THE CHURCH IS NOT THE BRIDE OF CHRIST

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Scott Downey

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The church the believing remnant/ the little flock are given the kingdom on earth

[Luk 12:32 KJV] 32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

[Mat 8:11-12 KJV] 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The children of the kingdom is Israel Acts 3:25

The body of Christ is not given the earthly kingdom we are given the heavenly places

[Eph 2:6 KJV] 6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
[Eph 3:10 KJV] 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
You're making this too complex.
We believers in Christ inherit all things, new heaven and new earth.

Rev 21
6 And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.

7 He who overcomes [d]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

8 But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

There are only 2 possible destinies, inheriting all things with God, or the lake of fire
 

Lizbeth

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The church the believing remnant/ the little flock are given the kingdom on earth

[Luk 12:32 KJV] 32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

[Mat 8:11-12 KJV] 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The children of the kingdom is Israel Acts 3:25

The body of Christ is not given the earthly kingdom we are given the heavenly places

[Eph 2:6 KJV] 6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
[Eph 3:10 KJV] 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Excuse me for butting in again, but wasn't it Jesus who said what does it profit to gain the whole world but lose one's own soul? Outer darkness is not a good place to be....it means outside of heaven, aka, LOST....as in PERISH.
 

GracePeace

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The church the believing remnant/ the little flock are given the kingdom on earth
Realize that when you imagine Paul would be excluded from your imaginary "church the believing remnant", you are utterly without reason or grounding in reality : Paul is both an Israelite, and is of the remnant of Israel which God is saving/preserving by Grace.

Romans 11 ESV
1I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham,a a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

Romans 11 KJV
1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Therefore, there would be no Scriptural mechanism whereby Paul would be prevented from automatically being part of your imaginary "church the believing remnant" that is ostensibly separate from another church, "church the body of christ".

Do you have mental health issues? This way of interpreting Scripture is schizophrenic.

I don't mean to be rude, I just have never in my life heard of any reading of Scripture that is so bizarre, so removed and divorced from reality.
 

Lizbeth

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And look who sits in that temple, the devil's own.
2 Thess 2
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

This is an evil thing, and an evil time and place.
It is a false temple of God, God inhabits His temple which is us, not any building. This is very much the idea of a Jewish temple, like as the old testament with people calling it the temple of God. Devil wants to be worshipped as God.
Very much agree.
And the devil is a liar, everything he speaks is a lie.
The devil lied to Christ as if he had the authority to give to Christ, when the earth is the Lord's, and all the fullness thereof, the people and them that dwell therein.

God says 'All souls are mine, the soul that sins shall die.


Luke 4
5 [d]Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, “All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours.”

8 And Jesus answered and said to him, [e]“Get behind Me, Satan! [f]For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ”
Here I'm not sure to be honest....I wonder if Satan was the ruling principality (prince) of this world who then fell. So he had power/authority on a certain level..........but Jesus, after His death and resurrection in defeating/conquering the devil, essentially took the rule away from him unto Himself.

(There are Luciferians to this day who worship the devil in order to receive the status, power, wealth and glory that this world offers. I mean it seems to work, they sell their soul for the things that this world offers. They are so deceived....much good it will do them at the end of this short little life.)
 

Doug

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1. Before, you said that the difference between them and those who believe Paul's Gospel was that "we are secure in our salvation" but "they had no such assurance [of salvation]"...
Salvation for Israel as a nation is when Christ returns.................[Act 3:19 KJV] 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Israel had no assurance of being saved to enter the earthly kingdom........................[Mat 10:22 KJV] 22 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
 

GracePeace

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Salvation for Israel as a nation is when Christ returns.................[Act 3:19 KJV] 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Why would you quote Acts 3 for explaining national salvation at Christ's return?
Literally, many INDIVIDUALS in the crowd repent and are saved, and many don't.
You are mixed up.
Israel had no assurance of being saved to enter the earthly kingdom........................[Mat 10:22 KJV] 22 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Except that Jesus told the Apostles to go teach the nations so that they will observe all things He taught, so those teachings are for all nations, not for Israel alone.

Why are you so exceedingly confused? What have you done, or what happened to you?
 

Doug

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His kingdom was "not of this world".
He wasnt going to reign over the existing government

[Isa 9:6-7 KJV] 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

[Dan 7:27 KJV] 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
 

GracePeace

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He wasnt going to reign over the existing government

[Isa 9:6-7 KJV] 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

[Dan 7:27 KJV] 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Yeah, Jesus brings God's Kingdom to earth--we only have the spirit of adoption, but we are waiting in hope for the adoption of the body, so, also, the Kingdom was brought spiritually, and, later, it will be brought physically, and those who live faithful to the King and His Kingdom now will enter it fully later.
 

Titus

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Figure of speech, yes. But if Peter was the most prominent or chiefest apostle of the 12, he might in a way also represent them all. But also there's no denying that Jesus called him by his new name, which means rock or stone.
Jesus called him a small stone. Jesus built His church on an immovable massive connected rock face.
Peter's rock is detached small therefore can be moved. Peter is petros masculine noun.
Jesus' rock upon which He builds His church is petra feminine noun.


By Jesus' choice of words there can be no way Christ would build His house on a small pebble that can be moved.

The Scriptures teach against ranks among the apostles, superior, chief, prominent, head, greater etc.
Not one scripture in the entire new testament gives any of the apostles any of these titles.
The silence of the scriptures should silence any contemplation leaning in this direction.

I agree those verses are not enough to go on by themselves, just thought they showed how some men in the church including apostles could have more prominence than others
The verses we have discussed show prominence among apostles to not be the case.
Jesus condemned this idea when the apostles themselves wondered about who would be greatest in the Kingdom.

but there are at least a couple more verses that give that impression (Gal 2:2 and Acts 15:22)
Galatians 2:2,
- and I went up by revelation and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the gentiles but privately to those of reputation lest by any means I might run in vain, or had run vain

Two groups that Paul preached the gospel to in this verse.
Gentiles. No gentile was ever given apostleship.
Those of reputation were the jews.Those who were appointed elders and apostles.

Reputation separates Christian brethren in the church from apostles and elders in the church.
It does not seperate apostles into some of reputation(leaders) and some not of reputation.

The private discussion is recorded in Acts 15. Apostles and elders of the church came together to discuss the matter of the Jews binding circumcision and commanding that the gentile Christians keep the law of Moses.

Paul repeats this twice Galatians 2:6 ; 9
Leading men are referred to as Pillars of the church.
That word is reference to elders and apostles in the church.
Specifically James, Cephas, John.
Pillar simply means men that were respected in the church.
This has NOTHING to do with ranking among the apostles.
Proof of this is Cephas was not even an apostle!!! Yet he was one of the Pillars.
So in no way is the context implying greater apostles over other apostles as Pillars in the church.


But I think there's no denying Peter's leadership and prominence among the rest. Look at Acts 1:15 where Peter is the one who stood up among the other apostles to call for a new apostle to replace Judas. And in Acts 2:14 He stood up with them and is the one recorded as preaching to "Ye men of Judea...." after the Holy Spirit was given
Your reasoning does not equate to prominence because Peter is recorded as speaking more than the others.
What if Matthew's preaching was recorded instead of Peter's preaching in Acts chapter 2?
Would that make Matthew prominent over Peter?

That's not evidence that's speculation.
If the apostles were here today and all 12 held a gospel meeting at a local church.
It was a 7 day meeting.
Matthew preached Sunday, Monday, Tuesday.
Peter preached on Wednesday.
John preached Thrusday, Friday and Saturday.

Would you reason Matthew and John were prominent apostles over Peter?
Just because they spoke more at the meeting?

Acts 3 and 4 as well. Peter is the one who is recorded as the main one preaching and evangelizing the people. Later, he is the one who rebuked Ananias and Saphira and when he did they fell down dead. Still later it was written how people were healed when Peter's shadow fell on them. Etc. It's very hard not to have the impression he had more prominence than the others (unofficially). The more I look into it, the more I tend to think Jesus was letting Peter know he would have grace to lead the early church, but in a sort of quiet and tactful way, not in a worldly way of giving him status and title or indicating official "succession" as the Catholics claim.
Have you forgotten Paul was not yet chosen?
Trying to add up who is recorded the most on preaching is not proof of prominence.
It's not even a fair way of reasoning since Paul has not yet even been given the opportunity to begin his preaching.
So of course Peter preached early on as Paul was not yet preaching!!!
Add up who preached the most from Acts 2 to Acts 9 and Peter wins.
This reasoning cannot be used to come to a sound conclusion that Peter was prominent.

Notice we dont even know how much preaching the other apostles did. The scriptures did not record everything that took place among the apostles evangelism We have missing data to try and come to an honest conclusion of who is the head apostle based on numbers alone.
This reasoning is flawed.

I just don't know how to emphasize strongly enough how vital it is to remain in the simplicity of Christ
Agreed,
Again, The Scriptures have answered this doctrine. It is unscriptual.

John 13:16,
- verily I say unto you the servant is not greater than his Lord, neither he(Peter, John) that is sent is greater than he(other apostles) that sent him(Peter, John)

Acts 8:14,
- now when the apostles which were in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God they  sent unto them Peter and John
 

GracePeace

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You are still saying they are in the body of Christ
I am showing you the more reasonable reading : the Gentile believers Paul addresses in the Epistle to the Romans (eg, 11:13) are literally the Gentile believers in the audience in the Roman Church. LOL! I mean, my goodness, man, how far out there do you have to be to go out of your way to deny this to try to string together some weird tutu theological confusion like you believe? You make stuff SO HARD--and, in the end, all the effort was wasted, doesn't even pay off, because it doesn't even work, it's all confused nonsense!
Do you think the Gentiles in Acts 10 are in the body of Christ?
All believers are baptized into Christ, thus are sharing in His bodily death and resurrection--ipso facto, they are in Christ's body.
 

Scott Downey

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Very much agree.

Here I'm not sure to be honest....I wonder if Satan was the ruling principality (prince) of this world who then fell. So he had power/authority on a certain level..........but Jesus, after His death and resurrection in defeating/conquering the devil, essentially took the rule away from him unto Himself.

(There are Luciferians to this day who worship the devil in order to receive the status, power, wealth and glory that this world offers. I mean it seems to work, they sell their soul for the things that this world offers. They are so deceived....much good it will do them at the end of this short little life.)
I look at it that Adam (man) was given the dominion over the whole earth, so the dominion of earth, that belonged to man, not Satan.
Satan is a celestial being, whose proper abode was heaven, but he and his angels fell from heaven to earth, they left heaven for earth.

Genesis 1
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over [g]all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that [h]moves on the earth.”

29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is [i]life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Christ is also called the 'last Adam', Christ reclaimed the dominion from Satan, triumphed over him (principalities and powers)

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
 

Doug

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At the time, I was trying to understand your position--because it's really fortuitous, has no actual logic or sense--on whether the so-called "remnant of Israel believers" were "in Christ".
Paul said his fellow prisoners were in Christ before him so they would have to be in the remnant............[Rom 16:7 KJV] 7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
 

GracePeace

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Paul said his fellow prisoners were in Christ before him so they would have to be in the remnant............[Rom 16:7 KJV] 7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
All believers are "in Christ"--whether they are the remnant of the nation of Israel (Ro 11:5), or the remnants of other nations.
 

Doug

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3. You have to argue that the Gentiles referred to in Romans 10:12,13 are the Gentiles who believed in Peter's Gospel, but we have a better option--the Gentiles in Ro 13, whom Paul identifies as the "another people" God chooses to drive to jealous the people who made Him jealous by choosing another god, and it makes as much sense to define the people He chooses in their (Israel's) stead to make them (Israel) jealous as it does to say the god they chose in His stead was actually Him and that made Him jealous. No, these are people who are not the same people that made Him jealous, just as He was not the same god they chose.
This makes no sense sorry
Romans 11:13 says nothing about another people ??????????
 

Doug

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@Doug Still haven't gotten an answer to this--Jewish believers have died, thus were freed from their obligation to serve by the Law, and are no longer in the flesh but are in the spirit (Ro 7:5, 8:9).

Whats the question?????
 

GracePeace

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This makes no sense sorry
Romans 11:13 says nothing about another people ??????????
As has already been explained to you (but you never pay sufficient attention--you're completely lost in your own "Muppet Babies" world, apparently), Paul is citing Deuteronomy 32:21 when he says he wants to move his people to jealousy by magnifying his ministry to the Gentiles

Deuteronomy 32:21They have made me jealous with what is no god; they have provoked me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are no people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

.Again, they chose another god, making God jealous, so God chooses another people, making them jealous : you have replied that these people He chooses in their stead is actually just them all over again, but, again, no, because it could not make my wife jealous if I chose her, it would make her jealous if I chose someone else who was not her.
 

Doug

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The Bride of Christ is the Church—Jew and Gentile made one in Christ (Eph. 2:14–22, Eph. 5:25–32). There aren't multiple brides or divided bodies. Peter wasn’t part of a different church—he affirmed Paul and was filled with the same Spirit (Acts 2, 2 Peter 3:15–16). This kind of theology splits what Christ made one. I stand on the unity of the gospel.
All my posts go into detail about this