The Biblical Principle Of Nations: Identifying The Ten Kingdoms Of Ezekiel 38

[veteran]

Show me exactly where a "one world government" is prophesied in Scripture...Hal Lindsey and others have been speaking about this for decades, but I can't find it myself in Scripture...Because it simply doesn't exist...Many interpret Scripture with their preconceived beliefs in mind and bend Scripture to fit those preconceived thoughts and beliefs...That is why you and others continue to force a quasi-revised Roman Empire into your interpretations and come up so empty...The Soviet Union is no more thus it can not be Gog of the land of Magog, Roman Catholicism is not the harlot of the book of Revelation - nor can you prove that it is, the Antichrist will not come out of the EU (European Union)...

Way behind the times you are.


Dan 7:23
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
(KJV)

 

[revturmoil]

Rome never truly died.

It had two legs: One in Rome and another in Constantinople. You should check your history.

We are the embodiment of Rome today.

Daniel does not have 5 Kingdoms. You cannot find that taught in any Seminary; it's not in any major commentary or Study Bible.

There's not one verse of prophecy that implicates Rome in the end.

There are 6 kingdoms in Daniel 2.
1. Babylon
2. Medes
3. Persians
4. Greeks
5. The future kingdom of the beast.
6. The millennial kingdom.

Way behind the times you are.


Dan 7:23
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
(KJV)

LIKE I SAID. YOU NEED A HERMENEUTIC

It's more difficult to explain the differnet ways the word all is used in the OT than in the NT.

Look at how the word all....Strong's # 3606, and the word earth Strong's # 772 is used in the following verses.

Dan 4:1 Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth772; Peace be multiplied unto you.

Nebuchadnezzar was never king unto "all people, all nations, or all languages." he was never king to them that "dwell in all the earth."

Dan 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all 3606 the earth.

No kingdom has ever ruled all the earth!

Dan 4:20 The tree that thou sawest , which grew , and was strong , whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth772;

Even if a tree did go from earth to heaven it still would no be seen by everyone on earth!

Another example how the word earth or 'ara' is used.

Dan 4:22 It [is] thou, O king, that art grown and become strong : for thy greatness is grown , and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth772.

Nebuchadnezzar never had dominion "to the end of the earth."

There are HUNDREDS OF EXAMPLES LIKE THIS.

Bottom line........

YOU NEED A HERMENEUTIC!

　

　

　

 

[Richard Neal]

Way behind the times you are.


Dan 7:23
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
(KJV)

Looks to me like Kaoticprofit answered your question or statement for me - and did a pretty good job too...Now you've learned how easy it is to destroy a biblical argument, or personal interpretation which has been built on but one verse. The ancient rabbis had a rule where a interpretation had to be built upon at least three separate verses. You would do well to use this rule in the future...Moreover, it is obvious that you are merely regurgitating others teachings regarding a "one world government" which is so basic to the old "cold war era" paradigm where the Antichrist comes out of the EU (European Union). Scripture does not teach a "one world government" but rather a fourth empire "beast" (Dan 2, 7) which is The Kingdom of the Antichrist. The "buying and selling" which is controlled by the Antichrist is within his empire - not world wide. And the controlling of commerce - "buying and selling" - is not because of greed as many imply but rather it is used to force Christians into accepting the Antichrist and his religion, thus losing their salvation in the process. This fact destroys pre-tribulation rapturism as easily as your "one world government" was destroyed....

 

[John_8:32]

Rome never truly died.

It had two legs: One in Rome and another in Constantinople. You should check your history.

We are the embodiment of Rome today.

Daniel does not have 5 Kingdoms. You cannot find that taught in any Seminary; it's not in any major commentary or Study Bible.

There are seven heads to the last kingdom, seven resurrections of the roman Empire. The final one at the end time with 10 kings (rulers or nations?) and that is destroyed by Christ at His coming.

Dan 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Justinian revived the empire in 554AD.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Seven resurrections, the final one being at the time Christ returns...

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[Richard Neal]

There are seven heads to the last kingdom, seven resurrections of the roman Empire. The final one at the end time with 10 kings (rulers or nations?) and that is destroyed by Christ at His coming.

Dan 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Justinian revived the empire in 554AD.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Seven resurrections, the final one being at the time Christ returns...

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Scripture clearly tells us that the "seven heads" you speak about are - indeed - "seven kings," actually eight kings, not seven kingdoms whether Roman or otherwise. "They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. The beast who once was, and is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction" (Rev 17:10-11)...These eight kings were the five original kings of Daniel's fourth empire (Dan 2, 7); the "one that is" reunites the empire, then dies "on the mountains of Israel" (Eze 39); the seventh is the False Prophet and the eighth will be the Antichrist. Now we must find a historical empire that fits this very distinct and detailed prophecy without forcing our predetermined beliefs onto the prophecy.

Islam has known only five caliphs (kings); 1. Muhammad 2. Abu Bakr 3. Othman 4. Uthman and 5. Ali. With the assassination of Ali the Islamic Empire was divided into two parts - or sects, the Sunni and the Shiite. Moreover, the Islamic would community (ummi) currently awaits a man who can reunite the divided empire; that man will be considered the sixth caliph (king). Scripture calls that man "Gog" (Eze 38, 39), and informs us that he will reunite the Islamic Empire using their hatred for Israel as he leads his empire (ten nation coalition) in an attempt at annihilating the tiny Jewish state. He will fail, and die "on the mountains of Israel." Because he represents the Caliphate, his death will appear as if "the beast (the caliphate) (Rev 17:11) will have suffered a "fatal head wound" (Rev 13:3-4). But the Caliphate will be saved with the appearance of the seventh caliph (king). Islam calls this man al-Mahdi, I argue in my new book, Kingdom of the Antichrist, that he will be none-other than the False Prophet. Scripture is clear in that this man does not die, but rather he "remains a little while" (Rev 17:10). The reason for this is simple; al-Mahdi is prophesied, in the Islamic Hadiths, to pave the way for the man "Jesus, son of Mary" of Islamic teaching. In other words, al-Mahdi is prophesied to be a precursor to the man "Jesus, son of Mary" much like John the Baptist was a precursor to Jesus Christ. Thus, al-Mahdi will simply abdicate his power and authority to the eschatological figure known to Islam as the man "Jesus, son of Mary." This act will make the man "Jesus, son of Mary" the eighth and final Caliph (king) of the islamic Empire - and the Antichrist...Thus, the prophecy of (seven) eight kings is fulfilled precisely...

 

[veteran]

Looks to me like Kaoticprofit answered your question or statement for me - and did a pretty good job too...Now you've learned how easy it is to destroy a biblical argument, or personal interpretation which has been built on but one verse. The ancient rabbis had a rule where a interpretation had to be built upon at least three separate verses. You would do well to use this rule in the future...Moreover, it is obvious that you are merely regurgitating others teachings regarding a "one world government" which is so basic to the old "cold war era" paradigm where the Antichrist comes out of the EU (European Union). Scripture does not teach a "one world government" but rather a fourth empire "beast" (Dan 2, 7) which is The Kingdom of the Antichrist. The "buying and selling" which is controlled by the Antichrist is within his empire - not world wide. And the controlling of commerce - "buying and selling" - is not because of greed as many imply but rather it is used to force Christians into accepting the Antichrist and his religion, thus losing their salvation in the process. This fact destroys pre-tribulation rapturism as easily as your "one world government" was destroyed....

Neither you nor has he destroyed what the Daniel Scripture states about FIVE pieces of the beast image statue, and... the addition of the 'clay' material with the final beast kingdom.

Nor have you done any damage at all to the Daniel Scripture's declaration of ALL... the pieces of the beast image being TOGETHER 'when' Christ comes to smite it upon its 'feet' (2nd coming), and the WHOLE beast image statue comes tumbling down.

Nor has either one of you reversed the system of basic math with the 4th beast kingdom being the OLD Roman empire of PAST history, with the Scripture then pointing to yet a FINAL beast kingdom for the very end of this world, which of course is a FIFTH one, because 5 comes after... number 4 in basic numerals.

1 - beast kingdom of Babylon
2 - beast kingdom of Medo-Persia
3 - beast kingdom of Grecia
4 - beast kingdom of ancient Rome
= ALL BEAST KINGDOMS OF PAST HISTORY

5 - Final beast kingdom for our days - "one world government", "New World Order", etc. = Babylon, Persia, Grecia, Rome, with ALL other nations. The one that Christ is coming to strike upon its feet of ten toes.

 

[Richard Neal]

Neither you nor has he destroyed what the Daniel Scripture states about FIVE pieces of the beast image statue, and... the addition of the 'clay' material with the final beast kingdom.

Nor have you done any damage at all to the Daniel Scripture's declaration of ALL... the pieces of the beast image being TOGETHER 'when' Christ comes to smite it upon its 'feet' (2nd coming), and the WHOLE beast image statue comes tumbling down.

Nor has either one of you reversed the system of basic math with the 4th beast kingdom being the OLD Roman empire of PAST history, with the Scripture then pointing to yet a FINAL beast kingdom for the very end of this world, which of course is a FIFTH one, because 5 comes after... number 4 in basic numerals.

1 - beast kingdom of Babylon
2 - beast kingdom of Medo-Persia
3 - beast kingdom of Grecia
4 - beast kingdom of ancient Rome
= ALL BEAST KINGDOMS OF PAST HISTORY

5 - Final beast kingdom for our days - "one world government", "New World Order", etc. = Babylon, Persia, Grecia, Rome, with ALL other nations. The one that Christ is coming to strike upon its feet of ten toes.

In a sense you are right Veteran in that Daniel clearly implies that all four kingdoms, i.e. Babylon, Medo-Persia and the Grecian will conquer one another in succession and, together, along with other lands (see Eze 38) will make up the fourth empire or "beast" of Daniel 7 which will conquer the three previous empires...So, with that in mind, we must look at history to find the only empire (the fourth empire or "beast" of Daniel) who has ever conquered the lands which make up the ancient empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia and the Grecian Empire of Alexander...Obviously neither the Roman Empire or the Byzantine Empire EVER! conquered Babylon, Medo-Persia or much of the Grecian Empire of Alexander. Thus the Roman/Byzantine Empire, like the Mongol Empire or the Empire of the Huns, the Soviets, etc, etc MUST! be eliminated because they never fulfilled this portion of the prophecy...So, looking back through history, we find only one empire IN ALL OF HISTORY! who has actually conquered these lands - and this same empire still controls these same ancient lands today - the Empire of Islam...Thus, you are right in that the fourth empire of Daniel MUST conquer and control the three previous empire mentioned in Scripture, i.e., Babylon, Medo-Persia and Alexander's Grecian Empire....And, unlike your speculative interpretation of the eight kings, where you arbitrarily chose from hundreds of Roman emperors to find eight, Islam has only know five kings - Muhammad, Abu Bakr, Othman, Uthman and Ali (the five that were)...The sixth is (Gog), the seventh, who "must last a little time" is the False prophet, also known as al-Mahdi, and the eighth is the Antichrist - the same man "Jesus, son of Mary" who Islam anticipates will return from Paradise "on the wings of two angels" and will lead the Islamic Empire in a world-wide jihad in an attempt at cleansing the world of all other religions...

 

[veteran]

In a sense you are right Veteran in that Daniel clearly implies that all four kingdoms, i.e. Babylon, Medo-Persia and the Grecian will conquer one another in succession and, together, along with other lands (see Eze 38) will make up the fourth empire or "beast" of Daniel 7 which will conquer the three previous empires...So, with that in mind, we must look at history to find the only empire (the fourth empire or "beast" of Daniel) who has ever conquered the lands which make up the ancient empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia and the Grecian Empire of Alexander...Obviously neither the Roman Empire or the Byzantine Empire EVER! conquered Babylon, Medo-Persia or much of the Grecian Empire of Alexander. Thus the Roman/Byzantine Empire, like the Mongol Empire or the Empire of the Huns, the Soviets, etc, etc MUST! be eliminated because they never fulfilled this portion of the prophecy...So, looking back through history, we find only one empire IN ALL OF HISTORY! who has actually conquered these lands - and this same empire still controls these same ancient lands today - the Empire of Islam...Thus, you are right in that the fourth empire of Daniel MUST conquer and control the three previous empire mentioned in Scripture, i.e., Babylon, Medo-Persia and Alexander's Grecian Empire....And, unlike your speculative interpretation of the eight kings, where you arbitrarily chose from hundreds of Roman emperors to find eight, Islam has only know five kings - Muhammad, Abu Bakr, Othman, Uthman and Ali (the five that were)...The sixth is (Gog), the seventh, who "must last a little time" is the False prophet, also known as al-Mahdi, and the eighth is the Antichrist - the same man "Jesus, son of Mary" who Islam anticipates will return from Paradise "on the wings of two angels" and will lead the Islamic Empire in a world-wide jihad in an attempt at cleansing the world of all other religions...

Maybe you ought to look at what areas the pagan Roman empire engulfed, like in 117 A.D per this map...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Roman_Empire_Trajan_117AD.png


It's unmistakeable that the Roman empire conquered more lands than Alexander's kingdom, and more than all the previous beast kingdoms of Daniel. That's why the Roman empire IS the 4th beast of Daniel. And the beast kingdom pattern is a pattern of enlargement of areas of the earth per that. So the final 5th beast kingdom for the end? Whole earth, all nations.

 

[revturmoil]

It's unmistakeable that the Roman empire conquered more lands than Alexander's kingdom, and more than all the previous beast kingdoms of Daniel. That's why the Roman empire IS the 4th beast of Daniel. And the beast kingdom pattern is a pattern of enlargement of areas of the earth per that. So the final 5th beast kingdom for the end? Whole earth, all nations.

The reason why the Roman Enpire conquered more land, or appears to have conquered more land" is because it surrounded the Med. It was more of a European Empire. The Persian and Grecian Empires were large but were Mid-Eastern empires. All four Empires depicted in the statue were Mid-Eastern Empires. Babylon, Medes, Persian, Greeks. The stone that smote the great statue destroyed all four of them which today are all Arab and Persian and dominated by Islam.

The word inferior in Daniel 2:39 is Strong's #0772 which means earth, world, ground. The only thing said about the arms of silver or 2nd kingdom is that it would be inferior to Babylon. Since a land inferiority is implied, that rules out Persia since it was much larger than Babylon even three times the size. The Medo-Persian empire can't be the inferior kingdom.
The only kingdom that was "land inferior" was the Median Empire. It was also shortlived as 4 years later Cyrus became king and Darius a vassal.
I believe this because that's what God's Word declares.
Daniel, Isaiah's, and Jeremiah's prophecies ascribe the conquest and destruction of Babylon to the Medes.

Daniel 5:31
"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."

Isaiah 13:17
"Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, ie. (Babylon)

Dan 11:1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, [even] I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.

Dan 6:1 ¶ It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;
My conclusion?

The only kingdom that can possibly be the inferior kingdom to Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon was the kingdom of the Mede's which was smaller and shortlived.

Another contradiction that you refuse to accept is the fact that the word mixed used to describe the toes mingled with iron and clay is the Chaldean word "arab" which either denotes an Arab or the land of Arabia. NOT ROME! The NLT uses the word 'intermarried' to describe them. 'Arab' is a variation of the word 'crossed' and the they are the most intermarried people in the world. It's these people and that area..."the Arab/Islamic world," where Babylon the Great will Emerge from. Not Europe, America, or Rome.
Daniel 8-10-and 11 all implicate the evil one with 'Grecia.' The antichrist being Assyrian is also in accord with this since ancient Assyria is about the center of the Arab world.

This is why I believe what I believe. Every time you show me how you arrive at your conclusions all I see is contradictions and wonder why you don't.

 

[veteran]

One does not have to rely on such single word interpretations of Daniel to discover the differences with those past historical beast kingdoms, and what areas and peoples they covered upon the earth. The old Roman empire became the largest beast kingdom upon the earth to date. And since it conquered the areas of the 3rd beast kingdom of Daniel, that makes the Roman empire the 4th beast of Daniel.

 

[teleiosis]

In the end times, the iron is "mixed" with clay. How apt is God to point the way when this word also is closely associated with Arabs. And again, how apt God is in describing the current situation which has been continually forming since the end of World War II. I am continually amazed at how succinct and prescient God can be in His Word.

The iron Kingdom does not change, but it becomes brittle as it is not homogeneous. There are only four Kingdoms. We're living in the last part of that. Some can't see it, and being old dogs, maybe never will. For those of us with open eyes and minds, we watch and contemplate.

Because this world is a tinderbox with wars constantly waging, economics in a mess with whole countries in an uproar, and disease rampant, and we might become fearful; we return to faith to buttress us up. This world is not all there is, and our true treasure doesn't lie here.

 

[veteran]

One can point all day to the Arab peoples in regard to these things, but Ezekiel 38 reveals a movement for the end much greater than just Islamic extremism. Rev.13 likewise does the same. All religions are going to be under one world controller for the end, the coming Antichrist, the "son of perdition" Paul described in 2 Thess.2. that is to come exalting himself over all that is called God, or that is worshipped. That means Islam cannot claim him as their representative only, nor can any one religion on earth make that claim. The Antichrist is coming to play God.

 

[Richard Neal]

Maybe you ought to look at what areas the pagan Roman empire engulfed, like in 117 A.D per this map...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Roman_Empire_Trajan_117AD.png


It's unmistakeable that the Roman empire conquered more lands than Alexander's kingdom, and more than all the previous beast kingdoms of Daniel. That's why the Roman empire IS the 4th beast of Daniel. And the beast kingdom pattern is a pattern of enlargement of areas of the earth per that. So the final 5th beast kingdom for the end? Whole earth, all nations.

The ancient map that you allude to clearly shows that at its hight the Roman Empire never conquered Babylon - the first of the four empires of Daniel's vision, nor, as history clearly shows, did they ever even attempt to conquer it. Secondly, the Roman Empire never conquered the Persian Empire either, although they harbored designs to do so and even made a few feeble attempts to do so. If, then, the Roman/Byzantine Empire never conquered the first and second empires (beasts) of Daniel's vision, as your map clearly shows, then how can you argue that a quasi-revised Roman Empire will be the fourth empire of Daniel's vision?...

 

[teleiosis]

All religions are going to be under one world controller for the end,

While the anti-Christ will rule the world, and everyone will submit to him - at the final battle of the one 'seven' he is still arrayed against the South and the East.

The South is rapidly shaping up to not be Al-Qaida (the camp) under Obama-been-killing-Osama, but the Muslim Brotherhood.
The East, with its 200 million troops is China, who is playing a long hand hoping the North and the South kill each other and has been helping the Arabs lately.

So right up to the end, the anti-Christ is only able to influence the North, where the bulk of old Christianity lies. The only continent where there may be some relative safety would be South America with its latin Catholicism, but as it is so strongly influenced by its northern neighbor, the USA; I don't think it will be safe there in the end.

The anti-Christ only acheives his stated goal to conquer the world when the armies of the South and East are defeated. Then his victory is Pyhrric; Jesus and His Army (the 144,000 who never leave His side at least) descend from Heaven and capture the anti-Christ and false prophet alive. Thus, having cut off the "head" of the fourth terrible beast, the control it exerted over the other three beast components as Rev 13:2 shows, are allowed to live a little while like Dan 7:12 says. This little while would be the 30 and 45 day periods of Dan 12:11-12 which go on after the 1260 days which complete the second half of the one 'seven.'

...to gain the whole world and lose your soul. - That is the lesson of the anti-Christ. He doesn't get to enjoy his "heaven-on-earth."

And Jesus doesn't need billions of Saints to win the battle. 144,000 will do. In Rev 19:1, the Great Multitude can be heard cheering on their champion, the Lion of Judah with His army about to go out to do battle. The Bride of Christ is safe at home at the time when war is waged.

 

[veteran]

The ancient map that you allude to clearly shows that at its hight the Roman Empire never conquered Babylon - the first of the four empires of Daniel's vision, nor, as history clearly shows, did they ever even attempt to conquer it. Secondly, the Roman Empire never conquered the Persian Empire either, although they harbored designs to do so and even made a few feeble attempts to do so. If, then, the Roman/Byzantine Empire never conquered the first and second empires (beasts) of Daniel's vision, as your map clearly shows, then how can you argue that a quasi-revised Roman Empire will be the fourth empire of Daniel's vision?...

Gnats again I see.

I NEVER said there would be a 'revised Roman empire' like the one of old for the end. That's where you're not listening, but making assumptions instead. I don't speak or write in riddles.

Jerusalem has always been the center of focus with all the previous beast kingdoms of Daniel. Because Daniel was shown how the final beast kingdom of ten toes of part iron and part clay will be standing ALONG... with ALL the previous beast statue parts in the end when Christ comes to smite it upon its feet, then what does that show for the end?

While the anti-Christ will rule the world, and everyone will submit to him - at the final battle of the one 'seven' he is still arrayed against the South and the East.

The South is rapidly shaping up to not be Al-Qaida (the camp) under Obama-been-killing-Osama, but the Muslim Brotherhood.
The East, with its 200 million troops is China, who is playing a long hand hoping the North and the South kill each other and has been helping the Arabs lately.

So right up to the end, the anti-Christ is only able to influence the North, where the bulk of old Christianity lies. The only continent where there may be some relative safety would be South America with its latin Catholicism, but as it is so strongly influenced by its northern neighbor, the USA; I don't think it will be safe there in the end.

The anti-Christ only acheives his stated goal to conquer the world when the armies of the South and East are defeated. Then his victory is Pyhrric; Jesus and His Army (the 144,000 who never leave His side at least) descend from Heaven and capture the anti-Christ and false prophet alive. Thus, having cut off the "head" of the fourth terrible beast, the control it exerted over the other three beast components as Rev 13:2 shows, are allowed to live a little while like Dan 7:12 says. This little while would be the 30 and 45 day periods of Dan 12:11-12 which go on after the 1260 days which complete the second half of the one 'seven.'


...to gain the whole world and lose your soul. - That is the lesson of the anti-Christ. He doesn't get to enjoy his "heaven-on-earth."

And Jesus doesn't need billions of Saints to win the battle. 144,000 will do. In Rev 19:1, the Great Multitude can be heard cheering on their champion, the Lion of Judah with His army about to go out to do battle. The Bride of Christ is safe at home at the time when war is waged.

Christ's coming to gather His Church is AFTER the tribulation period (the latter 1260 of Daniel's "one week"). And that's per Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, and per Paul in 2 Thess.2.

The northern army that's to come upon Jerusalem on the last day of this world is given in Ezekiel 38. It includes Communist Russia and her Islamic allies.

 

[teleiosis]

The sun/moon/star event happens immediately after the shortened Great Tribulation - which means it doesn't last all 1260 days from when it began with the two laws that go into effect with the erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ in the "Holy Place" in the Temple (in front of the Veil).

The Harvest comes after the two laws which we're told not to obey even to the point of death. Then comes God's Wrath which wraps up at Armageddon.

The sun/moon/star event is also part of the sixth Seal and precedes the Great Multitude's arrival in the Temple of God the Father (the barn of Heaven) and no less than an Elder says that they came out of the Great Tribulation - which is abruptly cut short by the sudden, and unknown arrival of the Day of the Lord - which even Jesus says He doesn't know.

The Northern Kingdom is at war with the Southern Kingdom. I can safely predict Russia will not invade Israel with the Syrians or any other Islamic state. At that time, Russia will be part of another entity which has not yet arrived - the fourth terrible beast of Daniel 7 / Rev 13:2.

 

[Richard Neal]

Gnats again I see.

I NEVER said there would be a 'revised Roman empire' like the one of old for the end. That's where you're not listening, but making assumptions instead. I don't speak or write in riddles.

Jerusalem has always been the center of focus with all the previous beast kingdoms of Daniel. Because Daniel was shown how the final beast kingdom of ten toes of part iron and part clay will be standing ALONG... with ALL the previous beast statue parts in the end when Christ comes to smite it upon its feet, then what does that show for the end?



Christ's coming to gather His Church is AFTER the tribulation period (the latter 1260 of Daniel's "one week"). And that's per Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, and per Paul in 2 Thess.2.

The northern army that's to come upon Jerusalem on the last day of this world is given in Ezekiel 38. It includes Communist Russia and her Islamic allies.

Here is a direct copy of your previous statement: "The old Roman empire became the largest beast kingdom upon the earth to date. And since it conquered the areas of the 3rd beast kingdom of Daniel, that makes the Roman empire the 4th beast of Daniel." It is assumed, then, because the 4th "beast" of Daniel 7 is the beast/empire controlling the world when Christ returns - when you claim that "the Roman Empire is the 4th beast of Daniel," and the Roman Empire was conquered by the Visigoths in 410 A.D., then one has to assume that you mean some quasi-revised Roman Empire?...If my assumption is wrong, maybe you would do better if you were more complete with your answers?...Secondly, Alexander made his capital the city of Babylon before he died, and his empire stretched all the way into India and all of Persia...The Roman Empire never conquered Babylon - Alexander's capital, or India or any part of the vast Persian Empire. So, again, you are wrong when you state "Rome conquered the 3rd beast kingdom of Daniel." For Rome only conquered part of the third beast of Daniel 7...History doesn't lie Veteran, so we must deal with it, not revise it to fit our preconceived notions...

 

[veteran]

The sun/moon/star event happens immediately after the shortened Great Tribulation - which means it doesn't last all 1260 days from when it began with the two laws that go into effect with the erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ in the "Holy Place" in the Temple (in front of the Veil).

You're listening to those Pre-Wrath doctrines of 'men' again.

They didn't understand what Christ meant when He said He shortened the time for His elect's sake, and you don't either. When Christ said that in His Olivet discourse, He was speaking of the latter half of Daniel's final "one week", a period of 1260 days. That did NOT... CHANGE ANY of the ORDER for endtime events He gave. But that's what the Pre-Wrath tradition of men seeks to do, i.e., actually change... the 'order' of the events of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church on "the day of the Lord".

The "day of the Lord" is when He gathers His Church and pours out His wrath upon the wicked at the SAME time to end Daniel's 70th week. The 75 days of Dan.12 happen AFTER Christ has ended the tribulation of 1260 days.

The Harvest comes after the two laws which we're told not to obey even to the point of death. Then comes God's Wrath which wraps up at Armageddon.

Wrong. Per Rev.16:15-21, Christ comes WITH the Armageddon events. It's simple, because Armageddon is the battle against Satan's host army that Christ fights AT His coming per Rev.19, Ezek.38-39, Zeph.3:8, Zech.14:1-3. The last 7th Vial is poured out into the AIR, not upon the earth (figure that one out).

The sun/moon/star event is also part of the sixth Seal and precedes the Great Multitude's arrival in the Temple of God the Father (the barn of Heaven) and no less than an Elder says that they came out of the Great Tribulation - which is abruptly cut short by the sudden, and unknown arrival of the Day of the Lord - which even Jesus says He doesn't know.

The sun/moon/star event of Rev.6 on the 6th Seal is a "day of the Lord" event signaling Christ's coming to GATHER His Church and pour out His wrath upon the wicked. All one need do is go back and study the Old Testament prophets about that "day of the LORD" and what happens. Both Apostles Paul and Peter agree with those OT prophets about its events too. But what you're trying to push does not.

The Northern Kingdom is at war with the Southern Kingdom. I can safely predict Russia will not invade Israel with the Syrians or any other Islamic state. At that time, Russia will be part of another entity which has not yet arrived - the fourth terrible beast of Daniel 7 / Rev 13:2.

Ezekiel 38 gives the nation alignment for the very end in prep for the battle of Armageddon. It INCLUDES Russia, as shown by the areas of Meshech and Tubal in the northern quarters. The only nation it mentions not aligned yet is Turkey (ancient Togarmah).

Here is a direct copy of your previous statement: "The old Roman empire became the largest beast kingdom upon the earth to date. And since it conquered the areas of the 3rd beast kingdom of Daniel, that makes the Roman empire the 4th beast of Daniel."

Yes, that's right. The pagan Roman empire DID conquer areas of the 3rd beast kingdom. What Alexander had conquered broke off into separate empires after his death. The Roman Trajan's eastern conquests reached to Armenia and Babylon against the Parthians, but later were lost after his death.

The amount of territory the Romans conquered that involved territorries of the previous beast kingdoms is enough to be certain that the Roman empire was Daniel's 4th beast of "legs of iron" (but not feet of ten toes).

 

[Richard Neal]

You're listening to those Pre-Wrath doctrines of 'men' again.

They didn't understand what Christ meant when He said He shortened the time for His elect's sake, and you don't either. When Christ said that in His Olivet discourse, He was speaking of the latter half of Daniel's final "one week", a period of 1260 days. That did NOT... CHANGE ANY of the ORDER for endtime events He gave. But that's what the Pre-Wrath tradition of men seeks to do, i.e., actually change... the 'order' of the events of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church on "the day of the Lord".

The "day of the Lord" is when He gathers His Church and pours out His wrath upon the wicked at the SAME time to end Daniel's 70th week. The 75 days of Dan.12 happen AFTER Christ has ended the tribulation of 1260 days.



Wrong. Per Rev.16:15-21, Christ comes WITH the Armageddon events. It's simple, because Armageddon is the battle against Satan's host army that Christ fights AT His coming per Rev.19, Ezek.38-39, Zeph.3:8, Zech.14:1-3. The last 7th Vial is poured out into the AIR, not upon the earth (figure that one out).



The sun/moon/star event of Rev.6 on the 6th Seal is a "day of the Lord" event signaling Christ's coming to GATHER His Church and pour out His wrath upon the wicked. All one need do is go back and study the Old Testament prophets about that "day of the LORD" and what happens. Both Apostles Paul and Peter agree with those OT prophets about its events too. But what you're trying to push does not.



Ezekiel 38 gives the nation alignment for the very end in prep for the battle of Armageddon. It INCLUDES Russia, as shown by the areas of Meshech and Tubal in the northern quarters. The only nation it mentions not aligned yet is Turkey (ancient Togarmah).



Yes, that's right. The pagan Roman empire DID conquer areas of the 3rd beast kingdom. What Alexander had conquered broke off into separate empires after his death. The Roman Trajan's eastern conquests reached to Armenia and Babylon against the Parthians, but later were lost after his death.

The amount of territory the Romans conquered that involved territorries of the previous beast kingdoms is enough to be certain that the Roman empire was Daniel's 4th beast of "legs of iron" (but not feet of ten toes).

You are right Veteran when you argue that The Great Tribulation Period is "cut short for the elect's sake" per our Lord's promise (Matt 24:22). The "cutting short" event is the rapture event and it can be found in the sixth seal of Revelation (6:12). And you are also right when you say men have changed the hour of the rapture event from a "pre-wrath" rapture to a "pre-tribulation" rapture event.

Nevertheless, you are wrong when you force Russia into the War of Gog and Magog (Eze 38, 39). "Meshech and Tubal" were ancient city states that Ezekiel knew very well when he penned his prophecies. And they were - and are - located in the Anatolia peninsula in modern Turkey. Check any ancient map for confirmation of this. So Turkey, which you rightly anticipate will join Gog's confederation, will, in fact, be "the land of Gog" and will lead the confederation.

You are also right in that the Roman Empire ONLY conquered parts of Alexander's Empire - which was the 3rd beat/empire of Daniel's vision (Dan 7). Because the Roman Empire NEVER conquered all of Alexander's empire, or any of the Babylonian Empire or any of the Persian Empire (the first and second empires of Daniel's vision) then the Roman Empire is precluded from being the 4th beast/empire of Daniel's vison.

Scripture never names the 4th beast/empire of Daniel's vision like it does the first three. Nevertheless, Scripture does provide us with twenty-six unique characteristics of the 4th beast/empire as identifiers to use to identify the exact empire it has in mind. One of these identifying characteristics is the 4th beast/empire MUST conquer and absorb all the lands of the previous three beasts/empires. And only one empire in all of recorded history has accomplished that feat - the Islamic Empire. Consequently, only the Islamic Empire can be considered as a possibility of being Daniel's 4th beast/empire...Now we must look at the other twenty-five unique characteristics Scripture gives us regarding Daniel's 4th beast/empire to see if the Islamic Empire fulfills each and everyone of these as well. If it does - and it does - then we have, with confidence, identified Daniel's 4th beast/empire...

 

[veteran]

You are right Veteran when you argue that The Great Tribulation Period is "cut short for the elect's sake" per our Lord's promise (Matt 24:22). The "cutting short" event is the rapture event and it can be found in the sixth seal of Revelation (6:12). And you are also right when you say men have changed the hour of the rapture event from a "pre-wrath" rapture to a "pre-tribulation" rapture event.

The shortened time is about the latter 1260 days period being shortened, NOT some special event like a Pre-trib rapture added that leaves the order of the endtime events of His coming and our gathering He gave us.

Nevertheless, you are wrong when you force Russia into the War of Gog and Magog (Eze 38, 39). "Meshech and Tubal" were ancient city states that Ezekiel knew very well when he penned his prophecies. And they were - and are - located in the Anatolia peninsula in modern Turkey. Check any ancient map for confirmation of this. So Turkey, which you rightly anticipate will join Gog's confederation, will, in fact, be "the land of Gog" and will lead the confederation.

Here we go again. Look at the alliance between Syria, Iran, extemists in Lebanon, Iraq, etc., with the Communist states of Russian and Red China today. It's the COMMUNIST states that are SUPPORTING those Islamic states, NOT the other way around.

Your beloved Russia is part of that extremist alliance against Israel that Ezekiel 38 is pointing to.

You are also right in that the Roman Empire ONLY conquered parts of Alexander's Empire - which was the 3rd beat/empire of Daniel's vision (Dan 7). Because the Roman Empire NEVER conquered all of Alexander's empire, or any of the Babylonian Empire or any of the Persian Empire (the first and second empires of Daniel's vision) then the Roman Empire is precluded from being the 4th beast/empire of Daniel's vison.

See the history about Roman Trajan again. He did... conquer areas of the ancient Babylonian empire. You're not going to be able to disprove the Roman empire as the next beast kingdom that covered the majority of the then civilized world.

Scripture never names the 4th beast/empire of Daniel's vision like it does the first three. Nevertheless, Scripture does provide us with twenty-six unique characteristics of the 4th beast/empire as identifiers to use to identify the exact empire it has in mind. One of these identifying characteristics is the 4th beast/empire MUST conquer and absorb all the lands of the previous three beasts/empires. And only one empire in all of recorded history has accomplished that feat - the Islamic Empire. Consequently, only the Islamic Empire can be considered as a possibility of being Daniel's 4th beast/empire...Now we must look at the other twenty-five unique characteristics Scripture gives us regarding Daniel's 4th beast/empire to see if the Islamic Empire fulfills each and everyone of these as well. If it does - and it does - then we have, with confidence, identified Daniel's 4th beast/empire...

The Book of Daniel DOES make distinction between 5 beast kingdoms. That's why the beast statue image from Neb's dream that God gave Daniel to interpret has FIVE pieces to it, and not just FOUR.

The part of the "legs of iron" represented the old Roman empire, because it's the feet of ten toes of iron mixed with clay that is shown manifesting when Christ comes to strike it upon its feet and establish His de facto Eternal Kingdom and reign upon the earth. That's a specific point many theologians have missed from the Book of Daniel (though not all Bible scholars of history missed it).