The Bible puts us at a Crossroads

[VictoryinJesus]

Luke 18:8-13
[8] I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? [9] And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: [10] Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. [11] The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. [12] I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. [13] And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Faith found there “wherein” dwells righteousness. >2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
“Seek first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you.”

2 Corinthians 9:8-10 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency(God’s sufficiency) in all things, may abound to every good work: [9] (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever. [10] Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness

“I tell you that he will avenge them speedily.” GOD has given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.

Crossroad: is it God’s sufficiency... or sufficiency in yourself?

 

[marks]

But people would rather judge God and claim that His ways aren't just...or loving. Who are we to judge God and His motives? Yet people love to do that very thing.

If you just wouldn't mind to clarify . . . as you write this out to a Christian forum, a generally Christian readership, who exactly are these people you keep on about who like to judge God, and claim He is unrighteous? Unloving?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Because by all these words, the teaching is this, if you do sin, then your "walk in the Spirit" is hypocricy, "adding a new layer of sin". You just make yourself worse!

It only makes you a hypocrite if you claim to be walking in the Spirit while sinning. You are only a hypocrite if you claim to be doing something you are not. If you claim to be in the Spirit while sinning, You are claiming an impossibility. There is no sin in Christ, so if you claim to be in His Spirit while sinning, that would put sin in Him who has no sin in Him. He is light and there is no darkness in Him at all.

Humility is very necessary. There is no such thing as a sinful holiness. Best to walk humbly rather than claiming you are somewhere you aren't. God resists the proud and lifts the humble.

 

[marks]

It only makes you a hypocrite if you claim to be walking in the Spirit while sinning. You are only a hypocrite if you claim to be doing something you are not. If you claim to be in the Spirit while sinning, You are claiming an impossibility. There is no sin in Christ, so if you claim to be in His Spirit while sinning, that would put sin in Him who has no sin in Him. He is light and there is no darkness in Him at all.

Humility is very necessary. There is no such thing as a sinful holiness. Best to walk humbly rather than claiming you are somewhere you aren't. God resists the proud and lifts the humble.

Look again at what episkopos wrote.

Either we enter into Christ and freedom from sin entirely...or else we pretend to do so and add a new layer of sin in our lives.

Are you entirely free from sin? Or have you simply pretended, and added a new layer of sin, making yourself twice the child of hell?

Is episkopos entirely free from sin? I know the answer to that.

Is this really Biblical teaching? No.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Look again at what episkopos wrote.



Are you entirely free from sin? Or have you simply pretended, and added a new layer of sin, making yourself twice the child of hell?

Is episkopos entirely free from sin? I know the answer to that.

Is this really Biblical teaching? No.

You completely misunderstand. Who claimed they never sin? Who claimed to be currently in the Spirit?

It's those who claim to be in the Spirit when they are not who err.

 

[marks]

You completely misunderstand. Who claimed they never sin? Who claimed to be currently in the Spirit?

It's those who claim to be in the Spirit when they are not who err.

Either we enter into Christ and freedom from sin entirely...or else we pretend to do so and add a new layer of sin in our lives.

The question then is this. Are you either,

A, entirely free from sin, or

B, a pretender who has added a new layer of sin?

This is what is being taught here, either sinlessness or you are a hypocrit.

Either your being "in Christ" is completely sinless, or you are a pretender, not in Christ as all, just claiming something for yourself that isn't true. Which are you?

That's not the Gospel.

 

[amadeus]

It only makes you a hypocrite if you claim to be walking in the Spirit while sinning. You are only a hypocrite if you claim to be doing something you are not. If you claim to be in the Spirit while sinning, You are claiming an impossibility. There is no sin in Christ, so if you claim to be in His Spirit while sinning, that would put sin in Him who has no sin in Him. He is light and there is no darkness in Him at all.

Humility is very necessary. There is no such thing as a sinful holiness. Best to walk humbly rather than claiming you are somewhere you aren't. God resists the proud and lifts the humble.

What people, [believers known as Christians], do today is effectively what the children of Israel did in the wilderness. When they recognized they had sinned they took an offering to the priest. To do this they entered into that outer court and the priest went through the necessary steps of the offering for them. They, the people, could never go past even the first veil.

Now, today, because of the sacrifice of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, we can do what those people could not. We can prepare ourselves [as the sons of Aaron did on people's behalf in the wilderness] and actual go through that first veil ourselves [walking in the Spirit]. In spite of this present possibility many people play it as the Israelites played it, going continuously in and out of that outer court [1st heaven] and letting the priests lay hands on them and intercede for them. The Way into the veil is open, but so few really are willing to make the effort for themselves. 1st heaven once a week is OK for too many. To get past 1st heaven a person must walk in the Spirit. I don't believe there is any other way in...

Here we truly see the meaning of "much is given... much is required". We have so much more than those Israelites yet we are so often satisfied with imitating them instead to going to that next open level.

This way of the Israelites allows for repeated sinning and renewed sacrifices instead of ever really moving up higher. Most Christians are not aware they are doing this and often this is also true of the ministers who don't teach them anything different. If we keep moving in and out of 1st heaven [the outer court], which I believe means moving from [1st] heaven to hell (outside the tabernacle enclosure] and back repeatedly how are we ever going to finally come out of hell and stay out. People of wanting to make heaven their home but refuse to go in and stay in. We have the option.

When we are walking in the Spirit, are we not always in at least, 1st heaven? How does one move on into the 2nd and finally to 3rd heaven? Where was Jesus when he was walking on planet Earth in the flesh as a man?

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13

Even when Jesus was in hell, was he ever lower than 1st heaven? The above verse shows he had been in all three heavens. Have any of us? If not, why is that? How far and how long can a person walk in the Spirit?

 

[amadeus]

Is episkopos entirely free from sin? I know the answer to that.
No.

Consider the God given words spoken by a man who conspired to kill Jesus:

"And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all," John 11:49

He had missed the Way, but God still spoke through him as he was still the high priest and Jesus had not yet been crucified and resurrected. Besides of which God can speak through whoever He chooses, or...?

You know the answer about @Episkopos? Are you God able to ponder the depths of his heart? Are your "eyes to see" able to see the face of God clearly? When you can honestly say, yes, then perhaps you will be able to speak about another man like that. "Ye" or in this case, "Thou knowest nothing at all".

Because you disagree with a man and really do not understand where he is in God, don't presume you know he is not completely free from sin based on your own experience and beliefs.

Was Jesus prayer for naught?

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:" John 17:20-22

So many people say they believe in prayer, but they deny by their words and actions the value of Jesus' prayer to his Father. If we are unable to prepare ourselves to be sinless, do we also doubt or deny the power of God to bring us to such an impossible thing?

Go to another non-Christian, Gamaliel:

"And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men [this man], and let them [him]alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." Acts 5:38-39

 

[marks]

If we keep moving in and out of 1st heaven [the outer court], which I believe means moving from [1st] heaven to hell (outside the tabernacle enclosure] and back repeatedly how are we ever going to finally come out of hell and stay out. People of wanting to make heaven their home but refuse to go in and stay in.

Moving in and out from heaven into hell and back and forth?

Care to show me that in the Bible?

God sanctifies us. We don't do that. No flesh will glory in His presence.

 

[marks]

Because you disagree with a man and really do not understand where he is in God, don't presume you know he is not completely free from sin based on your own experience and beliefs

I've been asking the question, which he does not answer. And I don't blame him! I wouldn't want to be caught in those words!

But I've read the man's words, and I know the reality. So I do know the answer.

Some things simply speak for themselves.

 

[marks]

Because you disagree with a man and really do not understand where he is in God, don't presume you know he is not completely free from sin based on your own experience and beliefs.

Is that what he claims privately? Sinlessness? Seriously?

 

[amadeus]

Moving in and out from heaven into hell and back and forth?

Care to show me that in the Bible?

God sanctifies us. We don't do that. No flesh will glory in His presence.

That post was purposely NOT addressed to you because often, it seems to me, you cannot see some things unless they are black and white for you to see with the two orbs of flesh below your forehead. There is another better vision, right?

Nevertheless I will try to answer your question. Remember that I cannot give you "eyes to see".

Where do you see hell and what is it? Where do you see heaven(s) and what is it? You don't have to answer, but if I don't know what you already understand it will be even more difficult [if possible] to communicate.

 

[amadeus]

I've been asking the question, which he does not answer. And I don't blame him! I wouldn't want to be caught in those words!

But I've read the man's words, and I know the reality. So I do know the answer.

Some things simply speak for themselves.

I cannot answer for him. But... you say you know the reality and therefore know the answer. Just consider the possibility that you err. All of us see still through a glass darkly until our vision has really been moved from seeing "men as trees, walking" to seeing "every man clearly".

You also say, "Some things simply speak for themselves". No, either God tells us or really we do not know. If you ever get anything wrong at all, you don't know as much as you think you know.

I don't know all the answers either, especially when it comes to other people, but God has moved me closer and both vision and my hearing have improved even though in the flesh I still wear eyeglasses and hearing aids. What I see and what I hear applies mostly to me, but sometimes I am given a little bit of something else.

I don't claim to know @Episkopos well but I am positive that I know him better than you. That is saying little, but you should accept it and keep your hands off unless God has without any doubt given you a personal revelation. You have not claimed that so if you have nothing positive to offer and don't want to learn, as I said you should keep your hands off of him.
Wouldn't you say there is enough unwarranted attacking going on around this forum? Many will speak of what Jesus did, but who among us knows what Jesus knew?

 

[aspen]

I think it would be pretty easy to label our works as God’s works after a certain point in our relationship with God....a born again point in time, for example. However, we are still doing the work - no matter how inspired we are by God. All relationships require participation - even our relationship with God! Sanctification, transformation into a perfect lovers and citizen of Heaven, requires us to work with God. Sanctification is not a car wash, where you enter dirty and exit clean without effort.

Paul was writing to a formerly Jewish audience that believed they could perform their way to perfection. I agree with Paul! We do not get anywhere spinning our wheels, we need to work with God to win the race.

 

[amadeus]

Is that what he claims privately? Sinlessness? Seriously?

You have to ask him what he claims privately. But keeping on denying the possibility of any man today becoming sinless and wonder where that leaves you considering Jesus' words:

"And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:26-27

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col 1:27

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The question then is this. Are you either,

A, entirely free from sin, or

B, a pretender who has added a new layer of sin?

This is what is being taught here, either sinlessness or you are a hypocrit.

Either your being "in Christ" is completely sinless, or you are a pretender, not in Christ as all, just claiming something for yourself that isn't true. Which are you?

That's not the Gospel.

I don't know how to answer you. Is English your first language? You seem to not follow it as facilely as a nativeborn.

I will try one more time. In your A and your B above, why are you saying you must be one or the other...? If you are not A, do not pretend or claim to be.

 

[Episkopos]

I don't know how to answer you. Is English your first language? You seem to not follow it as facilely as a nativeborn.

I will try one more time. In your A and your B above, why are you saying you must be one or the other...? If you are not A, do not pretend or claim to be.

Amen. The option of being humble doesn't seem to be seen as valid as a consideration among the indoctrinated ones.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

In post #24, there is a quote from epi, but when you click on the almost invisible arrow, it takes you to a different post than the one where the quote came from.

I do not believe the man was saying what you say he was, that every man is either A or B. I think he was saying this is the two choices as in, this is the ridiculousness that we have come to. Because it is obvious we do not have to be choice B if we aren't choice A. Honesty and humility are a choice C that prevent someone who isn't A from becoming B.

So you have misunderstood what the man was saying. A man who is honest can see that you do not HAVE to be either A or B.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Amen. The option of being humble doesn't seem to be seen as valid as a consideration among the indoctrinated ones.

Yes. That is what the statement that you have to be either A.) Sinless, or B.) A pretender, does. It takes away the possibility of humility. (It doesn't really take it away, because some men will still be humble and walk in truth, even if told they don't have that choice!

 

[Episkopos]

In post #24, there is a quote from epi, but when you click on the almost invisible arrow, it takes you to a different post than the one where the quote came from.

I do not believe the man was saying what you say he was, that every man is either A or B. I think he was saying this is the two choices as in, this is the ridiculousness that we have come to. Because it is obvious we do not have to be choice B if we aren't choice A. Honesty and humility are a choice C that prevent someone who isn't A from becoming B.

So you have misunderstood what the man was saying. A man who is honest can see that you do not HAVE to be either A or B.

I gave three options not two. Humility gives us a way out.


But a dishonest person would make my posts to sound that way...either from a basic dishonesty or a lack of reading skills. A willful misrepresentation? How willful is that blindness?

The father of lies is ever busy to deceive and denigrate the truth. People obey him, either from their own vindictiveness or in ignorance...by being deceived by their own bents...but the result is the same.

Can you say ...hostility to the truth?