The biblical truth is a dialectical equation

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

That is the conclusion of someone who doesn't yet understand how to think like the bible is written. So you accuse foolishly....the bible itself. Doers of the law are justified....very basic. But your backward reasoning would have justified people then doing. But that is an evangelical falsehood. And very dishonest.

I am laying out the polarities for HONEST seekers to try understanding it....not for religious indoctrinated people to get judgmental based on their inability to discern what truth is. And then to add words in or take words out...or flip the words.

people read the bible everyday and still don't understand basic things through a dishonest reading.

I find that Your posts are spot on or ice cold.
I think you do not have a correct take on justification by faith, not works.
Our works are evidence of saving faith at work, those good works that are ordained that we should walk in them. eph2:
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Notice, it is UNTO good works, not because of

 

[Episkopos]

How do you know you are indoctrinated? When you have to add the word "self" into the following text from Jesus...

Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus compares the righteous to they who are healthy and don't need a doctor. (Jesus being that doctor)

How does that work with evangelicalism? Why is the truth so difficult to understand AFTER one hears the modern version of the gospel?

Could there be something missing from the truth equation in these?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

How do you know you are indoctrinated? When you have to add the word "self" into the following text from Jesus...

Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus compares the righteous to they who are healthy and don't need a doctor. (Jesus being that doctor)

How does that work with evangelicalism? Why is the truth so difficult to understand AFTER one hears the modern version of the gospel?

Could there be something missing from the truth equation in these?

Luke 5 does nothing to answer what I have offered to you.

 

[bbyrd009]

The bible is written as a "dialectic"...where there is a thesis...an antithesis..and when these agree we have synthesis.

i would disagree that the naive dialectic follows the hegelian model so exactly; it seems like more of a "both/and" equation than an exclusionary one, wherin a certain winner is implied?

 

[bbyrd009]

It is important to understand that as a Westerner, your thought processes are vastly different from those who have been raised to reason from the Eastern dialectic, as the Jewish writers were:

"
...Dialectical reasoning is actually opposed to formal logic in many ways.

Western Logic Versus Eastern Dialecticism
Aristotle placed at the foundations of logical thought the following three propositions.
1. Identity: A = A. Whatever is, is. A is itself and not some other thing.
2. Noncontradiction: A and not A can't both be the case. Nothing can both be and not be. A proposition and its opposite can't both be true.
3. Excluded middle: Everything must either be or not be. A or not A can be true but not something in between.

(the "thesis/antithesis/synthesis" {war} model restated)

Modern Westerners accept these propositions (but Easterners do not)...
...three principles underlie Eastern dialecticism. Notice I didn't say "propositions..." the term "proposition" has much too formal a ring for what is a generalized stance toward the world rather than a set of ironclad rules.

1. Principle of change:
Reality is a process of change.
What is currently true will shortly be false.
2. Principle of contradiction:
Contradiction is the dynamic underlying change.
Because change is constant, contradiction is constant.
3. Principle of relationships (or holism):
The whole is more than the sum of its parts.
Parts are meaningful only in relation to the whole...

These principles are intimately linked...
The principles also imply another important tenet of Eastern thought, which is the insistence on finding the "middle way" between extreme propositions...
...and Talmudic scholars developed it over the next two millennia and more.

"Mindware" Richard E. Nisbett, pp. 224-5

 

[Episkopos]

I find that Your posts are spot on or ice cold.
I think you do not have a correct take on justification by faith, not works.
Our works are evidence of saving faith at work, those good works that are ordained that we should walk in them. eph2:
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I find your judgment interesting. What if I'm actually always speaking from exactly the same place but you are missing pieces from the puzzle?

it's like the elephant in the dark room. If I describe something you have experienced...then you will agree. But if I describe MORE than you have understood....you will opt for a judgment that makes anything you don't see as wrong....thus making yourself the final arbiter of truth.

God's ways are perfectly balanced. If you look at the dialectic they cover what you already believe...but add in an element you still don't understand. So you have to leave room to grow...cause if you judge the more as wrong...you are as stuck as a pharisee who claims to see when he doesn't.

 

[Episkopos]

i would disagree that the naive dialectic follows the hegelian model so exactly; it seems like more of a "both/and" equation than an exclusionary one, wherin a certain winner is implied?

That's right. But very few can put the both/ands together in any kind of logical way.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Chapter 16: Of Good Works
1._____ Good works are only such as God hath commanded in his Holy Word, and not such as without the warrant thereof are devised by men out of blind zeal, or upon any pretence of good intentions.
( Micah 6:8; Hebrews 13:21; Matthew 15:9; Isaiah 29:13 )
2._____ These good works, done in obedience to God's commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith; and by them believers manifest their thankfulness, strengthen their assurance, edify their brethren, adorn the profession of the gospel, stop the mouths of the adversaries, and glorify God, whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto, that having their fruit unto holiness they may have the end eternal life.
( James 2:18, 22; Psalms 116:12, 13; 1 John 2:3, 5; 2 Peter 1:5-11; Matthew 5:16; 1 Timothy 6:1; 1 Peter 2:15; Philippians 1:11; Ephesians 2:10; Romans 6:22 )

3._____ Their ability to do good works is not at all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ; and that they may be enabled thereunto, besides the graces they have already received, there is necessary an actual influence of the same Holy Spirit, to work in them to will and to do of his good pleasure; yet they are not hereupon to grow negligent, as if they were not bound to perform any duty, unless upon a special motion of the Spirit, but they ought to be diligent in stirring up the grace of God that is in them.
( John 15:4, 5; 2 Corinthians 3:5; Philippians 2:13; Philippians 2:12; Hebrews 6:11, 12; Isaiah 64:7 )

4._____ They who in their obedience attain to the greatest height which is possible in this life, are so far from being able to supererogate, and to do more than God requires, as that they fall short of much which in duty they are bound to do.
( Job 9:2, 3; Galatians 5:17; Luke 17:10 )

5._____ We cannot by our best works merit pardon of sin or eternal life at the hand of God, by reason of the great disproportion that is between them and the glory to come, and the infinite distance that is between us and God, whom by them we can neither profit nor satisfy for the debt of our former sins; but when we have done all we can, we have done but our duty, and are unprofitable servants; and because as they are good they proceed from his Spirit, and as they are wrought by us they are defiled and mixed with so much weakness and imperfection, that they cannot endure the severity of God's punishment.
( Romans 3:20; Ephesians 2:8, 9; Romans 4:6; Galatians 5:22, 23; Isaiah 64:6; Psalms 143:2 )

6._____ Yet notwithstanding the persons of believers being accepted through Christ, their good works also are accepted in him; not as though they were in this life wholly unblameable and unreprovable in God's sight, but that he, looking upon them in his Son, is pleased to accept and reward that which is sincere, although accompanied with many weaknesses and imperfections.
( Ephesians 1:6; 1 Peter 2:5; Matthew 25:21, 23; Hebrews 6:10 )

7._____ Works done by unregenerate men, although for the matter of them they may be things which God commands, and of good use both to themselves and others; yet because they proceed not from a heart purified by faith, nor are done in a right manner according to the word, nor to a right end, the glory of God, they are therefore sinful, and cannot please God, nor make a man meet to receive grace from God, and yet their neglect of them is more sinful and displeasing to God.
( 2 Kings 10:30; 1 Kings 21:27, 29; Genesis 4:5; Hebrews 11:4, 6; 1 Corinthians 13:1; Matthew 6:2, 5; Amos 5:21, 22; Romans 9:16; Titus 3:5; Job 21:14, 15; Matthew 25:41-43 )

 

[bbyrd009]

That's right.

ha

But very few can put the both/ands together in any kind of logical way.

ah well mercy and self sacrifice are like that i guess

 

[Episkopos]

Chapter 16: Of Good Works
1._____ Good works are only such as God hath commanded in his Holy Word, and not such as without the warrant thereof are devised by men out of blind zeal, or upon any pretence of good intentions.
( Micah 6:8; Hebrews 13:21; Matthew 15:9; Isaiah 29:13 )
2._____ These good works, done in obedience to God's commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith; and by them believers manifest their thankfulness, strengthen their assurance, edify their brethren, adorn the profession of the gospel, stop the mouths of the adversaries, and glorify God, whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto, that having their fruit unto holiness they may have the end eternal life.
( James 2:18, 22; Psalms 116:12, 13; 1 John 2:3, 5; 2 Peter 1:5-11; Matthew 5:16; 1 Timothy 6:1; 1 Peter 2:15; Philippians 1:11; Ephesians 2:10; Romans 6:22 )

3._____ Their ability to do good works is not at all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ; and that they may be enabled thereunto, besides the graces they have already received, there is necessary an actual influence of the same Holy Spirit, to work in them to will and to do of his good pleasure; yet they are not hereupon to grow negligent, as if they were not bound to perform any duty, unless upon a special motion of the Spirit, but they ought to be diligent in stirring up the grace of God that is in them.
( John 15:4, 5; 2 Corinthians 3:5; Philippians 2:13; Philippians 2:12; Hebrews 6:11, 12; Isaiah 64:7 )

4._____ They who in their obedience attain to the greatest height which is possible in this life, are so far from being able to supererogate, and to do more than God requires, as that they fall short of much which in duty they are bound to do.
( Job 9:2, 3; Galatians 5:17; Luke 17:10 )

5._____ We cannot by our best works merit pardon of sin or eternal life at the hand of God, by reason of the great disproportion that is between them and the glory to come, and the infinite distance that is between us and God, whom by them we can neither profit nor satisfy for the debt of our former sins; but when we have done all we can, we have done but our duty, and are unprofitable servants; and because as they are good they proceed from his Spirit, and as they are wrought by us they are defiled and mixed with so much weakness and imperfection, that they cannot endure the severity of God's punishment.
( Romans 3:20; Ephesians 2:8, 9; Romans 4:6; Galatians 5:22, 23; Isaiah 64:6; Psalms 143:2 )

6._____ Yet notwithstanding the persons of believers being accepted through Christ, their good works also are accepted in him; not as though they were in this life wholly unblameable and unreprovable in God's sight, but that he, looking upon them in his Son, is pleased to accept and reward that which is sincere, although accompanied with many weaknesses and imperfections.
( Ephesians 1:6; 1 Peter 2:5; Matthew 25:21, 23; Hebrews 6:10 )

7._____ Works done by unregenerate men, although for the matter of them they may be things which God commands, and of good use both to themselves and others; yet because they proceed not from a heart purified by faith, nor are done in a right manner according to the word, nor to a right end, the glory of God, they are therefore sinful, and cannot please God, nor make a man meet to receive grace from God, and yet their neglect of them is more sinful and displeasing to God.
( 2 Kings 10:30; 1 Kings 21:27, 29; Genesis 4:5; Hebrews 11:4, 6; 1 Corinthians 13:1; Matthew 6:2, 5; Amos 5:21, 22; Romans 9:16; Titus 3:5; Job 21:14, 15; Matthew 25:41-43 )

All of this still doesn't answer the very basic seeming contradictions....since it is trying to back up only one side of a truth...while leaving the other as being false.

The human brain works that way...but that is the carnal mind, not the mind of Christ. So then the mind needs to be joined into the mind of Christ. Then everything can be understood.

I'm trying to put the dialectic in a sequence so that a person can follow the path by understanding one equation at a time.

The bible is describing a finished picture....whereas people only see very small bits. So you have to slowly put the pieces together like in Ez. 37 with the dry bones. Then the picture begins to emerge.

 

[bbyrd009]

gl with that

__ Good works are only such as God hath commanded in his Holy Word, and not such as without

no offense, but the Bible is not Word, and believe it or not It is not even holy!
weird i know, but theophneustos is not logos, and sacred is not holy
so, not off to a great start imo
satans dialectic, too?

and in fact im sure that no, good works are not only such as Yah hath (barketh, barketh) commanded specifically in the Book, we even have a v to the effect

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

All of this still doesn't answer the very basic seeming contradictions....it is trying to back up only one side of a truth...while leaving the other as being false.

The human brain works that way...but that is the carnal mind, not the mind of Christ. So then the mind needs to be joined intoi the mind of Christ. Then everything can be understood.

No....we are not spiritual schizophrenics. This well-worded statement of faith answers all your questions. You did not have time to give it a proper reading, so take your time and work through it.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

gl with that

no offense, but the Bible is not Word, and believe it or not It is not even holy!
weird i know, but theophneustos is not logos, and sacred is not holy
so, not off to a great start imo
satans dialectic, too?

and in fact im sure that no, good works are not only such as Yah hath (barketh, barketh) commanded specifically in the Book, we even have a v to the effect

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[Episkopos]

No....we are not spiritual schizophrenics. This well-worded statement of faith answers all your questions. You did not have time to give it a proper reading, so take your time and work through it.

Of you only knew how long I have been trying to explain this....people ARE double minded...the brain has two almost disconnected hemispheres. A Christian needs to learn how they connect...not how to know an aspect of the truth in one side of the brain.

So since I started this thread...I ask you to look a lot closer at the biblical statements....without changing the wording to suit your previous ideas.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

2cor10
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

 

[Episkopos]

The brain is divided between what is known...and what is accepted by faith. Or we could say...between order and chaos....or the known and the unknown.

Learning means what was previously unknown is now known...thus making an inter-brain connection.

The unknown God.

people take God by faith...in the realm of the unknown. But to learn of Him...one needs to go into the unknown. In order to make KNOWN what was once unknown. But almost nobody does that after gradeschool. People accept the unknown by beliefs and conclude that more can't be known. So then any attempt at advancement is seen as false.

 

[Episkopos]

2cor10
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

You are using verses as a shield to hide a propaganda. And that is because you fear the unknown.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

You are using verses as a shield to hide a propaganda. And that is because you fear the unknown.

Sorry, my friend, I live in scripture, not new age mumbo jumbo.

18 Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
One problem with those who press for novelties think no one else has thought what they have. The fact is they have and rejected such ideas as unbiblical

 

[DNB]

The bible is written as a "dialectic"...where there is a thesis...an antithesis..and when these agree we have synthesis. it is a way to understanding the truth based on the way our brains work. We have 2 poles in our brain that function each separately. It's what allows us to become hypocrites for instance. So it is only as BOTH sides of the brain are brought into the mix that we can perceive what truth is. Most people will argue from one side or the other..so that they never are able to grasp the truth. instead they have "their" truth...a side of a truth.

A good example of this in religion is the Calvinist/Armenian dialectic.

So then neither is right. But by looking at arguments from BOTH sides we can arrive at a balanced understanding.

But this takes work and lots of thinking things out. As Einstein once said...thinking is hard work..that's why so few people do it!

I think it's more like a paradox, that is, both statements are always true, even Calvin vs Arminius. And, like you said, it's reconciling the perceived conflicts that is required of one who rightly divides God's Word. And, as you also stated, this tends to separate the misguided (those who claim they fully understand, but barely do - couldn't agree more), from the wise and sincere.

Excuse me for re-posting a previous post of mine, but it reflects my view well on how to harmonize God's sovereignty, with man's free-will. I believe that this is what you are requesting, a resolve to two perceived, opposing Biblical axioms?

I think that between God's sovereignty, foreknowledge and omniscience, he knows exactly who are his, or, who will do what, in any given circumstance, before the beginning of time. And thus, he has created the environment that is conducive to expose those, who by their free-will, will either accept or reject the Gospel of Christ, accordingly.
God knows us better than we know ourselves, just as Jesus knew who would abandon him, despite the culprits declaring and insisting otherwise. This does not mean that anyone was forced, possessed, or wired to act in a particular manner. Wisdom just gives the possessor of it, that insight. Just as a parent knows their children, better than the kids know themselves. And therefore, they control the environment in order to bring out the best for them.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I think it's more like a paradox, that is, both statements are always true, even Calvin vs Arminius. And, like you said, it's reconciling the perceived conflicts that is required of one who rightly divides God's Word. And, as you also stated, this tends to separate the misguided (those who claim they fully understand, but barely do - couldn't agree more), from the wise and sincere.

Excuse me for re-posting a previous post of mine, but it reflects my view well on how to harmonize God's sovereignty, with man's free-will. I believe that this is what you are requesting, a resolve to two perceived, opposing Biblical axioms?

I think that between God's sovereignty, foreknowledge and omniscience, he knows exactly who are his, or, who will do what, in any given circumstance, before the beginning of time. And thus, he has created the environment that is conducive to expose those, who by their free-will, will either accept or reject the Gospel of Christ, accordingly.
God knows us better than we know ourselves, just as Jesus knew who would abandon him, despite the culprits declaring and insisting otherwise. This does not mean that anyone was forced, possessed, or wired to act in a particular manner. Wisdom just gives the possessor of it, that insight. Just as a parent knows their children, better than the kids know themselves. And therefore, they control the environment in order to bring out the best for them.

This has no biblical support and is based on a faulty view of foreknowledge, Free will does not exist.