The Administration Of Tongues

[OzSpen]

Oz, sorry for the slow reply. I have been out of town. It was not my intention to say that miracles indicate poor spiritual maturity. It is my intention to say that miracles or tongues are not a test of strong spiritual maturity. My point is that there is nothing in the Scriptures that indicate these gifts have anything to do with maturity. If anything, Paul says these gifts do not aid in the maturity or building up of others. This is why he encouraged prophesy. So again, I am not saying these gifts are a sign of immaturity (if they are legitimately taking place today), but I just don't see any evidence that they have anything to do with maturity. That is the claim many Charismatics often make and I find it to be entirely baseless. This brings me to a couple thoughts about these gifts:

I also have found it difficult to be here as I've been preparing for my orals (PhD defence). Some things take priority.

I do not know why you are placing this emphasis on maturity vs immaturity when God has clearly told us this about the spiritual gifts: 'All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills' (1 Cor 12:11 ESV). Are you and I open to the Holy Spirit giving us the full range of charismata that the Spirit gives. Your general emphasis in your post indicates that you are not interested in the gift of tongues being manifest by the Spirit in your life. Have I gained a correct understanding of your view?

It's not a matter of maturity vs immaturity. It's based on a biblical, spiritual answer to this question: Am I open to the Holy Spirit apportioning to me whatever gifts he chooses, including tongues and interpretation? I'm not hearing that you are open to the latter.

1. There is no indication in the NT that miracles or tongues were gifts that were given for those who sought them passionately enough. In fact, we see tongues simply falling on people without any coaching, expectation or desire for this gift. To say that someone does not have the gift because they don't seek it enough tor because they do not have enough faith (which is a constant theme in charismatic circles I am aware of) finds no validation in Scripture whatsoever. Yes, Paul wished that they all spoke in tongues, but he preferred they all prophesy. So why are we so focused on tongues as such a meaningful gift when Paul not only indicates that not all would have this gift, but that there are other gifts to be much preferred. Again, Paul makes it clear that not all have the gift of tongues. And we see from the issues in the Corinthian church, that tongues is certainly not a barometer for one's spiritual maturity. If anything, it has nothing to do whatsoever with maturity or faith. I find no basis in the argument that all Christians should have a "prayer language" or should seek to speak in tongues.

This is not so. 1 Cor 14:1 (ESV) makes it very clear that spiritual gifts (a range has been given in 1 Cor 12-14) must be desired: 'Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophecy'.

I am not here to validate what you consider is 'a constant theme in charismatic circles'. When do you visit charismatic churches? How many have you attended in the last 12 months?

I'm here to discuss what the Scriptures state and I'm hearing from you a denigration of the scriptural gifts, especially of tongues. Tongues fell on people on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2) but we have a different manner of manifestation given in 1 Cor 12-14 where there 'are varieties of gifts' (1 Cor 12:4 ESV) manifest in the local church. Speaking of the range of the gifts of the Spirit (including tongues and interpretation), Paul stated, 'All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills' (1 Cor 12:11 ESV). Someone does not have the gift because God has not given it to that person. However, your opposition to these supernatural gifts is a fair indication that you are providing a block in your own life that prevents such manifestations coming through you. Paul's command to you and me is: 'Earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues' (1 Cor 14:39 ESV).

There is no such coaching for spiritual gifts but I tell you what is needed more and that is careful exegesis of the text and exposition of passages such as 1 Cor 12-14.

You say, 'So why are we so focused on tongues as such a meaningful gift when Paul not only indicates that not all would have this gift, but that there are other gifts to be much preferred'. Simply put, 'One who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God', uttering 'mysteries in the Spirit' (1 Cor 14:2 ESV). Surely everyone should want to speak to God in the Spirit? Well, I do. I praise God using the gift of tongues when he gives it to me. Non-charismatic churches will not allow me to do that, so I do it in my prayer time at home. 'The one who prophecies [another spiritual gift given by the Spirit] speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation' (1 Cor 14:3 ESV). So the gift of prophecy is clearly a manifestation among the people of God for spiritual edification. This is surely not to call such people immature but is to 'build up the church' (1 Cor 14:4 ESV). What does the person do who speaks in tongues? He or she 'builds up himself/herself' (14:4), which is not an egotistical ministry but one that is perfectly legitimate according to Paul.

You state, 'And we see from the issues in the Corinthian church, that tongues is certainly not a barometer for one's spiritual maturity. If anything, it has nothing to do whatsoever with maturity or faith.' That's your perspective. It's not what 1 Corinthians teaches. It teaches that what was happening in Corinth was disorder (which is also in some charismatic-Pentecostal churches in my region) and they needed to get back to this emphasis: 'But all things should be done decently and in order' (1 Cor 14:40 ESV). That emphasis is one that should be taught to many in the charismatic-Pentecostal ranks. But the problem is not with the nature of tongues and interpretation, but with how they are being exercised in the church. Extreme examples should not deter us from biblical emphases. I don't allow the Mormon view of prophecy to interfere with a biblical understanding of prophecy.

You say of the gift of tongues: 'If anything, it has nothing to do whatsoever with maturity or faith. I find no basis in the argument that all Christians should have a "prayer language" or should seek to speak in tongues'. Yours is not a biblical emphasis. Speaking in tongues has everything to do with maturity or faith because when a person has the genuine gift of tongues, he or she 'speaks not to men but to God' (1 Cor 14:2 ESV). Is that what you want to do - speak to God?

You could possibly respond, 'But I can do that in English'. You can, but the Holy Spirit comes upon people with the gift of tongues so that they speak to God through 'mysteries in the Spirit' (1 Cor 14:2). I never knew anything about such an understanding when I was a cessationist Baptist who did not believe in the charismata, including tongues and interpretation. That changed drastically for me in the early 1970s when God came upon me through a genuine manifestation of the gift of tongues where I was able to speak to God in a way that brought edification that I previously did not know.

2. You still did not answer the question about your view on tongues and miracles. If these gifts exist for the purpose of building up the local body, as you assert, why do we not see them in every local body? Does God not want most churches to be edified? Isn't it the Spirit who gives these gifts freely? Why is it that only those congregations that are coached to expect and desire these manifestations have them when this is not what we see in the NT? Again, I am not going to try to discount any supposed prophet and his miracles. I don't know the man and I am not in a position to claim you or this prophet are being false. I just simply think that if these gifts are for the purpose of the body being built up and not functional (they have a very specific function and should not be expected as a regular part of the Christian experience) then we should see them in most churches...and not just hear about them in remote places as very unusual circumstances.

I think you should now have some understanding of my view on tongues. However, why are these gifts not in every local body? Simply put, if tongues were to be manifest in the evangelical Presbyterian Church my wife and I currently attend, the person would be quickly ushered out of this cessationist church by the elders. It would cause such a ruckus that the person would be told never ever to engage in that kind of thing again. Frankly, it is NOT WANTED so it is never likely to happen in that church. I'm of the view that the Holy Spirit's ministry is frustrated, even blasphemed, when something like this happens. So, people who are open to the full range of gifts of the Spirit go to charismatic-Pentecostal churches where they will have the opportunity for the Spirit's manifestation through the gifts.

I think you are excessively harsh with your statement: 'Why is it that only those congregations that are coached to expect and desire these manifestations have them when this is not what we see in the NT'. That might be what you have seen or heard about in your region, but I have never ever been part of a charismatic-Pentecostal church that has engaged in 'coaching' (I find that to be pejorative language). I have been part of churches that have pursued the biblical mandate, 'Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts.... Do not forbid speaking in tongues' (1 Cor 14:1, 40 ESV).

You will not see them in churches that are denying that these supernatural charismata should be happening. I know from personal experience that cessationist churches would censor a person who wants the supernatural gifts to function. I attend a mid-week Bible study of another denomination and the pastor has come from a South African Pentecostal denomination. He has been told by the denominational leaders here in Australia that he MUST NOT ALLOW THE SPIRITUAL GIFTS - especially tongues - TO HAPPEN IN THAT CHURCH.

3. You also did not answer my question as to your Scriptural validation that tongues is merely an ecstatic utterance and not a miraculous speaking in another human language. If tongues does exist today, I am still not convinced that what is happening in most charismatic circles meets the NT definition of this gift.

I'll start with your last comment. What I have seen in some charismatic-Pentecostal churches (not all of them that I have attended) is not consistent with the biblical manifestation of tongues and interpretation. For example, if tongues are manifest (aloud so all can hear) in a congregation, there MUST BE the gift of interpretation accompanying. Otherwise, 'I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me' (1 Cor 14:11 ESV). The biblical emphasis with the gifts is to 'strive to excel in building up the church' (1 Cor 14:12 ESV). That means there must be intelligibility - English in Australia, Spanish in Spain, Arabic in Saudi Arabia, etc. 'Building up the church' is a ministry of edification. Surely that cannot be described as an immature ministry!!!

I would not use the language that tongues is 'an ecstatic utterance' because that is not a biblical emphasis. Tongues is a divine gift of the Spirit that needs the accompanying gift of interpretation.

Tongues may be a miraculous gift in another human language, but who am I to tell God what he should do when he gives the gift of tongues? He has told us what he does: The one speaking with the Spirit's gift of tongues - given in love - 'utters mysteries in the Spirit'. I would never ever be so brazen as to tell God that he MUST DO IT with human languages that are spoken on this earth? I would be foolish to tell the omnipotent Trinitarian God what he must do to satisfy my inability to understand all he does through 'mysteries in the Spirit'.

For this I pray that it will happen in more and more churches: 'When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up' (I Cor 14:26 ESV). One of the great tragedies of the contemporary church is that the people of God are convinced that only a handful of people - pastors, elders, teachers, etc - have gifts and most of God's people are not allowed to function when the church gathers.

This has been a lengthy post, but your questions have been penetrating and I wanted to give a biblical understanding - limited though it is - of God's emphasis on the gifts.

You might be interested in my explanation of a bad experience I had in a charismatic house church. See: Charismatic chaos in a Brisbane house church

In Christ,
Oz

 

[emekrus]

Yes, that is the perception of most charismatics. However, I find no evidence that tongues is a gauge of faith or maturity anywhere in the NT. So, while I appreciate your personal view on the matter, I don't think the Word of God substantiates it.

Yes, Mark 16 does say that these "signs" would accompany believers. A "sign" is simply that...as sign. So, if we were to say that this section of Mark 16 is part of the actual letter Mark wrote (which more likely than not this section was added later), then it proves my point that these gifts were functional and were signs to point to something bigger. These gifts were not for edification of the church, but were signs to validate the early message. Should Christians drink poison to prove they are legitimate followers of Jesus? No, but early attempts to poison Christians because of their faith were sometimes (not always) unsuccessful and testified to the fact that something quite supernatural was at work among these believers. I think the same is true with being bitten by venomous snakes or speaking in tongues. These early signs validated to onlookers that this new, small group of people were, in fact, different and special. I am sure you likely do not have people handling venomous snakes or drinking poison in your congregation weekly to prove your faith, why should tongues be viewed differently and expected to take place continually and used as a proof for someone's spiritual maturity? These gifts were "signs to the unbelievers" and were not tests of maturity or means by which the body was edified. Therefore, it had a function and should not be a focal point of our attention. As Paul says, (my paraphrase), "If you want to focus on a gift, focus on one that builds other believers up for goodness sake!"

Well, my brother, I have to honor you as the scriptures admonished, by respecting your point of view. Although I'm not here to magnify the gift of tongues above all else as many others think. I'm sharing my experiences for the sole aim of directing people to the personal edification I have received from God praying maximally in tongues.

And I believe this motive is edifying to the folks who believe and accept what I have written in the opening post. Well, for those who believe they are ok without tongues there is no problem. After all, tongues or any spiritual gift for that matter won't take anyone to heaven, it is righteousness and faith that will.

Hence, I shared my experiences here that I received from God through praying in tongue in order to ease up the holiness and faith process (Cos it's not by might or by power, but by the help of the Spirit of God). But if someone knows other ways of engaging the Holy Spirit, for the fight of faith, well, it is ok.

Then finally, as concerning people just stepping out to take poison, I think why people don't do that, is bcos it will amount to foolishness. As it is a kind of tempting God. But People like us, always love to open our mouths in faith to pray in the Holy Ghost (In Tongues or Prophecy) because it builds up our most Holy Faith (according to Jude 1: 20).

Carry on with your faith brother,

Cheers!

 

[Wormwood]

Emerkus,

Thank you for respecting my position as I respect yours. I want you to know that I am certainly open to any gift or ability the gracious Lord would desire to bestow upon my life. My only desire is to please and honor him (although I know I do it imperfectly). My prayer for you is that you continue strong and built up in the faith and walk out your faith with full earnestness and sincerity. I ask for your prayers for me as well as I desire to do the same. I know that one day as we stand before the Lord in his presence that the only thing that will matter is that we sought to trust him with all of our being and walk in a way that honored him and helped others to know his great mercy in Jesus Christ. May the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus continue to be poured out on you and my brothers and sisters there in Nigeria.

 

[Butch5]

Butch,

Another red herring. You've demonstrated when you use a logical fallacy, we can't have a logical discussion.

Bye,
Oz

Oz, it's pretty obvious where the fallacy lies, it's not with me.

 

[mjrhealth]

Tongues is a divine gift of the Spirit that needs the accompanying gift of interpretation.

This is only when one is speaking to others, for which teh words where given, when one prays in tongues only God kows what it is you are saying. As for "wanting", I received teh Holy Spirirt, nealry 10 years before I gave my Life to Jesus, He was not asked for He was given because of Gods grace and His purpose. As for tongues I oly use that occasionaly, Im quiet content to talk to God direct,
Forget trying to figure God out you never will and stop putting Him in a box, tha tonly frustrates His purpose.

In All His Love

 

[OzSpen]

Oz, it's pretty obvious where the fallacy lies, it's not with me.

Yep, and I'm responding to him.

 

[OzSpen]

This is only when one is speaking to others, for which teh words where given, when one prays in tongues only God kows what it is you are saying. As for "wanting", I received teh Holy Spirirt, nealry 10 years before I gave my Life to Jesus, He was not asked for He was given because of Gods grace and His purpose. As for tongues I oly use that occasionaly, Im quiet content to talk to God direct,
Forget trying to figure God out you never will and stop putting Him in a box, tha tonly frustrates His purpose.

In All His Love

mjr,

That's the view that I take in my understanding of 1 Cor 14:2 (ESV) that when speaks in tongues it is speaking to God and we are uttering 'mysteries in the Spirit'.

Since we receive the Holy Spirit at conversion, I do not know how you can speak of receiving the Holy Spirit 10 years before you became a Christian (see Eph 1:13-14 ESV).

 

[mjrhealth]

We receive the Holy Spirirt when God chooses to give Him , whe one believes God, but we are always running aroung tying God up. Let God be God and let Him do His will not yours.

In all His Love

 

[OzSpen]

We receive the Holy Spirirt when God chooses to give Him , whe one believes God, but we are always running aroung tying God up. Let God be God and let Him do His will not yours.

In all His Love

That not what Eph 1:13-14 ESV states.

 

[mjrhealth]

When you discover that teh bible is not God, and go to God, than you will know God. Till than all you will know is the bible.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Oh how we complicate God ,

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

In All His Love

 

[OzSpen]

When you discover that teh bible is not God, and go to God, than you will know God. Till than all you will know is the bible.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Oh how we complicate God ,

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

In All His Love

It is in the Bible that we learn about how to get saved. It is in the Bible that we learn about the proper functioning of the gifts of the Spirit.

Why is Scripture so important, and not to be put down like you did here? 'All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work' (2 Tim 3:16-17 ESV).

The reason I'm committed to Scripture is because, as these verses affirm, it comes from God. When Scripture is 'breathed out by God' - theopneustos - God is its source so what Scripture says, God says.

Oz

 

[mjrhealth]

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching,

There was a reason why we are given teh Holy Spirit and it is not to teach us the bible, He is given to teach us the truth. there is a God outusde teh bible, the living God ,the one who is the God of the living not of the dead, the one that breathed life into man, created teh universe, gave us Love and Grace, offered His son up for our sakes, bore our fithy sin upon His Son so we would not be burdedend with them the one that offers us life, What did Jesus say.

You search the scriptures(OT) thinking they bring you life, yet they point to me, but you wont come to me so I can give you life.

Tell me which part is scripture since in the bible they where refering to teh OT not the new. and which part is not, which part is from God which part is from man??

I remain commiited to Christ since He is the truth and in Him there is nou guile.

In all His Love

 

[OzSpen]

There was a reason why we are given teh Holy Spirit and it is not to teach us the bible, He is given to teach us the truth. there is a God outusde teh bible, the living God ,the one who is the God of the living not of the dead, the one that breathed life into man, created teh universe, gave us Love and Grace, offered His son up for our sakes, bore our fithy sin upon His Son so we would not be burdedend with them the one that offers us life, What did Jesus say.

You search the scriptures(OT) thinking they bring you life, yet they point to me, but you wont come to me so I can give you life.

Tell me which part is scripture since in the bible they where refering to teh OT not the new. and which part is not, which part is from God which part is from man??

I remain commiited to Christ since He is the truth and in Him there is nou guile.

In all His Love

But your thinking here sounds very confused.

 

[mjrhealth]

But your thinking here sounds very confused.

I am not entitled to think neither am I entitled to My opinion, God care nought for the opinions of men,God deals only in truth.

Why do you say Im am confused, the bible tells me of Jesus. I went to Jesus, now I am His. What is it the bible says,

Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Now I have a teacher, what more do I need,I have God and His Son even the Holy Spirit, In them there is no lie.

Which is teh greater, teh dead letter or the living God.

In All His Love

 

[OzSpen]

I am not entitled to think neither am I entitled to My opinion, God care nought for the opinions of men,God deals only in truth.

Why do you say Im am confused, the bible tells me of Jesus. I went to Jesus, now I am His. What is it the bible says,

Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Now I have a teacher, what more do I need,I have God and His Son even the Holy Spirit, In them there is no lie.

Which is teh greater, teh dead letter or the living God.

In All His Love

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but don't expect me to believe it until you back it with evidence.

Let's use this post as a small example of the 'confusion' that your teachings cause for me:

• 'God care nought for the opinions of men'. But God says: 'And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him' (Heb 11:6 ESV). God does care about the opinions of people. They must believe that He exists.
• 'God deals only in truth'. What is truth?
• 'the bible tells me of Jesus. I went to Jesus, now I am His. What is it the bible says'. But then you speak of 'the dead letter'. Are you talking about the Bible?
• 'I went to Jesus, now I am His'. What does that mean: Now I am His?
• 'Now I have a teacher, what more do I need'. But this teacher is not using material from the Bible???
• 'I have God and His Son even the Holy Spirit'. Who is this Holy Spirit? What do you mean by 'even the Holy Spirit'?
• 'Which is teh greater, teh dead letter or the living God'. What are you talking about?

This is but one same of the confusion you are communicating in your posts, from my understanding.

Oz

 

[mjrhealth]

God does care about the opinions of people

Believing in God is not an opinion.

If you need me to answer the rest, than I guess you should read you bible its all in there.