the Church in the Tribulation

[IAmAWitness]

The question was asked on the forum recently, and touched on in several posts of why the Church will not experience the Great Tribulation. To paraphrase, many argue that the Church is not appointed to wrath, that a Rapture will be waiting to rescue us, that we will not see the hour of temptation. The following is a point I have never seen used to defend posttribulationism.

In the last days, many countries will be experiencing very serious turmoil. At this time, many of God's children will be brought to Jerusalem. I believe a large number of Americans will be brought to Israel. God's word to His people in America says at Jeremiah 51:50,

"Ye that have escaped the sword, go away, stand not still: remember the LORD afar off, and let Jerusalem come into your mind."

The reason God will be calling His people to Jerusalem in a minute. But first, it should be recalled that the 2,520 day period of Tribulation is marked off by the signing of the seven-year treaty spoken of at Daniel 9:27. In the midst of this week, the treaty will be broken and the abomination of desolation will occur. This is what Christ said at Matthew 24:15,16,

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains..."

Jesus warns us to flee into the mountains in the east because this is a divinely protected area where the Church will be protected. Daniel 11:41,

"He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon."

These regions will escape out of the hand of the king of the north, who the New Testament calls the beast. It will be the Second Exodus, the Exodus of the Church, our wilderness experience. God will foster a sense of total reliance in this day, where we will be so helpless and broken and incapable of providing that it is only by the grace of God that we survive. It will require total faith and reliance that cannot be attained by the Church any other way. I believe that in this day we will be provided manna and that there may be a pseudo-Moses who leads us.

The reason we will experience the Tribulation is very simple: The Church will be made perfect in weakness and made complete and mature through its perseverance. The role of the Tribulation is for God to bring the Bride to a stage of development where it will be worthy to be united to His Son.

 

[tgwprophet]

Prophecy notes that there will be a falling away of the churches. I do not contend the churches will be spared any wrath. For rain falls on the just and the un-just alike.
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" When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, " - I wanted to change font color here but the post features are all faded and not operating - is there a setting I can change?

This one I have difficulty with as the Abomination of Desolation takes placee at the Temple, yet it says when you see it stand there? Can anyone clarify this?

 

[Pharmboy]

It is my belief that the book of Revelation explains WHY Christians are going through the great tribulation (why we must be here to experience wars, famine, disease and death/hades: the covenant curses). If you compare the trumpets and bowls they align with one another quite well. One (trumpets) represent the calling of anyone who will to repentance. The other (bowls) represent the judgment of those who will not repent. One is a purification, the other a destruction. We are 1)being purified and 2)acting as witnesses against those who will not repent. I dont understand this mentality among Christians that if it is hard and painful and threatening then God must get us out of here. What about the 2,000 years of Christian persecution? Christians were starved to death, pulled into peices, roasted, burned, flayed alive, tortured for months on end until they died. Why do we get a break when they didnt? The worst thing that can happen to a Christian is death, unless he denies the Savior. Rapture theology is recent in Christian theological circles and is not accepted in MOST Christian denominations. It doesn't even make any sense. The verses that describe it are easily and have always been interpreted to refer to the second coming of Christ. That being said, I do believe that there will come a point when the church is no longer on the earth, but not because we were whicked away magically in the night. Rather as the scripture teaches the beast will make war on us and will overcome (Rev 13:7) us. That is destroy us (the two witnesses are killed = the church is overcome).

 

[IAmAWitness]

Prophecy notes that there will be a falling away of the churches. I do not contend the churches will be spared any wrath. For rain falls on the just and the un-just alike.
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" When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, " - I wanted to change font color here but the post features are all faded and not operating - is there a setting I can change?

This one I have difficulty with as the Abomination of Desolation takes placee at the Temple, yet it says when you see it stand there? Can anyone clarify this?

My guess is what this would have meant to the middle English speaker is that when is is "standed" in the holy place, "then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains."

There was who I believe to be a young man from a high profile family who spoke on several websites about this one prophecy. He had been experiencing inner turmoil over his families multi-generational Satanic worship and later, I discovered that he had finally given over to full Satanic practice. He said his understanding that this abomination would be an image, such as those spoken of in the Second Commandment, whereby homage/veneration would be paid to this image and the Antichrist would be worshipped.

I am lost as to the meaning of this:

Revelation 13:15 "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

 

[Pharmboy]

The "image" here is meant to be compared to the image of God in Genesis. The word image also translates as idol, it is a play on words (the Bible often does this, saying and meaning two different things so that they can be compared/contrasted). God has only ever had one image, a living breathing man/woman (since both are made in the image of God from Genesis 1). We are to be His image and modeled after the likeness of Christ, who is the perfect image of the living God. This "image" in Revelation has the ability to speak. Contrast this to the images (idols) criticized in the OT, that can neither speak nor hear nor see, and those who worship them are like them (GK Beale has published extensively on this subject). This is an "image" made NOT after the image of God that can speak, it is an unapproved idol. Probably a man (what is supposed to be the true image of God) who has been fashioned after the likeness of the beast instead. It is this man (antiChrist) who will have the power to kill those who do not conform to HIS image rather than the image of God (the actual destruction of the church on earth because the Dragon is given the power to overcome them). The Dragon likely represents death itself.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Pharmboy.

The "image" here is meant to be compared to the image of God in Genesis. The word image also translates as idol, it is a play on words (the Bible often does this, saying and meaning two different things so that they can be compared/contrasted). God has only ever had one image, a living breathing man/woman (since both are made in the image of God from Genesis 1). We are to be His image and modeled after the likeness of Christ, who is the perfect image of the living God. This "image" in Revelation has the ability to speak. Contrast this to the images (idols) criticized in the OT, that can neither speak nor hear nor see, and those who worship them are like them (GK Beale has published extensively on this subject). This is an "image" made NOT after the image of God that can speak, it is an unapproved idol. Probably a man (what is supposed to be the true image of God) who has been fashioned after the likeness of the beast instead. It is this man (antiChrist) who will have the power to kill those who do not conform to HIS image rather than the image of God (the actual destruction of the church on earth because the Dragon is given the power to overcome them). The Dragon likely represents death itself.

Sorry, but that's just too much allegorical thinking. The "Dragon" (Greek: "drakoon" = "lizard; reptile") "represents" haSatan, the Enemy himself, not "death!" Furthermore, "image" (Greek: "eikoon" = "likeness; statue") in Revelation isn't ANYTHING like the "image of God" in Genesis! You're trying to draw from some sort of parallelism that DOESN'T EXIST! Careful with that kind of thinking!

By the way, GK Beale means nothing to me; I don't know the person, even though it sounds like he's some kind of hero to you. "Let God be true, and EVERY man a liar!"

 

[Pharmboy]

John borrows heavily from the Old Testament (and sources outside the current protestant scriptural canon as well) and has a conspicuously strong theological background rooted in Second Temple Judaism (as he uses the exact same imagery that is used in a number of other Jewish apocalyptic writings, written well before or about the same time as the book of Revelation). The parallels are not only prolific but obvious. I am sorry you cannot see them, it really helps in properly interpreting the book.

 

[John_8:32]

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Some will be protected in a place of safety, yet others will not.

Some are...

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Some are not...

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 

[Brothertom]

WHY?


"Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” [Multitudes that cannot be numbered from every tribe, tongue and nation...]

And I said to him, “Sir,you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones WHO COME OUT of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them."

To come out, you must first go in. We will enter into this event, this time. Why? To test who you love; either Christ Jesus & His truth, or your own life & lusts.

"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." This "Hour of Trial IS the tribulation period before Jesus' return.

" Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown!"

It will come to America too; I believe it will be Muslim, & Bowing down to Allah as Lord will save you to live, & buy & sell.....but guarantee your eternity in Perdition.

"And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God.

They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying:
“Great and marvelous are Your works,
Lord God Almighty!
Just and true are Your ways,
O King of the saints!"

This is where the beheading comes in & the endurance & patience of the Saints..& what faith really is. Do we believe we will be with the Lord when we die for Him? This is the WHY of the Great Tribulation. It seems to be accelorated..doesn't it?

Jesus allows the Anti-Christ to rise..to prove faith, one way or another....& then annihilates him as He stops time, & steps out of Eternity to bring His wrath on the offenders......forever...& exalt us...those who faithfully endure.

"Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life!"
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”

Let us comfort one another with this scripture.

 

[michaelvpardo]

There is comfort in the knowledge that we belong to Him, but we also need to answer the call to service with whatever gifts God has given us, for the purpose of building His body, the Church, into a mature man. We aren't saved to be served, but to serve each other in His love, and in this demonstrate His love to an unbelieving and dying world, so that all who would be saved would seek Him through us. If you want to know someone, you usually need to be introduced by someone who already knows the person. God has also chosen this means to save men. The Father sent the Son so that we may know the Father through the Son. The Son sent the Spirit so that we may know the Son through Him. Now, God sends us to the world, so that the world may know Him through us. Our own imperfection makes us a poor witness, but we draw strength from one another in the body of Christ. We have a collective testimony that is far greater than that of each member. To the extent that they accepted Him, they will accept us, and to the extent that He was hated and rejected, so we too will be hated and rejected. This is not for the weak of heart, but our strength is to be found in our love for one another, which is an expression of His love for us.
If any of you out there are Lone Rangers, its time to get with the program. If you have wisdom, the body needs wisdom. If you own a gift to help, the body needs help. If comfort or encouragement, these are invaluble gifts that shouldn't be hidden away (or buried in a field,) but openly used and freely given. We don't always know what God has given us until we see a need and respond to it, so look for a need and act to demonstrate the love of God. God is not a debtor to us, but we are to Him, and there is no fear in doing good.

 

[tgwprophet]

Pharmboy.. the two witnesses are not the church or churches.. they are two people..humnas. I have often times read where people associate these two people as bieng either the New and Old testament or this or these churches. but they are just two lolly people God has selected to empower that they may entreat the world to a rude awakwening... a rude awakwening that the world will not accept. I have often offered that anyone upon providing a proper test for these two prophets that are the two witnesses, I will reveal them that they can be tested. I am not the only person that knows these two, just the only one in this forum that knows them. I find myself with one of these two everyday and most days I am with both of them. I cannot help how this appears to anyone willing to use denial without proof as a weapon, but the truth in what I said remains.

Since they are two people, certainly they must have originated from somewhere and they must be someplace. ok... there are near me. If that makes me appear as though I am trying to elevate myself... don;t let it for I am definately not doing this for any status what so ever. I do think that I should not fear letting others know of this and if a proper test were developed then they would be known to all here and i think that could be a good thng, and is why I have given this information.

Soon their time will start... then testing is no longer needed nor available. The test must be for proof before their time of power commences. I never said development of this test would be easy and if I knew how to test them before they are given power - I would have come forward with the test myself. But I do not need to test them. for God showed me who they are in a vision that had anyone been beside me they would know what I know and would be in complete agreement.

 

[Pharmboy]

I think it can be shown that they are not two literal individuals, that they are taken straight out of the Old Testament.
1. Deu 17:6 - two witnesses are required to have someone put to death
2. Isaiah 43:9-12 - two witnesses called to testify at the judgment of the nations

Who are they (the two witnesses)? This is also found in the OT! Zech 3-4 describes the offices of Zerubbabel (King) and Joshua (Preist), describing them as olive trees and lampstands, just as they are described in the book of Revelation. The two witnesses are 1) a King and 2) a Preist. Who is called to be kings and priests in the earth? Rev 1:6 says WE ARE! And they are killed just as it is stated that the book of the Revelation (compare Rev 11:7, 12:17, 13:7). They may also be contrasted to the two horns on the head of the beast that rises out of the earth (a different anti-type of king and priest).

hope this helps!

 

[tgwprophet]

Helps? Sorry but the Two Witnesses are (understand this... there are extremely few times that I will state without exception the way this or that is - this is one of those times ) people.. they are not kings they are not priests - unless their postion changes from what they are today (and I expect it will not change as they do not wish to alter thier current postions), they are ordinary people, they are Gentiles and They are Christians. Like I said before... I know them, I see them ..I even teach them, at least one of them every single day. Come up with a proper test and I will reveal them. In other words.... on this issue... it is not a guess!!! period... it is fact. Any person declaring for whatever reason different from this...is simply wrong..period. Sorry, but this is true. Understand this, I did not learn this through research, prayer nor was told by them... God showed me this in broad daylight and not some small thing, or something that could be mistaken for something else and had you been beside me... you wuold know this truth as adamantly as do I. All the Trolls claiming this or that do not allow for testing.. I do.

 

[Pharmboy]

I used to know two brothers who claimed to be the two witnesses. A lot of people believed it and joined thier cult until one of them died of liver cancer. I can safely assume there are a few people who would love to claim to be someone written about in prophesy. Good luck with that.

 

[tgwprophet]

Surely many have made false claims, but that does not mean I did. Because of all the false claims I allow for allot of room for denial without me bieng crass. For this same reason I also tell you and all that read this... that I will reveal them if anyone can produce a proper test. I will even assist in editing any test showing a possibility of being a proper test. Furthermore, I am asking no one to join any cult... I do not have a cult, want a cult nor ever intending on starting a cult. and this goes for chuch or following also. Now, friends...thats a different story...friends are ok, but I do not accept freinds that blindly accept.

So as an answer to your post... it is not only quite acceptable to deny what I have posted here, but it is more than expected as I would even demand no one blindly accepts this information. Just...please do not use denial without proof as a foundation to claim I am wrong or part of any cult type thing, for I am not.

Understand at this point in time.. the Two Witnesses will have needed to be born and raised and this is so, as they are two individual people. They must be somewhere.. and so they are... and certainly someone must know them... and I do.. also there are others that know them and they are not asked to follow, nor are they asked to follow blindly. Have the Two Witness come front and center showing and telling who they are? No...it is not yet their time of power. But hat does not mean they would not welcome a test. Another ability to know them is not for the Two Witnesses benefit but for the benefit of the person to know them, just to know them... friends not followers.

So, your inability of acceptance is quite ok with me. But why... if what I claim is true... should I hide these things? Who would not want to know, to be given the chance to know? This is the reason I came forward with this information. No following required, but testing is accepted.

Understand that if I had not been shown by God who these two are, i would stand in the same position as you, so I do not hold anything against anyone standing in that position.

Seek the Scriptures where the Two Witnesses seek followers... there are none, for they do not seek followers. That would have proven those two brothers you spoke of as false right away. The real Two Witnesses seek no followers, but in no way means they cannot have friends they can share with, both in teaching and in learning. Maybe all the time I spend allowing this information to be discussed and even allowing a proper test is just futile text, but at least I did allow for it.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Surely many have made false claims, but that does not mean I did. Because of all the false claims I allow for allot of room for denial without me bieng crass. For this same reason I also tell you and all that read this... that I will reveal them if anyone can produce a proper test. I will even assist in editing any test showing a possibility of being a proper test. Furthermore, I am asking no one to join any cult... I do not have a cult, want a cult nor ever intending on starting a cult. and this goes for chuch or following also. Now, friends...thats a different story...friends are ok, but I do not accept freinds that blindly accept.

So as an answer to your post... it is not only quite acceptable to deny what I have posted here, but it is more than expected as I would even demand no one blindly accepts this information. Just...please do not use denial without proof as a foundation to claim I am wrong or part of any cult type thing, for I am not.

Understand at this point in time.. the Two Witnesses will have needed to be born and raised and this is so, as they are two individual people. They must be somewhere.. and so they are... and certainly someone must know them... and I do.. also there are others that know them and they are not asked to follow, nor are they asked to follow blindly. Have the Two Witness come front and center showing and telling who they are? No...it is not yet their time of power. But hat does not mean they would not welcome a test. Another ability to know them is not for the Two Witnesses benefit but for the benefit of the person to know them, just to know them... friends not followers.

So, your inability of acceptance is quite ok with me. But why... if what I claim is true... should I hide these things? Who would not want to know, to be given the chance to know? This is the reason I came forward with this information. No following required, but testing is accepted.

Understand that if I had not been shown by God who these two are, i would stand in the same position as you, so I do not hold anything against anyone standing in that position.

Seek the Scriptures where the Two Witnesses seek followers... there are none, for they do not seek followers. That would have proven those two brothers you spoke of as false right away. The real Two Witnesses seek no followers, but in no way means they cannot have friends they can share with, both in teaching and in learning. Maybe all the time I spend allowing this information to be discussed and even allowing a proper test is just futile text, but at least I did allow for it.

Now I wouldn't suggest you test them by having them kill an enemy by breathing out fire upon him, but you could test them by having them shut up the heavens (prevent it from raining) and preferably during a time of nominal heavy rains, like a monsoon season.

 

[tgwprophet]

One must think this through, The testing is for prior to the 1,260 they have power. After their time commences - no test is necessary.

 

[Brothertom]

"This one I have difficulty with as the Abomination of Desolation takes place at the Temple, yet it says when you see it stand there? Can anyone clarify this?".....Terry.

I think our understanding grows in these issues, as we seek Him for understanding. Most assume a Temple must be built in Jerusalem, for there to be a HOLY PLACE. I am thinking a bit differently these days. There already is a Temple on the Holy site, the site where Abraham offered Isaac; the site of Davids first Temple; The threshing floor:

"And David spake unto the Lord [ Jesus in Wrath..] when he saw the angel that smote the people, and said, Lo, I have sinned, and I have done wickedly: but these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, be against me, and against my father's house.

And Gad came that day to David, and said unto him, Go up, rear an altar unto the Lord in the threshingfloor of Araunah the Jebusite."


This place is the Temple mount, the exact site of the Holy of Holies, that Solomon built, & offered unto the Lord; the exact place where Abraham offered Isaac. This is the exact site today, where the Dome of the Rock sits, formerly the Temple to Jupiter after the sacking of the 2nd Temple. It now is given over to the demon god Allah, Who may be the one & same as Jupiter. [ Or united with Satan..]

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the HOLY PLACE, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

The Abomination that makes Desolate could be the blasphemy of declaring that Allah is Jehovah, & forcible death to all on the Earth that refuse to, & refuse to take the Mark, or the # of his name.

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

It could be that the Dome of the Rock [ the rock Abraham offered Isaac on....] would be the worldwide center of the Anti-Christ; he would actually sit there, along with an image that was living...like a glass statue...that actually spoke to people. Allah enjoys war, blood sacrifice & murder...& this would come upon multitudes who knew their God, Jesus of Nazareth.

"And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

I recently returned from N. Africa where I encountered the Taliban who tried to murder me. I escaped two countries throuigh the U.S embassy; I wont get into the details, but you may read them here:
http://brideinthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-anti-christ-alive-martyrdom-glory.html#comment-form

I believe the false prophet is alive accompanying the Anti-Christ today, but may not yet be realeased into fullness, as I describe in above link. I believe I have met them both, face to face. I am not sure how the details will work out, but Barak Hussein Obama & a cadre of his officers are in on this New World Order, & striving to undermine & destroy American Sovereignty. America is the key to the fall of the rest of the world, & when she falls, & she [ we ] will, a domino effect will topple every other government, & Sharia Law will dominate; a change of the times.

"And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
And he shall speak great words against the most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the most High,.......SHARIA LAW;
AND think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."
Daniel 7....
... But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end."
[ Hallelujah to the Lamb!" ]

Just some of my ideas mixed with some discernment; imperfect. When it takes place, we shall not wonder, but know. The idea for us to know, is that we might endure, no matter the cost, no matter who goes with us, & follow the Lamb WHEREVER HE GOES!...& BELIEVE WITHOUT DOUBT THAT THE DAY OF OUR DEATH WILL BE BUT A PROMOTION TO THE THRONE WHERE JESUS SITS TO WELCOME US INTO THE REAL WORLD; ETERNAL HEAVEN & THE CITY OF GOD.