The biblical truth is a dialectical equation

[marks]

So people believe what they want to.

Yes some do, and the evidence is clearly seen.

 

[Episkopos]

For they who still think it's healthy to think on this forum...and only they. Notice how I presented BOTH sides of the equation that is offered up as truth in the bible. I am not throwing one or the other out..although that is how it is perceived by some here. And just the fact that I bring up other verses that don't comply with a rigid and limiting mindset...I am attacked as if I wrote those verses in the bible myself. So their beef is not with me but with God. The truth remains the truth.

Now I say these things in the hope that a few people will indeed look deeper than say a Pharisee would...before they condemn. Learning necessitates going the extra mile...going further. Not stopping when the carnal mind is satisfied it has everything IT wants.

I am just doing what I would hope others would do for me if I became indoctrinated into a half-truth.

But as Paul said so aptly...the more I love the less I am loved. The more you try to help people the more you will be attacked. THAT is the challenge of all godly ministry. To please God means to necessarily be displeasing to most people.

But the spiritual company is well worth the effort...

 

[marks]

Another foundational dialectic...or "polarity" concerns the law.

Rom. 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Compare with...

Rom. 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


So then grace establishes the law.

The necessity of faith shows the absolute condemnation under the Law. Grace does not put one under the Law. Grace shows the limitations of the Law.

This is the simplicity, if you require, and are actually interested in exploring an alternative view to what you are presenting, I'll be happy to expand on this with a more complete presentation.

If you are actually interested.

 

[marks]

Now I say these things in the hope that a few people will indeed look deeper than say a Pharisee would...before they condemn.

Interestingly, this is also my hope!

 

[r1xlx]

Jesus said the best way to deal with the Episkoposes:
Matthew 10:14.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

 

[marks]

Notice how I presented BOTH sides of the equation that is offered up as truth in the bible. I am not throwing one or the other out..although that is how it is perceived by some here.

You're the one who opened this up suggesting the Bible is a dialectic.

Dialectic or dialectics, also known as the dialectical method, is at base a discourse between two or more people holding different points of view about a subject but wishing to establish the truth through reasoned arguments. Wikipedia

The Bible does not hold "different points of view", and any intimation that it does is false. The artificial "both sides" do not come from a true understanding of Scripture.

Any time you think the Bible contradicts itself, the answer is to set aside those conclusions and study more.

But again, the true intent, or so it seems to me, of this thread, is to support the idea of self-righteousness apart from Christ, as if we can somehow make ourselves good enough for God.

But as Paul said so aptly...the more I love the less I am loved.

The more you love?

A simple review of the thread, and others, will quickly reveal truth about that. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

 

[Episkopos]

May I suggest the "ignore feature" to attenuate the religious and judgmental types from getting in the way of deeper truth.

now Jesus was hated by the religious people of His day...because He sought to add a new layer or depth to the law. People were very upset about that.

Even His own disciples would remark..."then who can be saved?"

Jesus was coming to bring a new kind of holiness....an actual relational walk in the power of God..called grace.

But before He did that He made the law a lot harder to follow. Whereas before a man could look desiringly at a woman...but as long as he kept his hands off her...he was still following the "righteousness" of the law. So Jesus made that law a spiritual one (as the others) by going the "extra mile". Now under grace even to LOOK at a woman inappropriately is the same as committing adultery.

This was a very difficult thing to hear.

So Jesus took a law that was reduced to what a human behaviour could accomplish by the people and returned it to it's original spiritual intent. So it seemed that Jesus was putting salvation out of reach for the regular human being. (Although we see that coveting laws were already spiritual only in their scope)

But in truth Jesus was going to show the kind of power He was bringing to the table. That power is called the grace of God. Under grace men walk as Jesus walked...with no sin even in their thoughts. So the law had to be returned to it's original depth to show the grace of God's effectiveness against all things sinful. A far deeper walk than just what men could do in their own strength. (Not that Jesus was against humans behaving righteously. He didn't call these to repent after all)

The gospel was about a new life and power that is gifted to men by being IN Christ.

So we have the righteousness of the law (a proper outward behaviour)

And the holiness of the law (the law is holy)....an inward conformity to Jesus Christ...and this can only be obeyed through the strengthening grace of God through Christ.

And this dialectic is still in place today...a righteousness according to what men can do...and the holiness of a grace based on what God can do through Christ in a person.

And the people who argue against this do so because they want to believe that their human efforts are under grace...which of course they are not.Do we even think evil thoughts? If so we are walking in the strength of the carnal man.

Being under grace means being IN Christ who knew no sin. So then under grace has no law against it...because the law is being fulfilled...not just on the righteous level....but also on the holy level. God is holy...and we are to be holy.

They who are not under grace and still sin...are yet under the law.

 

[marks]

And the people who argue against this do so because they want to believe that their human efforts are under grace...

Um . . . my dispute is a little different. Though you do continue on with this false accusation. What would you call it when someone falsely accuses?

Philippians 3
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

...a righteousness according to what men can do...

You decide which is right.

 

[marks]

That power is called the grace of God. Under grace men walk as Jesus walked...with no sin even in their thoughts.

This part you have right.

 

[DNB]

Good post. Yes...paradox. But it takes some honesty to see that...and quite a bit of seeking to find out why that is necessary.

Yes, the perceived contradictions do elude a lot of people, at least when attempting to reconcile them within their exegesis.

 

[marks]

Whereas before a man could look desiringly at a woman...but as long as he kept his hands off her...he was still following the "righteousness" of the law.

It was always there, and Jesus pointed it out.

In commanding thou shalt not covet, that's the heart, and includes your neighbor's wife, any but your own. So no, looking with Lust never was OK under the Law.

But for those who wanted to pretend that they were righteous in their own eyes, Jesus pretty much just rips that away.

 

[marks]

Yes, the perceived contradictions do elude a lot of people, at least when attempting to reconcile them within their exegesis.

I think that's just it, perceived contraditions. We do better to explore why we see them as contradictions instead of treating them as if they actually were contradictions.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

You can lead people to knowledge...but you can't make them think. And since thinking is out of the equation....all that is left is a lack of experience with God and to replace that...a dogmatic certainty based on a one-sided ideology that props up a feeling of a good outcome for they who blindly and unthinkingly accept it.


So basically religious Phariseeism.

Hey it's easy to do and requires no thinking or actual encounter with God.

Luther came to that kind of ideological solution centuries ago...and people call that a reformation.
So people believe what they want to.

Yes, you're preaching Pharisaism: Luke 18:9-14. You're always glad that you're self-righteous, and not like others. The solemn and frightful thing is you cannot even see it!

For others, you need to realize what this @Episkopos is preaching is not the Gospel and isn't even Christianity whatsoever.

 

[DNB]

I think that's just it, perceived contraditions. We do better to explore why we see them as contradictions instead of treating them as if they actually were contradictions.

Yes, I think that's exactly it. The Bible is by one Author, and he is neither confused nor haphazard. There is a common theme throughout Scriptures, all meant to lead toward the pinnacle of His creation, Jesus Christ.
Therefore, the message is rational, cohesive and profound. I've always said, one's exegesis reveals a great deal about one's wisdom and faith.

 

[Child of God]

The bible is written as a "dialectic"...where there is a thesis...an antithesis..and when these agree we have synthesis. it is a way to understanding the truth based on the way our brains work. We have 2 poles in our brain that function each separately. It's what allows us to become hypocrites for instance. So it is only as BOTH sides of the brain are brought into the mix that we can perceive what truth is. Most people will argue from one side or the other..so that they never are able to grasp the truth. instead they have "their" truth...a side of a truth.

A good example of this in religion is the Calvinist/Armenian dialectic.

So then neither is right. But by looking at arguments from BOTH sides we can arrive at a balanced understanding.

But this takes work and lots of thinking things out. As Einstein once said...thinking is hard work..that's why so few people do it!

You are not very intelligent are you?

Is this your website?

You are not very intelligent.

I am sorry, I have to tell you, You are not very intelligent.
Curse me all you want, All I said was you are not very Intelligent.

Come to accept that you are not very intelligent?

There are people that are VERY INTELLIGENT,
Just like there are People that are Very FIT.

You, my friend are not one of the VERY Intelligent.

You have however an opportunity to interact with them on this web site.

 

[prism]

God's Word is one Truth. It is fallen man looking at that Truth as through a dark glass that divides that Truth in their finite wisdom (as in the Calvin/Arminian debate) and then tries to find a unified truth between two seeming contradictory statements. Our Truth detector is broken but don't blame that on Biblical Truth...blame it on our fallen nature.

 

[Episkopos]

You are not very intelligent are you?

Is this your website?

You are not very intelligent.

I am sorry, I have to tell you, You are not very intelligent.
Curse me all you want, All I said was you are not very Intelligent.

Come to accept that you are not very intelligent?

There are people that are VERY INTELLIGENT,
Just like there are People that are Very FIT.

You, my friend are not one of the VERY Intelligent.

You have however an opportunity to interact with them on this web site.

Let me get this straight...are you questioning my intelligence?

 

[Man on Fire]

Here is how God has had me explaining it:

The Bible is full of valid arguments that appear contradictory. The Truth is up the middle like a catholic crossing himself.

• The Lord is a Man of War.
• God is Love.
  
• Spare the Rod, Spoil the Child.
  
• Show mercy and kindness.

Given I am a teacher in a classroom, and I have misbehaving students, I show no mercy or kindness by sparing the rod.

The Holy Ghost is a teacher and councilor. The Spiritual may be kind of like a Scooby Doo Cartoon where someone is in a house with upside down stair cases, and doors that lead to nowhere. The only way through is with God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So I say the proper response is not to call these thesis and antithesis, as you do in you OP, then deriving a synthesis. Rather, to seek a greater understanding of these passages so that you can see that they are not antithetical to each other, and the full and correct understanding will harmonize with both passages. There no synthesis, each are fully true in their own right, and a full understanding reveals this.

But I do realize that while you OP was ostensibly that the Bible was a dialectic, that your actual intent - appears to be - another thread against Luther, and another thread promoting self-righteousness.

So it's not about understanding these passages, it's more about using them against each other to support your synthesis, self-righteousness.

I've answsered you and there is no need to keep on repeating myself to someone whose only concern regarding me appears to be to bully me off his threads. But you do need to keep in mind this is a public forum, and your decorum reflects on you.

You post a thread about the Bible as a dialectic, but in reality it's a thread promoting your view of self-righteousness, and you call me dishonest.

I really wish you would put on your big boy pants and stop with this everconstant accusation of being bullied by episkopos. He does not seek out your threads. You seek out his threads. then you post a rebuttal, and within one or two more posts, you are whining about being bullied. There are some vicious people in here. I mean really vicious. Epi is not one of them.

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus Christ brings in a new level of intimacy with God by bringing in a direct connectivity to God..through Him.

But many will not be able to understand this.
A good example is with the pregnancy of Mary, the mother of Jesus.

Now Joseph was a good and righteous man. But he was faced with a dilemma (Jesus always does this). How could he marry a woman who was pregnant? So the righteous thing to do was to put her away quietly. This he did to follow after righteousness.

But God was transcending a normal righteousness in His intervention with Mary. The child was holy.

So God sent an angel to Joseph assuring him that this was on a holiness level...whereby the normal righteousness standard was being transcended.(of course God doesn't break any laws in His transcending of righteousness...and that's something that we can't do)

And this has always been the way in Christ.

Only God's direct intervention brings us into the level of Christ.

So without that distinction....people are making a normal righteousness...into something it isn't...holy.

So unless we see the difference between what men can do...and should do...to keep a righteous standard in life; and what God can do in calling us farther into His will and confidence through grace...we will stumble over Christ.