The Bible doesn't instruct to pray to Jesus

[Runningman]

But he is truly God and deserving of worship, including prayer.


And that isn’t relevant; I’ve already pointed out why.


Again, he didn’t. Please address the points I made rather than simply repeating your assertions which I addressed.


Of course they’re not the same person. Are you going to actually address the points I made, which were supported by scripture, or just continue dodging with posts like this? It shows you’re purposely ignoring crucial context.


Again, Jesus didn’t say to not ask him, he said there would be no need to ask him. It would be nest for discussion if you actually addressed points being made rather than simply repeating what you’ve already stated, as though that makes it true.

I did address your points which is why I am showing you Jesus said to not ask him for anything. You saying "he didn't say that" doesn't make it cease to exist. So let's zero in on it.

What did Jesus say below?

John 16
23In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you.

 

[Runningman]

The trouble with that is that there are multiple occasions where Jesus received and accepted worship. We cant just dismiss that as homage due to the fact that Peter knew full well to only worship God and Peter refused worship - same word- proskuneo- from Cornelius and his reason was "because I too am a MAN".
Acts 10:26-
But Peter helped him up, saying, “Stand up; I, too, am just a man.”

The Lord Jesus never said any such thing when worshipped.
Peter worshipped Jesus. He knew.
Just as the angel refused proskuneo from John- Peter refused proskuneo from Cornelius. Yet-Jesus always received proskuneo.

As to angels- no I would never think that mere homage is being spoken of there. They are angels who are above man- they certainly know who created them- (John 1 and Col 1- Heb 1) you deny this. like I said it's a real problem.
Revelation 5---
13And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power
forever and ever!” And the four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshipped.

as to your verse- it's Isaiah 60:14 fulfillment- “The sons of those who afflicted you will come bowing to you, And all those who despised you will bow themselves at the soles of your feet; And they will call you the city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
I see this as their being humbled by God - His church, being called, the New Jerusalem- the Zion of God-

Isaiah 45:23
By Myself I have sworn; truth has gone out from My mouth, a word that will not be revoked: Every knee will bow before Me, every tongue will swear allegiance.

Philippians 2:10
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Psalm 95:6
Come, let us worship and bow down, Let us kneel before the LORD our Maker.

Romans 14:11
It is written: “As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God.”

Psalm 22-
28For the kingdom is the LORD’S,
And He rules over the nations.
29All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
30Posterity will serve Him;
It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.
31They will come and will declare His righteousness
To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.

That's enough for now- I'm sure you know of all of the places in the NT where Jesus received and accepted worship (proskuneo). Four simple questions for you to contemplate , RMan-
In the NT,
1. Do angels accept proskuneo?
2. Do godly men accept proskuneo?
3. Who do the angels say we are to give proskuneo only to?
4. Does The Lord Jesus accept proskuneo?

The issue with your perspective here seems to be that you are assuming the premise proves the conclusion. You are essentially saying that every instance of προσκυνέω (proskyneō) directed toward Jesus must mean it's the kind of worship that belongs exclusively God. We will soon see it doesn't.

As pointed out in my previous post, this word essentially means to bow down or kneel in the sense of paying homage. In Scripture, many recipients who are clearly not God receive proskyneō so the mere presence of this word cannot establish deity.

Let's take a look at your premise and see if it makes sense.

​

In Revelation 3:9, the synagogue of Satan will be made to give proskyneō (worship) to the church of Philadelphia. Did God perpetuate idolatry and suggest the church would be getting worshipped as God just because the church accepted the worship?​

​

In 1 Sam 24:8 (LXX) David gave proskyneō to King Saul. Did king Saul act as Lord God Almighty because he accepted the same thing that Jesus did?​

​

In 1 Kings 1:23 (LXX) Nathaniel gave proskyneō to King David. Did Nathaniel willingly and knowingly give the kind of worship reserved exclusively for God to King David, and David knowingly accepted it with a smile?​

The point I am really trying to make here is that bowing in Hebrews culture is not always considered an act of God worship or meant to convey the idea that the giver and recipient of proskyneō believe they are being worshipped as God. So you can't just say "Jesus was worshipped, that means he is God" because that isn't how it works.

With that being said, let's look at some of the examples you used. Please be patient because I am going to point out how you've quoted things out of context.

In Revelation 5:13, you didn't include the fact that the Lamb is not the Throne Sitter who is being worshipped. So let's rewind a bit. Revelation 5:7 says "And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne." You can read forward from there and see that where they are worshipping is not where the Lamb is seated, rather where they are worshipping is the One on the throne the Lamb came and took the scroll from.

In Philippians 2:10, I would like to draw your attention to this part "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth" that you are attempting to conflate with Isaiah 45:23, Psalm 22:9, Romans 14:11, etc where it says they will bow before God. The issue is that Philippians 2:10 doesn't say they will bow before Jesus. It says "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow..."

Bowing at the name of Jesus is not the same statement as bowing to Jesus. "At the name" refers to the authority by which everyone will bow to the Father, hence Philippians 2:11 says "and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

So you have not made a 1:1 connection between bowing to God and bowing to Jesus. I don't see your argument as convincing.

I will leave you with a thought on the only instruction in the NT regarding worship. Who did Jesus teach to worship in spirit and truth?

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

 

[Dan Clarkston]

I bet you are fun at parties.

Well, I don't espouse carnal minded man made religion so if anyone at a party would like to actually know the Lord Jesus and escape hell, I can help with that.

Case in point again.

Yes case in point... I'm not one of the ones listening to satan's perversion of God's Word.

That's plausbile.

No, that's exactly what Stephen did as we see in scripture - he was speaking directly to Jesus.

We could call out to each other without praying, for example.

You praying to other people? Are you catholic or something?

I agree. There is no trinity either in the Bible or in reality.

Thank you for verifying you know so little of scripture.

Ever see all the scriptures about the Father?
Ever see all the scriptures about Jesus?
Ever see all the scriptures about the Holy Spirit?

Here’s a few of passages of scripture nobody can explain away:

Matthew 3:16,17
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One.

1 John 5:8
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one

The perpetually perplexed ones heads will explode when they try explain these passages away

you want to hide behind scripture

Some folk be stuck in the old covenant not knowing there's a New Covenant now...

And who is making such claims?

Any mirror can help you with that question.

What false doctrines? What do you have against the Reformation?

The so called "reformation" was nothing more than trading catholic false doctrine for a new set of false doctrines.

The "reformation" was an abject failure simply because they failed to return to the Doctrine of Christ, aka the Doctrine of the Apostles. The reformation failure continues today and the devil is still laughing at how easy it is to deceive people with religious spirits.

Are you actually reading what I’ve written?

Only up to the point where the false doctrine starts.

Praying to the Father in Jesus' name is what I am saying. Praying to the Father is what I am saying. We agree about that it seems, so amen. I think you're actually the first to agree with the OP. No one has disproved it, it started going in circles, arguments against Scripture started repeating, so I am open to other topics.

That's the instructions Jesus provided - pray directly to the Father in Jesus' Name.

 

[Justified]

I did address your points which is why I am showing you Jesus said to not ask him for anything. You saying "he didn't say that" doesn't make it cease to exist. So let's zero in on it.

What did Jesus say below?

John 16
23In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you.

I’ve already addressed this, twice. Again, you’re ignoring context. First, Jesus is speaking of a specific time—“In that day.” It certainly refers to after his resurrection but also likely to after his ascension (16:16-22). Second, in that day, they “will ask nothing.” That is very different from telling them to not ask him for anything. He is essentially saying that they will not need to ask him.

 

[Justified]

You're reading too far into the text. If you are attempting to extend the titles "Son of God" and "Son of Man" to refer to deity, then you run into a consistency issue in which the others who are referred to as son of God or son of man in the Bible must also be God.

You’re missing a couple of key things. First, Jesus uses the title Son of man of himself, and either the definite article, so not “a Son of man,” but “the Son of man.” It is a messianic title from Daniel 7:13, used of the divine human-like figure.

Second and similarly, the title Son of God is used of Jesus with the definite article. It is abundantly clear from all that the NT states, that Jesus is considered the only Son of God. I shouldn’t need to provide references but if you need me to, I will. And John makes it clear that salvation is based on the fact that he is the one and only Son (John 1:18; 20:31). We can easily see that these terms are used of Jesus in ways that are used of no one else.

Additionally, you're adding some concepts to the Bible that are not stated.

Which concepts? Everything I’ve stated has been supported by scripture.

 

[Justified]

Well, I don't espouse carnal minded man made religion.

You just espouse your own.

Some folk be stuck in the old covenant not knowing there's a New Covenant now...

What does that have to do with anything I’ve said?

Any mirror can help you with that question.

Your claim was: “Only those being led by the devil would claim we should all bow down to false teachers and ignore God's Word and the Teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit.”

Now you’re saying I have made such a claim? Either provide the exact place I made such a claim or retract it. You’re bearing false witness.

The so called "reformation" was nothing more than trading catholic false doctrine for a new set of false doctrines.

The "reformation" was an abject failure simply because they failed to return to the Doctrine of Christ, aka the Doctrine of the Apostles. The reformation failure continues today and the devil is still laughing at how easy it is to deceive people with religious spirits.

Which doctrines are false? It seems the only religious spirit is your self-righteous attitude.

Only up to the point where the false doctrine starts.

What false doctrine, specifically?

You se to make a lot of claims but provide no evidence, which means you’re only giving opinion.

 

[Brakelite]

It may help if you can explain your perspective a little better. If I may ask, why do you feel that the angels worshipping Jesus at his birth is an instruction that extends to the church? Is it because it's Jesus or if anyone in the Bible is worshipped then you see that as an instruction for the church to worship them?

Butting in...the angels worshipped Jesus because He was worthy. If Jesus was worthy to receive worship from angels, then He's worthy to receive worship from anyone.

 

[Brakelite]

Let me ask it like this: is this the same person who uttered the phrase “before Abraham was born, I am,” who said that he is a man (John 8:40), who called the Father the “only true God” (John 17:3), who called the Father greater than himself (John 14:28), who said he could do nothing from himself (John 5:19, 30), who said that he does not seek his own will but the will of the Father (John 5:30; 6:38), who called the Father his authority (John 5:26-27; Matthew 28:18), who called the Father the one who gave him his words (John 12:49-50; 14:10), who said that the Father had taught him (John 8:28), who said that he had been sent by God (John 8:42), who spoke of his own God (John 20:17; Revelation 3:12), who acknowledged that only the Father had access to some knowledge that he did not (Mark 13:32), and who ultimately would give the Kingdom back to God that he might be “all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)? If so, what is your take on all those passages vis a vis Jesus being God? If they are the same speaker, then you have an issue justifying praying to Jesus.

In the quote above you have accurately and with great lucidity expressed the best explanation for precisely why we all ought to be honouring the Son as e honor the Father.
The natural born child of a lion is not a tiger. The natural born child of a giraffe is not a wildebeest. The natural born child of a human is not an albatross. Then why do you suppose that the only begotten Son of God is anything other than God?
All the scriptures above confirm the correct and righteous way to honour one's Father. Submission. Recognition that the Father is the source of your life and authority. Acknowledgement that as the greatest centre of power and glory in the universe, He alone is worthy in the end to be recognized as King of His own Kingdom.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Which doctrines are false?

The so called reformation was built upon scripture twisting and cherry picking.

Nobody expects those that don't accept the whole counsel of God to understand

What false doctrine, specifically?

Those following a drunk (Luther) and a murderer (Calvin) leads to walking with the devil while being deceived in to thinking they are walking with the Lord.

Too bad some folk choose faulty spiritual leaders to follow which they will regret for all eternity

Butting in...the angels worshipped Jesus because He was worthy. If Jesus was worthy to receive worship from angels, then He's worthy to receive worship from anyone.

Those of us that have been born again are above the angels now.

We are IN Christ and the angels are not, plus we are created in God's Image, and angels are not.

 

[Runningman]

In the quote above you have accurately and with great lucidity expressed the best explanation for precisely why we all ought to be honouring the Son as e honor the Father.
The natural born child of a lion is not a tiger. The natural born child of a giraffe is not a wildebeest. The natural born child of a human is not an albatross. Then why do you suppose that the only begotten Son of God is anything other than God?
All the scriptures above confirm the correct and righteous way to honour one's Father. Submission. Recognition that the Father is the source of your life and authority. Acknowledgement that as the greatest centre of power and glory in the universe, He alone is worthy in the end to be recognized as King of His own Kingdom.

Ok, but on the matter of "who is talking" when Jesus spoke, let me ask it a little differently to get my point across the way I meant. When Jesus talks, is that a human speaking or God speaking?

For example, Mark 13:32 says "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." If that is a human speaking, saying the Father knows things he doesn't know, then no problem. If that is God talking, then that would be God confessing He doesn't know something.

Getting to my point, since we can demonstrate repeatedly, exhaustively even, that when Jesus spoke he was speaking as a human, then when Jesus spoke as a human in John 14:14, saying, "You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." he wasn't trying to create a new teaching on praying to humans. Just in that context, while they were face to face in Israel, Jesus was saying they can ask them for things, Jesus would always in turn ask his God in prayer for whatever they asked.

cc: @Justified

 

[Runningman]

I’ve already addressed this, twice. Again, you’re ignoring context. First, Jesus is speaking of a specific time—“In that day.” It certainly refers to after his resurrection but also likely to after his ascension (16:16-22). Second, in that day, they “will ask nothing.” That is very different from telling them to not ask him for anything. He is essentially saying that they will not need to ask him.

Let me point out an important nuance of what Jesus said. He said "In that day you will no longer ask Me anything"

Jesus is saying, from that point forward, don't ask me for things ever again. After that, Jesus told them who to ask: "whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you."

The standing order going forward to is pray to the Father in Jesus' name. That's in line with praying to the Father just as Jesus taught in Matthew 6:6,9.

I get where you're coming from though. I was shocked when I first realized it too. I guess 99.9% of the world of Christendom is praying in a way the Bible never actually teaches. Once you notice these things, you're going to see a lot of what's really going on in the church. It jam packed with all kinds of heresies, especially the Catholic and Protestant churches, in my humble opinion.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

When Jesus talks, is that a human speaking or God speaking?

Avoid foolish and unlearned questions (2 Timothy 2:23)

If you knew the gospels you would know that Jesus said He only says and does what He sees the Father say and do.

Here's your sign!

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Once you notice these things, you're going to see a lot of what's really going on in the church. It jam packed with all kinds of heresies, especially the Catholic and Protestant churches, in my humble opinion.

Yeah, the catholics and churches following so called "reformed theology" are teaching heresy

 

[amigo de christo]

The worship of JESUS is in Hebrews = from beginning to end.

1:3 - The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word.

1:5 - For to which of the angels did God ever say:
“You are My Son; today I have become Your Father”?
Or again: “I will be His Father, and He will be My Son”?

1:6 - And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all God’s angels worship Him.”

But about the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,
and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness
and hated wickedness;
therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
above Your companions with the oil of joy.”

SOUND IT OUT FOR ALL TO HEAR . JESUS be the GLORY OF GOD , THE VERY WORD OF GOD .
MY WORD shall NOT return VOID , IT SHALL ACCOMPLISH ..................
And every word of GOD is the T RUTH spoken BY GOD through of ten the prophets .
And lastly UNTO all BY THE SON HIMSELF , WHO has revealed , WHO has made MANIFEST THE VERY N AME OF GOD .
And all His words are our meat my friend . But unto all who try and twist and omit
such words , WELL peter had it right , THEY DO SO unto their own destruction .
but the sheep , OH the sheep , JESUS HAS THEM . AND HE do they follow and HE leads them
and DO keep gaurd from behind as well . JESUS , OH DAVID my friend , HE DOES HAVE HIS SHEEP .
And they sure do LOVE THE TRUTH . FOR GOD has given them SUCH A HEART . and the love of a harlot
THEY WILL not heed her love . FOR HER love , loves A FAT LIE and sells naught but reb ellion to THE HOLY GOD , unto
all who sit under her .

 

[Runningman]

You’re missing a couple of key things. First, Jesus uses the title Son of man of himself, and either the definite article, so not “a Son of man,” but “the Son of man.” It is a messianic title from Daniel 7:13, used of the divine human-like figure.

Second and similarly, the title Son of God is used of Jesus with the definite article. It is abundantly clear from all that the NT states, that Jesus is considered the only Son of God. I shouldn’t need to provide references but if you need me to, I will. And John makes it clear that salvation is based on the fact that he is the one and only Son (John 1:18; 20:31). We can easily see that these terms are used of Jesus in ways that are used of no one else.


Which concepts? Everything I’ve stated has been supported by scripture.

I am glad you have studied this, but I would like to draw your attention to a few things.

1. The LXX rarely refers to "son of man" using the definite article. That's important. Daniel 7:13, Psalm 80:17, and various other messianic prophecies regarding Jesus lack the definite article. Meaning, depending on which manuscript you look at, Jesus is broadly referred to as "a son of man" in Hebrew prophecy. This gives us important insight into the mind of early Greek-speaking Jews who penned the LXX. The didn't necessarily see the prophesied messiah as the (definite article) son of man.

2. Jesus is repeatedly referred to as a "a Son" throughout the New Testament. For your studying, you may see John 10:36, Hebrews 1:5, Hebrews 4:3-6, Hebrews 5:8, Revelation 21:7, etc.

So the angle you are looking at this doesn't necessarily help. Jesus as "the Son of God" versus "a Son of God" is purely semantical depending on context and what the grammar requires. Jesus is actually one of the many sons of God, he even confessed to such in John 10:34-36.

 

[Marvelloustime]

SOUND IT OUT FOR ALL TO HEAR . JESUS be the GLORY OF GOD , THE VERY WORD OF GOD .
MY WORD shall NOT return VOID , IT SHALL ACCOMPLISH ..................
And every word of GOD is the T RUTH spoken BY GOD through of ten the prophets .
And lastly UNTO all BY THE SON HIMSELF , WHO has revealed , WHO has made MANIFEST THE VERY N AME OF GOD .
And all His words are our meat my friend . But unto all who try and twist and omit
such words , WELL peter had it right , THEY DO SO unto their own destruction .
but the sheep , OH the sheep , JESUS HAS THEM . AND HE do they follow and HE leads them
and DO keep gaurd from behind as well . JESUS , OH DAVID my friend , HE DOES HAVE HIS SHEEP .
And they sure do LOVE THE TRUTH . FOR GOD has given them SUCH A HEART . and the love of a harlot
THEY WILL not heed her love . FOR HER love , loves A FAT LIE and sells naught but reb ellion to THE HOLY GOD , unto
all who sit under her .

@amigo de christo

 

[amigo de christo]

You can call me by my Hebrew name
or by it's meaning = 'beloved'

דָּוִ֗ד (dā·wiḏ)
Noun - proper - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 1732: David = 'beloved'

friend i have been given many names by this generation . And beleive me , I aint about to repeat some of them .
Marvel not if the world hates you , IT hated ME first . I have called you OUT of the world
and therfore the world will hate you .
Now why o why do we think the world hates JESUS and hates his sheep .
HERE BE A MASSIVE CLUE .
The world cannot hate you , but me it hates for i TESTIFY that its works are evil .
THAT BE WHY . many love da rkness my freind . MANY no love and embrace the LIGHT
cause THE LIGHT exposes the very things they love most . THEY SINS .
And this is why many in christendom also preach another jesus , one that darn sure seems
to be REAL SIN FRIENDLY and ACCEPTING , and also one that seems to HATE even the WORDS OF GOD .
EVER GET THE FEELING heavy is and great is the deception . that many truly do love a lie
for they have NOT THE LOVE OF GOD upon their hearts .

 

[Marvelloustime]

friend i have been given many names by this generation . And beleive me , I aint about to repeat some of them .
Marvel not if the world hates you , IT hated ME first . I have called you OUT of the world
and therfore the world will hate you .
Now why o why do we think the world hates JESUS and hates his sheep .
HERE BE A MASSIVE CLUE .
The world cannot hate you , but me it hates for i TESTIFY that its works are evil .
THAT BE WHY . many love da rkness my freind . MANY no love and embrace the LIGHT
cause THE LIGHT exposes the very things they love most . THEY SINS .
And this is why many in christendom also preach another jesus , one that darn sure seems
to be REAL SIN FRIENDLY and ACCEPTING , and also one that seems to HATE even the WORDS OF GOD .
EVER GET THE FEELING heavy is and great is the deception . that many truly do love a lie
for they have NOT THE LOVE OF GOD upon their hearts .

@amigo de christo

 

[David in NJ]

SOUND IT OUT FOR ALL TO HEAR . JESUS be the GLORY OF GOD , THE VERY WORD OF GOD .
MY WORD shall NOT return VOID , IT SHALL ACCOMPLISH ..................
And every word of GOD is the T RUTH spoken BY GOD through of ten the prophets .
And lastly UNTO all BY THE SON HIMSELF , WHO has revealed , WHO has made MANIFEST THE VERY N AME OF GOD .
And all His words are our meat my friend . But unto all who try and twist and omit
such words , WELL peter had it right , THEY DO SO unto their own destruction .
but the sheep , OH the sheep , JESUS HAS THEM . AND HE do they follow and HE leads them
and DO keep gaurd from behind as well . JESUS , OH DAVID my friend , HE DOES HAVE HIS SHEEP .
And they sure do LOVE THE TRUTH . FOR GOD has given them SUCH A HEART . and the love of a harlot
THEY WILL not heed her love . FOR HER love , loves A FAT LIE and sells naught but reb ellion to THE HOLY GOD , unto
all who sit under her .

The administrators on that other forum sure do love the RCC

They will not allow truth to be spoken = even deleting the Holy Scriptures.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

They will not allow truth to be spoken = even deleting the Holy Scriptures.

Well they do put their traditions above what God says in His Word so this is how they roll