The Church decided the canon. How do you know you have the correct canon?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Wick Stick

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2023
1,515
975
113
45
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Pentecostals I fellowship with aren't much for Pentecostal history outside of our own denomination.
Most of my experience is with the Assemblies of God, which was the church of my youth, and the Church of God (not the crazy one). I'm sure other churches have their own history, but most Pentecostals trace back to the Azusa Street Revival somehow or other.
The scripture you quoted from Acts is viewed as taking place then and there.
It's a description of the outpouring, beginning at Pentecost. (see my signature line)

[
Acts quotes from the prophet Joel, and yes... Acts is certainly applying it to the events on the literal Day of Pentecost. And Joel was probably applying it to events in his own day.

Prophecies have a way of being re-filled. That isn't a problem for me.
 

rebuilder 454

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2023
3,748
920
113
69
robstown
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Most Pentecostal churches are freaky deaky. View attachment 63495

Last time I went to one they had the pastor's wife preaching (she appeared to be the one wearing the pants in their family) and then the pastor wanted to pray over me and then he tried to push me down to make it look like I had been "slain in the spirit" which is not biblical as they teach it.

In the Bible those that fell down backwards were enemies of the Lord... those the the Lord favored fell frontwards bowing down to Him in worship and honored the Lord.
Acts 9
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Maybe Jesus forgot to read your memo
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

rebuilder 454

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2023
3,748
920
113
69
robstown
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Most Pentecostal churches are freaky deaky. View attachment 63495

Last time I went to one they had the pastor's wife preaching (she appeared to be the one wearing the pants in their family) and then the pastor wanted to pray over me and then he tried to push me down to make it look like I had been "slain in the spirit" which is not biblical as they teach it.

In the Bible those that fell down backwards were enemies of the Lord... those the the Lord favored fell frontwards bowing down to Him in worship and honored the Lord.
Acts 9
3. And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Maybe Jesus did not get your memo
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

rebuilder 454

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2023
3,748
920
113
69
robstown
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
One 2 question said:
Why would the maturing church, the grown up body of Christ want to go back to its infancy stage? Drinking breast milk. Crawling on all fours. Speaking gibberish.

Good question.

I agree with you that Pentecostalism is a return to the ways of the early church.
An attempt to regain what was taken from us through unbelief.
It's a very honorable pioneering work.

I was surprised to read the criticism from @One 2 question

[
It was Jesus that commanded the disciples to tarry in Jerusalem until they were endued with power, and that is the pattern of the church, from then, all the way to now, The same pattern of salvation, and then receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which turns a "mental gospel treck to heaven" into a Holy Ghost adventure on earth.

In the first advent, Jesus emptied himself and became a man, and did no ministry, and did no miracles until He got the baptism in Holy Ghost.
That same protocol and pattern applies today.
There is no difference at all
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
15,241
4,504
113
70
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
OK so it's OK to depart from God's Word and follow false doctrine then?

Why not take it even farther and just go back to living in sin and claim to be saved?

That's what more and more peeps are doing in these ends time during the falling away God told us about in His Word.
I never said it is okay to knowingly live in false doctrine. Calm down man. We all have false doctrine, but just don't know it because none of us are in our experience perfect yet.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,796
3,628
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You’re missing the forest for the fish.
No one’s arguing that acronyms like ICHTHUS weren’t used by early Christians. That’s not the poin
t. The problem isn’t the symbol — it’s what the institution wrapped itself in after hijacking the faith.
WRONG.

YOU’RE the one who dishonestly attributed the Pope’s mitre to “Dagon-worship” – and now you’re
back-pedaling . . .
Yes, the Church compiled the canon — and then promptly buried it beneath centuries of man-made tradition, imperial control, and financial exploitation.
On the contrary – it was the Church who evangelized the world, toppling the Roman Empire in the process while virtually wiping out paganism.
You want to cite John 16 and claim the Holy Spirit guided the canon? Then why didn’t that same Spirit stop popes from:
Selling indulgences to fund basilicas?
Torturing dissenters like heretics instead of loving their enemies?
Inventing purgatory, a doctrine nowhere found in that Spirit-guided canon?
Elevating Mary to near-divine status, when she herself said “my spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47)?
First of all – ANY institution where sinful humans are involved will experience hardship because of our sinful nature – including YOURS. This goes for EVERY SINGLE institution ever created - without exception.

That being said - the Church NEVER promoted or approved the selling of Indulgences. This was an abuse by individuals like Johanne Tetzel in Germany.

Torturing heretics was largely a matter of governments. Heresy was treated as treason against the state and dealt with harshly.

Purgatory (Final Purification) is indeed a Scripturally-based doctrine.
We are told in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that the day (judgment) will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed: “If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

This cannot be Heaven because the person will SUFFER ‐ and there is NO suffering in Heaven.
This cannot be Hell because the person will be SAVED ‐ ad there is NO salvation in Hell.
This is describing a THIRD state – a state of Final Purification.

Additionally, Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there is purification after death for some. Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine

You want to quote Matthew 16:18 and the “rock”? Fine — but Peter also rebuked exactly this kind of spiritual abuse in Acts 8, when Simon tried to buy the power of God. The Roman Church became Simon — turning the grace of Christ into a vending machine.
Nonsense.

NOBODY is trying to “buy” anything. We just don’t play the “Denial Game” as it pertains to Peter being the Rock of Matt. 16.

As for the mitre?
Whether it evolved from Dagon iconography or not, the fact that a man in robes claims to be Christ’s earthly representative while ruling a gold-plated empire from a throne is the real problem. Jesus washed feet. He didn’t build cathedrals with the bones of saints.

If Peter walked into the Vatican today, he wouldn’t take the throne — he’d flip the tables.

And no amount of fish-symbol trivia can explain away the centuries of corruption, empire, and distortion that the Gospel had to survive — in spite of the Vatican, not because of it.
The mitre didn’t evolve from ANYTHING other than the Early Christian “ICHTHUS “symbol.
Do your homework instead of vomiting out the same, tired falsehoods.

As for your objection to the Pope representing Christ on earth – READ your Bible.
We are ALL supposed to be ambassadors of Christ on earth (2 Cor. 5:20) as His
co-workers (1 Cori. 3:9-17)
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
15,241
4,504
113
70
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That has nothing to do with what we’re talking about.

Thanks for proving to me that you have absolutely NO response to my epic takedown of the phony “Dagon-worshipper” argument . . .
Well don't break your arm patting yo0urself on the back. I was talking about your lie that the Catholic church made eating meat on friday a sin. Besides when they decided to wear a dagon hat matters little, they just did!

Yes​

Yes, Dagon priests wore a mitre-like hat. The mitre hat of Dagon priests resembled an open mouth of a fish, symbolizing their worship of the god. This hat is also associated with the mitre worn by Catholic bishops today, which has roots in the mitre of Dagon2. The mitre represents the head of Dagon, with an open mouth, and has been used in various forms throughout history, including in the Catholic Church4.
No – it was the Catholic Church which is headquartered in Rome that was led by the Holy Spirit to compile and declare the Canon.
Time for a History Lesson . . .

The Synod of Rome (382) is where the canon was first formally identified – ALL 73 (not 66) Books.

- 11 years after that, it was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo (393).

- 4 years later, at the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document.
The roman Catholic church did not exist yet. Siricius (384-399) was the first in the west to call Himself Pope.

The church was still divided between Jewish and Gentile and East and West with Heraclas in Alexandria taking on the title of Pope for the growing coptic churches.
 
Last edited:

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,796
3,628
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
THe Holy Spirit rejects the MaryCult.

This is why.

See if you can figure it out Reader.
-
-
The Devil always mixes in some truth with some false, which produces the Cult, and the Cult Theology.

= Cult 101
Wow - TWO empty responses, yet not a single acknowledgement that YOUR Bible was compiled declared and preserved by the Catholic Church

That's GOTTA hurt . . .
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
15,241
4,504
113
70
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the Council of Trent in the 16th century because of the perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.
You mean like the Apocrypha and deuterocanonical?

From Catholic Answers:

This is a myth that always comes up but is simple to answer. At the Council of Rome in 382, the Church decided upon a canon of 46 Old Testament books and 27 in the New Testament. This decision was ratified by the councils at Hippo (393), Carthage (397, 419), II Nicea (787), Florence (1442), and Trent (1546).

This is what you would call the protestant bible of 66 books. The others faqll into pseudopigrapha.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
15,241
4,504
113
70
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
WRONG.
Lutherans, Baptists, Presbyterians, “Evangelicals”, et al - are “sects” of Christianity.

The Catholic Church is Christ’s pilgrim Church – the original Tree from which Protestantism splintered - and continues to splinter . .
Actually it is the Jewish Church which all churches splintered off of! Romans 11 shows that. the church was born in Jerusalem and first was planted in Israel.
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
12,575
5,782
113
68
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Protestants have 66 books, we have 76 in Orthodoxy. A lot of times people say God decided the canon of the Bible and while we can all agree, it is still avoiding the question as to when and how God did it. Famous Protestant scholars F.F. Bruce and Lee McDonald show in their books on the formation of the canon that there was no fixed OT canon and that the early church fathers had differing canons, many of which included the apocrypha.

A common answer Protestants give when asked about how they know the correct canon is citing the book of John where it says we are guided by the Holy Spirit. However, this is presupposing that the book of John belongs in the canon when in fact the question is prior or a priori to Scripture. We cannot go to the scriptures to tell us what the correct canon is when the canon itself is what’s in question along with the book of John.

If the Church truly went rogue as the reformers claimed, then wouldn’t it be conceivable for all of us come to up with our own canon on that basis? If I said the Bible is just the first four books of the New Testament, who would anyone be to tell me I’m wrong?

It only makes sense that there is a historical Church because Christ himself lived in history. Christianity and the Bible cannot be divorced from its history.

You are mostly right….It is the history of it that people do not know. God chose the Canon? No.

The Ecumenical Councils were under the order of the Emperor Constantine to “standardize” their beliefs to develop one true faith.

You had all these “overseers” meaning leaders of the various “churches” of Christianity called to these Ecumenical Councils....Overseers....no Popes or Bishops at this time.

And they had their favorite texts. There was a group of texts that were favored by most churches. The word Canon imply official….but there is nothing official at this time. There was a common list ….best to call it a list and God did not come down and sign off on it. And the Ecumenical Councils accepted this list, they did not produce this list. Accepted the list still knowing that various churches retained some favorite texts like the Shepherd of Hermas.

The Protestants more or less accepted this original list. The Catholic Church added a few texts and added a few things to the texts…..no harm in this.

The list was accepted by the Ecumenical Councils….The Catholic Church was still forming adopting a common thought….that being that Christianity was a “universal church” ergo Catholic. That is why the word Catholic appears in the creeds….not that the creeds point to the Catholic Church.

There is no church buildings…..when you read church in the scriptures it means congregations.

Now a days the existing “none canonical” texts are available to read.
 

The Gospel of Christ

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2025
490
267
63
54
Virginia
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
WRONG.

YOU’RE the one who dishonestly attributed the Pope’s mitre to “Dagon-worship” – and now you’re
back-pedaling . . .

On the contrary – it was the Church who evangelized the world, toppling the Roman Empire in the process while virtually wiping out paganism.

First of all – ANY institution where sinful humans are involved will experience hardship because of our sinful nature – including YOURS. This goes for EVERY SINGLE institution ever created - without exception.

That being said - the Church NEVER promoted or approved the selling of Indulgences. This was an abuse by individuals like Johanne Tetzel in Germany.

Torturing heretics was largely a matter of governments. Heresy was treated as treason against the state and dealt with harshly.

Purgatory (Final Purification) is indeed a Scripturally-based doctrine.
We are told in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that the day (judgment) will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed: “If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

This cannot be Heaven because the person will SUFFER ‐ and there is NO suffering in Heaven.
This cannot be Hell because the person will be SAVED ‐ ad there is NO salvation in Hell.
This is describing a THIRD state – a state of Final Purification.

Additionally, Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there is purification after death for some. Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine


Nonsense.

NOBODY is trying to “buy” anything. We just don’t play the “Denial Game” as it pertains to Peter being the Rock of Matt. 16.

The mitre didn’t evolve from ANYTHING other than the Early Christian “ICHTHUS “symbol.
Do your homework instead of vomiting out the same, tired falsehoods.

As for your objection to the Pope representing Christ on earth – READ your Bible.
We are ALL supposed to be ambassadors of Christ on earth (2 Cor. 5:20) as His
co-workers (1 Cori. 3:9-17)


You can shout in bold font and oversized text all you want — it doesn’t resurrect the dead gospel buried under centuries of corruption.

You keep parroting “the Church evangelized the world,” but here’s the truth: the apostles evangelized the world with the blood of martyrs, not the gold of basilicas. The early Church grew in catacombs — not in cathedrals lined with indulgence coins and saint bones.

Jesus said: “Freely you have received, freely give.” — Matthew 10:8
The Vatican said: “Pay us, and we’ll spring your loved ones from purgatory.”

Let’s be real: You claim the “Church never promoted indulgences”?
Go read Pope Leo X's 1517 bull "Exsurge Domine". He explicitly upheld indulgences while condemning Luther for opposing them. That wasn’t Tetzel going rogue — that was the papacy cashing in on salvation.

You say purgatory is “scriptural”? That’s eisegesis at its finest.

1 Corinthians 3:15 doesn’t describe a place — it describes a testing of works, not souls. The “fire” reveals the value of one’s labor, not the burning off of sins. That’s allegory — not afterlife real estate.

And Matthew 12:32? It says what won’t happen — it does not imply an intermediate state. That’s the same logic as saying “you won’t be forgiven in this life or the next… unless you pay us first.” That’s medieval manipulation, not sound doctrine.

Let’s talk mitres.
It may have started with ICHTHUS —
but today that symbol is slapped onto a Roman religious machine that sells grace by the ounce,
crucifies Christ again and again on a golden altar,
and is drenched in fallen angel symbolism from top to bottom.

Cathedrals lined with gargoyles.
Altars built over bones.
Mitres shaped like pagan crowns.
Sunbursts, obelisks, and occult geometry infused into “sacred” architecture.
Statues of “saints” venerated like demigods.
And a throne — a literal throne — reserved for a man who dares call himself the "Holy Father."

This isn’t Christianity.
It’s a cosmic mockery — a dragon in white robes.

And every time someone bows to it,
they’re not honoring Christ —
they’re honoring the system that tried to replace Him.

Whether it traces back to Dagon or some designer bishop in the Middle Ages — Jesus never wore one. Peter never wore one.
But the high priest of Babylon did. So what's that tell you?
So when a man sits on a throne, wears a crown, claims to speak infallibly for God, and rules over nations — it’s not “apostolic succession,” it’s the spirit of antichrist in liturgical cosplay.

He who would be greatest among you must be the servant of all.” — Matthew 23:11
Your “vicar” lives in a palace, wears crimson robes, and sits on a golden throne. You do the math.

Peter would walk into the Vatican, see it dripping in blood, relics, and empire…
And he wouldn’t bow — he’d start flipping tables.

You keep citing 2 Corinthians 5:20 to defend the Pope’s title as ambassador.
Sure. We’re all ambassadors.
But no ambassador claims to be the literal King.
The Pope doesn’t just represent Christ — he usurps Him.

“Vicar of Christ”?
Try anti-Christ. Because no man replaces the Son of God on Earth.

In the end, the Gospel didn’t survive because of Rome —
it survived in spite of her.

While your institution was torturing believers and burning them alive for daring to read Scripture,
real Christians were hiding underground, copying Bibles by candlelight,
bleeding to preserve the truth your empire tried to bury under gold, Latin, and fear.

The Vatican didn’t carry the Gospel.
It tried to kill it

But it rose anyway —
because Christ doesn’t need a throne, a robe, or a mitre.
He needs only the Cross — and the hearts of those who follow it.

So maybe it’s you who needs to stop vomiting tired defenses
—and finally open the Bible you keep telling others to read.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

Dan Clarkston

Well-Known Member
Dec 16, 2023
2,566
946
113
55
Denver Colorado
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Again what is 'God's word' that you're refering to here.

Those that believe the Lord has FAILED to see to it His Word was put in to written form... are deceived by devils.


What 'things' are you refering to?

False doctrine... things not in agreement with the Doctrine of Christ as taught in the New Testament.


The work of jesus through the spirit in the church has been progressive.

Uh huh, and the "spirit" you speak of has brought forth the falling away where false doctrine is what the majority of pastors and chureches teach these days such as all future sins have already been forgiven, once saved always saved, gay "christians", drunk "christians", pot smoking "christians", new age "christians", witches and warlocks claiming to be "christians", and the normalization of iniquity as being no big deal

This has all been brought forth by a different "jesus" teaching a different "gospel" than what the Lord teaches in His Word.

The different "jesus" and different "gospel" is a reference to demons teaching religious though that people accept as being from the Lord not understanding or realizing they are following doctrines of demons who teach contrary to what the Lord teaches in His Word.

People following the zeitgeist will be cut off and will not be found in God's Kingdom.

A word to the wise should be sufficient... but rarely is.
 

Dan Clarkston

Well-Known Member
Dec 16, 2023
2,566
946
113
55
Denver Colorado
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Acts 9
3. And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Maybe Jesus did not get your memo

He fell forward in submission and surrender unto the Lord.

He did not fall backwards laying on his back playing like he was receiving some blessing from the Lord like the fake "slain in the spirit" claims we see in some churches today
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
21,097
8,323
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
Wow - TWO empty responses, yet not a single acknowledgement that YOUR Bible was compiled declared and preserved by the Catholic Church

That's GOTTA hurt . . .

As i explained to you previously...

Satan's finest work, is not just Hamas murdering Jews in their homes Oct 7, '23....or Hitler casting Jews into burning ovens......no no.....the Devil's finest work, is THEOLOGY and CULTS... that "seems true". and deceive Billions, currently.
So what He does, is He uses some "Christian" truth and mixes in some Untruth..
For example the Canon of the Scripture was not decided by Man, it was decided by God, using men.
See that? That is "God presevering His Word"......that is...."God's word endureth forever"....
And God can use anything to cause that..., and did, as its the message that matters, not the messingers.

So, in that Case, while the " scripture canon" is of God, the MaryCult is nothing less than one of Satan's 3 finest creations, with 2 of them being a ever spreading religious cancer in the world that pretends its '""of God""., and #3, is not a Christian cult, its a Middle Eastern Cult.

1.) Catholic Church

2.) Calvinism as Hyper-Calvinism

3.) Islam
 
Last edited:

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
15,241
4,504
113
70
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Thanks. Yes, it's great to acknowledge and worship God, the Spirit of Truth Who plays His role in delivering God's words directly into us. And I acknowledge His occasional use of the scriptures, reminding us of what Jesus said, even the little that was documented and found its way into the various bibles.

I have come to appreciate the Source of God's words is God Himself spoken through the prophets, then through Jesus He sent and now through His SPIRIT He has sent.

Let's not grieve the Spirit but rather praise and thank Him for Who He is and what He is doing in and through us.
As long as these teachings you are recieivng as you claim from the Holy Spirit do not contradict the written word, fine. Otherwise they are false teachings from angles of light sent to imprison you in false doctrine.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,796
3,628
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I already torpedoed this "Dagon-worship" nonsense as it pertains to the miter.
People who perpetuate this garbage are ignorant of Christian history.

Why don't you Google "Ichthus" and learn something about your Christian roots . . .

The roman Catholic church did not exist yet. Siricius (384-399) was the first in the west to call Himself Pope.

The church was still divided between Jewish and Gentile and East and West with Heraclas in Alexandria taking on the title of Pope for the growing coptic churches.
Time for a HISTORY Lesson . . .

- In the Epistle of Clement (80 AD) – Clement, the Bishop of Rome (Pope) he settles a matter in the Church at Corinth and orders them to obey.

- In Tertullian’s his treatise, Di Pudicitia (218 AD), he wrote the following about Pope Callistus I:
“I hear that there has even been an edict set forth, and a peremptory one too. The Pontifex Maximus -that is, the bishop of bishops -issues an edict: "I remit, to such as have discharged (the requirements of) repentance, the sins both of adultery and of fornication."

- Pope Victor I, who reigned from 180-199, settled the matter of the Quartodeciman Controversy.

- In the 2nd centuryIrenaeus in his Against Heresies, lists all of the Popes from his own time all the way back to Peter.

- Respected Protestant historian, J.N.D. Kelley in his Oxford Dictionary of Popes l;ists all of the Popes, starting with Peter.

So much for your phony time frame of "384-399" . . .
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
21,097
8,323
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
- In the 2nd centuryIrenaeus in his Against Heresies, lists all of the Popes from his own time all the way back to Peter.



Urban V and Clement VII were popes at the same time in different places. This split papacy, known as the Western Schism, endured from 1379-1417.

God has no 'Pope".......as this is a man made cult creation.
Peter was given this title by a Cult that has continued the heresy, and will continue it along with "Mary Adoration" False thology.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,796
3,628
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You can shout in bold font and oversized text all you want — it doesn’t resurrect the dead gospel buried under centuries of corruption.

You keep parroting “the Church evangelized the world,” but here’s the truth: the apostles evangelized the world with the blood of martyrs, not the gold of basilicas. The early Church grew in catacombs — not in cathedrals lined with indulgence coins and saint bones.

Jesus said: “Freely you have received, freely give.” — Matthew 10:8
The Vatican said: “Pay us, and we’ll spring your loved ones from purgatory.”
The Martyrs were Catholics.

On the way to his martyrdom - Apostolic Father, Ignatius of Antioch wrote about the Eucharist, the Real Presence, obedience to the “Catholic Church”, the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, etc. Virtually EVERY Pope ini the first 400 years was martyred for the faith.

Let’s be real: You claim the “Church never promoted indulgences”?
Go read Pope Leo X's 1517 bull "Exsurge Domine". He explicitly upheld indulgences while condemning Luther for opposing them. That wasn’t Tetzel going rogue — that was the papacy cashing in on salvation.
He upheld the TEACHING of Indulgences – NOT the sale of them.
SEELLING them was an abuse by Tetzel and others.

You say purgatory is “scriptural”? That’s eisegesis at its finest.

1 Corinthians 3:15 doesn’t describe a place — it describes a testing of works, not souls. The “fire” reveals the value of one’s labor, not the burning off of sins. That’s allegory — not afterlife real estate.

And Matthew 12:32? It says what won’t happen — it does not imply an intermediate state. That’s the same logic as saying “you won’t be forgiven in this life or the next… unless you pay us first.” That’s medieval manipulation, not sound doctrine.
I never said that Purgatory was a "place".
Final Purification
is a state - a process. And, as I showed you - it's can't be Heaven or Hell - but it is absolutely referring to Judgement ("the Day")

Let’s talk mitres.
It may have started with ICHTHUS —
but today that symbol is slapped onto a Roman religious machine that sells grace by the ounce,
crucifies Christ again and again on a golden altar,
and is drenched in fallen angel symbolism from top to bottom.

Cathedrals lined with gargoyles.
Altars built over bones.
Mitres shaped like pagan crowns.
Sunbursts, obelisks,
and occult geometry infused into “sacred” architecture.
Statues of “saints” venerated like demigods.
And a throne — a literal throne — reserved for a man who dares call himself the "Holy Father."

This isn’t Christianity.
It’s a cosmic mockery — a dragon in white robes.
You never learn, do you? You continue to vomit out your “Dagon/Mitre lie even though you’ve been corrected.

As for the Obelisk ini St. Peter’s Square – it remains there as a symbol of VICTORY.

Ever wonder WHY there is a cross at the top? It symbolizes the victory of the cross over paganism. It’s a beautiful reminder – for those of us who don’t wallow in ignorance and hate . . .

“Sunbursts”??
How about the GLORY of God??
How else do you design beams of light emanating from a statue??
When a monstrance design shows

Your disgust with ornate Cathedrals is reminiscent of Judas, who complained about extravagance aimed at Jesus. Did Jesus agree with him – NO – He rebuked him and reminded him of WHO is being served by the extravagance.

Did God condemn Solomon for building the Temple and filling it with statures and holy symbolism?
NO
– He was pleased and came down and BLESSED it.


We give God out very BEST – in matters of faith, in our works and in what He has made us stewards of.
The Vatican didn’t carry the Gospel.
And the fact remains that without the Church YOU wouldn’t have a Bible.

The Bible came out of the ChurchNOT the other way around . . .