The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

I want to say at the start, this is not an attack on individual Pretribbers. There are many solid Pretribbers out there. This is a challenge on the doctrine espoused by them.

Anyone that has engaged with Pretribbers on forums like this will know that they cannot furnish us with one single proof text to support their teaching. They cannot show you where in Scripture teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord. That is because it does not exist. It is a man-made doctrine. They seem incapable of recognizing that there is only one final future coming of the Lord. That event will see Jesus coming literally, physically and visibly "with" and "for" His people. Multiple Scripture proves that He will rescue all His elect and then destroy all the wicked. This is shown to be the end!

Here are some of the revealing statements Pretribbers have made recently.

MA2444 said:

There doesnt seem to be one single verse that says there shall be a pretrib rapture.

The Light said:

The first rapture is the rapture of the Church. This is the dead in Christ in the spring harvest and the alive that remained in the summer harvest. These are not listed in Revelation,

MA2444

Daniel 9 doesn't really mention the rapture

So, where is a Pretrib rapture in the Bible? Nowhere! They admit this, yet refuse to abandon their error. Amazing! They admit this, yet they want to change us and get us to believe this error. It is ridiculous!

The Bible evidence supports one final future climatic coming of Jesus

The Bible shows us that there is one future coming of the Lord which is all-consummating.

The Greek word parousia appears 24 times in the New Testament. It is rendered “coming” in 22 passages and “presence” in 2. The word can be interpreted coming, arrival or presence and simply expresses in the Greek what it implies in the English. The word parousia is mostly applied in Scripture to the second coming of the Lord although it is not solely restricted to that Advent. In II Thessalonians 2:9 the word is applied to the arrival of antichrist. The word is also used in other passages to describe the coming or arrival of a person (1 Corinthians 16:17 and 2 Corinthians 7:6).

Notwithstanding, the first time we encounter the word parousia in relation to the coming of the Lord is in Matthew 24. The word is found in the disciples’ response to the Lord’s statement outside the temple.

In His discourse in Matthew 23:37-24:2 the Lord warns, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord (the second coming). Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The disciples then question the Lord on the detail, meaning and timing of this solemn prophecy and of the end of the world by way of two questions in Matthew 24:3, asking,

(1) “Tell us, when shall these things be?” and
(2) “what shall be the sign of thy coming [or parousia], and of the end [or sunteleías, or completion, or consummation] of the world?”

In this passage, "the end of the world" is plainly identified with the coming of the Lord.

The Lord employs the word parousia in reply to the disciples second question in Matthew 24:23-28, when He says, “if any man shall say unto you (before the one final future second coming of the Lord), Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son be. Wheresoever is the carcase, there will be gathered together the eagles.”

Christ immediately adds in Matthew 24:29-31, speaking of this one final future coming, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming [Gr. erchomai] in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [Gr. episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Here is the gathering of God's people, the catching away, the rapture of the Church. This comes after the tribulation period.

Jesus then concludes Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” What day and hour? The one and only final future climactic coming (or parousia) of our Lord. Please see the Greek word is used twice here in this passage. This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

This day finds the wicked unprepared. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

The Lord uses the word parousia again in v 37 to equate the days preceding His coming to the days preceding Noah’s entry into the ark, saying, “as the days of Noe were, so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be.”

We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”

 

[WPM]

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 confirms the finality of that day and its clear relation to the end, saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

This reading outlines in totally unambiguous language how the second coming of the Lord will be completely all-consummating in its nature. This final event expressly ushers in the end, and is the stage that Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and “shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.” It is the concluding end for all mankind on this scene of time, now eternity and the general judgement. Notwithstanding, we cannot fail to note the stark contrast between God’s dealing with the kingdom of God and that of the kingdom of darkness at the end. One is finally presented “up,” the other is finally put “down.” All this coincides with the one final future coming (or ‘parousia’) of the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”

The catching away is the second coming. Read the text.

There is a catching away ("rapture") here, but no tribulation period following. That is because it is ongoing since the early Church. If Pretrib was true, this is where you would find it, but no, It is not here. Neither can you add it to the inspired text. That is forbidden. What follows Christ's climactic appearing then? Total destruction!

This is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. This reading describes how Christ comes “with” and “for” His saints the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living believers will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the final uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ). It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s coming) is the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.

 

[WPM]

II Thessalonians 2:1-8 says, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the Christ (most modern translations say “the day of the Lord”) is at hand is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [Gr. apostasía or apostasy] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth (or restraineth) that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness [Gr. epiphaneia] of his coming [Gr. parousia].”

This is the second coming of the Lord. This is the time when we are gathered together unto the Lord at the catching away. Antichrist is shown here to be destroyed at the one and only return of the Lord.

2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Look at this carefully. The solemn message embodied within this reading is speaking about the “scoffers” in “the last days” who foolishly question the possibility of the impending return of Christ. It is not in any way concentrated upon a supposed group of millennial scoffers 1,000 years later or a period following the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. If this is supposed to be a collection of millennial inhabitants 1,000 years after the second coming, why would they be mocking “Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”? Such a notion is completely absurd because Christ’s coming (or parousia) would then be long past.

The last days are clearly now. When Peter states, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness” (2 Peter 3:9) he was (1) speaking of His climactic coming and (2) referring to “the last days scoffers” mocking the promise of the Lord’s return (2 Peter 3:3-4). He then goes on to show how these foolish individuals will be finally and totally destroyed along with this current earth (and the element and the heavens) at Christ’s coming (2 Peter 3:7). After, outlining the awful end of the wicked, Peter then turns to the believer and presents the great hope of the righteous, saying, “Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:13). The coming of Christ therefore brings completely differing outcomes for these two diverse companies. Christ’s Advent in glory will witness the eternal banishment of all wickedness from off the face of the earth. A new earth – free of all sin, death, rebellion and the wicked – will then be gloriously ushered in.

We can therefore confidently assume that, like Noah’s day, the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is a single event which involves the immediate and complete rescue of all His people coupled with the immediate and complete destruction of all the wicked. This Advent will affect the destruction of this current sin-cursed world.

The parousia is here also described as the day of God – the day which sees the end of the world. Therefore, we can safely assume, like Noah’s day, that the righteous shall be rescued first at the parousia of the Lord before the wicked are immediately and completely destroyed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Great posts. I hope people will prayerfully consider what you have said here because it's excellent. There are no sensationalized theories to be found in these posts. It's all based on straightforward scriptural text rather than more difficult symbolic text.

Unfortunately, we live in a day and age of short attention spans, so I would recommend people take it one post or even a couple paragraphs at a time if they are unable to keep their attention beyond that. There's much to be learned there if people are willing to consider it objectively.

 

[WPM]

Great posts. I hope people will prayerfully consider what you have said here because it's excellent. There are no sensationalized theories to be found in these posts. It's all based on straightforward scriptural text rather than more difficult symbolic text.

Unfortunately, we live in a day and age of short attention spans, so I would recommend people take it one post or even a couple paragraphs at a time if they are unable to keep their attention beyond that. There's much to be learned there if people are willing to consider it objectively.

Exactly bro! The Scriptures speak for themselves. They do not need altered or added to. They do not need subtracted from. They do not need weird convoluted man-made theories foisted upon them.

 

[Keraz]

We can therefore confidently assume that, like Noah’s day, the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is a single event which involves the immediate and complete rescue of all His people coupled with the immediate and complete destruction of all the wicked. This Advent will affect the destruction of this current sin-cursed world.

But we are told of many things which must happen before the glorious Return. Certainly; there will be no rapture removal of anybody.
The whole of Revelation from Rev 6:12 to the end remains to be fulfilled.

Where many go wrong, is in mixing up the Day of Jesus Return, seen by all, with the terrible Day of His wrath, when He won't be seen.
Also; there is nothing in the descriptions of the glorious Return, which says total destruction will happen then. Jesus comes as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, He does not then preside over a smoking ruin. Zechariah 14:16-21 shows how it will be for the Millennium.

 

[MA2444]

Anyone that has engaged with Pretribbers on forums like this will know that they cannot furnish us with one single proof text to support their teaching. They cannot show you where in Scripture teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord. That is because it does not exist. It is a man-made doctrine. They seem incapable of recognizing that there is only one final future coming of the Lord. That event will see Jesus coming "with" and "for" His people. Multiple Scripture proves that He will rescue all His elect and then destroy all the wicked. This is shown to be the end!

Here are some of the revealing statements Pretribbers have made recently.














So, where is a Pretrib rapture in the Bible? Nowhere! They say this, yet refuse to abandon their error. Amazing! They say this, yet they want to change us and get us to believe this error. It is ridiculous!

The Bible evidence that supports one final future climatic coming of Jesus

The Bible shows us that there is one future coming of the Lord which is all-consummating.

The Greek word parousia appears 24 times in the New Testament. It is rendered “coming” in 22 passages and “presence” in 2. The word can be interpreted coming, arrival or presence and simply expresses in the Greek what it implies in the English. The word parousia is mostly applied in Scripture to the second coming of the Lord although it is not solely restricted to that Advent. In II Thessalonians 2:9 the word is applied to the arrival of antichrist. The word is also used in other passages to describe the coming or arrival of a person (1 Corinthians 16:17 and 2 Corinthians 7:6).

Notwithstanding, the first time we encounter the word parousia in relation to the coming of the Lord is in Matthew 24. The word is found in the disciples’ response to the Lord’s statement outside the temple.

In His discourse in Matthew 23:37-24:2 the Lord warns, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord (the second coming). Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The disciples then question the Lord on the detail, meaning and timing of this solemn prophecy and of the end of the world by way of two questions in Matthew 24:3, asking,

(1) “Tell us, when shall these things be?” and
(2) “what shall be the sign of thy coming [or parousia], and of the end [or sunteleías, or completion, or consummation] of the world?”

In this passage, "the end of the world" is plainly identified with the coming of the Lord.

The Lord employs the word parousia in reply to the disciples second question in Matthew 24:23-28, when He says, “if any man shall say unto you (before the one final future second coming of the Lord), Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son be. Wheresoever is the carcase, there will be gathered together the eagles.”

Christ continues in Matthew 24:29-31, speaking of this one final future coming, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming [Gr. erchomai] in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [Gr. episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Matthew 24:35-41 continues: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one ‘shall be taken’ [Gr. paralambano], and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one ‘shall be taken’ [Gr. paralambano], and the other left.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

The Lord uses the word parousia again in v 37 to equate the days preceding His coming to the days preceding Noah’s entry into the ark, saying, “as the days of Noe were, so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be.” In His reply, Christ confirmed, what the disciples already seem to have rightly comprehended, in their questioning, that His next Coming is His last and only future coming and that it ushers in “the end of the world (or age)”

We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”

Thus, the second coming of the Lord shall come in like manner, verse 39 confirms, “so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be.

Isn't that unethical? To take a mans words out of context to try to make it sound like I said there isnt any pretrib scriptures? You're such a liar. I didnt say there were no pretrib rapture scriptures. How many would you like? I have probably 20 to 30 of them.

You lost in the other thread and never did prove anything except that you have the comprehension of a 60 IQ man. If you're going to quote me use the entire post and not one cherry picked line.

 

[GISMYS_7]

LOL!!! Why fight the pre-trip rapture ask God I Think God will let you stay behind.

 

[WPM]

Isn't that unethical? To take a mans words out of context to try to make it sound like I said there isnt any pretrib scriptures? You're such a liar. I didnt say there were no pretrib rapture scriptures. How many would you like? I have probably 20 to 30 of them.

You lost in the other thread and never did prove anything except that you have the comprehension of a 60 IQ man. If you're going to quote me use the entire post and not one cherry picked line.

Not so. You ran from the discussion bereft of any proof texts.

Show all these Scriptures that show a rapture before a 7-year trib followed by your 3rd coming then.

I will not hold my breath. You were right in your quote. You know it. Now everyone will see how devoid Pretrib is and how you have nothing to bring to the table.

Bring the evidence to the table!

 

[WPM]

But we are told of many things which must happen before the glorious Return. Certainly; there will be no rapture removal of anybody.
The whole of Revelation from Rev 6:12 to the end remains to be fulfilled.

Where many go wrong, is in mixing up the Day of Jesus Return, seen by all, with the terrible Day of His wrath, when He won't be seen.
Also; there is nothing in the descriptions of the glorious Return, which says total destruction will happen then. Jesus comes as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, He does not then preside over a smoking ruin. Zechariah 14:16-21 shows how it will be for the Millennium.

The proof is above. You never address the verses that prove that.

 

[WPM]

you have the comprehension of a 60 IQ man.

Avoidance and ad hominem are you 2 main weapons in debate.

 

[Douggg]

John 14:

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus at His Second Coming to stand upon this earth will not be bringing those mansions with Him. The place He prepares is in heaven and that is where the rapture/resurrected saints will be taken.

It might be pre-70th week or it might not. But it has to be before the Day of the Lord begins, when God's wrath is poured out. Anytime between now and then.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But we are told of many things which must happen before the glorious Return. Certainly; there will be no rapture removal of anybody.
The whole of Revelation from Rev 6:12 to the end remains to be fulfilled.

Where many go wrong, is in mixing up the Day of Jesus Return, seen by all, with the terrible Day of His wrath, when He won't be seen.
Also; there is nothing in the descriptions of the glorious Return, which says total destruction will happen then. Jesus comes as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, He does not then preside over a smoking ruin. Zechariah 14:16-21 shows how it will be for the Millennium.

Jesus is coming to renew the earth, resulting in the new earth (2 Peter 3:10-13) He's not going to just burn it up and leave it as "a smoking ruin". No one said that.

Also, Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords now, but you don't seem to acknowledge that and think He won't be until He comes again.

Does the following not describe the current King of kings and Lord of lords?

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Paul said that Jesus, after God the Father "raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places" was then in a position of authority "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named...in this world". How can Jesus be in that position and not be King of kings and Lord of lords?! Impossible! Anyone who does not acknowledge that He is NOW the King of kings and Lord of lords is sadly mistaken! It says God the Father "hath put ALL things under his feet". How could ALL things have been put under his feet without Him then being "King of kings and Lord of lords"? Impossible! He IS the King of kings and Lord of lords.

How can any Christian think that Zechariah 14:16-21 has a future fulfillment? Impossible!

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

I assume you take this passage literally. Taken literally, this passage is talking about animal sacrifices and offerings being reinstated because part of keeping the feast of tabernacles is performing animal sacrifices and offerings. The reference to the pots being used for them "that sacrifice" also indicates that. This is impossible! Hebrews 8-10 makes it abundantly clear that Christ's sacrifice "once for all" was the only sacrifice that would ever be needed ever again. God doesn't even desire animal sacrifices and offerings and takes no pleasure in them (Hebrews 10:5-8), so why would He reinstate them? Especially considering that no other sacrifice is needed after Christ's "once for all sacrifice? He wouldn't and He won't. Why do you not interpret Zechariah 14 in light of what is taught in the book of Hebrews and the entire New Testament? Thinking that animal sacrifices and offerings would be reinstated is the ultimate insult to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross! You need to rethink all of this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Isn't that unethical? To take a mans words out of context to try to make it sound like I said there isnt any pretrib scriptures? You're such a liar. I didnt say there were no pretrib rapture scriptures. How many would you like? I have probably 20 to 30 of them.

Calm down. Anyone who has seen your posts knows you are pretrib, so what are you worried about? He quoted you word for word and if you actually read his posts you would know that his point was to show how even pretribs like you admit that there aren't any verses which explicitly teach a pretrib rapture. That's all he's saying. He never said you're not pretrib. No need to get all bent out of shape over him making a point about how pretrib is not explicitly taught anywhere in scripture.

You think it's taught implicitly. Okay. But, it's interesting to see any pretribs admit that it's not taught explicitly anywhere in scripture. I actually give you credit for doing that because many pretribs won't even do that even thought it's obviously the case.

You lost in the other thread and never did prove anything except that you have the comprehension of a 60 IQ man. If you're going to quote me use the entire post and not one cherry picked line.

Nowhere did he say you don't believe in pretrib and, again, anyone who has seen your posts knows you are pretrib. So, again, what are you even worried about here? Your childish insults don't solve anything.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL!!! Why fight the pre-trip rapture ask God I Think God will let you stay behind.

You fancy yourself a comedian, do you? Are you afraid of persecution and tribulation? Is that why you believe in pretrib? I can't imagine any other reason since it definitely is not taught anywhere in scripture.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

John 14:

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus at His Second Coming to stand upon this earth will not be bringing those mansions with Him. The place He prepares is in heaven and that is where the rapture/resurrected saints will be taken.

You just make claims without backing them up. WPM made claims and backed them up with clear scripture. You noticeably are not even trying to refute anything he said in his posts. Which one of you should I take seriously? It's not a hard choice.

As for John 14:1-3, where does it say that Jesus will not bring heaven to earth and will instead bring us to heaven? It doesn't. Certainly not explicitly. Your doctrine is not based on clear, straightforward scripture like post-trib and amillennialism are. It instead is based on assumptions and speculation. And a lot of sensationalistic theories.

Paul wrote that we will meet Jesus "in the air", not in heaven (1 Thess 4:14-17). If we were going to be brought to heaven then why wouldn't we just be caught up directly to heaven rather than "in the air"? Pretrib has no answer for that.

When Jesus comes He is going to make new heavens and a new earth. While we are in the air, He will be burning up and renewing the heavens and the earth (2 Peter 3:10-13). It makes sense for us to be in the air rather than in heaven or on earth at that point because we can't be taken to heaven or earth while they are being dissolved and renewed (2 Peter 3:10-13). Peter said we are looking forward to new heavens and a new earth in accordance with Christ's second coming (2 Peter 3:13), not to a time of tribulation and 1000 years of a supposed earthly kingdom.

 

[WPM]

John 14:

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus at His Second Coming to stand upon this earth will not be bringing those mansions with Him. The place He prepares is in heaven and that is where the rapture/resurrected saints will be taken.

It might be pre-70th week or it might not. But it has to be before the Day of the Lord begins, when God's wrath is poured out. Anytime between now and then.





View attachment 47294

Jesus said, in John 14:1-3, “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

Something we should establish here due to the array of false teaching floating around on the subject: whilst this eternal abode Christ is currently preparing for His people is now in heaven there is no proof in this text that this city will remain in heaven after His coming. Jesus simply promises: “I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

Where Christ is at His appearing is where the heavenly city with its many mansions will be. This closely connects Christ to the holy city. One could take from this statement that the New Jerusalem will appear with Christ. It would be wise to see whether there is other Scripture to support or negate such a hypothesis.

Christ here directly addresses the undoubted concern of His disciples just prior to His heavenly removal. He clearly intended to convey a real sense of hope and comfort to His troubled disciples, in this reading, who were evidently concerned at the thought of the His impending departure. In doing so, He advanced some precious Divine truths, which are deserving of our careful consideration and note, none more so than the fact that He was assuredly returning for His saints. He plainly and succinctly declares, “if I go…I will come again.” This is the great assurance for every believer, that, yet, for a short season he is faced with earthly trials, tribulations and separation, it is but nothing in comparison to that place and condition which awaits God’s heavenly people.

The next thing of note we see is that Christ was, shortly after this incident, going to His “Father’s house” – heaven – to “prepare a place” for His people. That “place,” which was undoubtedly heavenly, and its final manifestation, is clearly identified here with the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The word rendered “prepare” here, in the King James Version, is the Greek word hetoimasoo which simply means ‘to make ready’. Therefore, Christ is presently preparing, or making ready, a heavenly abode for the redeemed of God, which they will inhabit at His glorious final all-consummating second coming.

The bride is represented as the holy city. Revelation 21:9-10 confirms: "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God."

The New Jerusalem is not just described as a city, it is also described as being the bride of Christ. This is similar to the redeemed Church being described as the temple of God made without hands in the New Testament. It is constructed with people not stones.

That “prepared” city is repeatedly described in Scripture as the New Jerusalem – the heavenly city. In a parallel passage in Revelation 3:11-12, Christ promises His people, while also speaking of His glorious all-consummating Second Advent, “Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

This second coming passage confirms our notion. The heavenly city comes down from heaven with Christ when He returns.

This reading informs us that this “place,” which Christ spoke of has a name; being described as the New Jerusalem and that it “cometh down out of heaven” at His appearing. This truth should help those who struggle with the meaning and timing of Revelation 20, because Revelation 21:1-2 (which all commentators agree) appears immediately after the happenings of Revelation 20. Therefore, it places its appearing, which we have already established coincides with the second coming of the Lord, at the end of the millennium thus revealing a postmillennial appearing of Christ. Christ connects the appearance of the New Jerusalem at His coming, declaring, “Behold, I come quickly.” It is at this all-consummating event that the New Jerusalem comes “down out of heaven from my God.”

Note that the exact detail described as occurring at the second coming – namely:

The “new Jerusalem” appears.
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven.”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven … from God.”

Further evidence that the prepared New Jerusalem is coming down to the new earth is found in Revelation 21:1-4. It declares, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

The New Jerusalem does not stay in heaven. At the end of the millennium, it descends to the new earth. We should not overlook: the detail described elsewhere in Scripture as occurring at the second coming of the Lord carefully matches that which takes place at the end of the millennium (definitely not the beginning). It is the “holy city, new Jerusalem” that is figuratively “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” and which corresponds with the Lord’s teaching in John 14. This city is the only “prepared place” alluded to in the whole of the New Testament. This city, which appears with Christ at His coming, is undoubtedly a heavenly “place” and is the single focus of every true saint of God – the place of eternal peace and rest from sin, the effects of sin (including death), and all sinners forever.

Knitting all these passages together reinforces the Amillennial and Postmillennial positions that Revelation 20 is speaking about a current period of time. It is clear Premillennialism has a major problem here. First, John 14:1-3 ties Christ to the heavenly city and presents that city, which is being prepared, as the eternal hope of the saints. If that city does not appear until after the millennium as a Premillennial reading of Revelation 20 would require then the saints will not experience that prepared city for over 1,000 years.

 

[Douggg]

Something we should establish here due to the array of false teaching floating around on the subject: whilst this eternal abode Christ is currently preparing for His people is now in heaven there is no proof in this text that this city will remain in heaven after His coming. Jesus simply promises: “I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

Jesus did not call the places in the many mansions in heaven - a city. Jesus was saying to each Christian that He was returning to heaven, and will someday come again for the purpose of receiving to Himself and taken to that place He has prepared in heaven.

The New Jerusalem does not appear on the New earth until after the one thousand reign of Jesus on this present earth (to be destroyed) and the Great White Throne Judgement.

Both the New Jerusalem and the New earth are created after the Great White Throne Judgment.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus did not call the places in the many mansions in heaven - a city. Jesus was saying to each Christian that He was returning to heaven, and will someday come again for the purpose of receiving to Himself and taken to that place He has prepared in heaven.

Do not change scripture, Doug. You play with fire doing that.

You said Jesus will "come again for the purpose of receiving to Himself and taken to that place He has prepared in heaven.". That is not what the text says. You are essentially saying here that Jesus said He would receive His people to Himself and then take them to heaven to the place He prepared for them. That is not what He said. He never specifically said He would take anyone to heaven. You are being deceptive and misleading here by falsely representing what Jesus actually said.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

What Jesus actually said was that He was going to leave the disciples and go to His Father's house to prepare a place for them (and the rest of His people which now includes us). This is an obvious allusion to His ascension to heaven that would take place after His resurrection from the dead. He then said after saying He would go to prepare a place for them in His Father's house (obviously heaven) that He would come again and receive them unto Himself. We know from 1 Thess 4:14-17 that the place where He will receive us to Himself is "in the air" which refers to somewhere above the earth in the earth's atmosphere.

What you falsely indicated that Jesus said would happen after He receives us to Himself is that He would then take us to heaven. That is not what He said, Doug. That is a lie. All He said after that is that where He is we would be also. All we know for certain is that the place where He will receive us unto Himself is "in the air". He did NOT specify where He would take us from there. He did NOT say one way or another whether He would bring heaven to us (something He, being God, is fully capable of doing) or take us to heaven.

What I believe does not make any sense at all is for Him to inexplicably leave heaven to receive us to Himself "in the air" only to then immediately turn around and bring us back with Him to heaven. Why would He do that? Why would He not instead just receive us to Himself directly in heaven, which He obviously could do if He wanted to? I've never seen any pretribs give a convincing explanation for this.

The New Jerusalem does not appear on the New earth until after the one thousand reign of Jesus on this present earth (to be destroyed) and the Great White Throne Judgement.

Where does Revelation 20 describe Jesus as reigning on this present earth?

 

[jeffweeder]

Do not change scripture, Doug. You play with fire doing that.

You said Jesus will "come again for the purpose of receiving to Himself and taken to that place He has prepared in heaven.". That is not what the text says. You are essentially saying here that Jesus said He would receive His people to Himself and then take them to heaven to the place He prepared for them. That is not what He said. He never specifically said He would take anyone to heaven. You are being deceptive and misleading here by falsely representing what Jesus actually said.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

What Jesus actually said was that He was going to leave the disciples and go to His Father's house to prepare a place for them (and the rest of His people which now includes us). This is an obvious allusion to His ascension to heaven that would take place after His resurrection from the dead. He then said after saying He would go to prepare a place for them in His Father's house (obviously heaven) that He would come again and receive them unto Himself. We know from 1 Thess 4:14-17 that the place where He will receive us to Himself is "in the air" which refers to somewhere above the earth in the earth's atmosphere.

What you falsely indicated that Jesus said would happen after He receives us to Himself is that He would then take us to heaven. That is not what He said, Doug. That is a lie. All He said after that is that where He is we would be also. All we know for certain is that the place where He will receive us unto Himself is "in the air". He did NOT specify where He would take us from there. He did NOT say one way or another whether He would bring heaven to us (something He, being God, is fully capable of doing) or take us to heaven.

What I believe does not make any sense at all is for Him to inexplicably leave heaven to receive us to Himself "in the air" only to then immediately turn around and bring us back with Him to heaven. Why would He do that? Why would He not instead just receive us to Himself directly in heaven, which He obviously could do if He wanted to? I've never seen any pretribs give a convincing explanation for this.


Where does Revelation 20 describe Jesus as reigning on this present earth?

I think the place he has gone to prepare is the NHNE. After all that's where we will dwell with God forever.
So, the Lord will come again, and we will be with him in the place prepared in a twinkling of an eye.


Rev 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away (vanished), and there is no longer any sea.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, arrayed like a bride adorned for her husband; 3 and then I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “See! The tabernacle of God is among men, and He will live among them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them [as their God,] 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be death; there will no longer be sorrow and anguish, or crying, or pain; for the former order of things has passed away.”

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true [they are accurate, incorruptible, and trustworthy].” 6 And He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the one who thirsts I will give [water] from the fountain of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes [the world by adhering faithfully to Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior] will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.


If Jesus is to be believed, then the underlined above has the second coming written all over it.

Matt 24
35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah.

Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Lk21
33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
34 “But be on guard, so that your hearts are not weighed down and depressed with the giddiness of debauchery and the nausea of self-indulgence and the worldly worries of life, and then that day [when the Messiah returns] will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who live on the face of all the earth. 36 But keep alert at all times [be attentive and ready], praying that you may have the strength and ability [to be found worthy and] to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man [at His coming].”