The Blended Gospel of today

[Jake]

I gotta say . . . the deeper I study the Word . . . the more complex it becomes for me as it all ties together . . . the more I learn about so many topics covered in Scripture . . . the simpler it gets.

Everything I really needed to know I learned in Sunday School when I was 3 years old. But oh what a task to pound it through this 50 year old brain!

Love in Christ,
mark

A 3 year old gets the "feel really good version" of the gospel, not even a full dose of real milk - barely off formula. ;) How do you explain to a 3 year old they need pick up their cross and daily die to their self?

Are there not new believers, growing believers and mature believers? Are we all at the same level?

 

[mark s]

How do you explain to a 3 year old they need pick up their cross and daily die to their self?

JOY = Jesus first, others second, you last.

Are there not new believers, growing believers and mature believers? Are we all at the same level?

Unless you become as a child . . .

Seriously, of course there are different people with different maturities.

I think that people can over-complicate the simple.

Personally, I think that a test of true doctrine is how simply you can explain it from Scripture. Not, mind you how simply it is stated in Scripture. Some things are, as some have pointed out from time to time, not plainly stated. Others are very plainly stated.

But can you plainly state a doctrine, accounting for all relevant passages, exactly as they are written, without the need to gloss over any, or say, It says that, but it doesn't actually mean that.

I find in any number of debates over doctrine that this will wind up being the end of the matter, as one party says, This actually means such and such, reinterpreting a word or a phrase, allegorizing, spiritualizing, and so forth.

But on another level, I don't think doctinal knowledge is the best test of spiritual maturity.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Jake]

JOY = Jesus first, others second, you last.



Unless you become as a child . . .

Seriously, of course there are different people with different maturities.

I think that people can over-complicate the simple.

Personally, I think that a test of true doctrine is how simply you can explain it from Scripture. Not, mind you how simply it is stated in Scripture. Some things are, as some have pointed out from time to time, not plainly stated. Others are very plainly stated.

But can you plainly state a doctrine, accounting for all relevant passages, exactly as they are written, without the need to gloss over any, or say, It says that, but it doesn't actually mean that.

I find in any number of debates over doctrine that this will wind up being the end of the matter, as one party says, This actually means such and such, reinterpreting a word or a phrase, allegorizing, spiritualizing, and so forth.

But on another level, I don't think doctinal knowledge is the best test of spiritual maturity.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Faith in Christ is simple, like a child's, but what the OP is attempting to do is trying to simplify what the Bible teaches. He does not use the whole counsel of God, only Paul's letters. My attempt, ever so how feeble, is to point out the dangers in only picking and choosing particular passages to support a doctrine, and disregarding the rest of scripture. All of scripture fits all together, that is God's design.

The Bible is supposed to interpet us, not the other way around. Isn't there only one truth? Why 100's of denominations? It is because there were men who have "interpeted" the Bible, obviously a lack of the Holy Spirit, otherwise there would only be ONE denomination. Man's attempts at trying to figure out what scripture says has led many astray, we have an OP here who believes there is more than one gospel - it's a perfect example of my point!

I don't disagree if a person were to be tested in spiritual maturity, with a ton of knowledge, the person would necessarily pass the test, but we are allowed certain experiences from God, so that we might grow and become mature. Knowledge helps in that we know the goal that is set before us. God said people were destroyed because of their lack of knowledge.

We learn about God and His dealings through our own experiences, we share them with the brethren, in this way the mature believers are an example and mentor for the newer believers. We learn in this way, we are the Body having experiences, being taught by God, developing, growing and maturing, and sharing. Much better than arguing over a passage don't you think?

 

[mark s]

Personally, I think there is more of a reaction here to Richard's word choice than the point he is actually making.

Now, I think that Richard is overlooking something, but I also think that many people are missing his point also.

What Richard overlooks is this, it seems to me, is John's declaration, "Look! The Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world!" This is forgiveness of sins through Jesus' propitiary sacrifice.

What many people overlook, it seems to me, is this. Jesus lived and taught under the Old Covenant, and we do not. God made promises to Israel (Jacob's children) that were not made to gentiles, and Jesus came to proclaim the fulfillment of those promises.

Many people overlook that God had covenanted with Israel, and that had Israel kept the covenant, Israel would have been the head of the nations, the lamp on a stand, the city on the hill, and the gentiles would have then come to know God through Israel's witness.

But with Israel's rejection of Jesus, this was set aside, and the Gospel - the same Gospel of salvation that John proclaimed - went to the Gentiles.

During the 1000 year kingdom, Israel will be the head of the nations, and though Israel, the nations will have the opportunity to know God.

Yes, people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge.

But the greatest of these is Love.

In Christ,
Mark

 

[Strat]

The concept of self denial is simple,its application is as varied as life is,some folks are not satisfied with a complex application but wish to add the burden of a complex concept as well,the Bible says there are people who live to complicate everything because in doing so they get to hear themselves talk....the greatest satisfaction there is for some people.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes it does,because it takes me and my vanity out of the way and allows God to do what only he can do.....does it make me perfect in the sense that i never sin in thought word or deed by commision or omission,no it doesn't,no more so than many words,philosophies and interpretations make others perfect....but my sins are forgiven and i am cleansed from all unrightousness

The simplicity in Christ is not based on remaining as we were....but on living through Christ who makes all things possible. You should not confuse a simplistic understanding with a simple one. Those who walk in Christ cannot sin...very simple.

JOY = Jesus first, others second, you last.



Unless you become as a child . . .

Seriously, of course there are different people with different maturities.

I think that people can over-complicate the simple.

Personally, I think that a test of true doctrine is how simply you can explain it from Scripture. Not, mind you how simply it is stated in Scripture. Some things are, as some have pointed out from time to time, not plainly stated. Others are very plainly stated.

But can you plainly state a doctrine, accounting for all relevant passages, exactly as they are written, without the need to gloss over any, or say, It says that, but it doesn't actually mean that.

I find in any number of debates over doctrine that this will wind up being the end of the matter, as one party says, This actually means such and such, reinterpreting a word or a phrase, allegorizing, spiritualizing, and so forth.

But on another level, I don't think doctinal knowledge is the best test of spiritual maturity.

Love in Christ,
Mark

A child has no problem with being dead to sin...only the habitually carnal older ones cannot believe in the power of the gospel.

An accurate understanding is that Jesus died for our sins,that none of us are perfect...even here in cyberspace where it appears to be easy to think you are,alot of what is said here is just complexity for complexity's sake and people whio like to see their words in text....the true gospel is simple.I will take the gospel of the peasnat over the gospel of the so called and often self appointed Bible scholar any day,those who are always saying things like"this is what it REALY means" and tell people they need to be Greek scholars and Hebrew scholars in order to be saved as if nothing in God's word can be taken at face value...the same people who have nothing to offer people in times of need or distress but worn out piuos platitudes and lofty high sounding words that they puff themselves up with.

The word"knowledge" simply means to know something,the Bible is knowledge both upfront and direct and that which the holy spirit teaches us and the countless millions of books written by men over the centuries has resulted in denominations which are not Biblical,divisions which are not Biblical and radical interpertations which lead millions to Hell....yes i know what the Bible says about knowledge,i also know what it says about men and their vain imaginations.

Those imaginings are all about what people can do without being IN Christ. So the modern believer assumes he will never stop sinning...because he is not yet IN Christ. But he claims to be! THIS is the confusion brought on by false claims....simplistic claims that have no power. Look at what John says...

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

But this is too simple...

 

[Jake]

Personally, I think there is more of a reaction here to Richard's word choice than the point he is actually making.

Now, I think that Richard is overlooking something, but I also think that many people are missing his point also.

What Richard overlooks is this, it seems to me, is John's declaration, "Look! The Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world!" This is forgiveness of sins through Jesus' propitiary sacrifice.

What many people overlook, it seems to me, is this. Jesus lived and taught under the Old Covenant, and we do not. God made promises to Israel (Jacob's children) that were not made to gentiles, and Jesus came to proclaim the fulfillment of those promises.

Many people overlook that God had covenanted with Israel, and that had Israel kept the covenant, Israel would have been the head of the nations, the lamp on a stand, the city on the hill, and the gentiles would have then come to know God through Israel's witness.

But with Israel's rejection of Jesus, this was set aside, and the Gospel - the same Gospel of salvation that John proclaimed - went to the Gentiles.

During the 1000 year kingdom, Israel will be the head of the nations, and though Israel, the nations will have the opportunity to know God.

Yes, people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge.

But the greatest of these is Love.

In Christ,
Mark

Richard's point does not involve overlooking (people overlook spelling errors ;)) it is about ignoring God's Word and teaching something completely different than His intention. Is it really that simple to believe there are several gospels? It teaches people that it's ok to sin, that there are no consequences for our sin, obedience is inconsequential - this is the result of Richard's "overlooking" the gospel.

Jesus may have been under the old, but He taught the new to ALL believers......not a select few.

 

[Strat]

The simplicity in Christ is not based on remaining as we were....but on living through Christ who makes all things possible. You should not confuse a simplistic understanding with a simple one. Those who walk in Christ cannot sin...very simple.



A child has no problem with being dead to sin...only the habitually carnal older ones cannot believe in the power of the gospel.



Those imaginings are all about what people can do without being IN Christ. So the modern believer assumes he will never stop sinning...because he is not yet IN Christ. But he claims to be! THIS is the confusion brought on by false claims....simplistic claims that have no power. Look at what John says...

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

But this is too simple...

No Christian forum or gathering of Christians would be complete without somebody claiming to be perfect and sinless....pride is a sin.

 

[Episkopos]

No Christian forum or gathering of Christians would be complete without somebody claiming to be perfect and sinless....pride is a sin.

LOL! Every site needs a champion of the power of the flesh! :)

Here are some verses that SEEM to back up what you are saying...???

"My grace seems insufficient for you"
"Behold all things are same old same old"
"How shall we stop sinning who are dead in sin?"
"I can do very little through Christ who barely empowers me to do a thing"
"He who is born again can't help but sin"
"With Christ very little seems possible"
"walk in the Spirit and you will still do the lusts of the flesh"
"To him that is unable to overcome...."
"It is no longer Christ who lives in Me but I that live (and sin)"
"He who says he abides in Christ will never walk even as He walked"

etc...etc...

 

[veteran]

LOL! Every site needs a champion of the power of the flesh! :)

Here are some verses that SEEM to back up what you are saying...???

"My grace seems insufficient for you"
"Behold all things are same old same old"
"How shall we stop sinning who are dead in sin?"
"I can do very little through Christ who barely empowers me to do a thing"
"He who is born again can't help but sin"
"With Christ very little seems possible"
"walk in the Spirit and you will still do the lusts of the flesh"
"To him that is unable to overcome...."
"It is no longer Christ who lives in Me but I that live (and sin)"
"He who says he abides in Christ will never walk even as He walked"

etc...etc...

Now that's original!

 

[Strat]

LOL! Every site needs a champion of the power of the flesh! :)

Here are some verses that SEEM to back up what you are saying...???

"My grace seems insufficient for you"
"Behold all things are same old same old"
"How shall we stop sinning who are dead in sin?"
"I can do very little through Christ who barely empowers me to do a thing"
"He who is born again can't help but sin"
"With Christ very little seems possible"
"walk in the Spirit and you will still do the lusts of the flesh"
"To him that is unable to overcome...."
"It is no longer Christ who lives in Me but I that live (and sin)"
"He who says he abides in Christ will never walk even as He walked"

etc...etc...

So you are perfect....come on take a bow...let's hear it for the worlds only perfect person

Now that's original!

Actually delusions of grandeur are not that original

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No Christian forum or gathering of Christians would be complete without somebody claiming to be perfect and sinless....pride is a sin.

LOL! Every site needs a champion of the power of the flesh! :)

I wonder if you two are even talking about the same thing, or are rather talking past each other. I bear witness in my heart that you both have good spiritual knowledge and godly qualities.

Strat has/does obviously known/know a lot of pain in his life. IMO, no man who has not known great pain and suffering has the capacity to judge one who has. The power of Christ gives the ability to endure life's constrictions in hope; and to forgive. I think Strat has a handle on this.

I'm not always sure about what Episkopos teaches. His teachings seem fairly pure, but also detached from the reality of suffering. From my experience, it is easy to walk in a feeling of sinless purity when no suffering is involved.

So the question needs to be asked, What is sinless purity for sinful man? Is suffering and feeling the pains of being a wretched sinner while trusting in God a perfect walk? Or is a perfect walk living in a state of mind in which one has no awareness of his sin?

This may not accurately portray what I'm trying to say, but doggone it, I'm an imperfect sinner.

 

[Episkopos]

So you are perfect....come on take a bow...let's hear it for the worlds only perfect person




Actually delusions of grandeur are not that original

You are mocking the gospel not me. You are not understanding that the gospel is not like a political promise that has no power. You should look into what being born as a new creation REALLY means rather than just accept a salvation scheme cobbled together from various verses that deny the power of Christ.

The perfect walk is to walk in a perfect saviour. Have you never read of walking in the Spirit?

I wonder if you two are even talking about the same thing, or are rather talking past each other. I bear witness in my heart that you both have good spiritual knowledge and godly qualities.

Strat has/does obviously known/know a lot of pain in his life. IMO, no man who has not known great pain and suffering has the capacity to judge one who has. The power of Christ gives the ability to endure life's constrictions in hope; and to forgive. I think Strat has a handle on this.

I'm not always sure about what Episkopos teaches. His teachings seem fairly pure, but also detached from the reality of suffering. From my experience, it is easy to walk in a feeling of sinless purity when no suffering is involved.

So the question needs to be asked, What is sinless purity for sinful man? Is suffering and feeling the pains of being a wretched sinner while trusting in God a perfect walk? Or is a perfect walk living in a state of mind in which one has no awareness of his sin?

This may not accurately portray what I'm trying to say, but doggone it, I'm an imperfect sinner.

Actually it only through suffering and a full surrender to God that one can enter into Christ and walk FROM THERE. From where He is (Zion). Why have so few experienced this? Christ is in Zion and we join Him there when we walk in the Spirit. I try pointing out these basic verses that show the marvelous power of grace that is available if we will just believe and surrender....but the flesh and unbelief are just too strong in many so they twist the word and ignore the basic teachings to support a defeat in the flesh. Sincerity does not equal truth. Many "believers" have no knowledge of God....they just read the bible and ignore the impossible (for the fleshly man) stuff.

Now that's original!

But this will be ignored as with all the verses that contradict the man pleasing salvation scheme. I just wish people would be honest and declare the bible to be "impossible" rather than accusing the brethren who have believed and seek to walk in the power of the truth.

ALL things are possible in Christ...but very few actually have believed Christ and enter INTO Christ. Mockery is seen as a viable alternative to doing this in some.

Jud_1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Jer_15:17 I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced; I sat alone because of thy hand: for thou hast filled me with indignation.

 

[Strat]

I wonder if you two are even talking about the same thing, or are rather talking past each other. I bear witness in my heart that you both have good spiritual knowledge and godly qualities.

Strat has/does obviously known/know a lot of pain in his life. IMO, no man who has not known great pain and suffering has the capacity to judge one who has. The power of Christ gives the ability to endure life's constrictions in hope; and to forgive. I think Strat has a handle on this.

I'm not always sure about what Episkopos teaches. His teachings seem fairly pure, but also detached from the reality of suffering. From my experience, it is easy to walk in a feeling of sinless purity when no suffering is involved.

So the question needs to be asked, What is sinless purity for sinful man? Is suffering and feeling the pains of being a wretched sinner while trusting in God a perfect walk? Or is a perfect walk living in a state of mind in which one has no awareness of his sin?

This may not accurately portray what I'm trying to say, but doggone it, I'm an imperfect sinner.

I have dealt with this kind before,a close examination of every aspect of their life would reveal their imperfections...its just somebody trying to puff themselves up in cyberspaqce.

You are mocking the gospel not me. You are not understanding that the gospel is not like a political promise that has no power. You should look into what being born as a new creation REALLY means rather than just accept a salvation scheme cobbled together from various verses that deny the power of Christ.

The perfect walk is to walk in a perfect saviour. Have you never read of walking in the Spirit?



Actually it only through suffering and a full surrender to God that one can enter into Christ and walk FROM THERE. From where He is (Zion). Why have so few experienced this? Christ is in Zion and we join Him there when we walk in the Spirit. I try pointing out these basic verses that show the marvelous power of grace that is available if we will just believe and surrender....but the flesh and unbelief are just too strong in many so they twist the word and ignore the basic teachings to support a defeat in the flesh. Sincerity does not equal truth. Many "believers" have no knowledge of God....they just read the bible and ignore the impossible (for the fleshly man) stuff.



But this will be ignored as with all the verses that contradict the man pleasing salvation scheme. I just wish people would be honest and declare the bible to be "impossible" rather than accusing the brethren who have believed and seek to walk in the power of the truth.

ALL things are possible in Christ...but very few actually have believed Christ and enter INTO Christ. Mockery is seen as a viable alternative to doing this in some.

Jud_1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Jer_15:17 I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced; I sat alone because of thy hand: for thou hast filled me with indignation.

Why not answer the question....are YOU perfect ? quote all the scripture you want....but what about you ????

 

[Episkopos]

I have dealt with this kind before,a close examination of every aspect of their life would reveal their imperfections...its just somebody trying to puff themselves up in cyberspaqce.



Why not answer the question....are YOU perfect ? quote all the scripture you want....but what about you ????

You are speaking from a carnal perspective.

I am IN Christ...who is my perfection. IF I remain in Christ then I cannot sin. But this goes for everyone and anyone...no one is unique. It is not about our own performance, but about our faith and surrender to Christ. So we can abide in Christ and HIS perfection for the length of time that our maturity allows. I have not yet attained to living ONLY from Christ always.

The longest that I have remained, however has been a few years. Even Paul said that he had not attained to a constant walk in Christ...but even if I had attained to that place...pride is waiting at the door...so we are always to say...we have not yet attained...since we are not yet finished the race. So if you were truly a disciple you would not be tempting a brother. You would rather fear the Lord and believe the gospel.

 

[Strat]

You are speaking from a carnal perspective.

I am IN Christ...who is my perfection. IF I remain in Christ then I cannot sin. But this goes for everyone and anyone...no one is unique. It is not about our own performance, but about our faith and surrender to Christ. So we can abide in Christ and HIS perfection for the length of time that our maturity allows. I have not yet attained to living ONLY from Christ always.

The longest that I have remained, however has been a few years. Even Paul said that he had not attained to a constant walk in Christ...but even if I had attained to that place...pride is waiting at the door...so we are always to say...we have not yet attained...since we are not yet finished the race. So if you were truly a disciple you would not be tempting a brother. You would rather fear the Lord and believe the gospel.

So are you saying you are perfect sometimes and not others,well so am i and so is anyone who seeks to follow Jesus...if you are saying that the perfection of Jesus is credited to us then we agree....i am not nor will i ever be perfect in and of myself

 

[Jake]

There is no way a person can be fully mature without Christ, Christ is the overcomer who lives in us - we are overcomers only because of Christ, that is why we have to remain in Christ. We can do ALL things through Christ. We decrease so He can increase - when we have decreased completely - then we have reached the full measure of Christ.

Ephesians 4:13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.