The Chrurch, Israel, Israel>>The Church?

[blessedhope]

In the future, both God’s warnings and promises to Israel will come to pass. After the Lord is finished with the Church Age, and has taken the Church to Heaven in the Rapture 1 Thess. 4:16-18), God will restore Israel to center stage on the world’s divine theater. First comes the devastating “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” (Jer. 30:7) also known as the Great Tribulation. This is a dreadful period of seven years, which begins relatively lightly during the first half, but intensifies into full focus during the latter half. During this time the world is judged for rejecting Christ, but, more specifically, Israel is judged, purged and prepared through the fiery trials of the Great Tribulation for the Second Coming of the Messiah. This is the bad news.
The good news is that, when Christ does return to the earth at the end of the Tribulation, Israel will be ready, willing, and eager to receive Him, and proclaim, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord” (Matt. 23:39). As the stumbling of Israel brought blessing to the world at Christ’s First Coming, the reception of Israel to Christ at His Second Advent will be like “life from the dead” (Rom. 11:15). The remnant of Israel which survives the Tribulation (some one-third of the Jewish people who enter the Tribulation), will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on the same earth and the same capital city, Jerusalem, that rejected Him centuries before. Israel will be the head of the nations, and no longer the tail, and all nations will send representatives to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Isa. 2:2-3;Micah 4:1). The Church will return with Christ, and will rule with Him for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-5). He Himself told His disciples that they would rule over the 12 tribes of Israel in the restoration (Matt. 19:28). Thus, Israel has not been forgotten in God’s plan. While the Jewish nation still has a dark period facing it, there is a glorious finale to Israel’s long history.

 

[blessedhope]

It took some time, perhaps a couple of centuries, but eventually the vast Gentile majority in the Church began to view Israel as a vestigial organ that had outlived its usefulness. In fact, the predominant Christian view was that the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Romans in 70 AD signaled the official and divinely-ordained end of the Jewish nation, never more to be re-instituted as a national entity. The fact that Jerusalem lay in ruins and the Jewish people were scattered over the world was seen as conclusive evidence that God was forever finished with national Israel. If there were any purpose for the existence of the Jewish people, it was to remind the world of the severe judgment of God upon a disobedient people.

If this harsh view of Israel were true, though, what of the promises of God to Israel in the Old Testament? For those who claimed to believe in the entire Bible as the Word of God, this was a great problem. How could a faithful God not keep His promises to His ancient people? To deal with this took extraordinary theological dexterity and alchemy. The theologians had to propose that Israel in the Scriptures did not really mean Israel, especially when it came to the promises of eternal blessing. Instead, Israel meant something else, something that came to be known in the New Testament as the Church. The Church became the new Israel, and through this remarkable transformation, wherever blessing is promised to Israel in the Old Testament, it was interpreted to mean the Church. This is Replacement Theology, in which the Church has become Israel.
Replacement Theology was already around before the end of the First Century, but did not become the official position of professing Christian leadership until Augustine popularized the concept, primarily in THE CITY OF GOD, in the latter part of the Fourth Century. Augustine actually states that he was previously a Chiliast, meaning that he was a believer in the thousand-year reign of Christ on the earth after His return. This is the same as our current description of Premillennialism. However, he had come to the conclusion that this view was “carnal,” and had adopted the view that the reign of Christ would be something more “spiritual,” and would actually occur during the Church Age. Such a view necessitated the extinction of Israel, and the cancellation of all promises God made to the Jewish nation. These promises of blessing would now be fulfilled within the framework of the Church.

This view, which had been latent in Christendom, now flourished throughout the Byzantine world. From this point on, the theological legs were cut out from under Israel, and the predominant Christian theology was that there was no future for Israel. Replacement Theology has been the rule that has survived the Middle Ages, the Crusades and the Reformation in Church History. Only during the last Century or so has the Premillennial concept of the future of Israel come to the forefront in evangelical Christianity. Even so, it is a minority view.

 

[blessedhope]

Many transfer the promises and the covenants to Israel to the Church, but there is absolutely no reason to do this. The Church is not spiritual Israel. Look it up you’ll never find the term or concept in the Bible. There are only two verses that are used to validate this view, both are unsupported in their context.
Gal.3:29 says that those who belong to Christ are Abraham’s seed. The seed of Abraham does not mean one is Israel. It Means those who are justified by faith are spiritual descendants of Abraham but this does not make them descendants of Jacob who is Israel. They partake in the spiritual blessings that come through Israel. While there are two different groups of people who can be descendants of Abraham one of which is the Arabs, they do not share in the promises of Jacob. Only Israel is descended from the physical posterity of Jacob.
The other verse is Gal.6:16 where Paul is addressing both believing Jews and Gentiles in the church "As many as walk according to this rule (Gentile believers) and upon "the Israel of God." In its context this term means Jews who are believers, who believe salvation is by faith in Christ contrary to what the Judaizers were teaching that the law was needed also. Paul also addresses this in Rom.9:6-8 that there are two Israel's, one that consists of Jews and the elect, the true Israel which are the physical posterity and also have the faith of Abraham, they are the Israel of God mentioned in Gal.6. As Paul states, " for they are not all Israel who are of Israel." (Rom.9:6). There is also "Israel" after the flesh found in 1 Cor.10:18. The Church is never called spiritual Israel or is a new Israel replacing the old. Nor does it say believers become Jews. Both gentiles and Jews participate together in the New Covenant. as Eph 2 addresses the middle wall of partition being broken down and God makeing a new entity.
In the N.T we have three terms used alongside each other, Israel, Gentiles and the Church. The Church consists of both believing Gentiles and Jews while Israel as a nation is in unbelief as are the Gentiles. The Church and Israel are two distinct groups and God has a different program for each. Both are brought in make up the body of Christ. The name Israel is used 20 times and the church 19 times in the book of Acts, both are kept distinct While there is no difference in salvation for both, Gods plans are different for each. In the book of Acts Israel and the church exist alongside each other, nowhere is the church called the new or spiritual Israel.There are certain areas the differences of Jew and gentile are erased but in all areas.Such as we becoming one in Christ all the same way 1 Cor.12:13 , according to the NT a Jew is one that is not only outwardly by the flesh but inwardly,this obviously can't be for a gentile so for a gentile. there is no such thing as a spiritual Jew from the inside only, but there is such a thing as spiritual gentiles.
If you claim to be Israel then you were cut off according to Romans.11. And where the natural branch once was, God grafted in unnatural ones the Gentiles. It doesn't get any clearer. The teaching of God abandoning Israel the nation or replaced by the Church did quite well for almost 1,500 hundred years until he actually gave them back their land AND STARTED TO REGATHER THEM FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD JUST AS HE SAID HE WOULD. God said in Neh. 1:8 if you are unfaithful I will scatter you.' but he also said...

Jer.30:18, 31:8 "Behold I will bring them from the north country and gather them from the ends of the earth."

Isa.43:5 I will bring your descendants from the east and gather you from the west...

It is a nation that is being gathered today for the tribulation, they are gathered first in unbelief until that fateful day where in Romans 11 Paul says they will all be saved after the fullness of the gentiles has come in. The Church is dealt with differently than the nation of Israel, God has a differnt plan for both.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all.

the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two should not be confused

well this is the first truth I have heard from U. yes the church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and from anyone or anything else also. and second, the church was not "CREATED" or "STARTED" on the Day of Pentecost after Christ’s resurrection from the dead. the Lord Jesus stated that he will build, "HIS" church, he did not say that he would create his church, or start his church, but "BUILD IT", please listen to the scriptures, Matthew 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". build here, means to cause to be constructed, or formed. it is the Greek Word G3618 οἰκοδομέω oikodomeo (oi-ko-d̮o-me'-ō). and the KJV can translate it as, a (be in) build(-er, -ing, up). b. edify. c. embolden. Now a. is a dead give away, "be in". and b. is in context of the scripture Matthews 16:18 which implies that the Church is already in a state of existence. meaning he lives, but I'm dead, which by God encouraging, I, we, us will live AGAIN, hence to be BORN AGAIN, (sound like, smacks like, "GOOD NEWS", or what we call the Gospel of Jesus Christ), now aint that something, well that seem to me, b. edification, or encouragement which we should do to one another every day, instead of division. and c. "embolden", is what happen to the church, me, and U, us at Pentecost after Christ’s resurrection from the dead. simply put, to LIVE by the POWER of the Spirit. Embolden means to give (someone) the courage or confidence to do something (for we have not been given the spirit of fear) or to behave in a certain way, and that takes POWER to act a certain way. this is called "SONSHIP". lets break it down. definition time, what do the word "SON" mean, Spiritually? answer, using Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Son: ,G5207, huios It is often used metaphorically of prominent moral characteristics (do we need to go any further?), well lets go on. descendants, without reference to sex, Rom 9:27. (but also this reference to "descendants, without reference to sex", Galatians 3:28 & 29 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise". well that just answered my Roman 9:6 above in post #12. but let's continue. those who act in a certain way, whether evil, Matt 23:31, or good, Gal 3:7; those who manifest a certain character, whether evil, Acts 13:10; Eph 2:2, or good, Luke 6:35; Acts 4:36; Rom 8:14. so understand, the definition of G3618 οἰκοδομέω oikodomeo (oi-ko-d̮o-me'-ō), (A) TO BUILD, (B) CONSTRUCT, and (C) figuratively to confirm is what God did to his CHURCH. the confirmation was that the church, which was DEAD in sins and trespasses now live in POWER. see blessedhope, you better hope you are in the church, (CHRIST), even if you was born in the land of Israel, or tim buck 2, it dose not matter. the KJV can translate the word build as a. "be in". and to do that one need power, but we're DEAD, meaning POWERLESS. so let's check the record, John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:". now lets recap and see the big picture as to who's IN, IN, IN, IN, the church?. Ephesians 2:1 "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins". ok who is the you here? answer, let go to the beginning of the book, chapter 1, verse 1. Ephesians 1:1 "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus". Hmmmmmmmmm...... the saints, and the faithful in, in, in, in Christ Jesus. now one with a carnal eye would say that's two types of people. a. saints, and b. faithful in Christ. NO, it the same one's.... it's the "YOU" in chapter 2:1, (smile). #1. people "become" saints not on their own but by the POWER of God, (John 1:12). but how, and from where? faith come by hearing. hearing what?, the word of God. and Faith is "BUILT" upon, which leads us to the second definition of "BUILD", build(-er, -ing, up) just see 2 Peter 1:5-8. because every man (Male and Female) is given the measure of Faith, see Romans 12:3. also the definition of BUILD can be translated as b. edify. simply to build up, Romans 14:19 "Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another". I suggest you read your commentary on that select scripture. me, Gill's is a good one.

in conclusion, the Lord Jesus church is 1. "IN" him. 2. "FORMED" in him. and 3. "embolden", or POWERED in, and by him. so the church always was from the beginning. and this notion that the nation of Israel is something, not in God sight. she was only used as to set the example to the world. she is no better or worst than any other nation. the apostle Peter found that out, Acts 10:34 & 35 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him". for some, that's a hard pill to swallow, but as the apostle said, "it's TRUTH". and many cannot accept the truth.

I suggest one read this post again for clarity. maybe another additional reading for more understanding.

 

[101G]

Many transfer the promises and the covenants to Israel to the Church, but there is absolutely no reason to do this. The Church is not spiritual Israel. Look it up you’ll never find the term or concept in the Bible. There are only two verses that are used to validate this view, both are unsupported in their context.
Gal.3:29 says that those who belong to Christ are Abraham’s seed. The seed of Abraham does not mean one is Israel. It Means those who are justified by faith are spiritual descendants of Abraham but this does not make them descendants of Jacob who is Israel. They partake in the spiritual blessings that come through Israel. While there are two different groups of people who can be descendants of Abraham one of which is the Arabs, they do not share in the promises of Jacob. Only Israel is descended from the physical posterity of Jacob.

this is a gross ERROR. the none Israelites was keeping covenant with God before Israel was even a nation. Job was keeping the feast day. Jethro Moses' father-in-law was keeping covenant with God before Israel was a nation. just read the story of Jethro's daughter, Zipporah, who knew to circumcise Moses first born son, (which Moses had no clue to do), read Exodus 4:21-24. this woman who apparently taught by her father kept the covenant of circumcision. so that nation thing is a false error. the promise is to those who believe. let's back this up, Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call". is the Lord calling today? yes, then it's for them also. because, John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, (NOT JUST ISRAEL ONLY) that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life".

so bh, I'll stop here, because you're still in the flesh. U act in the flesh, and U speak in the flesh. so Good day.

 

[DPMartin]

the gentile is grafted into the faith of Abraham. no need to say more.

 

[bbyrd009]

16May peace come to all those who follow this standard, and mercy to the Israel of God!

 

[Jay Ross]

Ok>> lets get down to what the bibles says about Israel and the church>> For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

It would be good if you actually looked at this verse in the Greek as you will find that it is talking about "the fullness, with respect to time, of the heathen gentiles, trampling the Sanctuary of God, for 2,300 years, is complete;" after which all of Israel will be saved.

In the Luke 19 parable, Jesus described that the Jews will send an embassy after Satan telling the king whom Satan has gone to get a kingdom, that they do not want Satan to be a king over them. Then a 1,000 years later when Satan returns, he will begin killing all of the saints who refuse to worship him.

If we rely on a bad translation of the Greek text to justify our understanding, then we will go off the rails of understanding concerning God's word.

 

[bbyrd009]

the etymology of "talent" was pretty amazing!


"everything you know is wrong"

 

[Truth]

Ok>> lets get down to what the bibles says about Israel and the church>> For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

"Blindness in part" and then their eyes will be opened! For the sake of the Fathers "All Israel will be Saved"! God put up with Israel for Centuries, Back sliding over and over again! BUT GOD Made a Promise to Abraham, which He will keep, He will not Repent. All Israel is not Israel, a truth, I am sure that there were some rely wicked People in the Past! Just as there are wicked people today, Israel will always be Gods Chosen people, and then those that are Grafted into the Root and Fatness of the True Olive Tree, and made the Choice to partake in the Commonwealth of Israel! which is God through the Savior!

 

[Jay Ross]

the etymology of "talent" was pretty amazing!


"everything you know is wrong"

Yes and nothing has changed.

However, where the translators have imposed their beliefs into the English translations, alarm bells ring in my spirit, and I then go looking at the original text to see if the original message has been translated within the bounds of acceptability.

I started with the word gentile in this case and quickly discovered that it was a reference to the "Heathen gentiles," and was not a reference to "Christian Gentiles' which is a different Greek word but with the same Greek root base.

So now because of this particular tradition of translation, people state that when the full number of the gentile Christian church has come into the church, that only then will Israel be saved. The implication is that the heathen gentiles cannot be saved after this time because the full number of Gentile Christians has been obtained.

I do not know about every error in the English translations, but my spirit does nudge me to investigate more closely the text before I set the words in concrete, so to speak.