The Case for the Sinless Ever-Virgin Mary.

[RedFan]

God's will for mankind is to reach perfection in holiness (Matt. 5:48). To be without sin requires the cooperation of God and man. To be without sin would mean an immaculate soul, capable of possessing the fullness of God's Grace, and God's Grace in cooperation with one who has a natural good will and desire to not sin will not sin. If you don't include Jesus and Mary, no man has known the fullness of God's Grace except Eve and Adam, up until their fall from Grace through their disobedience. It's within Lucifer that evil originated, and our first parents, including Jesus, the New Adam, were never unable to be tempted to sin until a certain point, so why would that not be the case for Mary, the New Eve?

We are all tempted to sin, from a rather early age. I'm sure that was true for Mary as well. Let's say she gave birth at age 16. Surely it is conceivable (no pun intended) that she resisted temptation to sin with 100% success up to that point.

(I don't have a clue why Mary should be thought of as "the New Eve").

 

[Jack]

Yes. Big time.

So Catholics pray to Mary and believe she was sinless. Like she's their God?

 

[Adrift]

So Catholics pray to Mary and believe she was sinless. Like she's their God?

No. She is not put on the same footing as Jesus, but she is revered and has many prayers focused on her. Especially so in the Catholic hispanic community.

 

[Adrift]

Here is a popular example:

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,
our life, our sweetness and our hope.
To thee do we cry,
poor banished children of Eve.
To thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn then, most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us,
and after this our exile
show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

 

[Pearl]

"...for all have sinned" (Rom. 3:22)

...with the exception of Jesus, so why not also His Mother, Mary, the One Who conceived Him, God Incarnate?
There's no scriptural verse that forbids the exception applying to Mary as well.

Jesus referred to Himself as God in various ways more than once (Jn. 8:58;10:22-36), even the Pharisees understood that He did, which is why they told him they were going to stone Him for "blasphemy" for "making Himself God." (Jn. 10:33)

Now, consider that only the High Priest was allowed into the Holy of Holies to offer sacrifice to God for the sins of humanity.
Would Mary not have to be so Holy and Perfect, to the point of being Second only to God, as to conceive God Incarnate, the Messiah, and offer Him to God the Father as a sacrifice for the sins of humanity? Could God, in advance, not have Thought of creating the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate, preserving it from inheriting the stain of original sin, and thus becoming an immaculate soul capable of possessing the fullness of His Grace, then infusing it into the embryo at the moment of conception? Could these factors, coupled with being conceived by and born of two Just human parents and having a natural good will, not result in Mary being a worthy dwelling place for God Incarnate, the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior, the most Holy and Perfect One, to be conceived and take form in, and live a divinely Holy life with in Spirit and Body on earth and in Heaven?

Peter says, “...like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written: “You shall be holy, for I am holy” (1 Pet. 1:15-16, cf. Lev. 19:2;20:7;20:26;21:8). Jesus, God Incarnate, was holy in all His behavior because He was without sin (1 Pet. 2:22), and thus He was completely Holy. If Mary was not without sin in all Her behavior, then She was not completely Holy and Perfect. Sin is disobedience, evil, and unholy (1 Jn. 3:4;8), and "no evil can dwell with God" (Ps. 5:4). Therefore, how could God, the most Holy and Perfect One, allegedly create a soul, and as God Incarnate take form and dwell in a body, that was not the most Holy and Perfect so as to be Second only to Him?​

Sorry, but according to scripture there is no case. She was a sinner as are all humans and she was a married woman who bore other children after Jesus. End of.

 

[RedFan]

Sorry, but according to scripture there is no case. She was a sinner as are all humans . . .

Ah, but was she a sinner prior to birthing Jesus?

 

[Jack]

No. She is not put on the same footing as Jesus, but she is revered and has many prayers focused on her. Especially so in the Catholic hispanic community.

If they pray to Mary they expect her to answer their prayers? Only God can answer prayers.

 

[Adrift]

If they pray to Mary they expect her to answer their prayers? Only God can answer prayers.

You would need to ask one of them. I am not.

 

[RedFan]

If they pray to Mary they expect her to answer their prayers? Only God can answer prayers.

Asking others to pray for a specific intention (happens all the time, including on this forum) raises an interesting philosophical question: if they do pray as requested, and God is moved as a result to grant the intention, did asking them to intercede on your behalf constitute a "prayer"?

Catholics consider Mary an intercessor in the same way, albeit one holding far more sway with the Almighty!

 

[Jack]

1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Sure isn't referring to Mary.

 

[Soulx3]

We are all tempted to sin, from a rather early age. I'm sure that was true for Mary as well. Let's say she gave birth at age 16. Surely it is conceivable (no pun intended) that she resisted temptation to sin with 100% success up to that point.

(I don't have a clue why Mary should be thought of as "the New Eve").

You suggested what if Mary didn't sin up to the point of Jesus's birth, but then sinned afterward. I'm asking why would that be the case?

 

[Adrift]

Asking others to pray for a specific intention (happens all the time, including on this forum) raises an interesting philosophical question: if they do pray as requested, and God is moved as a result to grant the intention, did asking them to intercede on your behalf constitute a "prayer"?

Catholics consider Mary an intercessor in the same way, albeit one holding far more sway with the Almighty!

I believe that prayers for worldly issues go unanswered. God isn't going to help you get over your bout of the flu or help you get a new car. Just think of how many millions of sincere prayers went out for the people trapped in the Twin Towers on 911 just before they fell. They all died anyway. God does not intervene in worldly issues. Jesus taught us how to pray and the obvious inferance was to pray that God's will be done and that he forgive our sins.

 

[Soulx3]

Sorry, but according to scripture there is no case. She was a sinner as are all humans and she was a married woman who bore other children after Jesus. End of.

"...for all have sinned" (Rom. 3:22) with the exception of Jesus, so why not also His Mother, Mary, the One Who conceived Him, God Incarnate? There's no scriptural verse that forbids the exception applying to Mary as well. Also, only Jesus is called the Son of Mary, and those believed to have been his half-siblings were the sons of His uncle, and thus His cousins.

 

[Jack]

Only God answers oray, which is why we ask Her to join us in prayer to Him, just as you ask others to join you in prayer to God.

You ask Mary to join you? You don't pray to Mary?

 

[Soulx3]

Do Catholics pray to Mary?

We pray to God and ask others, like family, friends, Jesus's Mother, etc., to join us in our prayer to God about this or that.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Now, consider that only the High Priest was allowed into the Holy of Holies to offer sacrifice to God for the sins of humanity.
Would Mary not have to be so Holy and Perfect, to the point of being Second only to God, as to conceive God Incarnate, the Messiah, and offer Him to God the Father as a sacrifice for the sins of humanity?

2 Corinthians 4:5-7 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. [6] For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, has shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. [7] But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

I’m only giving an opinion on trying to say Mary would have to be the Holy of Holies and perfect as a basis for Jesus Christ being born. If you follow the rest He wasn’t accepted by the splendor of the beautiful City but born in a stable or grain (feed)house where the animals were kept. More the astonishment “is this a Nazarene?! Oh mercy upon all! Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” And then the above that we carry “this treasure given of God” in “earthen vessels” …why? So the power be of God and not us. So would God want the power to be of Mary and not Him? Or Her “I would rather be weak that the power of God may rest upon me. For when I am weak; then I am strong.” She said it herself “I am your humble servant” she called herself “lowly” is it a shame for her to have done so that the power of God been seen? I don’t think so. But many would love to change it to He was born out of the beautiful house and well accepted of His own, not out of Nazareth and not out of a lowly woman He came forth, as the Lamb of God; not brought forth of men and their strength but of God.

Simeons words inspired by the Spirit of God spoken to Mary “yea, a sword shall pierce through your own soul also”
Luke 2:33-35 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. [34] And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; [35] (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

 

[Soulx3]

2 Corinthians 4:5-7 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. [6] For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, has shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. [7] But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

I’m only giving an opinion on trying to say Mary would have to be the Holy of Holies and perfect as a basis for Jesus Christ being born. If you follow the rest He wasn’t accepted by the splendor of the beautiful City but born in a stable or grain (feed)house where the animals were kept. More the astonishment “is this a Nazarene?! Oh mercy upon all! Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” And then the above that we carry “this treasure given of God” in “earthen vessels” …why? So the power be of God and not us. So would God want the power to be of Mary and not Him? She said it herself “I am your humble servant” she called herself “lowly” is it a shame for her to have done so that the power of God been seen? I don’t think so. But many would love to change it to He was born out of the beautiful house and well accepted of His own, not out of Nazareth and not out of a lowly woman he came forth as the Lamb of God.

Simeons words inspired by the Spirit of God spoken to Mary “yea, a sword shall pierce through your own soul also”
Luke 2:33-35 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. [34] And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; [35] (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

How would Mary being most Holy and Perfect, to the point of being Second to God, in order to conceive God Incarnate and offer Him as a sacrifice for the sins of humanity, etc., make the Power of God be of Mary and not God?

 

[Jack]

We pray to God and ask others, like family, friends, Jesus's Mother, etc., to join us in our prayer to God about this or that.

Is that a yes? Do Catholics pray to Mary?

 

[RedFan]

You suggested what if Mary didn't sin up to the point of Jesus's birth, but then sinned afterward. I'm asking why would that be the case?

I'm not saying it would be the case. My point was simply that if you wanted to harmonize your "need" for Mary to be sinless as a vessel for birthing Jesus (Post #21) with @marks' "all have sinned" quote from Romans as necessarily including Mary (Post #23), this is how you might do it. See my Post #37.

 

[marks]

We read, "all have sinned," yet there are still exceptions, like Jesus,

Jesus, being God, does not fall short of His Own glory. All others do, including Mary.

Yes, God could have created Mary apart from Adam, but He didn't. Yes, God could have prevented sins corruption (I speak as fool) from touching Mary, but He didn't.

You seem to think that this is impossible, that God will condescend to live with sinful man, but He did, even with Mary. It's what the Bible says. You do not believe it.

Much love!