The case for a Just War

[atpollard]

Now you have my scriptural evidence, what do you have?

• Matthew 22:21 [NKJV] 21 They said to Him, "Caesar's." And He said to them, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."
• Mark 12:17 [NKJV] 17 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they marveled at Him.
• Luke 20:25 [NKJV] 25 And He said to them, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

We are under the new covenant sir. We are no longer under law. If you want to convince me it is acceptable to God that His people war, then give appropriate scriptures that were written to us under the new covenant. We no longer offer animal sacrifices either, but quoting the law on that would not be evidence for us Christians.

"And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?”
So they said, “Nothing.”
Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.”
So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” Luke 22:35-38
Jesus first sent them out with nothing - nothing to be stolen, nothing for them to be killed for. But then He sent them out with supplies, money, things that could be taken from them and and things that thieves would kill for, so He said, bring a sword to protect selves and their mission.

Since the beginning, evil needed to be restrained, stopped and in some cases of life and death situations, God allows killing to defend yourself. The Bible does not say, "Thou shalt not kill", the correct translation for that word is "murder". Murder has a different motive then self defense or in some cases righteous war. We have police that kill people in gun fights if citizens lives are threatened, it is legal and it is ordained by God to put down evil and stop it.
Besides all that, we have a spiritual war going on continuously since the beginning. Michael, the archangel, will stand up and fight a righteous war against Satan and his demonic horde and all the army of the angels will battle as well. (Rev. 12:7).
Until evil is put down and Satan and his horde locked up, we are all given rights by Jesus to protect ourselves, our families and our property.
God formed governments with armies and police. Did He tell them to put down their swords and just carry the Bible? What good would police be if when they got a call about a shoot out at a bank, with hostages if they were told to just bring their Bibles, prayers ... turn the cheek when the criminals shoot at them and shout out prayers and forgiveness before the criminals target their cheeks and blow their heads off. Yeah right.
War against evil will continue until Christ returns with the sword that comes out of His mouth and destroys probably up to five billion evil people and locks up Satan.

 

[Enoch111]

I do not think that scripture clearly states that Christians are never to fight in a national war.

This is true. But Christians are engaged in a spiritual war with the evil spirits and evil angels and that is the real war. What we are seeing worldwide today is demonic warfare by governments against the people who put them in office (or those who simply usurped their positions through fraud). It is demons who have taken control of all the petty tyrants who have targeted churches and Christians, as well as the general public. This is leading up to worldwide Satanic control in a way that has never been seen.

 

[atpollard]

This is true. But Christians are engaged in a spiritual war with the evil spirits and evil angels and that is the real war. What we are seeing worldwide today is demonic warfare by governments against the people who put them in office (or those who simply usurped their positions through fraud). It is demons who have taken control of all the petty tyrants who have targeted churches and Christians, as well as the general public. This is leading up to worldwide Satanic control in a way that has never been seen.

Perhaps, but one lesson from Job is that EVIL, like the ocean, may go "this far and no further" by the restraining command of God.
So if God is moving the shore, it must be for our good and HIS glory. [Job 42:10-17] and [Romans 8:28-39]

 

[Curtis]

What was the purpose of the 2 swords? They represented provision sir, not war. Jesus was soon to be executed, and when one of them was used in aggression, Jesus made the point that they were not to be used that way. They were provided to show that they were not to be used in warfare, but soon they would have to provide for themselves again. The swords represented that. Other than that one act of aggression against the Roman authorities, do you have any example of a weapon being used against another?

I don’t know what provision you mean. No one hunts for game with a sword. Swords and guns are used either in self defense, or attacking to take something from someone, as in war or theft.
It’s evident they were to get the swords for self defense.
Since the whole reason Jesus came was to die on a cross for our sins, it is blatantly obvious that when they came to arrest Jesus, that wasn’t the time for self defense, so that incident is irrelevant to the fact that we are allowed to defend ourselves, and there’s no reason to get swords for the apostles other than self defense.

The fact Jesus commended a Roman soldier for his great faith, without rebuking him in the least for being a soldier, nor telling him it was wrong, refutes the pacifism of the JWs.

He certainly had a sword, and it wasn’t “for provision”, nor was he rebuked for it.

 

[amadeus]

You can get off track by assuming the KJV means what you think it does, since language changed so much in 4 centuries, and making doctrine out of it.

Here’s what the passage meant in the original koine Greek:

Rev 10:5 And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven

Rev 10:6 and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay,

Rev 10:7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

There would be no more delay in fulfilling the mystery of God - not that time itself was stopped.

Shalom Aleichem.

That is simply according to another translator, is it not? Which translator is correct?

Here it is according to Martin Luther:

"Und der Engel, den ich sah stehen auf dem Meer und der Erde, hob seine Hand gen Himmel
und schwur bei dem Lebendigen von Ewigkeit zu Ewigkeit, der den Himmel geschaffen hat und was darin ist, und die Erde und was darin ist, und das Meer und was darin ist, daß hinfort keine Zeit mehr sein soll;
sondern in den Tagen der Stimme des siebenten Engels, wenn er posaunen wird, soll vollendet werden das Geheimnis Gottes, wie er hat verkündigt seinen Knechten, den Propheten." Rev 10:5-7

Here it is according to Reina Valera Revisada:

"Y el ángel que vi estar sobre el mar y sobre la tierra, levantó su mano al cielo,
juró por el que vive para siempre jamás, que ha criado el cielo y las cosas que están en él, y la tierra y las cosas que están en ella, y el mar y las cosas que están en él, que el tiempo no será más.
Pero en los días de la voz del séptimo ángel, cuando él comenzare á tocar la trompeta, el misterio de Dios será consumado, como él lo anunció á sus siervos los profetas" Rev 10:5-7

Without being led by the Holy Spirit, who can be certain as what God's message is? I do not know koine Greek, nor Hebrew nor Aramaic, but I do read my Bibles regularly in both German and Spanish. Why should I trust my own translation of anyone else's translation?

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding" Prov 3:5

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

 

[atpollard]

That is simply according to another translator, is it not? Which translator is correct?

When confronted with such questions, I rely on [Proverbs 11:14] "Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety." and consult as many translations as possible.

 

[amadeus]

When confronted with such questions, I rely on [Proverbs 11:14] "Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety." and consult as many translations as possible.

While I understand what you are saying and at times I do that as well, my point was that ultimately God's message, if it is to be revealed to us, is revealed by the Holy Ghost.

 

[atpollard]

While I understand what you are saying and at times I do that as well, my point was that ultimately God's message, if it is to be revealed to us, is revealed by the Holy Ghost.

Yup.
All just meaningless words on a page until God removes the blinders.

1 Corinthians 2:14 [NKJV] But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Were there any carts driven by Christians?
You are making an argument from silence fallacy.

Sure some Christians had carts, we have cars today. What is your point?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Let's just see for ourselves if that statement is true:

2 Corinthians 10:1-6 [NKJV]
1 Now I, Paul, myself am pleading with you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ--who in presence am lowly among you, but being absent am bold toward you. 2 But I beg you that when I am present I may not be bold with that confidence by which I intend to be bold against some, who think of us as if we walked according to the flesh. 3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

Ummm ... Paul is saying two things.

1. Christians DO WAGE WAR
2. We do not fight SPIRITUAL battles with CARNAL weapons.

What it DOES NOT SAY is 'point blank' (or any other range) that "Jesus' followers will not participate in war".
It says Jesus followers WAGE WAR against

• "every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God"
• "being ready to punish all disobedience" (sin)

using SPIRITUAL weapons against SPIRITUAL enemies ... (and PHYSICAL weapons against PHYSICAL enemies? ... the verse is silent.)

Yes sir, our warfare is spiritual, not carnal. Christians do not raise their hands in war against the authorities of this world, thus taking a stand against God Himself Rom 13:1,2

 

[Robert Gwin]

You cannot chastise me for Ecclesiastes and refuse to address it by rejecting all of the OT and then selectively ask me to view only YOUR FAVORITE OT verses. You set the NEW TESTAMENT ONLY ground rules. Isaiah and Micah are as irrelevant at Ecclesiastes.

Chastise? The Bible sets the standards sir, you choose to obey or reject. It is very true that under the old covenant, we were to battle with others. Keep in mind those were sanctioned wars, and when we participated in them when Jehovah did not tell us to, we fared badly. Those of us under the new covenant, do not take a stand against others, be it political or not. We will simply have to disagree.

 

[Robert Gwin]

• Matthew 22:21 [NKJV] 21 They said to Him, "Caesar's." And He said to them, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."
• Mark 12:17 [NKJV] 17 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they marveled at Him.
• Luke 20:25 [NKJV] 25 And He said to them, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

Exactly!

 

[Robert Gwin]

"And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?”
So they said, “Nothing.”
Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.”
So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” Luke 22:35-38
Jesus first sent them out with nothing - nothing to be stolen, nothing for them to be killed for. But then He sent them out with supplies, money, things that could be taken from them and and things that thieves would kill for, so He said, bring a sword to protect selves and their mission.

Since the beginning, evil needed to be restrained, stopped and in some cases of life and death situations, God allows killing to defend yourself. The Bible does not say, "Thou shalt not kill", the correct translation for that word is "murder". Murder has a different motive then self defense or in some cases righteous war. We have police that kill people in gun fights if citizens lives are threatened, it is legal and it is ordained by God to put down evil and stop it.
Besides all that, we have a spiritual war going on continuously since the beginning. Michael, the archangel, will stand up and fight a righteous war against Satan and his demonic horde and all the army of the angels will battle as well. (Rev. 12:7).
Until evil is put down and Satan and his horde locked up, we are all given rights by Jesus to protect ourselves, our families and our property.
God formed governments with armies and police. Did He tell them to put down their swords and just carry the Bible? What good would police be if when they got a call about a shoot out at a bank, with hostages if they were told to just bring their Bibles, prayers ... turn the cheek when the criminals shoot at them and shout out prayers and forgiveness before the criminals target their cheeks and blow their heads off. Yeah right.
War against evil will continue until Christ returns with the sword that comes out of His mouth and destroys probably up to five billion evil people and locks up Satan.

Yes sir, it will be Jesus leading the way in the battle, not his earthly followers. Perhaps you can justify police, as Christians do things through the courts, but one could never justify taking a stand against a governmental authority according to Rom 13:1,2 you would be taking a stand against God. I think I explained it quite well, reasoning not only from the scriptures but from worldly historians as well. You are of course free to do as you please, clearly your way is unsuccessful, but among us Christians there is no war. Very little need for police, although on occasion we do have a need as we are still a work in progress. All of us are sinners for sure.

 

[atpollard]

Sure some Christians had carts, we have cars today. What is your point?

Verse, please ... that is my point.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I don’t know what provision you mean. No one hunts for game with a sword. Swords and guns are used either in self defense, or attacking to take something from someone, as in war or theft.
It’s evident they were to get the swords for self defense.
Since the whole reason Jesus came was to die on a cross for our sins, it is blatantly obvious that when they came to arrest Jesus, that wasn’t the time for self defense, so that incident is irrelevant to the fact that we are allowed to defend ourselves, and there’s no reason to get swords for the apostles other than self defense.

The fact Jesus commended a Roman soldier for his great faith, without rebuking him in the least for being a soldier, nor telling him it was wrong, refutes the pacifism of the JWs.

He certainly had a sword, and it wasn’t “for provision”, nor was he rebuked for it.

We have beat our swords into plowshares sir. Without an example in the Bible, we must be obedient to the teachings given to Christians, it is not an option.

 

[atpollard]

Yes sir, our warfare is spiritual, not carnal. Christians do not raise their hands in war against the authorities of this world, thus taking a stand against God Himself Rom 13:1,2

"being ready to punish all disobedience" ... carnal and spiritual
Matthew 25:34-40 ... spiritual warfare using carnal weapons.
Mark 12:17 ... doesn't say "except military service"

 

[atpollard]

We have beat our swords into plowshares sir.

No we have not (Luke 22:36) ... that is for the FINAL kingdom when all enemies are cast into the lake of fire and Jesus rules in complete peace.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Verse, please ... that is my point.

(2 Samuel 6:3) . . .However, they placed the Ark of the true God on a new wagon to transport it from the house of A·binʹa·dab. . .

Yes sir, they had carts, but China has tea as well, so what is your point, are you able to give a Biblical example of any Christian participating in any carnal war? No! Why not? Because Christians do not participate in carnal warfare, our weapons are not fleshly, rather we are in a spiritual war, overturning strongly entrenched things. That is what the Bible really teaches AT.

 

[Robert Gwin]

"being ready to punish all disobedience" ... carnal and spiritual
Matthew 25:34-40 ... spiritual warfare using carnal weapons.
Mark 12:17 ... doesn't say "except military service"

Interesting passage you use to support war, seems to say exactly opposite, at any rate it is a good passage as it is what a person is actually judged on, the support of Jesus' brothers in their assignment.