"The Christian Life"

[Netchaplain]

My beloved friend in Christ, the passage is suppose to read that Jesus is equal with God, not the opposite. But how this is interpreted doesn't affect the Salvation Doctrine.

 

[Insight]

My beloved friend in Christ, the passage is suppose to read that Jesus is equal with God, not the opposite. But how this is interpreted doesn't affect the Salvation Doctrine.

Hi Net,

Your position on this verse does not fit with the understanding of "robbery" regardless of how one would twist the passage. Also the proceeding verses speak of how he gained his eventual equality with his Father.

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Now it appears you would have Jesus equal to the Father before his sufferings, rejection and crucifixion.

As supported by the proceeding verse.

Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

So if you make him equal in verse 6 then verse 7,8&9 have no meaning whatsoever.

Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

So what issues present with your teaching.

If Jesus is already equal in Phil 2:6 (being in sins flesh) and shared this equality previously, the point of him being a servant, humble , a man obedient to death is empty of any real meaning.

If verse 9 God hath “highly exalted him” is on the basis of his servitude which lead to crucifixion and death – On what basis did he share this exalted position prior to this appointed position with the Father?

If you can provide Book, Chapter and verse that would be great.

I appreciate and value you kindness and loving tones as expressed in your last response, however they mean very little (to me) if you believe that “any interpretation” will not affect your salvation.

Being a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ, I will allow him to judge what doctrine is able to save, anything less, is failure to follow the Master's example of being a servant. I will fall under his command and teachings and be subject to them and not divide the Word and thier importance to save.

In the Master's Service

Insight

Oh, and one more thing...if God exalted Christ in verse 9 can you explain his exaltation, how, what, why etc. If indeed you are adament Phil 2:6 reveals him to be was already exalted!

 

[Netchaplain]

Christ needed no human exultation prior to Him creating everything for there were only angelic relations before creation, which He was always above them, being the creator of them also.

He was made lower than the angels but this reference is only in relation to His bodily form on earth, but was still deity, being omnipresent on Earth and in Heaven simultaneously.

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven." NKJV Jn 3:13.

 

[Insight]

Hi Net,

I made no reference to human exultation.

You believe and teach Jesus shared equality with God from Phil 2:6; I am asking you very simply to define the exalted position God gave his Son in Phil 2:9?

It appears your understanding is not in harmony with Pauls.

Insight

 

[Netchaplain]

Jiggyfly, thanks for you complement and the welcome!

To Our Increase of Christ's Image

 

[Nomad]

You present Nicene Christianity which appears to have taken you captive?

Jesus was a created being...the firstborn among the dead. Col 1:18

Insight

I don't know what correlation there is between Jesus being created and being the firstborn among the dead. There's no connection there at all. Be that as it may, do you mean to say that you deny the doctrine of the Trinity? If so, maybe a formal debate is in order. I've been looking for the opportunity to debate a Unitarian or at least someone who denies the deity of Christ. So which is it for you? Oh, and when I say formal debate, I mean one in a thread in which only you and I can post, complete with opening statements, rebuttals, cross examination and audience questions at the end. If that can't be accommodated here there are such accommodations on the Reformed apologetics website where I'm a moderator. We've done it before there.

 

[Insight]

I don't know what correlation there is between Jesus being created and being the firstborn among the dead. There's no connection there at all. Be that as it may, do you mean to say that you deny the doctrine of the Trinity? If so, maybe a formal debate is in order. I've been looking for the opportunity to debate a Unitarian or at least someone who denies the deity of Christ. So which is it for you? Oh, and when I say formal debate, I mean one in a thread in which only you and I can post, complete with opening statements, rebuttals, cross examination and audience questions at the end. If that can't be accommodated here there are such accommodations on the Reformed apologetics website where I'm a moderator. We've done it before there.

Hi Nomad,

Correlation?

Jesus has an end and a beginning…that’s why he is referred to as the Alpha and Omega Rev 1:8.

"I am Alpha and Omega"

You would know that the words Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet?
The question is why would Jesus be called the Alpha and Omega?

Well, we all know that Jesus was the Word “made” flesh (a spiritual creation) and that he is the "author (beginning) and finisher (end) of our faith" (Heb 12:2).

He is the only MAN to ever fully allow the Word of God to write his life and ours. And it is in this Jesus the Father (Yahweh) placed the process of reconciliation, redemption and salvation from condemnation and death.

When Jesus speaks he does so as the Father, but not being the Father...the Son only does that which the Father allows!

For I do not speak of myself, but from the Father who sent me and commanded me what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that [to obey] his command is life everlasting. Therefore, whatever I speak is just as the Father tells me to speak."

He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but he who seeks the glory of the One who sent him, that man is true, and there is no unrighteousness is in him.

So clearly Jesus speaks as the manifestation of Yahweh, the Almighty.
Though Yahweh has NO beginning or end, His manifestation is in man who has beginning and ending.

Therefore, Jesus Christ represents those who have a beginning and end!

God will be made known in and though the Lord Jesus Christ and He "will also be" made known through Adams fallen sons and daughters over who Jesus Christ is the Alpha (beginning) and Omega (end).
Let us consider the evidence!

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us (Nomad & Insight), that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us (Nomad & Insight) not, because it knew him (Jesus) not. 1 John 3:1

See our association with the Alpha and Omega?

19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God Rom 8:19

Is Jesus included in the manifestation of the sons of God?

I hope you say yes Nomad because if you say no! You are none of His children.

Compare these verses with:

6Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isa. 44:6

Here God is stamping His authority on who is the sole source of the generations of men, ages, kingdoms etc.

Nothing has a beginning or end which HE has not started or finished Himself!!!

4Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isa. 41:4

Jews understood the One Creator was responsible for their lives and the existence of all things physical which have a beginning and end is attributed to the One True God, beside whom there is no other.

Conclusion:

The first red word "last" in Isa 44:6 is in the singular, which clearly reveals God manifesting Himself through Jesus personally; in the latter, it is in the plural - referring to him in a innumerable sense (multitudinous Christ).

Everyone in this forum understands that Yahweh, God, Almighty Father etc has NO END however, He establishes our generations, He creates life, Jesus being the first born, although the Head of the Body he is a created being, who is titled "Alpha and Omega" - - we are like Jesus who have a beginning and end, and therefore we are represented with Christ who will one day be the Glory of the Father!

So the context of Rev 1:8; (and Phil 2:6,9) comprises the Title of Yahweh as manifested in the innumerable body of believers in Christ over who the Lord Jesus is our head.

But He who made Jesus our head has NO HEAD NO BEGINNING OR END!!!...for He is beyond the Alpha and Omega...for He never had a beginning or an end, but thankfully for us He teaches...

And I will be a Father unto you (Nomad & Insight), and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 2 Cor. 6:18

Jesus being the firstborn Son from among the dead.

So in term of the correlation with regard to Jesus being the firstborn among the dead – I would suggest is rather significant.
In terms of your offer I would be more than happy to discuss the error of the Trinity with you in this forum. At present I am preparing a series of studies on Josiah and the Judges, which is taking up significant time. If you wanted to start something informal, or we can wait until I conclude these works. Either way I am more than happy to accommodate.

Insight

 

[brionne]

Do we do God's work by using His Spirit or does God's Spirit do His work by using us? The primary issue in this question is who's doing the work because that's where the credit is solely attributed.

Us not desiring the credit can lead us to the answer that God does the work, using us, like the hand using the pen to write. The pen doesn't determine the work but is being a partaker of the work.

What's your opinion on the statement below?

"Our Father is going to teach us, mainly through personal failure, that the life we live is the life of our Lord Jesus alone. The Christian life is not our living a life like Christ, or our trying to be Christ-like, nor is it Christ giving us the power to live a life like His; but it is Christ Himself living His own life through us; 'no longer I, but Christ.'"

Loving You In Christ

i think the statement contradicts Gods word in many ways

God teaches us through personal failure? No, rather the scripture says that God teaches us to 'benefit ourselves' Isaiah 48:17. God is Wisdom...how can he teach us through error? If God teaches us anything, it certainly isnt 'error'

The christian life is not our living a life like Christ? Rubbish. The scriptures tell us to 'imitate' Christs example. 1Cor 11:1


if people stuck to the scriptures God would bless them with insight...but they dont. They think they are better then Gods word, that they are more wise so they go about seeking to explain things 'apart' from Gods word and thats how we've ended up with 30,000 different christian denominations.

 

[Insight]

i think the statement contradicts Gods word in many ways

God teaches us through personal failure? No, rather the scripture says that God teaches us to 'benefit ourselves' Isaiah 48:17. God is Wisdom...how can he teach us through error? If God teaches us anything, it certainly isnt 'error'

The christian life is not our living a life like Christ? Rubbish. The scriptures tell us to 'imitate' Christs example. 1Cor 11:1


if people stuck to the scriptures God would bless them with insight...but they dont. They think they are better then Gods word, that they are more wise so they go about seeking to explain things 'apart' from Gods word and thats how we've ended up with 30,000 different christian denominations.

Very good Pegg.

 

[Nomad]

Jesus has an end and a beginning…that’s why he is referred to as the Alpha and Omega Rev 1:8.

Sorry, but that is simply ridiculous. He doesn't say that he has a beginning and end. He says that he is the beginning and end. This is an idiomatic expression denoting that which is supreme or ultimate. Every time you find this expression used of God or Christ it is tied inextricably to this concept. This brings me to my next point. If this idiom means that which has a beginning or end in time when it applies to Christ, then it means the same thing when it applies to God in the OT. Examples below:

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isa 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.

If you wanted to start something informal, or we can wait until I conclude these works. Either way I am more than happy to accommodate.

I'll wait.

 

[Insight]

Sorry, but that is simply ridiculous. He doesn't say that he has a beginning and end. He says that he is the beginning and end. This is an idiomatic expression denoting that which is supreme or ultimate.

So Nomad you reject Jesus “is” the Alpha (beginning) and the Omega (End)? You must then refute Jesus Christ was born and died?

How well do you know the Greek language? The Alpha and Omega is the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. There happen to be twenty four letters in the Greek alphabet, which also answer to the twenty-four elders of Rev. 4:4:

Coincidence?

Who do the 24 elders represent Nomad?

And upon answering, maybe you could explain their relationship to the Alpha and Omega of Rev 1:8?

Every time you find this expression used of God or Christ it is tied inextricably to this concept. This brings me to my next point. If this idiom means that which has a beginning or end in time when it applies to Christ, then it means the same thing when it applies to God in the OT. Examples below:

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isa 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.
I'll wait.

You misinterpreted Isa 44:6; 48:12 ( look again!)

Yahweh is the one who foretells the future (See Isa 44:7 here as well in Rev 1:1; 22:6: "what must soon take place’, He is the One who brings it to pass! The same One who passed on Apocalypse to His Son whom God made the beginning and the end. Therefore Jesus Christ represents His Father’s Word perfectly to all humanity.

Are we surprised to see Jesus totally reliant on the Father for commands, prophecies, promises, and all existence?

Nomad you will never be able to refute Jesus had a beginning and an end – in vain you may try!

Jesus’s whole life was framed by a beginning and an end, the Apocalypse is framed with a beginning and end (See Rev 1:8 & Rev 21:6; 22:13) the Bible is framed with a begjnning and an end - - your life is framed with a beginning and end, however Yahweh, God Almighty has NO beginning or end, He ALONE is outside any limitations you may desire to place on Him.

Hence, you have misinterpreted Isa 44:6; 48:12 because it is HE who is stamping his Authority over all creation (including Jesus Christ) that He alone starts a thing and it is He alone who finishes it.

It is clear you are not well versed in the Revelation and perhaps you should study these Scriptures more carefully before discounting their substance.

Isa 44:6; 48:12

cmp

Rev 1:8, 17; 21:6; 22:13 (I(Jesus) was dead (an end) and now I am alive (Who made him alive?)

See Acts 13:37 and the many references to his Father raising him to life.

Also consider the work of Jesus Christ in relation to the becoming the beginning and end of this creation in Rom 15:8.

Who does the Truth of God belong to? That he was made a minister of these things?

It is enough.

Insight

 

[Nomad]

Insight,

I honestly can't make heads or tales of your post. It's nothing bunch of incoherent rambling. I reject that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega? Where did I do that? The 24 letters of the Greek alphabet correspond to the 24 elders in revelation? Come on Insight, are you serious? There's not a shred of evidence for such eisogesis. No matter. My point still stands nonetheless. Something that is the "beginning and the end" is that which is superior, supreme or ultimate. It has nothing to do with that which is temporal. Again, if this idiomatic expression means that Christ has a beginning and an end, then it means the same when applied to Jehovah in Isaiah. Plain and simple.

 

[Insight]

Insight,
I honestly can't make heads or tales of your post. It's nothing bunch of incoherent rambling. I reject that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega? Where did I do that? The 24 letters of the Greek alphabet correspond to the 24 elders in revelation? Come on Insight, are you serious. There's not a shred of evidence for such eisogesis. No matter. My point still stands nonetheless. Something that is the "beginning and the end" is that which is superior, supreme or ultimate. It has nothing to do with that which is temporal. Again, if this idiomatic expression means that Christ has a beginning and an end, then it means the same when applied to Jehovah in Isaiah. Plain and simple.

Your quick response shows you barely had time to read the verses?

How can we begin a debate if you are unable to communicate how Jesus relates to the 24 elders?

Are you serious?

Your avoidance is evident and noted.

Does God have a beginning or an end?

Yes or No?

If No in what way does Jesus then relate to those who have a beginning and an end?

 

[veteran]

Isa 29:22-24
22 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale.
23 But when he seeth his children, the work of Mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify My name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.
24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.
(KJV)

Isa 60:21
21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of My planting, the work of My hands, that I may be glorified.
(KJV)

John 6:28-29
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him Whom He hath sent.
(KJV)

1 Cor 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(KJV)

 

[Nomad]

How can we begin a debate if you are unable to communicate how Jesus relates to the 24 elders?

Do you mean how the idiom "Alpha and Omega" relates to the 24 elders? My "communication" has been and is that there is no correspondence and you haven't proven otherwise.

Your avoidance is evident and noted.

What avoidance?

Does God have a beginning or an end?

Yes or No?

If No in what way does Jesus then relate to those who have a beginning and an end?

What in the world does God's eternal nature have to do with how Jesus "relates" to temporal man? What in the world do you mean by "relate?"

 

[Insight]

Nomad,

Rev 4:4 teaches us that it is Yahweh’s intention is to “restore the tabernacle of David as it was in the days of old" (See Amos 9:11 & Acts 15:16).

If you go back into history you will find the political order of the days of David and Solomon provide you with a pattern for the future.

David divided the priests and Levites into a series of twenty-four orders (See 1 Chron. 24:4; 25:1,31).
Their duties were to minister to the people in all forms of religious service including teaching (2 Chron. 15:3), musical arrangements (1 Chron. 25:1,31), and so forth.

The twenty-four elders, therefore represent the royal priesthood of the Kingdom (See Rev. 5:9,10; 14:3), as based upon the pattern of the Davidic arrangements.

Now how does this order relate to Jesus Christ (Our High Priest) as being the one who represents those who are the Alpha (beginning) and Omega (End)…the beginning and end?

What is the function and office of a High Priest?

This thing is very easy to understand if you put away your error.

Heb 2:17; 4:15 will certainly lead you in the right direction.

In Christ (the Alpha and Omega) we have a chosen mediator (See 1 Tim 2:5)—Nomad Jesus was NOT self-appointed!! "No man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron" (See Heb. 5:4).

It was God who said, "Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek" (Psa 110:4). We see him offer blood--not the blood of bulls and goats, but his own blood: he alone entering the holiest for the first time! "heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us" (Heb 9:24).

Jesus was the Work of Yahweh in a way we are not. He became the perfect one, without spot, without sin. His character had a beginning and he was developed for his priesthood; for the forgiveness of saints…and those who understand these truths will reign with him as priests as well as kings (Heb. 2:13,14; Isa. 53:10; Rev 5:10).

So don’t be foolish and discount the Word like you do…just because you cannot see the connection between Rev 1:8 and Rev 4:4 doesn’t mean there isn't one.

In this instance you have learned that Jesus Christ represents the 24 elders the one who is their High Priest and mediator – i.e The One MAN how mediates between God and Man – that’s right his name is Jesus Christ the name that was given to him by His Father Phil 2:6,7,8,9 & 1 Tim 2:5.

Insight

 

[Nomad]

Uh, yeah, o.k. Just let me know when you're ready to debate the doctrine of the Trinity. I'm hoping that your arguments won't be so incoherent at that time.

 

[Insight]

We (Nomad & Insight) have a great high priest (Rev 1:8 & Rev 4:4), that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God

Why?

"to appear in the presence of God for us" Heb 4:14; Heb 9:24

But don’t you portray him to be God Nomad?

Please don’t blame incoherency for your ignorance on these matters. You cannot define the Alpha and Omega or the 24 elders. It appears you struggle to understand the office of High Priest before Yahweh - the one true God Duet 6:4 and thus far you have presented no arguments at all just unwarranted criticism revealing your lack of understanding on these matters.

Maybe next time we discuss these matters you could at the very least enter the Word.

While you ponder this try and reconcile these passages below with Rev 1:8 & Rev 4:4

John: "If any man sin, we have an advocate (1Tim 2:5): with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"

Paul: "Let us come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."

May James 1:3,4,5 apply.

Insight

 

[Nomad]

Just let me know when you're ready to debate the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[Insight]

Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of Man...

But NEVER God the Son....as proven over the past few posts.