The Bible doesn't instruct to pray to Jesus

[amigo de christo]

And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”
11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice:

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
13And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
14Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.

​

POINT to Christ to the last breath my friend .
A serious and deadly mindset has come upon and infiltrated even much of christendom .
So i leave us with a question . WHO is the temple John saw in heaven . GOD AND THE LAMB .
And as we see in what you haven shown them in revelation
To glorify He whom GOD did send , GLORIFIES THE FATHER .
The two are not seperate . And just in that passage you brought us , HOW CLEARLY
it is seen the worship and praise of GOD and THE LAMB .
To kneel before HIM , as the shocked thomas did , and when he said MY LORD and MY GOD
Was not error on the behalf of this s ir t homas the doubter who saw and beleived and knelt and said .
FOR had it been error to do or say such a t hing , JESUS had rebuked thomas
JUST LIKE HE DID when he did show t homas his error . But on that day with those words from t homas ,
THEM WORDS , JESUS DID NOT CORRECT .
JESUS did not do as the angel did when john knelt before it either . For the angel REBUKED john
and said Worship not me , WORSHIP GOD .
But JESUS never told this john who fell before HE who had said , Fear not , I AM THE FIRST and THE LAST .
I DIDNT see that angel say that . NOR did i see all of heaven , the angels , the saints
ALL kneeling before some angel and casting crowns unto it . BUT THEY SURE DID DO SO unto GOD AND THE LAMB .
FOR GOD IS HIS WORD , HE IS SPIRIT and IS TRUTH
I never heard a prophet , an angel or any saying this either , I AM THE WAY , THE TRUTH and THE LIFE .
Folks act like to HONOR THE SON is somehow DISHONORING the FATHER .
BUT what i say to one i say to all . HE who HONORS the SON , HONORS THE FATHER .
And it was indeed GOD who saved us . God did not send an angel that took on human flesh .
HE SENT THE WORD which was made flesh . And that WORD was with GOD in the beginning
and the Word was God . HIS ARM has brought salvation.
And HE has well spoken and said I AM and there is no other GOD besides ME
and MY GLORY will i share with no other . AND YET , and yet what do we see in revelation .
THE FATHER AND THE SON as ONE recieving the worship and praise of all the created .
Thems aint TWO GODS . Just like it aint two temples one of GOD the other of Christ . ONE TEMPLE .
ONE GOD , ONE LORD , ONE FAITH , ONE fat and happy praises with thanksgivings
being sang unto GOD and THE LAMB who liveth forever and ever and ever , and by WHOM ALL
things were CREATED .

 

[David in NJ]

But not worship or prayer. Odd huh?

Well, you first have to open your eyes to READ the angels and 24 Elders worshipping God and the LAMB

 

[amigo de christo]

Well, you first have to open your eyes to READ the angels and 24 Elders worshipping God and the LAMB

Many have long treated the words of GOD as in error and cast them out . As we see
The PROPHETS warning by THE SPIRIT unto the jews way back .
Lastly HE sent THE WORD made flesh . And many cast him and his words out as well .
THERE IS NO genunie heartfelt and TRUE WORSHIP of GOD
unto any who casts out His w ords . FOR the true sheep WORSHIP GOD in SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH .
And the WORD OF GOD IS TRUTH as HE IS TRUTH .
To honor GOD one would have honored His teachings . Obeyed . The one thing
the one TRUE GOD has always d esired above even praise , even sacrifice
IS OBEDIANCE . Now abraham , I KNOW had faith . GOD spoke HE beleived , HE obeyed .
And HE rejoiced to see JESUS day and saw it and was GLAD .

 

[Marvelloustime]

Many have long treated the words of GOD as in error and cast them out . As we see
The PROPHETS warning by THE SPIRIT unto the jews way back .
Lastly HE sent THE WORD made flesh . And many cast him and his words out as well .
THERE IS NO genunie heartfelt and TRUE WORSHIP of GOD
unto any who casts out His w ords . FOR the true sheep WORSHIP GOD in SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH .
And the WORD OF GOD IS TRUTH as HE IS TRUTH .
To honor GOD one would have honored His teachings . Obeyed . The one thing
the one TRUE GOD has always d esired above even praise , even sacrifice
IS OBEDIANCE . Now abraham , I KNOW had faith . GOD spoke HE beleived , HE obeyed .
And HE rejoiced to see JESUS day and saw it and was GLAD .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

POINT to Christ to the last breath my friend .
A serious and deadly mindset has come upon and infiltrated even much of christendom .
So i leave us with a question . WHO is the temple John saw in heaven . GOD AND THE LAMB .
And as we see in what you haven shown them in revelation
To glorify He whom GOD did send , GLORIFIES THE FATHER .
The two are not seperate . And just in that passage you brought us , HOW CLEARLY
it is seen the worship and praise of GOD and THE LAMB .
To kneel before HIM , as the shocked thomas did , and when he said MY LORD and MY GOD
Was not error on the behalf of this s ir t homas the doubter who saw and beleived and knelt and said .
FOR had it been error to do or say such a t hing , JESUS had rebuked thomas
JUST LIKE HE DID when he did show t homas his error . But on that day with those words from t homas ,
THEM WORDS , JESUS DID NOT CORRECT .
JESUS did not do as the angel did when john knelt before it either . For the angel REBUKED john
and said Worship not me , WORSHIP GOD .
But JESUS never told this john who fell before HE who had said , Fear not , I AM THE FIRST and THE LAST .
I DIDNT see that angel say that . NOR did i see all of heaven , the angels , the saints
ALL kneeling before some angel and casting crowns unto it . BUT THEY SURE DID DO SO unto GOD AND THE LAMB .
FOR GOD IS HIS WORD , HE IS SPIRIT and IS TRUTH
I never heard a prophet , an angel or any saying this either , I AM THE WAY , THE TRUTH and THE LIFE .
Folks act like to HONOR THE SON is somehow DISHONORING the FATHER .
BUT what i say to one i say to all . HE who HONORS the SON , HONORS THE FATHER .
And it was indeed GOD who saved us . God did not send an angel that took on human flesh .
HE SENT THE WORD which was made flesh . And that WORD was with GOD in the beginning
and the Word was God . HIS ARM has brought salvation.
And HE has well spoken and said I AM and there is no other GOD besides ME
and MY GLORY will i share with no other . AND YET , and yet what do we see in revelation .
THE FATHER AND THE SON as ONE recieving the worship and praise of all the created .
Thems aint TWO GODS . Just like it aint two temples one of GOD the other of Christ . ONE TEMPLE .
ONE GOD , ONE LORD , ONE FAITH , ONE fat and happy praises with thanksgivings
being sang unto GOD and THE LAMB who liveth forever and ever and ever , and by WHOM ALL
things were CREATED .

@amigo de christo

 

[Runningman]

Rman- You've forgotten I didn't just fall off of the turnip truck here. I was raised with much your skewed theology. It wasn't just an overnight decision on my part to leave it. It took me many years and much research and prayer. I did not take my decision lightly. So, if you think that anything you say to me has not already been delved into very deeply you would be very mistaken. I tire easily with this topic simply due to the fact that I have been steeped in this stuff since my childhood. I have lost my entire family due to shunning over my beliefs vs theirs (jw) for over 30 years now. Don't take that lightly. So, for you to insinuate that that am assuming anything without understanding your point is sort of hitting a nerve. So if you don't mind please refrain from empty assumptions.
I am of course fully aware that homage was given to the secular. However, you just dismiss what I am saying to you. You ignore questions that I ask you, and just plow ahead with the same rhetoric. It's always the same with all of you. -- This is really very simple to me, but you have the need to complicate it for the sake of your agenda. you put words in my mouth. Please don't do that. Before I go to your verses below- one of which I have already addressed- please reply to my very simple questions-

Ok understood. Good to know where you're coming from.

In the NT,
1. Do angels accept proskuneo?
2. Do godly men accept proskuneo?
3. Who do the angels say we are to give proskuneo only to?
4. Does The Lord Jesus accept proskuneo?

I am actually trying to understand what you mean by "accept" proskuneo. So I am looking it over. If by accept you mean that people in the Bible (excluding angels) received proskuneo whether or not they affirmed in the positive that it's right, even Jesus didn't do that. There aren't any examples of anyone explicitly consenting to it that I have found or can remember off the top of my head. Do you mean that because they were never stopped that it infers acceptance? Jesus isn't the only one who never commented on someone bowing to him.

So let me answer your questions directly and if you feel like replying you can.

In the NT,
1. Do angels accept proskuneo? No
2. Do godly men accept proskuneo? No
3. Who do the angels say we are to give proskuneo only to? God
4. Does The Lord Jesus accept proskuneo? No

I know you're being very specific in your wording and questions, but maybe if you can narrow down a bit more how you define acceptance of something we can get to the root of it. To be honest, correct me if I am wrong, I get the vibe that if someone isn't stopped then you're deriving acceptance from that. If so, didn't Jesus know that Judas was regularly stealing from the money bag for X amount of time yet never said anything? We don't say Jesus accepts stealing though. There's really a lot of different things Jesus didn't stop.

I already addressed this in my last reply. I do not take that as literal- do you really suppose that JESUS will line up the "Jews" and line the church members and make them literally bow to them? I don't think that for a minute. C'mon now. He is saying that they will indeed be humbled and forced to admit that the church is His.- It is the fulfillment of
Isaiah 60:14 “The sons of those who afflicted you will come bowing to you, And all those who despised you will bow themselves at the soles of your feet; And they will call you the city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.--
The church is being called, the city of God- The ZION of the Holy One of Israel.
To these who call themselves Jews and are not- to call the church they persecuted, the city of God/ZION is insanely humbling. They will be forced to admit TRUTH.

It was said specifically to the church of Philadelphia. The messages to the seven churches didn't apply equally to all of the different congregations. It could be a literal lining up and bowing kind of situation, a kind of public humiliation for the bad guys and a public honor for the good guys.

You've forgotten Daniel 2:6- it's even more so! It's obvious that the customs then were different- we do not bow to kings now. Worship is homage and homage is worship. They are synonyms. Here ya go-https://thesaurus.plus/related/homage/worship
Get that straight first. It was akin to what the Japanese do when bowing to each other. I recall Obama bowing to the Saudis. I would not bow to anyone myself, as I see it as a form of worship. Did the apostles agree with me? Yes. Peter certainly did not accept proskuneo. But I suppose you would? You would be wrong according to the angel in revelation who distinctly aid- DO NOT DO THAT- to John- Proskuneo only GOD.
So my point is really very simple- you can toss at me 9000 instances of proskueno given to the secular. I will just keep repeating that we are clearly now commanded NOT TO DO THAT and to ONLY GIVE IT TO GOD. Angels refuse it- Jesus accepted it. Give it only to God. It's really not that difficult. Unless you need it to be.

Let's look at it. I don't necessarily agree that bowing equates to what constitutes real worship. So if I were to bow, or if someone bowed to me, I can speak for myself that I wouldn't be bowing to someone because I thought they were God. I would bow if it was appropriate for the situation, in line with cultural norms, etc.

That being said, is literal bowing the way Jesus defined worship? Jesus said "the true worshippers" will worship the Father and "spirit and truth." So bowing isn't spirit and truth worship. The kind of bowing that Jesus and others received throughout the Bible would not fall in line with the way Jesus defined true worship. The only commandment on who to give "true worship in spirit and truth" to in the Bible is the Father (John 4:23,24) and there are no instances of this ever being applied to Jesus.

I agree with what you said that bowing can be a form of worship, there is evidence of that, but it isn't always definitively worship. You shouldn't do that if you feel it's wrong.

Commenting on Revelation 22, there are speaker changes without so much as an introduction as to who is speaking. In Rev 22:6, it says "Behold the angel said to me..." then v. 7 says "Behold I am coming soon..." so already this sounds like Jesus talking. Then John falls down to worship. After that, the speaker says "Do not do that... worship God." So this could just as easily be understood as the resurrected, ascended, glorified, exalted Jesus giving an instruction to not worship him. It's not decisive, but there is more than one way to look at this passage.

Baloney. The depths you guys will go to.. sigh. Food for thought-
1. "EVERY CREATURE in HEAVEN, EARTH ETC"- verse 13. -Rev 5
If "every creature in heaven" is speaking --- to Him who sites on the throne and to the Lamb..
Why is the Lamb not speaking there if He is a creature? It says "every" creature -- even those in heaven..

Here's some food for thought. Why is he called the Lamb if he is not a creature? Are lambs creatures?

2. Rev 22:3 --And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.
Not only do we have ONE throne with God and the Lamb on it- but here we also see His servants (duoloi) giving sacred service aka latreuo.
Proskuneo and latreuo are only to be given to God alone - according to JESUS--- Yet He Himself accepted it. ut oh.

Let's take a look at this too.

Throne is singular and there are two referents, God and the Lamb, then there are multiples servants serving one referent. Notice John didn't say "their servants" will server "them." The idea being conveyed here is that God and the Lamb aren't on the same throne. You can get an idea of this based on the context you quoted which immediately contradicts the idea of a shared throne.

There is throne distinction for God and the Lamb throughout Revelation. Revelation 7:10 says "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." The Lamb isn't the throne sitter in Revelation Rev. 7:10, nor the throne sitter in Rev. 5:6-7.

Revelation 22:3 is about shared rulership, not shared identity, hence when it says "His servants shall server Him" it is referring to God (singular person) and not "them."

Now I need to wrap this comment up because I have things to do, but I will come back to the rest of what you said later. Let me leave you with something to think about.

Revelation 22:3 says "His servants shall serve Him." Now, is God the Father ever called a servant even once in the Bible? No. But is the Lamb repeatedly called a servant of God? Yes (Isaiah 42:1, Matthew 12:8, Mark 10:45, Luke 22:27, Acts 3:13, 3:26, etc.)

The Lamb is also a servant who serves the throne sitter. Just something to think about. Be back when I have time.

 

[Wrangler]

Well, you first have to open your eyes to READ the angels and 24 Elders worshipping God and the LAMB

Unable to answer simple questions. So, you move the goal post.

Your questions are loaded, giving meaning to “accepting” something as evidenced by a negative; Since Person X did NOT object to proskuneo, that means they “accept“ it. This is indoctrinated rationalization, a far cry from Christ commanding his followers to worship him.

1. Did Jesus teach that he is YHWH incarnate?
2. Did Jesus instruct us to worship him?
3. Did Jesus instruct us to pray to him?
4. Did Angels instruct us to worship Jesus?
5. Did Angels instruct us to pray to Jesus?

 

[David in NJ]

Unable to answer simple questions. So, you move the goal post.

Questions have been Answered
TRUTH has been Revealed
JOY to the Beholders
Confusion upon unbelievers

 

[CrowCross]

Can it be argued that Jesus was prayed to in the Bible? It's possible to argue that, but does it ever teach, instruct, or command Christians to pray to anyone other than the Father? No.

Then don't pray to Jesus. It's that simple.

 

[Wrangler]

Questions have been Answered

In what post where the questions in post #304 answered?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Directly addressing someone isn't how prayer is defined in the Bible though. There are probably hundreds, if not thousands, of instances in which others are called upon or directly addressed in the Bible so that doesn't really give the idea that Stephen "prayed" to Jesus. Where does the Bible ever instruct anyone to "Pray to Jesus?"

Actually he showed you where you were wrong.

 

[rebuilder 454]

YESHUA Is His name

Matthew wrote in Greek, so he records the Greek form (Iēsous), but Joseph and Mary would not have spoken Greek to name their son. They were Jews living in Nazareth, so the name they actually used would have been the Hebrew/Aramaic form, Yeshua.

historians across a wide range of backgrounds, including Christian, Jewish, and secular scholars, overwhelmingly agree that Yeshua was the name by which Jesus was known during His earthly life.

I have researched This in the past and it is YESHUA most certainly

Splitting hairs.
A waste of thought.
"ה
שֻׁ עַ
ieusho
Joshua"

It is Joshua.
Same spelling as Moses' companion..

"Son of david"
Was also his name
"The Christ"
"Lord"
"Son of man"
"Lion of the tribe of Judah "
"Lamb of God"

God is not petty.
I do not have the slightest unction to learn certain hebrew/ Aramaic exact translation for any of JESUS'S names.

To get real technical, maybe, since "Jesus" (Joshua), was a common name, they would verify the person by "where from".
"Jesus of nazareth"
So technically, heaven is confused, by my lack of protocal?

Not at all.