The Bible doesn't instruct to pray to Jesus

[Runningman]

Of course Jesus isn’t the Father. My original point was that your claim, “John 16:23,24 supersedes John 14:13,14 in the biblical timeline,” in no way whatsoever “proves that there are no instructions to pray to Jesus in the Bible.”

Then the reverse is true. You have in no way shape, or form, proven that there is any instruction to pray to Jesus in the Bible.

If “me” is in the text, Jesus is simply saying that we can ask things of both him and the Father.

John 16:23 comes later in the Biblical timeline. So why did Jesus state to not ask him for anything?

Perhaps some similar things, but Jesus said some vastly different things. Jesus claimed to be the Christ, the Son of God, and the Son of Man. He claimed to have come from heaven (John 3:13; 6:33-33, 38, 51; 8:23; 16:28), to have timeless existence (John 8:58;17:5, 24), and to be omnipresent (Matt. 18:20).

All these things, and more, point to Jesus being truly God just as he is truly man. So, as God he is worthy of our worship, as we see a few times in NT, and we can pray to him.

You're reading too far into the text. If you are attempting to extend the titles "Son of God" and "Son of Man" to refer to deity, then you run into a consistency issue in which the others who are referred to as son of God or son of man in the Bible must also be God.

Additionally, you're adding some concepts to the Bible that are not stated.

Let me ask it like this: is this the same person who uttered the phrase “before Abraham was born, I am,” who said that he is a man (John 8:40), who called the Father the “only true God” (John 17:3), who called the Father greater than himself (John 14:28), who said he could do nothing from himself (John 5:19, 30), who said that he does not seek his own will but the will of the Father (John 5:30; 6:38), who called the Father his authority (John 5:26-27; Matthew 28:18), who called the Father the one who gave him his words (John 12:49-50; 14:10), who said that the Father had taught him (John 8:28), who said that he had been sent by God (John 8:42), who spoke of his own God (John 20:17; Revelation 3:12), who acknowledged that only the Father had access to some knowledge that he did not (Mark 13:32), and who ultimately would give the Kingdom back to God that he might be “all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)? If so, what is your take on all those passages vis a vis Jesus being God? If they are the same speaker, then you have an issue justifying praying to Jesus.

What Jesus didn’t say was, “Don’t ask me for anything.”

Jhn 16:23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, whatever you ask of the Father in my name, he will give it to you.

First, Jesus is speaking of a specific time—“In that day.” It certainly refers to after his resurrection but also likely to after his ascension (16:16-22). Second, in that day, they “will ask nothing.” That is very different from telling them to not ask him for anything. He is essentially saying that they will not need to ask him.

Also, if it is true that Jesus had said to ask him and now says to ask the Father, there is no problem. It would simply mean we can ask both of them for things.

Jesus saying to not ask him for anything is in line with his only teaching on prayer, which he specifically instructed is for the Father (Matthew 6:6,9)

 

[Runningman]

Worshipping Jesus? How about Thomas? Remember how he had refused at first to believe that Jesus had risen from the dead. When he met the risen Saviour, we read:

(Joh 20:28 NKJV) And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

We read of Stephen praying for Jesus to receive his spirit:

(Act 7:59) And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

Acts 7:59 doesn't contain the word "God" in the original manuscript. That was an addition to the English translation. May I ask why you think calling out to someone means it's a prayer?

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Case in point.

No thanks. satan has tried to talk me in to that before. I'll pass.

And did you do that this time? It sure doesn't seem so, as you didn't even answer my question nor actually address what was stated in the previous post you responded to.

Your "question" was faulty, lacked credibility, and was foolish and unlearned (2 Timothy 2:23).

I'll stick with God's Word taught by THE Teacher the Holy Spirit.

Only those being led by the devil would claim we should all bow down to false teachers and ignore God's Word and the Teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Those doing such are deceived and are the purveyors of false doctrine. The devil loves these people as they are assisting him in spreading a fake "gospel" and a different "jesus" than the Jesus of the Bible.

So if you want to follow the false doctrines off the so called "reformers" then make thyself at home and enjoy!

You’re promoting the heresy of Modalism/Oneness theology.

So how many different "gods" do you claim to serve now?

You did understand that there is only ONE True God, right?

This nonsense that we must pray to The Father as if it is not the same as to Christ, is utter folly.

Jesus specifically said we are to pray to the Father in Jesus' Name (John 16:23)
Are you sure you want to make the demonic claim that Jesus taught folly?
That would be aligning one's self with satan.

Do we not pray to God for forgiveness in Jesus' name...Amen?

Those claiming Jesus taught "folly" apparently do not, so they are still on the hook for all their sins.

It's really sad when the devil talks people in to rejecting what Jesus plainly tells us.

Others pray: "Lord forgive me".
And still Others just say: "God help me".

Jesus specifically said to pray to the Father IN JESUS NAME

You still having problems understanding what Jesus instructed His followers to do? Still???

 

[Runningman]

As I stated before – I already did give you an example (2 Cor. 12:8-9).

That doesn't say which Lord Paul was referring to. So you have not provided an example of "praying to Jesus."

And it was Paul who declared that “Jesus Christ is LORD” (Phi. 2:10-11).

Yes, but who else is Lord (Matthew 11:26, Acts 17:24,25)? The Father is the Lord of heaven and earth and the Sovereign Lord (Acts 4:23-31) and the Lord. Based on all of the precedent of everyone else praying to the Father, why would you suppose out of the blue that Paul prayed to Jesus? He never did that elsewhere.

Another explicit example is when Stephen was being martyred. His final prayer was to Jesus:
"Lord Jesus, receive my spirit,", followed immediately by by, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them" (Acts 7:59.)

That doesn't say the word "prayer."

In 1 Cor., Paul prays to Jesus:
1 Cor. 16:22
If anyone does not love the Lord, let that person be cursed! Come, Lord!

That isn't a prayer. That's Paul writing about the Lord coming.

Paul is PRAYING for His return.
Again – YOUR problem is that you don’t understand the Scriptures.

2 Pet. 3:16
“… as he does in all his (Paul’s) letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

Well, you have not proven that Jesus was prayed to nor provided any instruction to do so. It doesn't exist in the Bible.

 

[Runningman]

Which (greek) text?
That comment (the Greek text) is disingenuous.
Why?
I'm glad you asked.
Everybody knows (or should know by now, since the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947) that there is no such thing as "the Greek text".

I'm referring to the Greek manuscripts that the Bible is translated into English from. There is no mention of God there in that particular verse.

 

[Runningman]

Your post and query assume that Jesus is NOT also The Father.
Isaiah

Do you believe Jesus is the Father?

You are making an assumption based upon a faulty understanding of the Godhead.

How do you define "Godhead?"

Isaiah 9:6-7 clearly teaches that Jesus IS the Everlasting Father and therefore it is right and proper to pray to either He or Our Father.

Maybe you're reading the wrong translation? Other's write it differently.

Isaiah 9 Brenton's Septuagint Translation
6For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

Yeshayahu (Isaiah) - Chapter 9 (CJB)
5For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."

This argument causes an ungodly and unnecessary argument within the body of Christ.

Be at peace.

I hardly consider praying to the wrong person something worth letting go to the wayside for the sake of comfort.

 

[Runningman]

This has to be the winner here. Of all excuses I have ever heard-and I've heard them all-- this one by RunningMan takes the cake. I think we all need to be aware that when a heart is hard we can't undo it. We plant, and someone waters, but leave it there and expect nothing. To continue arguing just gives a ridiculous thread credibility.
Angels are directed by God the Father to Worship His Son - and Runningman's comment is......

Angels being directed by God to worship a human at the birth of Jesus isn't the same thing as directing the angels to worship God nor is it a teaching for Christians in general to worship Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

I quoted the OP for the convenience of others (who have probably forgotten what it actually says). The OP itself falls into the category of "argument from silence". The Bible neither authorizes nor prohibits prayer to Jesus. (Though the John 14:14 arguments come close.) The OP understands the silence as an effective prohibition.

The complete absence of such an instruction to pray to Jesus becomes meaningful evidence in and of itself. Evidence is not only what is present, it's also what one would reasonably expect to be present. Something as important as prayer is in Christianity, lacking any instruction on praying to Jesus, gives us insight into the thought of early Christians. They obviously didn't think "pray to Jesus" was something necessary to teach, mention, or clearly do.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

That doesn't say which Lord Paul was referring to. So you have not provided an example of "praying to Jesus."

So your story is there are multiple Gods???

That doesn't say the word "prayer."

None the less Stephen is addressing Jesus, speaking directly to Jesus.

Well, you have not proven that Jesus was prayed to nor provided any instruction to do so. It doesn't exist in the Bible.

Jesus did say to pray to the Father in Jesus' Name.

But, Stephen was obviously addressing Jesus, speaking directly to Jesus as he made a request speaking directly to Jesus and Jesus was so impressed He STOOD UP AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER so we know what Stephen did by speaking directly to Jesus was not a sin and was pleasing to Jesus.

You cannot explain this away. You claim the word "prayer" is not in that portion of scripture so it was not a prayer.

Going by that logic, trinity is not in the Bible anywhere so your logic says there is no such things as the trinity

 

[PS95]

Angels being directed by God to worship a human at the birth of Jesus isn't the same thing as directing the angels to worship God nor is it a teaching for Christians in general to worship Jesus.

I heard you the first time. I have no words for this reply. It's just too lame. I've already given you the trophy.

 

[Runningman]

I heard you the first time. I have no words for this reply. It's just too lame. I've already given you the trophy.

It may help if you can explain your perspective a little better. If I may ask, why do you feel that the angels worshipping Jesus at his birth is an instruction that extends to the church? Is it because it's Jesus or if anyone in the Bible is worshipped then you see that as an instruction for the church to worship them?

 

[JimKnox]

No thanks. satan has tried to talk me in to that before. I'll pass.




Your "question" was faulty, lacked credibility, and was foolish and unlearned (2 Timothy 2:23).

I'll stick with God's Word taught by THE Teacher the Holy Spirit.

Only those being led by the devil would claim we should all bow down to false teachers and ignore God's Word and the Teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Those doing such are deceived and are the purveyors of false doctrine. The devil loves these people as they are assisting him in spreading a fake "gospel" and a different "jesus" than the Jesus of the Bible.

So if you want to follow the false doctrines off the so called "reformers" then make thyself at home and enjoy!




So how many different "gods" do you claim to serve now?

You did understand that there is only ONE True God, right?




Jesus specifically said we are to pray to the Father in Jesus' Name (John 16:23)
Are you sure you want to make the demonic claim that Jesus taught folly?
That would be aligning one's self with satan.




Those claiming Jesus taught "folly" apparently do not, so they are still on the hook for all their sins.

It's really sad when the devil talks people in to rejecting what Jesus plainly tells us.




Jesus specifically said to pray to the Father IN JESUS NAME

You still having problems understanding what Jesus instructed His followers to do? Still???

Apparently, everyone who disagrees with you is "of da debil"!!!!

I bet you are fun at parties.

 

[Runningman]

So your story is there are multiple Gods???

No, just one God, the Father.

None the less Stephen is addressing Jesus, speaking directly to Jesus.

That's plausbile.

Jesus did say to pray to the Father in Jesus' Name.

But, Stephen was obviously addressing Jesus, speaking directly to Jesus as he made a request speaking directly to Jesus and Jesus was so impressed He STOOD UP AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER so we know what Stephen did by speaking directly to Jesus was not a sin and was pleasing to Jesus.

You cannot explain this away. You claim the word "prayer" is not in that portion of scripture so it was not a prayer.

There are diffident nuances to how the communication is described. We could call out to each other without praying, for example.

Going by that logic, trinity is not in the Bible anywhere so your logic says there is no such things as the trinity

I agree. There is no trinity either in the Bible or in reality.

 

[PS95]

It may help if you can explain your perspective a little better. If I may ask, why do you feel that the angels worshipping Jesus at his birth is an instruction that extends to the church? Is it because it's Jesus or if anyone in the Bible is worshipped then you see that as an instruction for the church to worship them?

The scriptures are clear - worship only God. That ought to be enough for you.
Like I have stated, if Jesus is good enough for angels to worship- I have no clue how anyone could arrive at the thought that He is not worthy of our worship also.
John in Rev was told only to worship God when he attempted to worship an angel. That same angel worships the Lord Jesus.
Your problem is simple- you HAVE to deny that- because you do not believe that Jesus is the WORD of God whom all things including, the angels were created through. To deny the Lord that, is to deny Him.
That's the crux of your problem, as I mentioned before. you will continue to deny anything and everything I show you because it's a stranglehold.
You've forgotten- I'm not new at this. I grew up with most of these lies- but even a jw doesn't deny He is the Word- they just made Him an
unworshippable created little angel-god...

 

[Runningman]

The scriptures are clear - worship only God. That ought to be enough for you.
Like I have stated, if Jesus is good enough for angels to worship- I have no clue how anyone could arrive at the thought that He is not worthy of our worship also.
John in Rev was told only to worship God when he attempted to worship an angel. That same angel worships the Lord Jesus.
Your problem is simple- you HAVE to deny that- because you do not believe that Jesus is the WORD of God whom all things including, the angels were created through. To deny the Lord that, is to deny Him.
That's the crux of your problem, as I mentioned before. you will continue to deny anything and everything I show you because it's a stranglehold.
You've forgotten- I'm not new at this. I grew up with most of these lies- but even a jw doesn't deny He is the Word- they just made Him an
unworshippable created little angel-god...

I agree only worship God, but the issue is that just because the translation says in Hebrews 1:6, “Let all God’s angels worship Him.” is not proof that Jesus was being worshipped in the same sense God is commanded to be worshipped.

Let's dig a little deeper and just vet the translation for Biblical consistency. In Hebrews 1:6, it says the angels gave Jesus προσκυνησάτωσαν (proskynēsatōsan) which means to fawn or crouch to, i.e. prostrate oneself in homage. Throughout the Bible, others receive the same sort of thing. One example is Revelation 3:9, which says "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." But no one says Jesus was saying that it means that the synagogue of Satan would worship the church as God does it? Elsewhere, we see the same word (proskynēsatōsan) that is usually translated as worship for Jesus, instead translated often as "bow down" or "knelt down" showing an unwarranted translation bias. Examples where neither God or Jesus received proskynēsatōsan, but they didn't call it worship, are Matthew 18:26, Acts 20:25, Revelation 3:9. Instead they call it being bowed down to.

So an honest translation of Hebrews 1:6 could be “Let all God’s angels bow down to him" and that would defang/declaw the way the translators twisted it out of context.

So there are no instructions to worship Jesus as God in the Bible.

 

[Justified]

Then the reverse is true. You have in no way shape, or form, proven that there is any instruction to pray to Jesus in the Bible.

But he is truly God and deserving of worship, including prayer.

John 16:23 comes later in the Biblical timeline.

And that isn’t relevant; I’ve already pointed out why.

So why did Jesus state to not ask him for anything?

Again, he didn’t. Please address the points I made rather than simply repeating your assertions which I addressed.

You're reading too far into the text. If you are attempting to extend the titles "Son of God" and "Son of Man" to refer to deity, then you run into a consistency issue in which the others who are referred to as son of God or son of man in the Bible must also be God.

Additionally, you're adding some concepts to the Bible that are not stated.

Let me ask it like this: is this the same person who uttered the phrase “before Abraham was born, I am,” who said that he is a man (John 8:40), who called the Father the “only true God” (John 17:3), who called the Father greater than himself (John 14:28), who said he could do nothing from himself (John 5:19, 30), who said that he does not seek his own will but the will of the Father (John 5:30; 6:38), who called the Father his authority (John 5:26-27; Matthew 28:18), who called the Father the one who gave him his words (John 12:49-50; 14:10), who said that the Father had taught him (John 8:28), who said that he had been sent by God (John 8:42), who spoke of his own God (John 20:17; Revelation 3:12), who acknowledged that only the Father had access to some knowledge that he did not (Mark 13:32), and who ultimately would give the Kingdom back to God that he might be “all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)? If so, what is your take on all those passages vis a vis Jesus being God? If they are the same speaker, then you have an issue justifying praying to Jesus.

Of course they’re not the same person. Are you going to actually address the points I made, which were supported by scripture, or just continue dodging with posts like this? It shows you’re purposely ignoring crucial context.

Jesus saying to not ask him for anything is in line with his only teaching on prayer, which he specifically instructed is for the Father (Matthew 6:6,9)

Again, Jesus didn’t say to not ask him, he said there would be no need to ask him. It would be nest for discussion if you actually addressed points being made rather than simply repeating what you’ve already stated, as though that makes it true.

 

[doctrox]

So an honest translation of Hebrews 1:6 could be “Let all God’s angels bow down to him" and that would defang/declaw the way the translators twisted it out of context.

Ahhh, it took you awhile to come out - denigrating the word of God and rather deferring to so-called "twisted" translators to make your case.

It shows you’re purposely ignoring crucial context.

So there are no instructions to worship Jesus as God in the Bible.

As you've been repeatedly shown with scripture, we pray to the Father in Jesus' name - your strawman notwithstanding.

You've just killed your own OP.

 

[Justified]

No thanks. satan has tried to talk me in to that before. I'll pass.

Case in point again.

Your "question" was faulty, lacked credibility, and was foolish and unlearned (2 Timothy 2:23).

I'll stick with God's Word taught by THE Teacher the Holy Spirit.

This was my question: ‘What does the Holy Spirit teach you about "Everlasting Father" in Isa. 9:6?’

Now it seems you want to hide behind scripture to avoid answering it, a question which is far from your claims about it, given that that was the context of your initial statement.

Only those being led by the devil would claim we should all bow down to false teachers and ignore God's Word and the Teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Those doing such are deceived and are the purveyors of false doctrine. The devil loves these people as they are assisting him in spreading a fake "gospel" and a different "jesus" than the Jesus of the Bible.

And who is making such claims?

So if you want to follow the false doctrines off the so called "reformers" then make thyself at home and enjoy!

What false doctrines? What do you have against the Reformation?

So how many different "gods" do you claim to serve now?

You did understand that there is only ONE True God, right?

Are you actually reading what I’ve written? Do you disagree with the doctrine of the Trinity?

 

[PS95]

I agree only worship God, but the issue is that just because the translation says in Hebrews 1:6, “Let all God’s angels worship Him.” is not proof that Jesus was being worshipped in the same sense God is commanded to be worshipped.

Let's dig a little deeper and just vet the translation for Biblical consistency. In Hebrews 1:6, it says the angels gave Jesus προσκυνησάτωσαν (proskynēsatōsan) which means to fawn or crouch to, i.e. prostrate oneself in homage. Throughout the Bible, others receive the same sort of thing. One example is Revelation 3:9, which says "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." But no one says Jesus was saying that it means that the synagogue of Satan would worship the church as God does it? Elsewhere, we see the same word (proskynēsatōsan) that is usually translated as worship for Jesus, instead translated often as "bow down" or "knelt down" showing an unwarranted translation bias. Examples where neither God or Jesus received proskynēsatōsan, but they didn't call it worship, are Matthew 18:26, Acts 20:25, Revelation 3:9. Instead they call it being bowed down to.

So an honest translation of Hebrews 1:6 could be “Let all God’s angels bow down to him" and that would defang/declaw the way the translators twisted it out of context.

So there are no instructions to worship Jesus as God in the Bible.

The trouble with that is that there are multiple occasions where Jesus received and accepted worship. We cant just dismiss that as homage due to the fact that Peter knew full well to only worship God and Peter refused worship - same word- proskuneo- from Cornelius and his reason was "because I too am a MAN".
Acts 10:26-
But Peter helped him up, saying, “Stand up; I, too, am just a man.”

The Lord Jesus never said any such thing when worshipped.
Peter worshipped Jesus. He knew.
Just as the angel refused proskuneo from John- Peter refused proskuneo from Cornelius. Yet-Jesus always received proskuneo.

As to angels- no I would never think that mere homage is being spoken of there. They are angels who are above man- they certainly know who created them- (John 1 and Col 1- Heb 1) you deny this. like I said it's a real problem.
Revelation 5---
13And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power
forever and ever!” And the four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshipped.

as to your verse- it's Isaiah 60:14 fulfillment- “The sons of those who afflicted you will come bowing to you, And all those who despised you will bow themselves at the soles of your feet; And they will call you the city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
I see this as their being humbled by God - His church, being called, the New Jerusalem- the Zion of God-

Isaiah 45:23
By Myself I have sworn; truth has gone out from My mouth, a word that will not be revoked: Every knee will bow before Me, every tongue will swear allegiance.

Philippians 2:10
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Psalm 95:6
Come, let us worship and bow down, Let us kneel before the LORD our Maker.

Romans 14:11
It is written: “As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God.”

Psalm 22-
28For the kingdom is the LORD’S,
And He rules over the nations.
29All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
30Posterity will serve Him;
It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.
31They will come and will declare His righteousness
To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.

That's enough for now- I'm sure you know of all of the places in the NT where Jesus received and accepted worship (proskuneo). Four simple questions for you to contemplate , RMan-
In the NT,
1. Do angels accept proskuneo?
2. Do godly men accept proskuneo?
3. Who do the angels say we are to give proskuneo only to?
4. Does The Lord Jesus accept proskuneo?