The Church decided the canon. How do you know you have the correct canon?

[Dan Clarkston]

Pentecostalism is a return to the ways of the early church.

That should be built upon and not discarded.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It is like, because Hitler became a leader and decided who to persecute, God being sovereign, directed this persecutors steps right to the Jews.

Or like Pharaoh, Trump, Mandela, the Pope.

Just because the Koran was written has been preserved to this day, it doesn't mean it is being used for God's glory and pleasure.

Nature was created good and for His pleasure. But we humans worship the creation at the expense of the Creator. Not good.

Anything can become an idol and worshipped. Even the writtings of holy humans who are carried along by the very Spirit of God. I made the bible an idol and was instructed to repent of worshipping this idol.

I have come back to the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ and worship Him.

Well I am glad you stopped worshipping the bible. It was not given to mankind to worship, but to read, learn and grow in the ways that please God so we can worship God in Spirit and Truth.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Meanwhile, the Catholic Church had already drifted off-script centuries earlier, turning the Gospel into a bloated imperial system. By the time the Protestant Reformation exploded, everyone was arguing about which “canon” was valid — while forgetting to actually follow the plot.

And the Catholic Church? No pass.
They lost the plot centuries before the 1800s ever got weird.
They turned the Gospel into a power structure — selling indulgences like spiritual NFTs, torturing reformers, inventing purgatory as a money printer, and stockpiling relics like they were loot drops from God Himself.

And yet - it was the Catholic Church with its God-given Authority (Matt. 16:18, 18:15, Luke 10:16, 10:21-23) that compiled and declared the Canon of Scripture under the guidance of the holy spirit (John 16:12-15) in the 4th century.

And the Pope?

He doesn’t just sit on a throne —
He wears a triple-tiered crown once associated with Dagon, the ancient fish-god of the Philistines — a water demon whose worship stood directly opposed to the God of Israel.

You read that right:
The so-called “Vicar of Christ” wears a crown modeled after a pagan fallen angel.
And from that throne, he dares to claim he’s sitting in Peter’s seat — as if the man who died crucified upside down for his Savior would ever bless an empire of gold and corruption.

First of all - the Bishop’s miter didn’t develop into its present form until the late Middle Ages – which is LONG after all of the “Dagon worshippers” were all dead and gone. Before that, it was a shorter version.

Dagon worshippers also forbade the eating of fish, which is something the Catholic Church has NEVER done. In fact, we’ve been accused by you anti-Catholics for eating TOO MUCH fish during Lent and that the Church had a financial interest in the fish industry. Another asinine and unsubstantiated charge . . .

Your confusion stems from the fact that you are ignorant of the customs and practices of Early Christianity.

Next time you’re driving on the freeway, pay attention to some of the cars with the Christian “Fish” symbol on the back. This symbol is an ancient CHRISTIAN symbol for Christ called. “ICHTHUS”. The letters inside the fish are the Greek letters which are the initials of the words I (ēsous) Ch (ristos) th (eou) hy(ios) s (ōtēr) meaning “Jesus Christ Son of God Savior”.

Do more HOMEWORK - and do less bloviating. . .

The Vatican didn’t preserve the Gospel.
They crucified it again, then put a jeweled hat on its corpse.

WRONG - see my factual response above . . .

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Dagon worshippers also forbade the eating of fish, which is something the Catholic Church has NEVER done. In fact, we’ve been accused by you anti-Catholics for eating TOO MUCH fish during Lent and that the Church had a financial interest in the fish industry. Another asinine and unsubstantiated charge . .

Well being a nice little catholic kid in pre Vatican 2 times, I remember from my Baltimore Catechism that it was a sin to eat meat on Fridays!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And yet - it was the Catholic Church with its God-given Authority

No, it was the catholic (small c) church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that chose the canon. You give too much credit to men.

Next time you’re driving on the freeway, pay attention to some of the cars with the Christian “Fish” symbol on the back. This symbol is an ancient CHRISTIAN symbol for Christ called. “ICHTHUS”. The letters inside the fish are the Greek letters which are the initials of the words I (ēsous) Ch (ristos) th (eou) hy(ios) s (ōtēr) meaning “Jesus Christ Son of God Savior

Glad you said Christian instead of Catholic. for the church is Christian. Catholics are merely a sect of Christendom.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Catholics are merely a sect of Christendom.

Yeah, but they backslid away from following the Lord a long long time ago.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

And yet - it was the Catholic Church with its God-given Authority (Matt. 16:18, 18:15, Luke 10:16, 10:21-23) that compiled and declared the Canon of Scripture under the guidance of the holy spirit (John 16:12-15) in the 4th century.

First of all - the Bishop’s miter didn’t develop into its present form until the late Middle Ages – which is LONG after all of the “Dagon worshippers” were all dead and gone. Before that, it was a shorter version.

Dagon worshippers also forbade the eating of fish, which is something the Catholic Church has NEVER done. In fact, we’ve been accused by you anti-Catholics for eating TOO MUCH fish during Lent and that the Church had a financial interest in the fish industry. Another asinine and unsubstantiated charge . . .

Your confusion stems from the fact that you are ignorant of the customs and practices of Early Christianity.

Next time you’re driving on the freeway, pay attention to some of the cars with the Christian “Fish” symbol on the back. This symbol is an ancient CHRISTIAN symbol for Christ called. “ICHTHUS”. The letters inside the fish are the Greek letters which are the initials of the words I (ēsous) Ch (ristos) th (eou) hy(ios) s (ōtēr) meaning “Jesus Christ Son of God Savior”.

Do more HOMEWORK - and do less bloviating. . .

WRONG - see my factual response above . . .

You’re missing the forest for the fish.
No one’s arguing that acronyms like ICHTHUS weren’t used by early Christians. That’s not the point. The problem isn’t the symbol — it’s what the institution wrapped itself in after hijacking the faith.

Yes, the Church compiled the canon — and then promptly buried it beneath centuries of man-made tradition, imperial control, and financial exploitation. You want to cite John 16 and claim the Holy Spirit guided the canon? Then why didn’t that same Spirit stop popes from:

Selling indulgences to fund basilicas?
Torturing dissenters like heretics instead of loving their enemies?
Inventing purgatory, a doctrine nowhere found in that Spirit-guided canon?
Elevating Mary to near-divine status, when she herself said “my spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47)?

You want to quote Matthew 16:18 and the “rock”? Fine — but Peter also rebuked exactly this kind of spiritual abuse in Acts 8, when Simon tried to buy the power of God. The Roman Church became Simon — turning the grace of Christ into a vending machine.

As for the mitre?
Whether it evolved from Dagon iconography or not, the fact that a man in robes claims to be Christ’s earthly representative while ruling a gold-plated empire from a throne is the real problem. Jesus washed feet. He didn’t build cathedrals with the bones of saints.

If Peter walked into the Vatican today, he wouldn’t take the throne — he’d flip the tables.

And no amount of fish-symbol trivia can explain away the centuries of corruption, empire, and distortion that the Gospel had to survive — in spite of the Vatican, not because of it.

The true Church has always been the remnant — not the empire.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yeah, but they backslid away from following the Lord a long long time ago.

Well as a church denomination, yes most have. but there are still many many precious saints found in Roman Catholicism. they are just laded down with many false doctrines that keep them from knowing their full position as a believer.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Well as a church denomination, yes most have. but there are still many many precious saints found in Roman Catholicism. they are just laded down with many false doctrines that keep them from knowing their full position as a believer.

OK so it's OK to depart from God's Word and follow false doctrine then?

Why not take it even farther and just go back to living in sin and claim to be saved?

That's what more and more peeps are doing in these ends time during the falling away God told us about in His Word.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

If I were going to start a church that worshiped the Dragon and his fallen angels,
I wouldn’t announce it.
I’d wrap it in gold, drape it in robes, and chant Latin over bones.

I’d make sure it violated as many of God’s commands as possible —
Not 5… not 10…
At least 50+ deliberate perversions of truth.
Pray to the dead.
Bow to idols.
Sell salvation.
Crown a man “God on Earth.”
Turn grace into currency.
Call Mary Queen of Heaven.
Crucify Christ again—daily—on an altar.
Hide behind incense and power while children are devoured.
Rewrite the Gospel into a ritual.
Bury the Bible under a throne...

Well, I guess I'd start here;

Adorn cathedrals with fallen angels and grotesques — “You shall burn the carved images… you shall not bring a detestable thing into your house.” (Deut. 7:25–26)

Venerate Mary and saints in prayer — “Should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?” (Isa. 8:19), “There is one mediator between God and man — Christ Jesus.” (1 Tim. 2:5)

Call the pope ‘Holy Father’ — “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.”(Matt. 23:9)

Claim the pope is Christ’s Vicar — “The Spirit of truth… will guide you into all truth.” (John 16:13)

Sell indulgences — “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God.” (Acts 8:20), “By grace you have been saved through faith… not by works.” (Eph. 2:8–9)

Invent purgatory — “It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment.” (Heb. 9:27)

Require celibacy for priests — “In later times some will abandon the faith… forbidding to marry.” (1 Tim. 4:1–3)

Call Mary ever-virgin — “Is this not the carpenter’s son? Are not his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?”(Matt. 13:55–56)

Elevate tradition above Scripture — “You nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.” (Mark 7:8–9)

Use images in worship — “You shall not make for yourself a carved image... you shall not bow down to them or serve them.” (Ex. 20:4–5)

Pray to the dead — “Let no one be found among you… who consults the dead.” (Deut. 18:10–12)

Dress in gold crowns and ornate robes — “Everything they do is done for people to see... they love places of honor.”(Matt. 23:5), “Let your adornment be… not with gold or fine clothes.” (1 Pet. 3:3–4)

Store up wealth while ignoring the poor — “Your gold and silver are corroded… You have hoarded wealth in the last days.” (James 5:1–3), “Sell what you have and give to the poor.” (Matt. 19:21)

Claim sacraments dispense salvation — “Salvation is found in no one else.” (Acts 4:12), “If you confess with your mouth… you will be saved.” (Rom. 10:9)

Recite vain rosary prayers — “When you pray, do not keep on babbling… for they think they will be heard for their many words.” (Matt. 6:7)

Bless relics and bones — “Do not turn to mediums or necromancers.” (Lev. 19:31), “Why consult the dead?” (Isa. 8:19)

Play politics with kings and kingdoms — “My kingdom is not of this world.” (John 18:36)

Place a man as head of the Church — “Christ is the head of the body, the church.” (Col. 1:18)

Declare papal infallibility — “Let God be true, and every human being a liar.” (Rom. 3:4)

Accept worship of images — “I will not give My glory to another, nor My praise to carved idols.” (Isa. 42:8)

Command fasting as law — “Let no one judge you in food or in drink… or Sabbaths.” (Col. 2:16–17)

Demand confession to a priest — “If we confess our sins, He is faithful… to forgive.” (1 John 1:9), “Who can forgive sins but God alone?” (Mark 2:7)

Teach the Church itself saves — “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” (John 14:6), “If anyone preaches another gospel, let him be accursed.” (Gal. 1:8–9)

Turn communion into literal sacrifice — “We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” (Heb. 10:10)

Call Mary ‘Queen of Heaven’ — “The children gather wood… to make cakes for the Queen of Heaven. Do they provoke Me to anger?” (Jer. 7:18)

Kiss the pope’s feet — “Peter lifted him up, saying, 'Stand up; I too am a man.'” (Acts 10:25–26)

Venerate corpses of dead saints — “The dead know nothing.” (Eccl. 9:5), “Do not make any cuts in your body for the dead.” (Lev. 19:28)

Blend pagan festivals with Christian names — “What fellowship has light with darkness?” (2 Cor. 6:14–17)

Use pagan emperor titles like ‘Pontifex Maximus’ — “The greatest among you shall be your servant.” (Matt. 23:11–12)

Chant and burn incense as mystical acts — “I cannot endure your assemblies… Your incense is detestable to me.” (Isa. 1:13), “Away with the noise of your songs!” (Amos 5:21–23)

Accept money for prayers to the dead — “Her leaders judge for a bribe… Yet they lean on the Lord.” (Micah 3:11)

Claim infants are guilty and must be baptized — “The son will not share the guilt of the father.” (Ezek. 18:20), “Unless you change and become like little children…” (Matt. 18:3)

Adorn churches with sun wheels and obelisks — “They were facing east, worshiping the sun.” (Ezek. 8:16)

Place catechism above Scripture — “All Scripture is God-breathed… that the man of God may be complete.” (2 Tim. 3:16–17)

Promote unity with non-Christian religions — “Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers.” (2 Cor. 6:14), “No one comes to the Father except through Me.” (John 14:6)

Claim new revelation through the Magisterium — “Contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints.” (Jude 1:3)

Harbor sexual abusers in priesthood — “It would be better… if a millstone were hung around his neck.” (Matt. 18:6), “Though they know God’s decree… they give approval to those who practice them.” (Rom. 1:32)

Forbid laypeople from interpreting Scripture — “The Bereans examined the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was true.” (Acts 17:11), “You have no need that anyone should teach you.” (1 John 2:27)

Grant annulments to undo marriage — “What God has joined together, let no one separate.” (Mark 10:9)

Worship the Eucharist as literal flesh — “The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing.” (John 6:63), “He entered heaven… not to offer Himself again and again.” (Heb. 9:24–28)

Create a priestly hierarchy — “You are a royal priesthood.” (1 Pet. 2:9)

Make oaths to human authority — “Do not swear at all… let your yes be yes.” (Matt. 5:34–37)

Teach that suffering earns salvation — “By grace you have been saved… not by works.” (Eph. 2:8–9), “If it is by grace, then it is no longer by works.” (Rom. 11:6)

Baptize without faith or repentance — “Repent and be baptized.” (Acts 2:38), “Faith comes by hearing the word of Christ.” (Rom. 10:17)

Condemn non-Catholics as heretics — “There is neither Jew nor Gentile… for you are all one in Christ.” (Gal. 3:28), “By this all will know you are My disciples, if you love one another.” (John 13:35)

Approve Marian apparitions contradicting the Gospel — “Even if we or an angel from heaven should preach another gospel… let them be accursed.” (Gal. 1:8)

Build shrines to visions and dead saints — “You shall have no other gods before Me… nor make for yourself a carved image.” (Ex. 20:3–5)

Display bones and skulls as holy objects — “Let no one be found among you… who consults the dead.” (Deut. 18:10–12), “The dead know nothing.” (Eccl. 9:5)

Call Rome ‘Mother Church’ — “Whoever does the will of My Father… is My brother and sister and mother.” (Matt. 12:50)

Replace the Gospel with rules, rituals, and payments — “You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen from grace.” (Gal. 5:4)

Twist the Gospel into bondage — “I am afraid… just as Eve was deceived… your minds may be led astray.” (2 Cor. 11:3–4)

Exalt Rome as the seat of truth — “The hour is coming… when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.” (John 4:21–24)

Every one of these practices violates the simplicity and purity of the Gospel.
Every one is a monument to a religion of control — not the faith of the cross.
And every one stands condemned by the Word of God.

If I wanted to build a system to honor Satan in God’s name,
I’d build exactly what Rome became.
And I’d call it holy.

But heaven sees it for what it is —
Babylon, dressed like a bride, drunk on the blood of the saints.
(Rev. 17:6)

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well being a nice little catholic kid in pre Vatican 2 times, I remember from my Baltimore Catechism that it was a sin to eat meat on Fridays!

That has nothing to do with what we’re talking about.

Thanks for proving to me that you have absolutely NO response to my epic takedown of the phony “Dagon-worshipper” argument . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, it was the catholic (small c) church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that chose the canon.

No – it was the Catholic Church which is headquartered in Rome that was led by the Holy Spirit to compile and declare the Canon.
Time for a History Lesson . . .

The Synod of Rome (382) is where the canon was first formally identified – ALL 73 (not 66) Books.

- 11 years after that, it was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo (393).

- 4 years later, at the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document.

- 7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the canon.

- 14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the canon was again formally confirmed.

The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the Council of Trent in the 16th century because of the perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.

You give too much credit to men.

Nope – ALL of the credit goes to the Holy Spirit who inspired it and led His Church to declare the Canon.

Glad you said Christian instead of Catholic. for the church is Christian. Catholics are merely a sect of Christendom.

WRONG.
Lutherans, Baptists, Presbyterians, “Evangelicals”, et al - are “sects” of Christianity.

The Catholic Church is Christ’s pilgrim Church – the original Tree from which Protestantism splintered - and continues to splinter . . .

 

[One 2 question]

Well I am glad you stopped worshipping the bible. It was not given to mankind to worship, but to read, learn and grow in the ways that please God so we can worship God in Spirit and Truth.

Thanks. Yes, it's great to acknowledge and worship God, the Spirit of Truth Who plays His role in delivering God's words directly into us. And I acknowledge His occasional use of the scriptures, reminding us of what Jesus said, even the little that was documented and found its way into the various bibles.

I have come to appreciate the Source of God's words is God Himself spoken through the prophets, then through Jesus He sent and now through His SPIRIT He has sent.

Let's not grieve the Spirit but rather praise and thank Him for Who He is and what He is doing in and through us.

 

[One 2 question]

How very observant of you !

Would you like to list the improvements made to Christianity after the first century ? Improvements in the Gospel ?

The church has been growing in number and maturity. It's influence has spread throughout the globe as she is used by Christ to redeem those God has chosen from every nation, people, tribe and language.

The gifts that the Spirit has invested in each new added member of the body of Christ brings the bride closer to her competition. When the last Gentile believes and I'd added to her.

The gospel, the good news of the restoration of Satan and his new role which he will carry out from his throne on the left of God the Father AND the restoration of all who will come with him out of the lake of fire is incredible.

What a gracious, merciful, loving God we serve. That He will have mercy on ALL when He redeems and reconciles ALL to Himself.

Now this event is something to be excited about hey. And most of all, it reveals the character of God, the greatest being, LOVE!

 

[One 2 question]

Yes, he wants to hear the "new and improved gospel" that goes beyond what God's Word teaches

Again what is 'God's word' that you're refering to here.

where he has become open to all the spirits floating around who teach things that oppose God's Word leading people away from the Lord with doctrines of demons.

It's the falling away the Lord spoke of in the end times but he thinks it's enlightenment View attachment 63530

What 'things' are you refering to?

 

[Wick Stick]

I agree with you that Pentecostalism is a return to the ways of the early church.
An attempt to regain what was taken from us through unbelief.
It's a very honorable pioneering work.

[

That isn't how early Pentecostals viewed it. They agreed with the idea of the cessation of sign gifts (tongues, prophecy, etc) after the period of the apostles. They simply believed that God was restoring those gifts here in the last days, in fulfillment of...

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. (Joel 2)

Original Pentecostals believed in the "former rain" and the "latter rain." The former rain being the period of the apostles with its sign gifts, and the latter rain being the current period of last days in which those inactive gifts were restored. (To be fair, that teaching has fallen out of favor as these "last days" as dragged on for over a century now without a visible physical return of Christ.)

There IS a church movement that sought to restore the practices of the early church - the Stone-Campbell movement, but it doesn't believe much in the miraculous. It's descendants today are the Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ.

 

[One 2 question]

One 2 question said:
Why would the maturing church, the grown up body of Christ want to go back to its infancy stage? Drinking breast milk. Crawling on all fours. Speaking gibberish.

Good question.

I agree with you that Pentecostalism is a return to the ways of the early church.
An attempt to regain what was taken from us through unbelief.
It's a very honorable pioneering work.

I was surprised to read the criticism from @One 2 question

[

Was it a criticism? The work of Jesus through the Spirit in the church has been progressive. The beginning of the life of the church was crucial for the later developmental stages of her growth towards maturity and completion.

No stage is less important than another. She can't be who she is going to become without you and me (with our unique characteristics) being a part of her, that is, us today exercising the gifts she requires. Unless we perform these functions she will not become fully mature and complete.

The early church, as some call it, is very much a part of us, but the function we carry out in the curerent landscape will be somewhat, but not totally, different.

What this current generation requires the church to be for them is different to previous generations.

Yes the same demons have existed through every generation of the church's development but the tools which they use against her have changed. For example, global pandemic and vaccinations causing division, internet cyber bullying and interactive pornography, online gaming (addiction) and the list goes on.

Yet we can be sure that the same Holy Spirit continues to carry out Jesus's will for His same church.

 

[St. SteVen]

That isn't how early Pentecostals viewed it. They agreed with the idea of the cessation of sign gifts (tongues, prophecy, etc) after the period of the apostles. They simply believed that God was restoring those gifts here in the last days, in fulfillment of...

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. (Joel 2)

Original Pentecostals believed in the "former rain" and the "latter rain." The former rain being the period of the apostles with its sign gifts, and the latter rain being the current period of last days in which those inactive gifts were restored. (To be fair, that teaching has fallen out of favor as these "last days" as dragged on for over a century now without a visible physical return of Christ.)

There IS a church movement that sought to restore the practices of the early church - the Stone-Campbell movement, but it doesn't believe much in the miraculous. It's descendants today are the Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ.

That's interesting, thanks.
The Pentecostals I fellowship with aren't much for Pentecostal history outside of our own denomination.
I have encountered latter rain individuals online, but never felt akin to their ideas.

The scripture you quoted from Acts is viewed as taking place then and there.
It's a description of the outpouring, beginning at Pentecost. (see my signature line)

[

 

[Behold]

Does it scare you that the Canon of Scripture was declared by the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

THe Holy Spirit rejects the MaryCult.

This is why.

See if you can figure it out Reader.
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[Behold]

Does it scare you that the Canon of Scripture was declared by the Catholic Church

The Devil always mixes in some truth with some false, which produces the Cult, and the Cult Theology.

= Cult 101
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