The case for a Just War

[atpollard]

I didn't think you would be able to, but it is a relatively easy topic to understand. The Bible leaves on room for doubt on it so if you decide that you would like to see what the Bible really teaches on the subject, i would certainly be glad to assist you with it At. Thank you for your response, and hope that you will be willing to investigate it further.

Are Christians called by scripture to do NOTHING to stop evil?

That really seems to be the heart of the exegesis of verses that Christians are NEVER to take up arms in physical opposition.
So how far does that really extend?

• If a stranger enters my home to do harm, should I "turn the other cheek" and allow him to enter my daughter's bedroom or use the .38 S&W to stop him?

• Is it wrong for a Christian to be a POLICE OFFICER and to wield the "Sword of Cesare"?

• Was it right or wrong for the Christian nations to do nothing and allow the Ottoman Empire to invade and exterminate the Christian Armenians to purge Christianity from lands that Muslims desired?

I look forward to your "easy to understand" guidance from the Bible on dealing with evil and violence, because ... quite honestly ... I personally find it a hard line to draw with easy answers.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Are Christians called by scripture to do NOTHING to stop evil?

That really seems to be the heart of the exegesis of verses that Christians are NEVER to take up arms in physical opposition.
So how far does that really extend?

• If a stranger enters my home to do harm, should I "turn the other cheek" and allow him to enter my daughter's bedroom or use the .38 S&W to stop him?

• Is it wrong for a Christian to be a POLICE OFFICER and to wield the "Sword of Cesare"?

• Was it right or wrong for the Christian nations to do nothing and allow the Ottoman Empire to invade and exterminate the Christian Armenians to purge Christianity from lands that Muslims desired?

I look forward to your "easy to understand" guidance from the Bible on dealing with evil and violence, because ... quite honestly ... I personally find it a hard line to draw with easy answers.

That is simple sir, the Kingdom coming is the only thing that will end evil and violence. But if you want to discuss the Bible's viewpoint on whether a Christian will participate in war, I would be more than happy to do so. Your or my opinion is irrelevant, what does the Bible teach about it?

 

[atpollard]

Your or my opinion is irrelevant, what does the Bible teach about it?

That is what I asked you.
Since you want me to start, I offer this lesson from scripture:

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

1 To everything there is a season,
A time for every purpose under heaven:
2 A time to be born,
And a time to die;
A time to plant,
And a time to pluck what is planted;
3 A time to kill,
And a time to heal;
A time to break down,
And a time to build up;
4 A time to weep,
And a time to laugh;
A time to mourn,
And a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones,
And a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace,
And a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to gain,
And a time to lose;
A time to keep,
And a time to throw away;
7 A time to tear,
And a time to sew;
A time to keep silence,
And a time to speak;
8 A time to love,
And a time to hate;
A time of war,
And a time of peace.​

 

[Addy]

and I guess there is a need for WISDOM as to which season we are in.

Are Christians called by scripture to do NOTHING to stop evil?

That is a loaded question... LOL

I'm not sure how I would handle the scenario of someone breaking in and threatening to harm my family? If it was just me... I would tend to be more passive... If it was my daughter... I can't even begin to comprehend that action... It would be torturous...

The issue of the Muslims taking over the land... well that was a sneaky one... overtaking the nation by population.. We did not see that coming... because as Christians we were being tolerant... to this day... many Christians do not understand that Islam's agenda is to over take the world and kill the Jews... Christians and all others who will not convert. AT this point.... it is too late.

The police officer... I feel he/she is in the same category as those soldiers sent to war... they see and experience horrific events... they are forced to take severe and brutal actions... I believe all this is pardoned.. but sadly... the effects of violence to mass proportions is something that is left with the soldier forever... It must be the same for police officers who have to make split second choices... and sometime have theirs and others lives threatened.

Not much of an answer... but it was honest.

 

[atpollard]

That is a loaded question... LOL

guilty as charged.

His position was as emphatic as it was vague about its Biblical support. So it needed challenging.
I do not think that scripture clearly states that Christians are never to fight in a national war.

• To suggest that it was the duty of Messianic Jews to quietly lay down and die during the Seven Day War when Israel was attacked does not seem like a Biblical mandate to me.
• Nor were the Armenians called to die without offering any resistance.
  
• Nor was it wrong to go to war to end slavery.

So I will need more than “the Bible says” without even a specific verse quoted.

 

[Addy]

@atpollard ... Well... you just charge away... My answer did not include scripture... I'm more of a speak from the heart kind of gal.

 

[atpollard]

@atpollard ... Well... you just charge away... My answer did not include scripture... I'm more of a speak from the heart kind of gal.

Charging is what we “bulls in a China shop” do best.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Are Christians called by scripture to do NOTHING to stop evil?

That really seems to be the heart of the exegesis of verses that Christians are NEVER to take up arms in physical opposition.
So how far does that really extend?

• If a stranger enters my home to do harm, should I "turn the other cheek" and allow him to enter my daughter's bedroom or use the .38 S&W to stop him?

• Is it wrong for a Christian to be a POLICE OFFICER and to wield the "Sword of Cesare"?

• Was it right or wrong for the Christian nations to do nothing and allow the Ottoman Empire to invade and exterminate the Christian Armenians to purge Christianity from lands that Muslims desired?

I look forward to your "easy to understand" guidance from the Bible on dealing with evil and violence, because ... quite honestly ... I personally find it a hard line to draw with easy answers.

THE Holy Spirit is the restrainer of evil. God's purpose in forming governments in nations is to protect people, their property and their rights. We have laws, police, courts with judges to enforce them. Our government was based on Biblical principles - the best forms of government are. Privately it is our right to protect ourselves and family and need to take action when a crime against us is committed since police are not readily available.
Civilization would be barbarian without what Christ has brought to the world. Prior to that, the Ten Commandments were given to man. Prior to that, man has been aware of good and evil and the difference and so there was always a moral code given to us by God, that we should choose what is right and we have had to fight for it for 6000 years.
That said, love your enemy is a challenge. This rises above an eye for an eye. "Vengeance is mine, says the LORD". No one really gets away with anything in life. God will judge them. But we can't just stand there if they break into our homes to rape, pillage and plunder. Shall we stand their passively? Say a quick prayer and take em out!

 

[Curtis]

That is what I asked you.
Since you want me to start, I offer this lesson from scripture:

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

1 To everything there is a season,
A time for every purpose under heaven:
2 A time to be born,
And a time to die;
A time to plant,
And a time to pluck what is planted;
3 A time to kill,
And a time to heal;
A time to break down,
And a time to build up;
4 A time to weep,
And a time to laugh;
A time to mourn,
And a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones,
And a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace,
And a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to gain,
And a time to lose;
A time to keep,
And a time to throw away;
7 A time to tear,
And a time to sew;
A time to keep silence,
And a time to speak;
8 A time to love,
And a time to hate;
A time of war,
And a time of peace.​

JWs love to quote the OT to prove their doctrines, but they don’t seem to like that passage, that refutes their pacifism.

 

[Curtis]

Are Christians called by scripture to do NOTHING to stop evil?

That really seems to be the heart of the exegesis of verses that Christians are NEVER to take up arms in physical opposition.
So how far does that really extend?

• If a stranger enters my home to do harm, should I "turn the other cheek" and allow him to enter my daughter's bedroom or use the .38 S&W to stop him?

• Is it wrong for a Christian to be a POLICE OFFICER and to wield the "Sword of Cesare"?

• Was it right or wrong for the Christian nations to do nothing and allow the Ottoman Empire to invade and exterminate the Christian Armenians to purge Christianity from lands that Muslims desired?

I look forward to your "easy to understand" guidance from the Bible on dealing with evil and violence, because ... quite honestly ... I personally find it a hard line to draw with easy answers.

God sent Israel out to fight wars in the old testament.

Jesus commended a Roman centurion for his great faith, and didn’t say one word against his being a soldier.

Jesus told the apostles to get swords because He was leaving them to ascend to heaven.

Romans 13 says rulers are servants of god who uses a sword against evil doers:

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,

Rom 13:4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

 

[Robert Gwin]

That is what I asked you.
Since you want me to start, I offer this lesson from scripture:

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

1 To everything there is a season,
A time for every purpose under heaven:
2 A time to be born,
And a time to die;
A time to plant,
And a time to pluck what is planted;
3 A time to kill,
And a time to heal;
A time to break down,
And a time to build up;
4 A time to weep,
And a time to laugh;
A time to mourn,
And a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones,
And a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace,
And a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to gain,
And a time to lose;
A time to keep,
And a time to throw away;
7 A time to tear,
And a time to sew;
A time to keep silence,
And a time to speak;
8 A time to love,
And a time to hate;
A time of war,
And a time of peace.​

We are under the new covenant sir. We are no longer under law. If you want to convince me it is acceptable to God that His people war, then give appropriate scriptures that were written to us under the new covenant. We no longer offer animal sacrifices either, but quoting the law on that would not be evidence for us Christians.

 

[amadeus]

That is what I asked you.
Since you want me to start, I offer this lesson from scripture:

Ecclesiastes 3:1,3,8

1 To everything there is a season,
A time for every purpose under heaven:

3 A time to kill,
And a time to heal;

8 ...
And a time to hate;
A time of war,
And a time of peace.​

Until we arrive to this point, perhaps?
Re 10:5 And the angel... sware by him that liveth for ever and ever... that there should be time no longer:" Rev 10:5-6

Out of time! For us, that is not yet!

 

[Curtis]

Until we arrive to this point, perhaps?
Re 10:5 And the angel... sware by him that liveth for ever and ever... that there should be time no longer:" Rev 10:5-6

Out of time! For us, that is not yet!

You can get off track by assuming the KJV means what you think it does, since language changed so much in 4 centuries, and making doctrine out of it.

Here’s what the passage meant in the original koine Greek:

Rev 10:5 And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven

Rev 10:6 and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay,

Rev 10:7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

There would be no more delay in fulfilling the mystery of God - not that time itself was stopped.

Shalom Aleichem.

 

[Curtis]

We are under the new covenant sir. We are no longer under law. If you want to convince me it is acceptable to God that His people war, then give appropriate scriptures that were written to us under the new covenant. We no longer offer animal sacrifices either, but quoting the law on that would not be evidence for us Christians.

Except Ecclesiastes is not a book of the law, anymore than psalms or proverbs are, thus it’s not stating a law from Mosaic law, but a general principle that there’s a time for war and killing and a time for peace..

And in the new covenant:

1. Jesus told the apostles that because he was going to ascend to heaven, they needed to get swords.

2. Jesus commended a Roman centurion for his faith, and said not one word about it being wrong to be in the military as JWs claim it is.

3. Romans 13 authorizes governing authority to use a sword against evil doers and wreak vengeance on them, calling them ministers of God.

4. Then there’s this:

1Pe 2:13 Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme,

1Pe 2:14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.

1Pe 2:15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.

 

[atpollard]

We are under the new covenant sir. We are no longer under law. If you want to convince me it is acceptable to God that His people war, then give appropriate scriptures that were written to us under the new covenant. We no longer offer animal sacrifices either, but quoting the law on that would not be evidence for us Christians.

Respectfully, I am not here to convince you of anything. Reread the OP. I responded to your offer of guidance in a new thread to avoid pushing another thread deeply off topic. I requested you offer SOME scripture to support your emphatic statement that the Bible clearly teaches something. I even accepted your insistence that I start the conversation by offering some scripture.

I have requested that you support your position.
I have offered scripture that you have chosen to ignore.

At this point, I have no option but to conclude that you have no support to offer and ignore your claims in the OP quote as unfounded opinions. You may believe whatever you like, but I will not take your opinions over the word of God.

Where in the NT does it say that Christians are allowed to drive a car?
Should I conclude that we are forbidden from driving cars because the NT does not specifically state that we are allowed to do it?
That appears to be your argument for Christians fighting in a war.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Except Ecclesiastes is not a book of the law, anymore than psalms or proverbs are, thus it’s not stating a law from Mosaic law, but a general principle that there’s a time for war and killing and a time for peace..

And in the new covenant:

1. Jesus told the apostles that because he was going to ascend to heaven, they needed to get swords.

2. Jesus commended a Roman centurion for his faith, and said not one word about it being wrong to be in the military as JWs claim it is.

3. Romans 13 authorizes governing authority to use a sword against evil doers and wreak vengeance on them, calling them ministers of God.

4. Then there’s this:

1Pe 2:13 Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme,

1Pe 2:14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.

1Pe 2:15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.

Did not Romans 13 state openly that anyone who took a stand against a government was taking a stand against God Curt?

What was the purpose of the 2 swords? They represented provision sir, not war. Jesus was soon to be executed, and when one of them was used in aggression, Jesus made the point that they were not to be used that way. They were provided to show that they were not to be used in warfare, but soon they would have to provide for themselves again. The swords represented that. Other than that one act of aggression against the Roman authorities, do you have any example of a weapon being used against another?

Cornelius was the first uncircumcised Gentile to become a Christian, and the Bible does not give much details about what he did afterwards. He was not a Christian at the time he was mentioned in the Bible and was like you said an army officer.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Respectfully, I am not here to convince you of anything. Reread the OP. I responded to your offer of guidance in a new thread to avoid pushing another thread deeply off topic. I requested you offer SOME scripture to support your emphatic statement that the Bible clearly teaches something. I even accepted your insistence that I start the conversation by offering some scripture.

I have requested that you support your position.
I have offered scripture that you have chosen to ignore.

At this point, I have no option but to conclude that you have no support to offer and ignore your claims in the OP quote as unfounded opinions. You may believe whatever you like, but I will not take your opinions over the word of God.

Where in the NT does it say that Christians are allowed to drive a car?
Should I conclude that we are forbidden from driving cars because the NT does not specifically state that we are allowed to do it?
That appears to be your argument for Christians fighting in a war.

Sure! 2 Cor 10:3,4 point blank stated Jesus' followers will not participate in war, Jesus himself did not either. 2 Tim 2:24 states: (2 Timothy 2:24) . . .a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, showing restraint when wronged,

Jesus stated to pray for our enemies, doing good to them who persecute you. The Christian weapons are identified in Eph beginning in verse 13 after making clear that our war is spiritual. During the last days Christians who flock to God's house have beaten their swords into plowshares Isa 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-5

Now you have my scriptural evidence, what do you have? Is there any war in the Bible that Christians participated in?

 

[atpollard]

Now you have my scriptural evidence, what do you have? Is there any war in the Bible that Christians participated in?

Were there any carts driven by Christians?
You are making an argument from silence fallacy.

 

[atpollard]

2 Cor 10:3,4 point blank stated Jesus' followers will not participate in war

Let's just see for ourselves if that statement is true:

2 Corinthians 10:1-6 [NKJV]
1 Now I, Paul, myself am pleading with you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ--who in presence am lowly among you, but being absent am bold toward you. 2 But I beg you that when I am present I may not be bold with that confidence by which I intend to be bold against some, who think of us as if we walked according to the flesh. 3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

Ummm ... Paul is saying two things.

1. Christians DO WAGE WAR
2. We do not fight SPIRITUAL battles with CARNAL weapons.

What it DOES NOT SAY is 'point blank' (or any other range) that "Jesus' followers will not participate in war".
It says Jesus followers WAGE WAR against

• "every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God"
• "being ready to punish all disobedience" (sin)

using SPIRITUAL weapons against SPIRITUAL enemies ... (and PHYSICAL weapons against PHYSICAL enemies? ... the verse is silent.)

 

[atpollard]

During the last days Christians who flock to God's house have beaten their swords into plowshares Isa 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-5

You cannot chastise me for Ecclesiastes and refuse to address it by rejecting all of the OT and then selectively ask me to view only YOUR FAVORITE OT verses. You set the NEW TESTAMENT ONLY ground rules. Isaiah and Micah are as irrelevant at Ecclesiastes.