The birthplace and deathplace of Christ

[confused]

Perhaps someone could shed some knowledgeable light on these matters ?

Many persons believe that Jesus was born in a cave, which is now a part of a very holy and well patronised church.

I however do not for a moment believe that anyone, in that time period irrespective of their station in life, would have been born in a cave . Where then would be the most logical place that Jesus would have been born in ? And why are people deceived into believing that such an extraordinary gentlemen was born in a clearly less than impoverished place of disgrace ?

My second issue is this.
If I am not mistaken Jesus was sadly crucified ,at a horrendous place called Golgotha ? This place is a barren hostile solid rock plateau, how do you bury a cross, carrying an average person's weight, into a rocky escarpment ? Why are people misled into believing he was crucified in such a disgracefull location. And where is the true location of his torment , suffering and Demise? You can only carry a cross of this size, a certain distance before you collapse from exhaustion. Perhaps that is the key to his place of crucification.

My third issue is this
After Jesus was taken down from the cross, he was lain out in a tomb that was sealed with a giant Stone ?
How many tombs of this style and size, actually could have existed in this time and place?

I suspect he was more than likely carefully and respectfully placed in a grave near where his crucification took place. My instincts tell me this was perhaps in an area that is now accessible , due to the relentless bombing from Israel of Palestine.

Jesus did, I believe rise from the dead. But he did not casually stroll out of a glorious large tomb, after rolling a giant rock aside ,??

Although I would not go looking for his grave due to the recent huge number of landmines placed in the whole area by bloody Israel.

Any comments appreciated. Maybe my ideas are I'll conceived and not based in fact ? But we all learn from asking questions.. cheers

 

[ScottA]

Perhaps someone could shed some knowledgeable light on these matters ?

Many persons believe that Jesus was born in a cave, which is now a part of a very holy and well patronised church.

I however do not for a moment believe that anyone, in that time period irrespective of their station in life, would have been born in a cave . Where then would be the most logical place that Jesus would have been born in ? And why are people deceived into believing that such an extraordinary gentlemen was born in a clearly less than impoverished place of disgrace ?

My second issue is this.
If I am not mistaken Jesus was sadly crucified ,at a horrendous place called Golgotha ? This place is a barren hostile solid rock plateau, how do you bury a cross, carrying an average person's weight, into a rocky escarpment ? Why are people misled into believing he was crucified in such a disgracefull location. And where is the true location of his torment , suffering and Demise? You can only carry a cross of this size, a certain distance before you collapse from exhaustion. Perhaps that is the key to his place of crucification.

My third issue is this
After Jesus was taken down from the cross, he was lain out in a tomb that was sealed with a giant Stone ?
How many tombs of this style and size, actually could have existed in this time and place?

I suspect he was more than likely carefully and respectfully placed in a grave near where his crucification took place. My instincts tell me this was perhaps in an area that is now accessible , due to the relentless bombing from Israel of Palestine.

Jesus did, I believe rise from the dead. But he did not casually stroll out of a glorious large tomb, after rolling a giant rock aside ,??

Although I would not go looking for his grave due to the recent huge number of landmines placed in the whole area by bloody Israel.

Any comments appreciated. Maybe my ideas are I'll conceived and not based in fact ? But we all learn from asking questions.. cheers

God has made manifest all the world in the form of "likeness" and "image"--not that all is reasonable or to be considered logical according to men--but because it is all a form of revelation, just so that the message of revelation is revealed to those whom have eyes to see and ears to hear. So if things seem to be unlikely, or even repeated for our learning, do not be surprised. Is a male peacock not made by God to be noticed? Does it even occur to a female peacock, that the image is as if the male is looking at her with a thousand eyes? Likely not. But to us, we were meant to look at such things as "likeness"--with expectation.

In time--which is given to each of us--all is revealed; to some in life in part, to other in life more or less, and to others not in life but in death. Things are exactly as they should be according to His marvelous plan of revealing.

 

[Muna]

If I am not mistaken Jesus was sadly crucified ,at a horrendous place called Golgotha ?

Mark.15
22 And they bring him unto the place Golgotha,
which is, being interpreted, The place of a skull.

This place is a barren hostile solid rock plateau

Think about the interpretation also, "the place of a skull"

Which is naturally hard headed as it is hostile/ and/or enmity against God

Romans 8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God

 

[Muna]

My third issue is this
After Jesus was taken down from the cross, he was lain out in a tomb that was sealed with a giant Stone ?

We know Jesus who was crucified with wicked men (between two thieves) and laid in the tomb of a rich man

Matt 25:57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:

Matt 27:58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.

Matt 27:59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,

Then it says here

Matt 27:60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

Spoken of in Isaiah here

Isaiah 53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

As far as the stone goes it says here

Matt 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. (but also see below)

How many tombs of this style and size, actually could have existed in this time and place?

Not a clue, probably not many, but I did an AI search for you

The tomb described in Matthew 27:60, which was a new, rock-hewn tomb cut into the rock, was typical for the wealthy in first-century Judea, indicating Joseph of Arimathea's high social status. Rock-cut tombs were common among the affluent, providing security and permanence, and were often used by prominent families. These tombs typically featured a small entrance leading to an interior chamber, sometimes with benches or recesses for the deceased. However, the specific type of tomb described, with a large stone rolled across the entrance, was relatively rare. Archaeological evidence suggests that only a small number of tombs from the late Second Temple period were sealed with a disk-shaped, rolling stone, which required a specially carved groove in the entrance. The majority of tombs were sealed with a square, block-shaped stone, known as a "golal," which was placed in the doorway and sometimes secured with mortar or pebbles. While the Synoptic Gospels describe the stone being rolled, the Gospel of John uses a different verb, suggesting the stone was "removed" or "taken up," which some scholars argue reflects the more common practice of using a square stone. Therefore, while rock-cut tombs were common for the wealthy, the specific method of sealing with a large, rolling stone was an exceptional feature, reserved for royal or very wealthy families.

Jesus did, I believe rise from the dead. But he did not casually stroll out of a glorious large tomb, after rolling a giant rock aside ,??

Again, it says here

Matt 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

Which is not really here or there, because any shut door wouldnt have been much of a problem for him anyway

John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

 

[Muna]

Perhaps someone could shed some knowledgeable light on these matters ?

Many persons believe that Jesus was born in a cave, which is now a part of a very holy and well patronised church.

I however do not for a moment believe that anyone, in that time period irrespective of their station in life, would have been born in a cave . Where then would be the most logical place that Jesus would have been born in ? And why are people deceived into believing that such an extraordinary gentlemen was born in a clearly less than impoverished place of disgrace ?

Mine (KJV) says, "manger" but the same word is also used elsewhere by Jesus for "stall" (see below) I cannot say for sure, but according to some traditions he was born in a cave. Which is probably not here or there, because I think the reason there was no guest room available at the time was probably because it was crowded because of the tax decree in those days, as it says here

Luke.2​

[1] And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
[2] (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
[3] And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
[4] And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)
[5] To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
[6] And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
[7] And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

Just unfortunate timing, and yet perfect timing prophetically, even as Herod sought to know where the Christ would be born

Matt 2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.

Matt 2:5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, (Micah, below)

Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting

Returning to the word manger again.

Mine shows the word manger in Luke 2:7, 2:12, 2:16 (and so used 3 times) and used as stall by Jesus in Luke 13:15

Luke 13:15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, G5336 and lead him away to watering?

And to the shepherds it was declared

Luke 2:12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger G5336

 

[Aunty Jane]

Perhaps someone could shed some knowledgeable light on these matters ?

The “light” is in the Bible, which gives us the reasons, not just the events.

Many persons believe that Jesus was born in a cave, which is now a part of a very holy and well patronised church.

Nonsense....the accounts in Matthew and Luke give the details about Jesus birth and the reasons why he was born in humble circumstances.....shepherds were told that they would find the Christ child “wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger”....and that is where they found him....in a stable at the back of the Inn, because the registration that Caesar called meant that a man has to go back to the city of his birth, which in Joseph’s case was Bethlehem. But because his journey was in taking his heavily pregnant wife by donkey, when they finally arrived, there was no room left at the Inn, but taking pity on them, the Inn keeper allowed them use of his stable, where Mary gave birth in exactly the place where Scripture said the child would be born.

I however do not for a moment believe that anyone, in that time period irrespective of their station in life, would have been born in a cave . Where then would be the most logical place that Jesus would have been born in ? And why are people deceived into believing that such an extraordinary gentlemen was born in a clearly less than impoverished place of disgrace ?

Since God always spoke of the difficulty of a rich man gaining entry into his Kingdom, he never recommended the trappings of wealth....Jesus was raised in a modest Jewish household that was neither rich nor poverty stricken.
There is no mention of a cave for his birth, but there was a tomb provided for his burial which was not his. It was donated by a wealthy disciple.

My second issue is this.
If I am not mistaken Jesus was sadly crucified ,at a horrendous place called Golgotha ? This place is a barren hostile solid rock plateau, how do you bury a cross, carrying an average person's weight, into a rocky escarpment ? Why are people misled into believing he was crucified in such a disgracefull location. And where is the true location of his torment , suffering and Demise? You can only carry a cross of this size, a certain distance before you collapse from exhaustion. Perhaps that is the key to his place of crucification.

Jesus was put to death at the behest of the Pharisees, and Golgotha was a place used by the Romans for the execution of convicted criminals. Jesus was not carrying a cross but a single upright stake, which was also used by the Romans for execution along with other configurations..... it wasn’t the shape of the stake, (stauros) but the amount of suffering that this kind of death inflicted on those crucified....the Romans were a cruel people. This was a slow and painful death....hastened at the end by breaking the legs of the criminals so that they would die more quickly from suffocation. They did not break Jesus’ legs because he had already expired.

My third issue is this
After Jesus was taken down from the cross, he was lain out in a tomb that was sealed with a giant Stone ?
How many tombs of this style and size, actually could have existed in this time and place?

Wealthy Jews had tombs hewn from the rock as their final resting place. This one was donated so that Christ would have a decent burial place....not many expected him to be resurrected though. It was an unselfish gesture on the part of the man who donated it.

I suspect he was more than likely carefully and respectfully placed in a grave near where his crucification took place. My instincts tell me this was perhaps in an area that is now accessible , due to the relentless bombing from Israel of Palestine.

I don’t know what makes you think these things, but perhaps reading the gospels will clear up your misgivings?

Jesus did, I believe rise from the dead. But he did not casually stroll out of a glorious large tomb, after rolling a giant rock aside ,??

Yes, the tomb was empty when his disciples went to tend to his body for proper preparation for his burial.
No one saw him exit the tomb but when they arrived the stone was rolled away. Mary Magdalene saw a man standing nearby and assumed he was the gardener...only when Jesus spoke to her, did she realise it was her Lord. He told her to go and tell the others.

Although I would not go looking for his grave due to the recent huge number of landmines placed in the whole area by bloody Israel.

Scripture tells us that the body of Jesus was not to see corruption in the grave. His was a body made especially for him by God and he would never allow what the later church did to the remains of those that they considered “saints”. Relic worship has no place in Christianity. Christ’s human body is gone and nobody knows where. You will not find a grave.

Any comments appreciated. Maybe my ideas are I'll conceived and not based in fact ? But we all learn from asking questions.. cheers

I believe your ideas only need to be informed from the right source...and that is God’s word.
Read the gospels and see for yourself what happened....

 

[Muna]

And whats cool, is Jesus returned the tomb to Joseph in just three days

 

[Rockerduck]

Lazarus was also buried in a cave. Caves are very common in the middle east. Burial tombs weren't just for one, most of the time. These tombs were for families. After someone is laid in a tomb, after a good while, a family member would go in and gather the bones and put them in a box and put their name on it. The tomb was then ready for the next family member. Poorer people were sometimes burned or have stones piled on them.

Jesus was born in an animal stall. Don't think of these caves as small. These were large enough to build stalls in and keep animals out of the weather. They didn't build barns in those days, because caves are still common.

Jesus died on a Cross. Nowhere in any history book is a crucifixion described. We only have a gospel and only Jesus died on a cross. The two thieves are not described on a cross. It was common to nail criminal to a tree or pole, but again, there is no description of a crucifixion on a cross, except Jesus in the gospel. Which, I believe, Jesus is the only person ever to die on a Cross. Jesus said take up His Cross and follow me. Christianity is the Cross. The only purpose for a church is the Cross of Jesus.