacy took the "daily" ("SACRIFICE" NOT IN ORIGINAL TEXT) away - "daily" referring to the entire sanctuary service of intercession, not just the animal sacrifice. They hijacked it from Jesus - just ask any catholic and they'll tell you who it is you need to go see to obtain "forgiveness" and "intercession".

The papacy??? You are running too far forward, skipping over the Greatest sacrifice of all, and FOR ALL.
The daily functions and animal sacrifices, at the temple of Jerusalem, were eclipsed, superceded and eliminated by the sacrifice of Christ Himself, "The Lamb OF God".

The Little Horn can't be Antiochus or Judas M. - neither of them even began to approach the greatness of the "very great" he-goat.

However, the "exceeding great" Pagan Rome (Little Horn attacking laterally) and Papal Rome (Little Horn attacking vertically) absolutely fulfills the prophecy.

History prior to Jesus' first appearance proves otherwise.

Didn't Daniel say the Little Horn would still be running his mouth at the "time of the end" when "the judgment is set and the books were opened" and "the kingdom would be given to the saints" in Daniel 7?

Know this: there is no future "little horn" to come. All of that has been fulfilled.

If you are "Born Again" by God's Holy Spirit, you have entered into the KoG, and the KoG has entered into you. By His Spirit, all of such HAVE RECEIVED the KoG.
Therefore, KJV 1 John 5 :12-13 applies, as Jesus said:
KJV Luke 12
[31] But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
[32] Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
KJV Luke 17
[21] Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Antiochus or Judas M. have long since become returned to the dust of the Earth, but the papacy is alive and well and infiltrating a Protestant church near you, friend.

Any Christian who wants to understand what Revelation is saying cannot unless he understands what the book of Daniel says, which is why Paul said the things written aforetime are written for our learning.

All you are doing is pitting one religion of church-ianity against the religion of other forms of church-ianity.
So then, now let's discuss Christ-ianity.
Unfortunately, not many, being both Jews and Gentiles, can see the difference of anything about what TEMPLE it actually is, that God seeks to dwell in. See Luke 17:21 and 2 Cor. 4:7.

 

[Phoneman777]

 Sorry, I don't do the pharisaical, wisdom of men routine of hair splitting for details of grammar, when the verse is self explanatory in context:

Good reading comprehension isn't Pharisaical.

KJV Dan. 8:9 ...and for it [the first single "notable horn" that had died], came up four notable ones [four horns] toward the four winds of heaven [the four compass points].
[9] And out of one of them [one of the four horns, the Seleucid empire] came forth a little horn.

While I've shown you two reasons - noun/pronoun gender agreement, and noun antecedent proximity - for why "them" cannot possibly refer to "horns" - all you've done is merely toss in the "c" word and insist it does. We call that "subjective reasoning" which is in no way to be confused with sound hermeneutics.

The context is established by facts, not wishful thinking, friend

Evidently, your "historicist" view is already contrary to scripture and the historical account.

I'm pretty sure it's not.

At the time of the Four Generals, that divided up Greece four ways, the "fourth beast" of the "Roman" was only a republic, in its beginning stages of coming onto the world scene, while the 3rd beast was in it's latter stage.
KJV Dan. 8

Greece was the 3rd beast, and at the "latter end" of the 4 divisions of it is when the Rome arose to conquer it. Antiochus reigned 8th in a line of 20 or so kings, so even if "them" could refer to "horns", Antiochus was way too early to even be considered as such - right or wrong?

[That prophecy of the "abomination that maketh desolate", was given to Daniel in 553 BC. and was fulfilled "many days later" in 145 BC. by Antiochus Epiphanes- 1 Maccabees 1:54].

First, we'll stick to Scripture and history, not books that the papacy says we must accept or be "anathema".

Second, how could the AoD be almost 200 years before Christ when Christ Himself said it was still future?

Though that 4th beast is prophectically shown to have 10 horns, those horns are not perfunctory until Jesus is on the verge of being revealed from heaven in Rev. 17:12

Kingdoms always rise on the heels of the one falling before it.

Therefore, the Ten Horns barbarian tribes arose as the Roman Empire fell.

You have not understood that OC. Israel was in essence the kingdom of Heaven on earth at that time.

I'm not sure that's correct.

During the 1290 days of 2300 day prophecy of KJV Daniel 12:11-12, Judas Maccabeus was indeed the prince of the host (army) of Israel.

Since Judas M wasn't anywhere near "exceeding great" as the Little Horn was prophesied to be, why even consider him as a candidate?

Your present "historicist" position is manipulated and faulty.

It certainly doesn't rely on attributing greatness to people who are anything but.

The papacy??? You are running too far forward, skipping over the Greatest sacrifice of all, and FOR ALL.
The daily functions and animal sacrifices, at the temple of Jerusalem, were eclipsed, superceded and eliminated by the sacrifice of Christ Himself, "The Lamb OF God".

The Little Horn arose among the Ten Horns of the fallen Roman Empire - just as prophesied.

History prior to Jesus' first appearance proves otherwise.

Not that the AoD was before Him.

Know this: there is no future "little horn" to come. All of that has been fulfilled.

Yes, in 538 A.D. The papacy is the only agency that fulfills all the idenfying marks of Bible prophecy concerning Antichrist.

All you are doing is pitting one religion of church-ianity against the religion of other forms of church-ianity.
So then, now let's discuss Christ-ianity.

Actually, I'm following the prophetic timeline established in Daniel and carried over to Revelation, instead of turning into a hodgepodge.

Unfortunately, not many, being both Jews and Gentiles, can see the difference of anything about what TEMPLE it actually is, that God seeks to dwell in. See Luke 17:21 and 2 Cor. 4:7.

Paul refers to the church as the "temple" over which the antichrist would rule - the papacy.