The Biblical Principle Of Nations: Identifying The Ten Kingdoms Of Ezekiel 38

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Richard Neal

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Tantamount to arriving at the correct interpretation of end time prophecies - and there is only one correct interpretation of prophetic Scripture, is a proper identification of the many prophetic characters and events which make up the eschatological paradigm presented in the pages of Scripture. And this truth can not be over emphasized.

For example, the book of Daniel speaks of four "beasts" or empires which will rule from his day (530 B.C.) until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Dan 7:1-28). Daniel specifically names the first three of these "beasts" or empires (Dan 2:37 - Babylon; 8:20 - the Medes and Persians; 8:21 - Alexander's Grecian Empire) but, even though he speaks about it in great detail, as do other prophets, Daniel never specifically names the fourth "beast" or empire. Nor does any other prophet of either the Old or New Testaments. Naturally this has led to a great amount of speculation over the centuries as to the true identity of Daniel's fourth beast, or empire.

This becomes obvious in the various teachings over the centuries concerning the identity of Daniel's fourth empire. Because of the dominance and brutality of the Roman Empire during the first two centuries of the Christian era, for example, many of the early Church Father's believed that Rome was the fourth empire Daniel had in mind. Many scholars of the Eastern, or Orthodox Church of the Byzantine era (600 A.D. to 1400 A.D.) believed, because of the many Islamic invasions and atrocities, that Islam was Daniel's dreaded fourth empire. After the Protestant Reformation many in the Protestant Churches throughout Europe believed that the Catholic Church, because of its brutalities during the schismatic war, and because it controlled many lands and kings throughout Europe, was the infamous fourth empire of the book of Daniel. Other examples could be referred to, but the point is that none of these "speculations" were ever proven for various reasons. Thus none were ever accepted by all the Church. As a result, many variations of these end time paradigms are still being taught, and confusion reigns throughout the Church as a whole.

Even though Daniel never names the fourth "beast" or empire of Nebuchadnezzar's dream vision, he does, nevertheless, give several unique specifics and/or characteristics of this empire. The Apostle John, in the book of Revelation, also gives us various unique specifics and/or characteristics about the same fourth empire of the book of Daniel. In my new book, Kingdom of the Antichrist, I examine twenty-six of these specifics and/or characteristics in great detail. And this is the key to correctly identifying Daniel's fourth "beast" or empire. Because it is not specifically named anywhere in Scripture, to correctly identify Daniel's fourth "beast" or empire one must use the only identifiers Scripture provides, and that is the twenty-six unique specifics and/or characteristics.

In a previous article (Identifying The Eight Kings Of Revelation 17:10-11) concerning bible prophecy, we addressed one of these unique specifics and/or characteristics when we identified the eight kings which the Apostle John informs us will rule over Daniel's fourth empire from its inception to the Second Coning of Jesus Christ (Revelation 17:10-11). In this article we would like to address a second unique specific and/or characteristic bible prophecy gives us concerning Daniel's fourth empire, and that is properly identifying the ten kings which will make up the end time empire of the Antichrist (Eze 38:1-13).

For reasons which are not very apparent, virtually every prophetic theologian from the 19th century forward has attempted to identify the ten kings of Ezekiel 38 by race. This has, obviously, led to wild speculations regarding the descendants of Gog and Magog (Gen 10:2) who originally inhabited Asia Minor and their speculative migrations, or the ancient Scynthians and/or Cimmerians who also once inhabited Asia Minor (the Land of Gog and Magog, Eze 38) and their various speculative migrations, etc.

The Biblical Principle of Nations suggests that ethnicity played no part in the division of nation in Genesis 10. Ethnicity, in fact, is not even a Biblical concept, but rather, ethnicity, or "race" comes directly from the godless beliefs of Darwinists. Scripture knows of only one "race" - the human race as we are all descendants of the same biological parents, Adam and Eve. Genesis 10, and indeed throughout all of Scripture, God is only concerned with tribes, and later, after those tribes had grown into nations, nations and eventually empires. Nevertheless, Scripture did not intend to suggest that these same tribes or nations would inhabit these same geographical areas for all time. In other words, even though the geographical area first inhabited by a peculiar tribe mentioned in Genesis 10 became known and identified by the name of that peculiar tribe, Scripture does not assume that that identical tribe would remain in that same geographical area throughout time. As any historian knows, migrations of entire nations and tribes, whether forced or not, dominate the ancient world to the point that modern historians view migrations of nations and tribal groups as the major defining force of the ancient world; more defining and important than either wars or governmental policies. Nor is Scripture concerned with the ethnicity or "race" of the particular tribe which originally inhabited the land. If it did, this would forces us, the last generation, to seek out the various migrations of various tribes and nations throughout history which, in many cases, is impossible due to lost records. The end result would be that no one of our generation would be able to correctly interpret many eschatological characters and events because many of their ancient migrations are no longer known for various reasons. Thus, many of the end time prophecies written specifically for our benefit, because we are the last generation which will experience the fulfillment of these prophecies, would be worthless because no one could properly interpret them.

Thus, the principle that geographical nations, not races, in various geographical areas was set in Genesis 10 can be seen with the foundation of Babylon; which Scripture informs us was founded by "Nimrod (Gen 10:8-10). Nimrod, as Genesis 10:6-9 makes clear, was a descendant of Ham, the brother of Japheth, and thus of the "Hamite" tribal linage Nevertheless, the ancient "Babylonian Chronicles," which were composed by indigenous Babylonians around 2250 B.C., informs us that Babylon was, by the third millennium B.C., under the control of Sharkalisharris, the son of the great Sargon I (d. 2300 B.C.), who was of Indo-European stock. By the mid-second millennium B.C. the Amorite invasion of Babylon was complete, and the founding of the First Dynasty of Babylon under the Amorite king Suma-Abum (d. 1894 B.C.), a Semite, was established. In 1595 B.C. the Babylonian kingdom was captured by the Hittites, another Indo-European people, but subsequently occupied for unknown reasons by the Kassite people of Arabian (Semitic) stock. By the first millennium B.C. Babylon was under the control of the Assyrian king Shalmenesar II, who was part Semitic and part Indo-European. The Chaldeans, another Indo-European people, would take control of Babylon around 626 B.C. The famous Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar was of Chaldean, or Indo-European, stock. The Chaldean kingdom of Babylon was subsequently captured by the Persian king Cyrus, also of Indo-European stock; on October 29th, 539 B.C. King Cyrus would be followed by the Medo-Persian king Darius II, also known as Artaxerxes II (521-486 B.C.), who was a Mede of European stock only. On October 1st, 331 B.C., Alexander the Great and his Grecian army would conquer Babylon after Alexander's victory over the Medes at Gaugamela. Alexander would subsequently have himself crowned "King of Babylon" in 324 B.C. Alexander's death on June 13th, 323 B.C., however, would allow one of his generals, Syleucus, a member of the famed "Diadachi," to claim the title of King of Babylon in 305 B.C.
Thus, even though Babylon has been conquered, and subsequently occupied, by Indo-Europeans, Amorites, Arabs, Kassites, Chaldeans, Persians, Medes and Greeks, "Babylon" is always "Babylon" in Scripture regardless of the ethnicity of the ruling class, or even the ethnicity of the majority of its population at the time. "Babylon" is "Babylon" because of its geographical location, not because of the peculiar ethnic make-up of its ruling class or the majority of its population at any given time.

Egypt is another example we can site from Scripture. "Egypt" is always "Egypt" in Scripture because of its geographical location, not because of its peculiar ethnic make-up at any given time. Thus, even though the Egypt of Abraham's day (2100-1900 B.C.) had an indigenous Egyptian population made up primarily of descendants of Ham (Hamites), "Egypt" is still "Egypt" over three-hundred years later when Joseph is sold into an "Egypt" completely dominated by the Hyksos (The so-called "Shepherd Kings") of Semitic, or possibly Indo-European, ethnicity. Furthermore, "Egypt" is still "Egypt" in Scripture over a thousand years later when, around 609 B.C., "Neco Pharaoh of Egypt" (2nd Chron 35:20), an Ethiopian Pharaoh of the 26th Dynasty, led his Egyptian forces into Israel.

This same biblical principle, then, applies as well to "Meshech and Tubal." Even though both "Meshech and Tubal" were, undoubtedly, founded by Indo-Europeans, possibly even the two sons of Japheth, to assume that a prophetic reference to ''Meshech and Tubal," a "Meshech and Tubal" over 2700 years into the future should literally refer to the original Indo-European (or Russians as American Evangelicals would contend) inhabitants of "Meshech and Tubal" is to misunderstand the true meaning of Scripture. As far as Scripture is concerned, "Meshech and Tubal" will always be located in the same geographical location, even though the ethnicity of their inhabitants will change from time to time for various reasons. Thus, when prophetic Scripture speaks of an "end-time" "Meshech and Tubal," it must be speaking about the people who inhabit the same geographical area of ancient "Meshech and Tubal" of Ezekiel’s day. Therefore, because the eschatological character known as "Gog" is said to come from the area around ancient "Meshech and Tubal" (Eze 38:1), we must, then, look at the modern nation that inhabit the same geographical area today (Turkey) if we are to be able to correctly identify the national origin of "Gog." "...the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal" (v.2).

Moreover, a minority of ancient manuscripts read "...the prince of Rosh" (v.2). American Evangelicals, then, apply the same standard to "Rosh" that they apply to "Meshech and Tubal" and, as a consequence, they interpret "Rosh" as an ancient corruption of "Russia." Thus they claim to be able to follow the ancient migrations of various tribes out of Asia Minor and into modern Russia, thus making the Russians the descendants of "Meshech and Tubal." As a consequence, they teach the nation modern nation of Russia will invade modern Israel (Eze 38, 39). In reality, "Rosh," like "chief prince of," many archeologists now believe probably refers to a military commander, thus, Gog should be viewed as a possible military commander of the area around ancient "Meshech and Tubal" (modern Turkey) and not ancient corruption of a word and language which, at the time, did not even exist.

Incredibly enough, Scripture actually names the ten ancient kingdoms, or nations, which will comprise the coalition force that will follow Gog in his invasion of modern Israel. And these ten "kingdoms," or nations, and specifically their modern identities, will be of the utmost importance for a clear understanding of "end-time" eschatological events: "...Meshech and Tubal (Eze 38:2)...Persia, Cush, and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north (vs.5-6)...Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all her villages...(v.13).

Again, Ezekiel uses the ancient names for certain geographical areas when he names the "end-time" eschatological nations that will accompany Gog on his invasion of Israel. Thus, we must apply the "Biblical Principle of Nations" spoken of above in any attempt to identify the modern nations that will accompany Gog. If we were, then, to superimpose a modern map of the Middle-East and Mesopotamia over an ancient map of the same geographical areas, doing so should provide us with the exact geographical areas these ancient kingdoms once occupied, while allowing us, at the same time, to identify all the modern nations which currently inhabit these same geographical areas.

Ancient "Meshech and Tubal," as previously discussed, were located in southeastern Anatolia, or Asia Minor. Today this area is inhabited by the peoples of southeastern Turkey. Ancient "Persia," naturally, is undoubtedly modern Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and Kuwait (the ancient boundaries of the Persian Empire). Ancient "Cush" inhabited the area which is today modern Ethiopia and the Sudan. Ancient "Put" in Northern Africa is the same geographical area as modern Libya. Ancient "Gomer" encompasses an area around the Black Sea which would include the modern nations of Kazakhastan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, and Tajikistan. Ancient "Beth Togarmah" inhabited an area which today includes the modern nations of Armenia and Georgia. Ancient "Sheba and Dedan" were located in the vast Arabian deserts which today is home to the kingdoms of Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen. The ancient "merchants of Tarshish" would include the modern countries of North Africa known as Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia.

It is nothing short of remarkable, in our opinion, that, while writing over twenty-five hundred years ago, the inspired priest-prophet Ezekiel could see how all these modern nations of diverse tribes, cultures, languages and histories would, in the end, share one common trait of the utmost importance---their belief in the Gnostic religion of Islam. Making them, of course, parts of the world-wide "ummi" or community of Islam which, when reunited under Gog (Eze 38), will become the fourth empire spoken of by the prophet Daniel (Dan 7).

Even more remarkable is the fact that Ezekiel was not the first to write about this "end-time" confederation of nations which would seek to "destroy Israel as a nation." Over four-hundred years earlier Asap, a leader of one of king David's Levitical choirs, wrote a Psalm in which he spoke about a ten nation confederacy of nations that would seek to "destroy "the nation of Israel": "...O God, be not still. See how Your enemies are astir, how Your foes rear their heads. With cunning they conspire against Your people [Israel]; they plot against those You cherish. 'Come,' they say, 'let us destroy them [Israel] as a nation, let the name of Israel be remembered no more. With one mind they plot together; they form an alliance [a coalition] against You; the tents of Edom [parts of areas that encompass modern Palestine, Jordan and the northern Arabian desert] and the Ishmaelites [Arab Bedouin], Moab [an area encompassing the West Bank of Israel, Jordan and the northern Arabian desert] and the Hagrites [an Aramean confederacy mentioned in ancient Assyrian inscriptions, thus, an area that would encompass parts of modern Syria, Iraq, and the Black Sea region], Gebal [an important Phoenician city, thus modern Lebanon], Ammon [an area which would encompass the West Bank of Israel, which is inhabited by the Palestinians, and modern Jordan] and Amalek [a tribal people living in the ancient Sinai peninsula, thus, modern Saudi Arabia] Philistia [the Gaza strip in modern Israel]. Even Assyria [a geographical area which would encompass parts of modern Syria, Turkey, Iraq, Babylon and areas around the Black Sea] has joined them [the confederacy] to lend strength to the descendants of Lot [the sons born to Lot's daughters were the ancestors of the Moabites and Ammonites (Deut 2:9,19), and were known to inhabit an area east of the Jordan River encompassing parts of modern Jordan, Syria and the northern Arabian desert]" (Psalm 83:1-8).

The "ten kingdoms" of the seer Asaph resembles, then, the "ten kings" of the priest-prophet Ezekiel in three very important ways; first, the ancient geographical areas inhabited by both sets of "ten kingdoms" are basically the same. Consequently, just as the ten eschatological kingdoms of Ezekiel will share one very important trait, they all also belong to the Gnostic empire of Islam, so the same can be said of the ten eschatological kingdoms of the seer Aseph. And thirdly, just as the ten eschatological kingdoms of Ezekiel's vision will devise an "evil scheme" that will subsequently lead them to invade Israel in search for "plunder," so too will the ten eschatological kingdoms of the seer Aseph seek to invade Israel in an attempt to "destroy" the nation.

Returning to Ezekiel's remarkable prophecy. "...Get ready; be prepared, you [Gog] and the hordes gathered about you [the ten nation coalition force], and take [military] command of them. After many days [a biblical reference which often refers to the end-time] you [Gog and his coalition force] will be called to arms [war]. In future years [another biblical reference which often refers to the end-time] you will invade a land [Israel] that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel [an event prophesied in Ezekiel 4, and literally fulfilled in 1948 A.D.] which had long been desolate [for the most part, the Promised Land laid "desolate" for all the years Israel was dispersed among the nations]." They [Israel] had been [notice the past tense] brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety. You [Gog] and all your troops and the many nations with you [the ten nation coalition] will go up, advancing like a storm; will be like a cloud covering the land [of Israel] (Eze 38:7-9).

"...This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On that day [a phrase referring to the day of Gog's invasion of Israel] thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil scheme. You will say, 'I will invade a land of unwalled villages ["unwalled villages" were unheard of in the days of Ezekiel. Walled villages become obsolete only in the Middle Ages with the discovery of gunpowder and the subsequent invention of the cannon. Thus, Ezekiel must be viewing a nation of "unwalled villages" sometime in the very distant future from his day]. I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins [modern Israel is, without a doubt, settled upon many ancient ruins] and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods [modern Israel is definitely "rich" in "goods" when compared to her Islamic neighbors], living at the center of the land..." (38:10-13).

"...You [Gog] will come from your place in the far north [American Evangelicals see this as a reference to Russia while, at the same time, ignoring the fact that ancient "Meshech and Tubal" were, indeed, located to the extreme north of ancient Israel in what would be modern Turkey], you and many nations with you [we have already identified these "nations," or geographical areas]...' (38:15).

"...You will advance against My people Israel like a cloud that covers the land [denoting an immense army]. In days to come [another biblical reference to the last days], O Gog, I will [allow] bring you against My land, so that the nations will know Me when I show Myself holy through you [or your destruction] before their eyes..." (38:16).

"...This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Are you not the one I spoke of in former days by My servants the prophets of Israel [probably a general reference to earlier prophecies of divine judgment of the nations arrayed against Israel in the "latter days"]. At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them..." (38:17-18).

"...I [God] will execute judgment upon him [Gog and his coalition force] with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him [Gog] and on the many nations with him [the ten nation coalition force]..." (38:21-22).

"Son of man, prophesy against Gog and say: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, 0 Gog, chief! Prince [or military leader] of Meshech and Tubal. I will turn you around [does this mean Gog and his forces will be leaving an earlier engagement with Israel?] and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel..." (39:1-2).

"...On the mountains of Israel you [Gog] will fall [die], you and all your troops and nations with you [Gog and his coalition force will be defeated my God Almighty]. I will give you as food to all kinds of carrion birds and to the wild animals..." (39:4).

"...I [God] will send fire on Magog [the Hebrew prefix "ma" means "land of." Thus, "Ma-Gog" should be read as "Land of Gog." Consequently, God is saying here that He will destroy the "land of Gog," the land where ancient "Meshech and Tubal" were located] and on those who live in safety on the coastlands [the "coastlands" of modern Turkey and Lebanon which bordered the ancient geographical area around "Meshech and Tubal"], and they will know that I am the Lord..." (39:6).

"...I will make known My holy name known among My people Israel [this sentence clearly implies that modern Israel will not know the true name of their God]. I will no longer let My holy name be profaned [is this a reference to the way the Rabbinic Jews have, over the centuries, attempted to profane the name of Jesus Christ in their Talmud and other Rabbinic writings?], and the nations will know that I the Lord am the Holy One in Israel. It is coming [the invasion of Israel by Gog]! It will surely take place, declares the Sovereign Lord. This is the day I have spoken about. Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up [the "War of Gog and Magog" will be so catastrophic that Israel will be forced to burn Gog’s weapons for fuel]...For seven years [Daniel's 'seven,' or the "Seventieth Week" of Daniel] they will use them as fuel..." (39:7-9).

"...On that day [of the invasion of Israel] I [God] will give Gog a burial place in Israel, in the valley of those who travel east toward the Sea [the Dead Sea]. It will block the way of travelers, because Gog and all his hordes will be buried there. So it will be called the Valley of Hammon [Hordes of] Gog. For seven months the House of Israel will be burying them [the hordes of Gog] in order to cleans the land [corpses are considered unclean in Levitical law (see Lev 5:2; 21:1,11; 22:4; Num 5:2; 6:6-12; 19:16; 31:19)]..." (39:11-12).

"...From that day [the day the Lord destroys Gog and his coalition force] forward the House of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God [this implies, again, that Israel currently does not know the true identity of their God]..." (39:22).
"...They [Israel] will forget their shame [caused by rejecting their God over two-thousand years ago] and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward Me [Jesus, Christ through Rabbinic teachings] when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid..." (39:26).

"...Then they will know that I am the Lord their God [implying again that modern Israel does not know the true identity of their God], for though I sent them into exile among the nations [the Diaspora beginning in 135 A.D.], I will gather them to their own land [literally accomplished in 1948 A.D.], not leaving any behind..." (39:28).

The Apostle John speaks of this same ten nation coalition which will encompass the fourth empire of Daniels. For example, the aged Apostle writes: "And I saw a beast [Daniel's fourth beast] coming out of the sea [of humanity]. He had ten horns [the same ten kingdoms of Ezekiel's prophecy] and seven heads [the Caliphate of Islam]..." (Revelation 13:1); "There [in the desert] I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast [representing the heretical religion of the fourth empire of Daniel] that was covered with blasphemous names [heresy?] and had seven heads [the Caliphate] and ten horns [the ten nations/kingdoms of Ezekiel 38]" (Revelation 17:3). "The ten horns you [John] saw are ten kingdoms [the same ten kingdoms of Ezekiel 38] who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. They [the ten kingdoms] have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast [Daniel's fourth empire]" (Revelation 17:12) See also Revelation 17:15-18).

So we see that the key to properly interpreting end time prophecy is a correct identification of the various characters and events which make up the one eschatological paradigm presented in the pages of Scripture. Consequently, using our Biblical Principle of Nations we were able to properly identify the ten nations that will encompass the end time fourth empire of the book of Daniel. Once these ten kings were correctly identified, we were then able to apply our findings to other end time prophecies of the book of Revelation and come to a correct interpretation of these prophecies from the book of Revelation as well.
 

veteran

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Moreover, a minority of ancient manuscripts read "...the prince of Rosh" (v.2). American Evangelicals, then, apply the same standard to "Rosh" that they apply to "Meshech and Tubal" and, as a consequence, they interpret "Rosh" as an ancient corruption of "Russia." Thus they claim to be able to follow the ancient migrations of various tribes out of Asia Minor and into modern Russia, thus making the Russians the descendants of "Meshech and Tubal." As a consequence, they teach the nation modern nation of Russia will invade modern Israel (Eze 38, 39). In reality, "Rosh," like "chief prince of," many archeologists now believe probably refers to a military commander, thus, Gog should be viewed as a possible military commander of the area around ancient "Meshech and Tubal" (modern Turkey) and not ancient corruption of a word and language which, at the time, did not even exist.


As a consequence, it's RUSSIA that has been the main supporter of weapons to the radical Islamic nations that desire to destroy Israel. Guess you forget to include that little tid-bit of information. Not only has Russia been the main backers of Islamic radicals against Israel, and the western nations, but they have sent those Islamic nations (like Syria, Iran, etc.) Russian advisors and instructors to help them too, and is helping Iran build their nuclear program.

The ancient historians associated Tubal with Caucasian Iberia, the people then around the areas of modern Georgia, since that's where the Caucaus Mountains are, near the Black Sea. And that area is pointing NORTH of old Persia which is the areas of Russia and some its previous Soviet satellite countries.


Nice try with trying to disassociate Russia allied with radical Islam for the endtime prophecies though, but it's NOT going to work.

Allied with Russia today:
Iran
Yemen
Sudan (put for Ethiopia in Ezek.38)
Libya
Syria
Georgia
Turkey (soon to be)
 

Richard Neal

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As a consequence, it's RUSSIA that has been the main supporter of weapons to the radical Islamic nations that desire to destroy Israel. Guess you forget to include that little tid-bit of information. Not only has Russia been the main backers of Islamic radicals against Israel, and the western nations, but they have sent those Islamic nations (like Syria, Iran, etc.) Russian advisors and instructors to help them too, and is helping Iran build their nuclear program.

The ancient historians associated Tubal with Caucasian Iberia, the people then around the areas of modern Georgia, since that's where the Caucaus Mountains are, near the Black Sea. And that area is pointing NORTH of old Persia which is the areas of Russia and some its previous Soviet satellite countries.


Nice try with trying to disassociate Russia allied with radical Islam for the endtime prophecies though, but it's NOT going to work.

Allied with Russia today:
Iran
Yemen
Sudan (put for Ethiopia in Ezek.38)
Libya
Syria
Georgia
Turkey (soon to be)

No one is claiming that Russia has not - or is not currently supplying many Islamic countries with arms and advisors. But Scripture isn't concerned with that geo-political fact...Scripture is only concerned with the fourth "beast" or empire of the book of Daniel. The same "beast" or empire which is Johns' first "beast" in the book of Revelation (13:1). The fact that this empire [beast] is clearly defined as an empire in Scripture infers, of course, that there will be many different nations doing business with it. And indeed there currently are many different nations doing business with the Islamic Empire, i.e., America, China, North Korea, even Israel, etc, etc, etc. Yet Scripture is not concerned with such minor inferences, but only with identifying the end time "beast" [empire]; not with the many minor nations doing business with the beast...

You are wrong when you say "the ancient people associated "Tubal with Caucasian Iberia, the people then around the areas of modern Georgia, since that's where the Caucus Mountains are, near the Black Sea. And that area is pointing NORTH of old Persia which is the areas of Russia and some its previous Soviet satellite countries." I've never seen "Tubal" associated with "Caucasian Iberia." But even if I am wrong on that point, Ezekiel, and his contemporaries knew very well where the city/state "Tubal" was located at the time he penned his prophecy - in the Anatolian Peninsula [modern Turkey]...Moreover, the ancient "Caucasian Iberia" you speak about is, in part anyway, the modern state of Georgia. What does that have to do with Russia? Russia no longer controls Georgia; Georgia is no longer a part of the former Soviet Union. So I fail to see the connection?

Richard Neal - author Kingdom of the Antichrist
 

epostle1

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I can't be sure about this, but I always thought that the pagan Roman empire consisted of 7 Herodian dynasties withing 10 kingdoms of the known world. If that is true, it kinda blows the profits of doom and gloom out of the water, cuz they never mention it.
 

Richard Neal

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I can't be sure about this, but I always thought that the pagan Roman empire consisted of 7 Herodian dynasties withing 10 kingdoms of the known world. If that is true, it kinda blows the profits of doom and gloom out of the water, cuz they never mention it.

I'm sorry, but I'm a little confused by your statement/question?...By "Herodian dynasties" I assume you can only have in mind the Herodian dynasty of Herod the Great of Judea?...If so, neither he nor any of his descendants ever ruled the Roman Empire, or any kingdom within the Roman Empire besides the small kingdom of Judea. After the death of Herod the Great (5 A.D.) his Judean dynasty, if one, in fact, can call it that, was broken up into various regions within Judea at the command of various Caesars and ruled by his sons as Tetrarchs (governors). Consequently, I've never heard of "7 Hderodian dynasties" nor have I ever heard of these "Herodian dynasties" ruling "10 kingdoms of the known world."

Richard Neal - author Kingdom of the Antichrist
 

veteran

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No one is claiming that Russia has not - or is not currently supplying many Islamic countries with arms and advisors. But Scripture isn't concerned with that geo-political fact...

Wrong, Scripture most definitely is... concerned with the areas of ancient Tubal, which is pointing to the areas of the north of Persia, like Russia and its old satellites around the Black Sea. The fact that Russia is allied with radical Islam only further seals the prophetic link in Ezekiel 38, a link you PURPOSEFULLY chose to downplay!


Scripture is only concerned with the fourth "beast" or empire of the book of Daniel. The same "beast" or empire which is Johns' first "beast" in the book of Revelation (13:1). The fact that this empire [beast] is clearly defined as an empire in Scripture infers, of course, that there will be many different nations doing business with it. And indeed there currently are many different nations doing business with the Islamic Empire, i.e., America, China, North Korea, even Israel, etc, etc, etc. Yet Scripture is not concerned with such minor inferences, but only with identifying the end time "beast" [empire]; not with the many minor nations doing business with the beast...

I'm not sure I should even offer this to you, since your post has caused me to doubt your sincerity already, but here goes. A study of the Daniel 2 & 3 chapters reveals a 5th BEAST for the end. The 4th beast kingdom was represented by the old pagan Roman empire. Per the Daniel Scripture, ALL... of the 5 pieces of the beast image statue are 'together' for the final beast kingdom of Revelation 13:1-2. That means you're going to have to EXPAND your understanding about the final beast kingdom for the end, as it is to cover all... the areas of the previous 4 beast kingdoms, with the Roman empire representing its power over the Christian West. It's called a "one world government".


You are wrong when you say "the ancient people associated "Tubal with Caucasian Iberia, the people then around the areas of modern Georgia, since that's where the Caucus Mountains are, near the Black Sea. And that area is pointing NORTH of old Persia which is the areas of Russia and some its previous Soviet satellite countries." I've never seen "Tubal" associated with "Caucasian Iberia."

I am not wrong about that association; neither was the Jewish historian Josephus, nor was Eustathuis of Antioch, nor was Bishop Theodoret, nor was Ivane Javakhishvili, et al, who pointed to the ancient area of Georgia around the Black Sea as the origin of Tubal in ancient history.



But even if I am wrong on that point, Ezekiel, and his contemporaries knew very well where the city/state "Tubal" was located at the time he penned his prophecy - in the Anatolian Peninsula [modern Turkey]...Moreover, the ancient "Caucasian Iberia" you speak about is, in part anyway, the modern state of Georgia. What does that have to do with Russia? Russia no longer controls Georgia; Georgia is no longer a part of the former Soviet Union. So I fail to see the connection?

Russia no longer has influence in Georgia? Guess you missed Russia rolling in armoured tanks into Georgia in 2008. A portion of Georgia petitioning to join NATO is what caused it.




Today's Russia is STILL... a Communist state run by Communists, allied with other Communist nations like Red China, North Korea, Vietnam, etc. That is WHY Russia threatened war with the U.S. and its allies if a NATO defensive missle system was placed in Poland, Romania, and Turkey. Red China has threatened and predicted eventual war with the U.S. for many years now.

http://www.examiner....the-russan-bear

The Cold War did not end; it's still going on today. Communism was not defeated, it's still going on today.
 

Richard Neal

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Wrong, Scripture most definitely is... concerned with the areas of ancient Tubal, which is pointing to the areas of the north of Persia, like Russia and its old satellites around the Black Sea. The fact that Russia is allied with radical Islam only further seals the prophetic link in Ezekiel 38, a link you PURPOSEFULLY chose to downplay!

Scripture is indeed concerned with ancient Tubal - but ancient Tubal was never located "north of ancient Persia." That would put it somewhere around the location of the modern sates of Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, etc. All, I would agree, where located within the ancient Persian Empire. But modern Georgia, which you claim is the location of ancient Tubal, is far to the west of the ancient Persian Empire and was never, in fact, a part of the ancient Persian Empire...The Tubal of Ezekiel's day, as with Meshech, was located in the Anatolia Peninsula, which is modern Turkey. Why you refuse to acknowledge this fact is very bothersome.




I'm not sure I should even offer this to you, since your post has caused me to doubt your sincerity already, but here goes. A study of the Daniel 2 & 3 chapters reveals a 5th BEAST for the end. The 4th beast kingdom was represented by the old pagan Roman empire. Per the Daniel Scripture, ALL... of the 5 pieces of the beast image statue are 'together' for the final beast kingdom of Revelation 13:1-2. That means you're going to have to EXPAND your understanding about the final beast kingdom for the end, as it is to cover all... the areas of the previous 4 beast kingdoms, with the Roman empire representing its power over the Christian West. It's called a "one world government".

You claim the fourth "beast" of the book of Daniel is "the Roman Empire," yet you fail to even attempt to give us as much as one reason why Rome is the fourth beast...Scripture never identifies the fourth beast by name - how do you know its identity?




I am not wrong about that association; neither was the Jewish historian Josephus, nor was Eustathuis of Antioch, nor was Bishop Theodoret, nor was Ivane Javakhishvili, et al, who pointed to the ancient area of Georgia around the Black Sea as the origin of Tubal in ancient history.

Hippolytus of Rome (3rd cent) believed Tubal's descendants were the "Hettali" (in later copies the Thessalian's of the Anatolia Peninsula)...One can quote many different ancient sources to bolster his claim. But the point still stands: Ezekiel and his contemporaries were very well acquainted the small city-states of Meshech and Tubal of his day and time. Both city-states were located in the ancient Anatolia Peninsula - modern Turkey. These were the geographical locations he was speaking about - not "north of the Persian Empire" or in modern Georgia...





Russia no longer has influence in Georgia? Guess you missed Russia rolling in armoured tanks into Georgia in 2008. A portion of Georgia petitioning to join NATO is what caused it.

I didn't say Russia didn't have any "influence" in Georgia - I said Georgia is no longer a part of the former Soviet Union.




Today's Russia is STILL... a Communist state run by Communists, allied with other Communist nations like Red China, North Korea, Vietnam, etc. That is WHY Russia threatened war with the U.S. and its allies if a NATO defensive missle system was placed in Poland, Romania, and Turkey. Red China has threatened and predicted eventual war with the U.S. for many years now.

http://www.examiner....the-russan-bear

The Cold War did not end; it's still going on today. Communism was not defeated, it's still going on today.

Wrong, Scripture most definitely is... concerned with the areas of ancient Tubal, which is pointing to the areas of the north of Persia, like Russia and its old satellites around the Black Sea. The fact that Russia is allied with radical Islam only further seals the prophetic link in Ezekiel 38, a link you PURPOSEFULLY chose to downplay!




I'm not sure I should even offer this to you, since your post has caused me to doubt your sincerity already, but here goes. A study of the Daniel 2 & 3 chapters reveals a 5th BEAST for the end. The 4th beast kingdom was represented by the old pagan Roman empire. Per the Daniel Scripture, ALL... of the 5 pieces of the beast image statue are 'together' for the final beast kingdom of Revelation 13:1-2. That means you're going to have to EXPAND your understanding about the final beast kingdom for the end, as it is to cover all... the areas of the previous 4 beast kingdoms, with the Roman empire representing its power over the Christian West. It's called a "one world government".




I am not wrong about that association; neither was the Jewish historian Josephus, nor was Eustathuis of Antioch, nor was Bishop Theodoret, nor was Ivane Javakhishvili, et al, who pointed to the ancient area of Georgia around the Black Sea as the origin of Tubal in ancient history.





Russia no longer has influence in Georgia? Guess you missed Russia rolling in armoured tanks into Georgia in 2008. A portion of Georgia petitioning to join NATO is what caused it.




Today's Russia is STILL... a Communist state run by Communists, allied with other Communist nations like Red China, North Korea, Vietnam, etc. That is WHY Russia threatened war with the U.S. and its allies if a NATO defensive missle system was placed in Poland, Romania, and Turkey. Red China has threatened and predicted eventual war with the U.S. for many years now.

http://www.examiner....the-russan-bear

The Cold War did not end; it's still going on today. Communism was not defeated, it's still going on today.

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]

Wrong, Scripture most definitely is... concerned with the areas of ancient Tubal, which is pointing to the areas of the north of Persia, like Russia and its old satellites around the Black Sea. The fact that Russia is allied with radical Islam only further seals the prophetic link in Ezekiel 38, a link you PURPOSEFULLY chose to downplay!

Scripture is indeed concerned with ancient Tubal - but ancient Tubal was never located "north of ancient Persia." That would put it somewhere around the location of the modern sates of Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, etc. All, I would agree, where located within the ancient Persian Empire. But modern Georgia, which you claim is the location of ancient Tubal, is far to the west of the ancient Persian Empire and was never, in fact, a part of the ancient Persian Empire...The Tubal of Ezekiel's day, as with Meshech, was located in the Anatolia Peninsula, which is modern Turkey. Why you refuse to acknowledge this fact is very bothersome.




I'm not sure I should even offer this to you, since your post has caused me to doubt your sincerity already, but here goes. A study of the Daniel 2 & 3 chapters reveals a 5th BEAST for the end. The 4th beast kingdom was represented by the old pagan Roman empire. Per the Daniel Scripture, ALL... of the 5 pieces of the beast image statue are 'together' for the final beast kingdom of Revelation 13:1-2. That means you're going to have to EXPAND your understanding about the final beast kingdom for the end, as it is to cover all... the areas of the previous 4 beast kingdoms, with the Roman empire representing its power over the Christian West. It's called a "one world government".

You claim the fourth "beast" of the book of Daniel is "the Roman Empire," yet you fail to even attempt to give us as much as one reason why Rome is the fourth beast...Scripture never identifies the fourth beast by name - how do you know its identity?




I am not wrong about that association; neither was the Jewish historian Josephus, nor was Eustathuis of Antioch, nor was Bishop Theodoret, nor was Ivane Javakhishvili, et al, who pointed to the ancient area of Georgia around the Black Sea as the origin of Tubal in ancient history.

Hippolytus of Rome (3rd cent) believed Tubal's descendants were the "Hettali" (in later copies the Thessalian's of the Anatolia Peninsula)...One can quote many different ancient sources to bolster his claim. But the point still stands: Ezekiel and his contemporaries were very well acquainted the small city-states of Meshech and Tubal of his day and time. Both city-states were located in the ancient Anatolia Peninsula - modern Turkey. These were the geographical locations he was speaking about - not "north of the Persian Empire" or in modern Georgia...





Russia no longer has influence in Georgia? Guess you missed Russia rolling in armoured tanks into Georgia in 2008. A portion of Georgia petitioning to join NATO is what caused it.

I didn't say Russia didn't have any "influence" in Georgia - I said Georgia is no longer a part of the former Soviet Union.



www.KingdomOfTheAntichrist.comhttp://www.KingdomOfTheAntichrist.com[/background]
 

Rex

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I can't be sure about this, but I always thought that the pagan Roman empire consisted of 7 Herodian dynasties withing 10 kingdoms of the known world. If that is true, it kinda blows the profits of doom and gloom out of the water, cuz they never mention it.

10 Kingdoms, Some see these in Dan chapter 7:24

Visigoths - Spain
Anglo Saxton - England
Franks - France
Alemani - Germany
Burgundians - Switzerland
Lombards - Italy
Suevi - Portugal
Heruli - uprooted
Ostrogoths - uprooted
Vandals - uprooted
 

veteran

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[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Scripture is indeed concerned with ancient Tubal - but ancient Tubal was never located "north of ancient Persia." That would put it somewhere around the location of the modern sates of Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, etc. All, I would agree, where located within the ancient Persian Empire. But modern Georgia, which you claim is the location of ancient Tubal, is far to the west of the ancient Persian Empire and was never, in fact, a part of the ancient Persian Empire...The Tubal of Ezekiel's day, as with Meshech, was located in the Anatolia Peninsula, which is modern Turkey. Why you refuse to acknowledge this fact is very bothersome.
[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]You're pushing historical revisionism with denying what the ancient histories declare about Tubal's location as the area of modern Georgia.[/background]



[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]
You claim the fourth "beast" of the book of Daniel is "the Roman Empire," yet you fail to even attempt to give us as much as one reason why Rome is the fourth beast...Scripture never identifies the fourth beast by name - how do you know its identity?

I gave the reason. You either chose to deny it, or... you cannot understand the Dan.2 & 3 descriptions as written there about the separate parts of the statue image.


I am not wrong about that association; neither was the Jewish historian Josephus, nor was Eustathuis of Antioch, nor was Bishop Theodoret, nor was Ivane Javakhishvili, et al, who pointed to the ancient area of Georgia around the Black Sea as the origin of Tubal in ancient history.
Hippolytus of Rome (3rd cent) believed Tubal's descendants were the "Hettali" (in later copies the Thessalian's of the Anatolia Peninsula)...One can quote many different ancient sources to bolster his claim. But the point still stands: Ezekiel and his contemporaries were very well acquainted the small city-states of Meshech and Tubal of his day and time. Both city-states were located in the ancient Anatolia Peninsula - modern Turkey. These were the geographical locations he was speaking about - not "north of the Persian Empire" or in modern Georgia...


The geographic area of Georgia is where those ancient historians pointed to. The real matter is that 'anyone' today can say they were wrong in trying to REVISE what they wrote, which is what you're trying to do.



Russia no longer has influence in Georgia? Guess you missed Russia rolling in armoured tanks into Georgia in 2008. A portion of Georgia petitioning to join NATO is what caused it.
I didn't say Russia didn't have any "influence" in Georgia - I said Georgia is no longer a part of the former Soviet Union.[/background]

Here's is what you said:

What does that have to do with Russia? Russia no longer controls Georgia; Georgia is no longer a part of the former Soviet Union. So I fail to see the connection?



Face it; you've been caught in the lie of Historical Revisionism, and it's obvious to me, if not others, just why. You're trying to EXCLUDE the part that peoples north of Persia, like Georgia, Russia, etc., will play in the coming Gog and Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39.
 

Richard Neal

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[/font][/b][/background][/color]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]You're pushing historical revisionism with denying what the ancient histories declare about Tubal's location as the area of modern Georgia.[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Again, I could care less what any ancient historian had to say about the location he believed ancient Tubal may have inhabited...The bottom line is that, in the 6th century A.D. Ezekiel - and his many contemporaries - knew very well the location of the Tubal he was writing about; and it was located in the Anatolia peninsula - not "north of the Persian Empire," or west of the Persian Empire (which is where modern Georgia is actually located). [/background]



[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]

I gave the reason. You either chose to deny it, or... you cannot understand the Dan.2 & 3 descriptions as written there about the separate parts of the statue image.

I assume you are speaking about the two legs of Nebuchadnezzar's dream-vision?...If so, I understand very well that they represent the four empire - and specifically how it will be a divided empire...And I agree completely; for the Islamic Empire has, indeed, been a divided empire since the assassination of its fifth - and last - Caliph, Ali (d. January 8, 661 A.D.).


[/b]

The geographic area of Georgia is where those ancient historians pointed to. The real matter is that 'anyone' today can say they were wrong in trying to REVISE what they wrote, which is what you're trying to do.

It doesn't matter "what someone today" may say about the location of ancient Tubal, because the only thing that matters is where Ezekiel believe the ancient city/state of Tubal was located. And the answer to that question is undoubtedly the Anatolian peninsula - right where we find the ancient city/state of Meshech, which is also mentioned by Ezekiel in the very same prophecy, and which was never located "north of the Persian Empire."





Here's is what you said:





Face it; you've been caught in the lie of Historical Revisionism, and it's obvious to me, if not others, just why. You're trying to EXCLUDE the part that peoples north of Persia, like Georgia, Russia, etc., will play in the coming Gog and Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39.

I'm sorry, but it is you and others like you who are actually trying to "revise history." Not my history, but Ezekiel's. Because Ezekiel knows exactly where ancient "Meshech and Tubal" where located, and I guarantee you it wasn't in such a remore area of the earth that he did not even know existed....
 

revturmoil

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Richard said,

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]I'm not sure I should even offer this to you, since your post has caused me to doubt your sincerity already, but here goes. A study of the Daniel 2 & 3 chapters reveals a 5th BEAST for the end. The 4th beast kingdom was represented by the old pagan Roman empire. Per the Daniel Scripture, ALL... of the 5 pieces of the beast image statue are 'together' for the final beast kingdom of [/background][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Revelation 13:1-2[/background][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]. That means you're going to have to EXPAND your understanding about the final beast kingdom for the end, as it is to cover all... the areas of the previous 4 beast kingdoms, with the Roman empire representing its power over the Christian West. It's called a "one world government".[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]You claim the fourth "beast" of the book of Daniel is "the Roman Empire," yet you fail to even attempt to give us as much as one reason why Rome is the fourth beast...Scripture never identifies the fourth beast by name - how do you know its identity? [/background]

This is the best link I've found on the Nations of Ezekiel 38-39.

http://www.biblicals...ogy/ezekiel.htm

I'm going to ask you the same question that nobody has yet been able to answer. How can the legs of iron and toes 'mingled' with iron and clay represent Rome, Italy when the word mingled is the Aramaic word 'arab' which denotes Arabia or an Arabian?

Another question that you haven't answered. You claim that that the lion in this verse is the ancient Babylonian Empire.

4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

That interpretation is terribly flawed. Babylon had already risen several decades before Daniel 7 and the Babylonian Empire was on it's way out at that time! It was written in the first year of Belshazzar who was the last king of Babylon.
Daniel 7:1 ¶In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon
That interpretation makes Daniel a false prophet and the atheist have caught onto that colossal blunder and have used it to call Daniel a false prophet and to debunk the bible!
 

veteran

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Lot of the Arab peoples are a 'mixed' people. So the Aramaic word for "mixed" and "mingle themselves" simply means... mixed, and is not a specific pointer to the Arab peoples. And that even though several of the Arab nations are included in the alliance of Gog and Magog coming upon Israel on the last day of this world. That alliance also includes peoples that are NOT of the Arab people, like Japheth's son Gomer (father of Ashkenaz) and those of ancient Tubal (area of modern Georgia near Russia).

The first beast kingdom of Daniel was Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar's reign, as given within Daniel 2. The winged-lion symbol for Babylon was found upon the Gate of Ishtar as one ancient source.
 

Richard Neal

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Lot of the Arab peoples are a 'mixed' people. So the Aramaic word for "mixed" and "mingle themselves" simply means... mixed, and is not a specific pointer to the Arab peoples. And that even though several of the Arab nations are included in the alliance of Gog and Magog coming upon Israel on the last day of this world. That alliance also includes peoples that are NOT of the Arab people, like Japheth's son Gomer (father of Ashkenaz) and those of ancient Tubal (area of modern Georgia near Russia).

The first beast kingdom of Daniel was Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar's reign, as given within Daniel 2. The winged-lion symbol for Babylon was found upon the Gate of Ishtar as one ancient source.

What difference does it make what the "Arab word for mixed" is?...Again, I'm only concerned with the Hebrew the prophet Ezekiel used...Obviously, the "And just as you saw the iron mixed with clay (partially strong partially weak v. 42), so the people [of the fourth empire] will be a mixture and will not remain united" (Dan 2:43), refers to the mixed ethnicity of the fourth empire in contrast to the single ethnicity that made up the three previous empires (Babylonian, Medo-Persia and the Greco Empire). Moreover, this fourth empire will "not remain united" as well...Obviously, then, your claim the the former Soviet Union, or modern Russia, is the same "empire" that Daniel was seeing in his dream-vision does not fulfill these two characteristics of the fourth empire. For Russia is neither made up of a "mixed multitude of people" nor is it a divided empire...There are twenty-four more "unique characteristics' Scripture gives us for the fourth empire, all of which I identify in my book Kingdom of the Antichrist. And, when taken as a whole, they point to only one empire in all of human history - the Islamic Empire - as being the only empire in all of human history which can fulfill all twenty-six unique characteristics.

Richard Neal - author Kingdom of the Antichrist.
 

Rex

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I always leaned towards it being the Roman empire, legs of iron, broken into 10 kingdoms and mixed with the seed of men.
Rome was east and west two legs
Broken in to 10 kingdoms, mixed with the seed of men, the line of kings in western europe.They have never joined "cleaved" together.
Napoleon was one battle away from reuniting Europe "the old Roman empire"
Though when Rome divided it did have an eastern leg based in Constance Noble.

so the people [of the fourth empire] will be a mixture and will not remain united" (Dan 2:43), refers to the mixed ethnicity of the fourth empire in contrast to the single ethnicity that made up the three previous empires (Babylonian, Medo-Persia and the Greco Empire). Moreover, this fourth empire will "not remain united" as well...
Richard Neal - author Kingdom of the Antichrist.

I just wanted to add, the image in particular the legs changed from iron to iron and clay, or else you have a 5th empire.
I believe your right in this context, "a mixed empire" but I see it as a united empire unmixed "iron leg's" then weakened in the later part of its reign, which extends to the coming of the Lord.
So it has to come after the Geek empire and extend to the coming of the Lord. Transitioning in the latter part to iron and clay.
 

Richard Neal

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I always leaned towards it being the Roman empire, legs of iron, broken into 10 kingdoms and mixed with the seed of men.

Many have, over the centuries, believed in some variation of the Roman Empire - or a quasi-revised Roman Empire of some kind - fulfilling the prophecies of Daniel's fourth "beast (empire). This began early in the second century A.D. with the Church Father's, and one can surely see why they thought the Romen Empire was Daniel's fourth beast...But that doesn't make it so...

Rome was east and west two legs

Yes, the Roman Empire was, at various times, broken into two parts - East and West, then at times four parts - East, West, Africa and Anatolia...There are other empires that have been broken into two also - why not consider them?... Scripture gives us twenty-six unique characteristics of Daniel's fourth empire to help us identify it. Matter of fact, that is the only way Scripture gives us to identify Daniel's fourth beast...The problem is, the ancient Roman Empire, whether in Rome or Constantinople, does fulfill all twenty-six characteristics...Only the Islamic Empire - of all the empires of history - fulfills all twenty-six unique identifying characteristics. You can read about these characteristics in my new book Kingdom of the Antichrist.

Broken in to 10 kingdoms, mixed with the seed of men, the line of kings in western europe.They have never joined "cleaved" together.
Napoleon was one battle away from reuniting Europe "the old Roman empire"
Though when Rome divided it did have an eastern leg based in Constance Noble.



I just wanted to add, the image in particular the legs changed from iron to iron and clay, or else you have a 5th empire.
I believe your right in this context, "a mixed empire" but I see it as a united empire unmixed "iron leg's" then weakened in the later part of its reign, which extends to the coming of the Lord.
So it has to come after the Geek empire and extend to the coming of the Lord. Transitioning in the latter part to iron and clay.

The "iron legs" merely represent a powerful empire (iron) that becomes a divided empire (two legs).
 

veteran

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What difference does it make what the "Arab word for mixed" is?...Again, I'm only concerned with the Hebrew the prophet Ezekiel used...Obviously, the "And just as you saw the iron mixed with clay (partially strong partially weak v. 42), so the people [of the fourth empire] will be a mixture and will not remain united" (Dan 2:43), refers to the mixed ethnicity of the fourth empire in contrast to the single ethnicity that made up the three previous empires (Babylonian, Medo-Persia and the Greco Empire). Moreover, this fourth empire will "not remain united" as well...Obviously, then, your claim the the former Soviet Union, or modern Russia, is the same "empire" that Daniel was seeing in his dream-vision does not fulfill these two characteristics of the fourth empire. For Russia is neither made up of a "mixed multitude of people" nor is it a divided empire...There are twenty-four more "unique characteristics' Scripture gives us for the fourth empire, all of which I identify in my book Kingdom of the Antichrist. And, when taken as a whole, they point to only one empire in all of human history - the Islamic Empire - as being the only empire in all of human history which can fulfill all twenty-six unique characteristics.

Richard Neal - author Kingdom of the Antichrist.

My response was to what Kaotic posted, assuming by just that word for mixed means the Arab peoples.

The prophecy is not that difficult for those who take their time and pay attention...

Dan 2:31-3:4
31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

Image:
1. head of gold
2. breast and arms of silver
3. belly and thighs of brass
4. legs of iron
5. feet part of iron and part of clay

Can you count to 5? There are FIVE pieces to that image, not just four.


34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

Which PIECE of the image does that "stone" smite? No. FIVE, the feet of part iron and part clay.


35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

iron-1; clay-2; brass-3; silver-4; gold-5

Once again, FIVE pieces of different materials, not four. And they are ALL broken "together", at the SAME time. The "stone that smote the image ..." is about Christ Jesus as that stone, and what filled the whole earth is about His future Kingdom on earth.


36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath He given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

Nebuchadnezzar represented the head of gold, the kingdom of Babylon.

39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

The next beast kingdom after Babylon was the Medo-Persia empire. And it included several different ethnic groups. The next beast kingdom after that was Alexander's empire, for it conquered the Persians.


40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

The next beast kingdom was that of the pagan Roman empire. That's four; where's the fifth?


41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

This one of the feet of ten toes of part clay and part iron is the FIFTH beast kingdom, and it has yet to appear. It is related to the Roman empire of history by the "iron" symbol. But the "clay" symbol is NEW, not belonging to the Roman empire. How new is the clay? We find out later...


42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
(KJV)

The beast kingdom of the feet of ten toes of part iron and part clay MUST be the final one existing at the time of Christ's second coming, for He is that "stone" that will smite it upon its feet, and the whole... beast image together... comes tumbling down. And then God's Eternal Kingdom under Christ is established forever.

The final FIFTH beast kingdom at the time of Christ's return = the iron, the clay, the silver, the brass, and the gold, ALL TOGETHER when Christ returns to smite it.

So what is that idea of ALL the beast kingdoms being joined together in final for the last days? ANS: ONE-WORLD GOVERNMENT OVER ALL NATIONS AND ALL PEOPLES, A ONE-WORLD SOCIALIST STATE.

Is Communist Russia which is a Socialist nation take part in that? YES!!! World Communism is NOT dead just yet. It is HIDING under the lable of SOCIALISM. And THAT is.... the idea that YOU are trying to HIDE here!
 

Richard Neal

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My response was to what Kaotic posted, assuming by just that word for mixed means the Arab peoples.

The prophecy is not that difficult for those who take their time and pay attention...

Dan 2:31-3:4
31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

Image:
1. head of gold
2. breast and arms of silver
3. belly and thighs of brass
4. legs of iron
5. feet part of iron and part of clay

Can you count to 5? There are FIVE pieces to that image, not just four.


34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

Which PIECE of the image does that "stone" smite? No. FIVE, the feet of part iron and part clay.


35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

iron-1; clay-2; brass-3; silver-4; gold-5

Once again, FIVE pieces of different materials, not four. And they are ALL broken "together", at the SAME time. The "stone that smote the image ..." is about Christ Jesus as that stone, and what filled the whole earth is about His future Kingdom on earth.


36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath He given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

Nebuchadnezzar represented the head of gold, the kingdom of Babylon.

39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

The next beast kingdom after Babylon was the Medo-Persia empire. And it included several different ethnic groups. The next beast kingdom after that was Alexander's empire, for it conquered the Persians.


40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

The next beast kingdom was that of the pagan Roman empire. That's four; where's the fifth?


41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

This one of the feet of ten toes of part clay and part iron is the FIFTH beast kingdom, and it has yet to appear. It is related to the Roman empire of history by the "iron" symbol. But the "clay" symbol is NEW, not belonging to the Roman empire. How new is the clay? We find out later...


42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
(KJV)

The beast kingdom of the feet of ten toes of part iron and part clay MUST be the final one existing at the time of Christ's second coming, for He is that "stone" that will smite it upon its feet, and the whole... beast image together... comes tumbling down. And then God's Eternal Kingdom under Christ is established forever.

The final FIFTH beast kingdom at the time of Christ's return = the iron, the clay, the silver, the brass, and the gold, ALL TOGETHER when Christ returns to smite it.

So what is that idea of ALL the beast kingdoms being joined together in final for the last days? ANS: ONE-WORLD GOVERNMENT OVER ALL NATIONS AND ALL PEOPLES, A ONE-WORLD SOCIALIST STATE.

Is Communist Russia which is a Socialist nation take part in that? YES!!! World Communism is NOT dead just yet. It is HIDING under the lable of SOCIALISM. And THAT is.... the idea that YOU are trying to HIDE here!

I've never heard anyone argue for five empires in Daniel 2?...I guess that is because most scholars recognize that Daniel chapter 2 must be interpreted in context with Daniel chapter 7...If Daniel chapter 2 doesn't make it clear enough for you, Daniel chapter 7 leaves no room to doubt that both visions are concerned with only four empires since it names three of them, leaving only the fourth unnamed.
 

revturmoil

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Veteran said,

Lot of the Arab peoples are a 'mixed' people. So the Aramaic word for "mixed" and "mingle themselves" simply means... mixed, and is not a specific pointer to the Arab peoples.

Of course it's specific. My 1972 book version of Strong's says "ARABIA" and the online version Gesennius say's an ARABIAN!

I'm sure I've said this before....
Daniel tells Nebuchadnezzar much more about the iron and clay than any of the other kingdoms probably because it's an end-time kingdom that the Lord returns to destroy.
So a careful unbiased approach to this passage helps us to understanding the geographical area and who the people of iron and clay are. If you approach it with the pre-conceived idea that only Rome can be the fourth kingdom you'll never know the truth. Regardless of the scriptural evidence Christian's just don't seem to change their mind on forums.

Habakkuk 1 and Daniel 2's toes mingled with iron and clay are the best descriptions in prophecy about the people of the final kingdom that will bring us to Armageddon. I'm convinced that they are none other than the Muslim's and the Arabs who have always been Israel's bitter enemy. Protestant's would like you to believe these toes represent Rome and the European Union or the UN but I say look at the evidence and let the reader decide.

This is the word mixed. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6151&t=KJV

The nations and people of iron and clay will be divided and not cleave to one another and mixed with the seed of men...partly strong, and partly broken....and would subdue all things. This is only true of Arab and Islamic countries, cultures, religion, and people. That's not true of Rome or the EU. They're a peaceful coalition of nations with strong alliances. The Arab World has been divided for centuries but now with the apostasy taking place in the Middle East the man of sin will come and more than one coalition could rise for dominance of the region. And we know what direction it's going. "The Muslim Brotherhood!"

There are so many Arab tribes that you can't count them. I don't want to bore you with a list of hundreds of them in each country. They are proud of their heritage and mix that with Islam and ethnic tensions means blowing yourself up in a mosque for vengeance. Many Arab tribes and clans like the Pashtun are heavily married into their extended family. History and especially todays world proves the Arab's are the end-time iron and clay. They are divided, intermarried, (mixed with the seed of men) and "have not cleaved to one another" and partly strong and partly broken. The NLT uses the word intermarried. Today's word Arab is also a variation of the word 'crossed.'

Italy, Italian's, European's, Catholic's.. just don't fit in any of this detailed description.

Daniel 2:34
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

The stone or "Jesus" smote the entire image. At Armageddon all the kingdom's of the image which are all Mid-East kingdoms are destroyed. Rome is a European kingdom and not included in the image.

The geographical area described in Daniel 2 as well as the king of Grecia is the land of Ishmaelites and Hagarites. This is the area and religion of the harlot as she is the one that "occupies" the "Arab" world" today. The two horned beast is likely symbolic of the Sunni and Shia sects Islam. The jihadist and Islamist sects are symbolic in the "harlot." The Arab world is the area, the people, and the religion that has evolved into Babylon the Great, whose harlot promises them virgins in paradise..... and who want to see Israel destroyed. They will lead the world into tribulation and ultimately Armageddon.

Most of the unrest in the world comes from the rising Muslim population. It doesn't take rocket science to figure out out that Islam is evil and Satan is active in world domination through it. But you guys somehow just refuse to see that. How is Rome or Europe a threat to the world today? I don't see any way how those nations can fulfill the prophecies of the end.

The ancient Roman Empire was actually more unified than the Grecian Empire anyway. So even then your theory doesn't work.

Both iron and clay are brittle and they don't mix. There are ethnic tensions all over the Arab world. Nearly all the alliances made in that part of the world are fragile. they are broken all the time. The Arab people have mixed, crossed, and broken up into hundreds of different tribes scattered across the entire Mid-East including northern Africa. Islam has also subdued nearly all religions in the region.

The toes of iron and clay of the fourth kingdom is said to subdue all things. Which Islam has since it's inception.

Daniel 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. Islam has dominated the Arab world and not a good place to be a non Muslim.
You should read about the Muslim's jesus and Muhammad, the prophet like unto Moses. That alone should get a light on in your head.

The ‘little horn’ of Daniel 7 and 8 who takes his stand against the Prince of princes comes out of Alexander’s splintered kingdom and no where else. And the ‘king of the north" in Daniel 11 and 12, who exalts himself in the time of the end, comes out of the root of Antiochus, again a fragment of Alexander’s empire. Why then do so many prophecy experts continue to tell us that Rome is somehow the origin of the beast!? Every nation mentioned in every prophecy I know are Arab and/or Islamic today and they are committing the abominations of the earth as we speak.

Rex said,

I always leaned towards it being the Roman empire, legs of iron, broken into 10 kingdoms and mixed with the seed of men.
Rome was east and west two legs
Broken in to 10 kingdoms, mixed with the seed of men, the line of kings in western europe.They have never joined "cleaved" together.
Napoleon was one battle away from reuniting Europe "the old Roman empire"
Though when Rome divided it did have an eastern leg based in Constance Noble.

That's what I what taught too and believed for about 20 years. Then I questioned it for about 15 years. Then when I saw Satan's face emerge from the smoke as it first blew out the South Tower...I was convinced. Everything I wanted to know about Islam I learned on 911.


I just wanted to add, the image in particular the legs changed from iron to iron and clay, or else you have a 5th empire.
I believe your right in this context, "a mixed empire" but I see it as a united empire unmixed "iron leg's" then weakened in the later part of its reign, which extends to the coming of the Lord.
So it has to come after the Geek empire and extend to the coming of the Lord. Transitioning in the latter part to iron and clay.

I agree with quite a lot of that.
 

teleiosis

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Tell me: How is it that the beasts of Daniel 7 are the same as the parts of the statue in Daniel 2 when according to Daniel 7:12, after the fourth beast is destroyed, the three previous beasts are allowed to "live" a little longer?

Babylon and Medes-Persia are history.

And tell me too, if the clay is "mixed" with the iron, is the Kingdom still the "Iron" Kingdom?

If the Aramaic word "mix" is closely related to the Hebrew word for "steppe dweller," or "desert platea," could this not suggest who is "mixed" in with the iron Kingdom that supplanted Greece: Rome? Do not the European countries nearly all house sizable Muslim minorities that do not "mix" with the historical culture of each nation?