The Church is Not the Source of Truth

[Axehead]

Jesus is the source of truth. The Church did not authenticate the mission of Jesus or His message. I don't think the Jewish priests and scribes were gladly verifying Jesus' claims and teachings.

So, how were His teachings authenticated and confirmed as from God?

1. Jesus did not expect people to believe Him without the confirmation of miracles.
"If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true" (John 5:31)

So, Jesus is saying that if all He has going for Him is just what He says about Himself then He is an impostor.

2. Jesus said that the miracles that He performed by the power of God, authenticated His message.
"But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me" (John 5:36)

3. "Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me" (John 10:25)

4. Jesus even tells us not to believe Him unless He does the works of His Father (God).

"If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him" (John 10:37-38)

5. "If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father" (John 15:24)

6. "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:" (Act 2:22)

7. "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him" (Act 10:38)

Scripture affirms (and Jesus affirms) that any message that comes from God through man must bear verification and show authentication from the Holy Spirit.

The Apostles and other New Testament prophets were teachers of truth and the same miraculous manifestations of the Holy Spirit authenticated their ministry and message. They were authenticated by God (the Holy Spirit) and not by man. I'll show some scriptures pertaining to the Apostles, later.

The Church is not the source of God's message of truth, but rather the product of God's Truth.

Axehead

 

[Xian Pugilist]

I 'll be your huckleberry.....

The church is the protector, teacher, and executor of His truth.

The Church is the neck and back of the body He is the head of. Without them, the message doesn't get to us little phalanges......

 

[Axehead]

Hi XP,

I was expecting you. I am not talking about preaching the Gospel. I am talking about the "source of truth". That would be the body part you neglected, namely the Head.

The Head transmits "messages" to the Body.

The Head communicates what it (He) wants the members of the Body to do.

Yes, we are His hands and feet and mouth on earth to transmit the message that has its source in Him.

Axehead

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Ok, then I have this to say. God the father is the source of truth, who administers it through His Son, who administers it through His church leaders, who prepare the people to execute it.

God is the gardener, His son the vine, and we are branches..... all we do is hold the fruit that the vine dictates when to grow... and where to grow.....

 

[Episkopos]

I would say that the church is no longer the source of truth to the world. The church is to be the light of the world the same way that Jesus was the light of the world when He walked among us. To say that Jesus is the light and the church is not supposed to be is to deflect the truth...thereby making the truth unavailable to those who are listening. So it is a self fulfilling prophesy to deny that the church should not be the pillar and ground of the truth. What is lacking is depth. The modern church is a conglomerate that seeks to exploit the truth...for gains. Rather than stand in the truth and preach the truth...the modern church calls for others to do as they...exploit the truth for personal benefit.

So the mentality is that Jesus is the only truth...so go exploit Him for yourself. This is of course the very antithesis of the gospel message where Christ is incarnated in His church for the world to behold and for God to receive glory in.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Sniff sniff.... I luv you man...

I would say that the church is no longer the source of truth to the world. The church is to be the light of the world the same way that Jesus was the light of the world when He walked among us. To say that Jesus is the light and the church is not supposed to be is to deflect the truth...thereby making the truth unavailable to those who are listening. So it is a self fulfilling prophesy to deny that the church should not be the pillar and ground of the truth. What is lacking is depth. The modern church is a conglomerate that seeks to exploit the truth...for gains. Rather than stand in the truth and preach the truth...the modern church calls for others to do as they...exploit the truth for personal benefit.

So the mentality is that Jesus is the only truth...so go exploit Him for yourself. This is of course the very antithesis of the gospel message where Christ is incarnated in His church for the world to behold and for God to receive glory in.

 

[Hepzibah]

What we see as our ultimate source of authority, is the most important issue for believers.

Protestants say scripture and Catholics say the Church, but scripture says it is the Word, not the scriptures themselves which are the fountain and not the source, The Word or Christ Jesus, who existed before the scriptures were written, speaks to us directly, if we are in union with Him as direct and immediate revelation. Scripture will not contradict the Word but it can only be understood through Christ revealing the truth to our spirit man. He is the Light which reveals the truth.

The objection is, that there is little/no agreement, but just because the method God uses is misused does not make it incorrect. Those who are in union with Christ and walking in sinlessness, and who in fact should be leaders of the church but in practise, often are not, (read Paul on how he struggled to be accepted as a leader) are the only ones to understand the scriptures rightly, as they are in the same Spirit as the writers and have a deep understanding of the meaning of the writings, having personal experience of the things the writers wrote about and not just head knowledge.

Sadly today there are few who are walking in this glorified state and hence we have so much confusion, heresy and disagreement. The truths of God are not to be grasped by the mind but by the spirit and a spirit which has been renewed and controlled by a pure heart. Only these can see God and are living in Gods reality and not that of their own imaginings.

One only has to read thre writings of those who lived in this state, to see how much they were in agreement with each other.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Axehead,

In support of your OP, there are also those apart from Jesus who acknowledged that He was manifesting the power of God:

John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

John 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keeps not the sabbath day.
Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and [yet] he hath opened mine eyes. 31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears. 32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. 33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.


Also, here are some verses which don't absolve the Church from being what she is supposed to be, (but seems to be failing in the experience of many believers), but which do acknowledge the general and personal responsibility God Himself has put on all men and women and children, to know Him.

John 1:9 '... [Jesus] was [is] the true Light, which lights every man that comes into the world.

Romans 1:19 '... that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] to them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light,
because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.



1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him. 10 But God has revealed to us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[epostle1]

Protestant and reform theology is a mixture of naturalism and relativism synergistically merging to form a dubious logic of absolute fact. The concept of objective truth becomes completely foreign. Morality requires a standard or a guide for our actions that is subordinated to an ultimate purpose. In the case of all fundamental rules our actions are subject to an omnipotent ruler (God). Reasoning in the light of His ultimate purpose is moral order, to govern in the light of His fundamental moral rules produces law and order-or social stability. The reformer would have us believe that the Church is evil, full of hypocrites, and in opposition to its own people. In the same breath they demand the right to deride her doctrine and rites demanding that all be pressed into a worship of their making. While faith is relative to the reformer, i.e. one religion is as good as another, they war against the Church with an objectivity not found in their faith.

The French Revolution is a good example of relativism run amuck. Thousands of Catholics were martyred along with their Bishops. The revolution outlawed the Jesuits, confiscated the property anybody remotely loyal to Rome’s Church. This was accomplished by men who rationalized that their freedoms could only materialize by enslaving the Catholic Church to their will.

The product of the 16th century reformer produced the bloodletting enlightenment of the 18th century. The Mass was mocked, property stolen and priests killed, all in the name of 'enlightenment'. The revolutionaries thought themselves quintessence of their Age of Reason. As an example, the “Church of Notre Dame de Paris became a temple of Reason, and the feast of Reason [not the Eucharist] was celebrated on 10 November. (an abomination standing in a holy place) The Goddesses of Reason and Liberty were not always the daughters of low people; they frequently came of the middle classes.” What actually came to the French was godless socialism handed to them by the reformers; they were so successful that Lenin once remarked that he modeled the Communist horror on the French Revolution. And of course the enlightened reasoned themselves into the age of Hitler's ovens.

As with the French in 1792, we see disrespect for an adherence of moral certitude. God is missing in “rational” daily thought (secularism). Truth becomes “relative” as “reason” becomes justification for revolt and war against the Church. Both are opposed to God’s word being truth, and His redemptive forgiveness.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

The Bible says the Church is to educate us in the WOrd. I'd have to agree with you. But, the Catholics have closer to the Biblical model of a Church than we protestants do.

You describe Luther's thought on Sola Scriptura not the bastardized version we hear taught today.

What we see as our ultimate source of authority, is the most important issue for believers.

Protestants say scripture and Catholics say the Church, but scripture says it is the Word, not the scriptures themselves which are the fountain and not the source, The Word or Christ Jesus, who existed before the scriptures were written, speaks to us directly, if we are in union with Him as direct and immediate revelation. Scripture will not contradict the Word but it can only be understood through Christ revealing the truth to our spirit man. He is the Light which reveals the truth.

The objection is, that there is little/no agreement, but just because the method God uses is misused does not make it incorrect. Those who are in union with Christ and walking in sinlessness, and who in fact should be leaders of the church but in practise, often are not, (read Paul on how he struggled to be accepted as a leader) are the only ones to understand the scriptures rightly, as they are in the same Spirit as the writers and have a deep understanding of the meaning of the writings, having personal experience of the things the writers wrote about and not just head knowledge.

Sadly today there are few who are walking in this glorified state and hence we have so much confusion, heresy and disagreement. The truths of God are not to be grasped by the mind but by the spirit and a spirit which has been renewed and controlled by a pure heart. Only these can see God and are living in Gods reality and not that of their own imaginings.

One only has to read thre writings of those who lived in this state, to see how much they were in agreement with each other.

 

[Episkopos]

What we see as our ultimate source of authority, is the most important issue for believers.

Protestants say scripture and Catholics say the Church, but scripture says it is the Word, not the scriptures themselves which are the fountain and not the source, The Word or Christ Jesus, who existed before the scriptures were written, speaks to us directly, if we are in union with Him as direct and immediate revelation. Scripture will not contradict the Word but it can only be understood through Christ revealing the truth to our spirit man. He is the Light which reveals the truth.

The objection is, that there is little/no agreement, but just because the method God uses is misused does not make it incorrect. Those who are in union with Christ and walking in sinlessness, and who in fact should be leaders of the church but in practise, often are not, (read Paul on how he struggled to be accepted as a leader) are the only ones to understand the scriptures rightly, as they are in the same Spirit as the writers and have a deep understanding of the meaning of the writings, having personal experience of the things the writers wrote about and not just head knowledge.

Sadly today there are few who are walking in this glorified state and hence we have so much confusion, heresy and disagreement. The truths of God are not to be grasped by the mind but by the spirit and a spirit which has been renewed and controlled by a pure heart. Only these can see God and are living in Gods reality and not that of their own imaginings.

One only has to read thre writings of those who lived in this state, to see how much they were in agreement with each other.

Very deep thoughts here!

I would add this...

Jesus Christ has revealed Himself to His servants that they may become partakers of His life. The light becomes incarnated in we who are empowered to contain this life. As such we become the light to this world.

Mat_5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

It would seem that we are paying a greater compliment to Jesus by not claiming to be holders of the truth or light.And in the vast majority of cases...this is true. But we don't glorify God by being less than we are called to be. We are called to be saints in the light. We pay honour to God by allowing our lives to be swallowed up in His life and truly become the light in this world. It is a false humility to pay lip service to the greatness of Christ but without actually taking up our cross to follow Him and abide in Him by the Spirit and with Him among the brethren who are gathered in His name.

Jesus doesn't say...where 2 or 3 are gathered there is a REPRESENTATION of Me...But rather...there I AM!!!!

This needs to be pondered more deeply...

 

[epostle1]

The Bible says the Church is to educate us in the WOrd. I'd have to agree with you. But, the Catholics have closer to the Biblical model of a Church than we protestants do.

And we are not without sinners either, XP. John 11:51-52 - some non-Catholics argue that sinners cannot have the power to teach infallibly. But in this verse, God allows Caiaphas to prophesy infallibly, even though he was evil and plotted Jesus' death. God allows sinners to teach infallibly, just as He allows sinners to become saints. As a loving Father, He exalts His children, and is bound by His own justice to give His children a mechanism to know truth from error.

This former Pentecostal minister shares your sentiment. It's a 4 part series but this is just part 2. He is a very good preacher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEReuOs4zlY

You describe Luther's thought on Sola Scriptura not the bastardized version we hear taught today.

All versions of sola scriptura bastardize the Word. It's time the Protestant revolt excised this malignant tumor out of the body of Christ, with its proliferation of new denominations being formed on a daily basis.

The Church is not the source of God's message of truth, but rather the product of God's Truth.

I would change it to say The Church is not the source of God's message of truth, but rather the teacher of God's Truth.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

I think you will find, if we stay away from mary, I am usually going to agree with you . Oh, and charismatic stuff.

The only thing for me here is the all sola scriptura is bad. If you present a claim from tradition, but it contradicts scripture, and there is no possible reconciliation, that's garbage. Worthless. MOST of the time when people say cat'liks teach something in the Bible they are parroting someone else and never have checked it out themselves..... I had a friend, wise man, smart alec too, catholic school trained episcopalian priest that used to love to get me worked up. I got tired of him being more right than I was. But I couldn't do anything about it.

 

[Episkopos]

This idea of separating Christ from His body is all the rage in these times. Who invites just someone's head to dinner while refusing the body? It is misguided to seek to lift up the head without the body...unless decapitation is one's intent. When one lift6s up just the head of a man...we call this hanging! It is as misguided as cutting out the heart of a man in order to honour his courage. But in doing this, the courage as well as the man...is extinguished.

 

[dragonfly]

God bears witness to truth according to His own will, and not according to our human ideas. The more we retain His original teaching, the more He will be able to confirm His endorsement of the teaching, with signs following.

What we will see more and more on earth, is a display of questionable signs, which were not preceded by teaching which God can endorse.

Hebrews 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by them that heard [him]; 4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

What we need is the same kind of progression... seeing and hearing the Lord, repeating His teaching, watching His confirmation.


But first, we need the Holy Spirit giving us personal confirmation that the word of God is true. Rom 8:16

Without the Holy Spirit, we will not be able to separate the word of God from the words of man, nor identify lying signs.


Revelation 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.


John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Matthew 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Revelation 2:1 To the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; 2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4 Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. 6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches; To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.




Maybe there are many 'churches' on earth, whose candlestick was removed long ago, and having not the Holy Spirit, they cannot see.

Revelation 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.



1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abides in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, ye shall abide in him.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman... 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 '... for without me ye can do nothing.


Romans 11:17 '... [Thou] partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 '... thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.


Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.​

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him has God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God has given to them that obey him.

33 When they heard [that], they were cut [to the heart], and took counsel to slay them. John 8:44, 38.

 

[Episkopos]

God bears witness to truth according to His own will, and not according to our human ideas. The more we retain His original teaching, the more He will be able to confirm His endorsement of the teaching, with signs following.

What we will see more and more on earth, is a display of questionable signs, which were not preceded by teaching which God can endorse.

Hebrews 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by them that heard [him]; 4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

What we need is the same kind of progression... seeing and hearing the Lord, repeating His teaching, watching His confirmation.


But first, we need the Holy Spirit giving us personal confirmation that the word of God is true. Rom 8:16

Without the Holy Spirit, we will not be able to separate the word of God from the words of man, nor identify lying signs.


Revelation 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.


John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Matthew 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Revelation 2:1 To the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; 2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4 Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. 6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches; To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.




Maybe there are many 'churches' on earth, whose candlestick was removed long ago, and having not the Holy Spirit, they cannot see.

Revelation 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.



1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abides in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, ye shall abide in him.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman... 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 '... for without me ye can do nothing.


Romans 11:17 '... [Thou] partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 '... thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.


Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.​

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him has God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God has given to them that obey him.

33 When they heard [that], they were cut [to the heart], and took counsel to slay them. John 8:44, 38.

A truth is only known properly as it relates to the bigger picture of the whole truth. The bible meaning is so often refuted by biblical verses that sound right...but are misapplied.

Why do men seek to obfuscate the simplicity and profundity of the truth? That is simple...it is too costly to apply to those who think they need not go THAT far in order to both please God and have what they want. So the truth is compromised.

A house divided cannot stand. God is looking for a perfect unity and selflessness...the very perfection of holiness. Why should God expect so much from us? Jesus Christ paid the price, after all, to equip us to do the very will of God. To lessen that calling is to insult the grace of God. What was once seen as awe inspiring and and fearful soon becomes ordinary and familiar among so many Christians who stop advancing...some sooner than others. But the saint never quits and settles down on this side of eternity.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos,

The main connection between the verses I posted, is the no compromise of knowing the Lord for oneself; not taking second-hand knowledge as good enough. There you have Peter saying, 'We ought to obey God rather than men', making it clear that he knew the difference because he knew God as well as men. But some who claim to teach what Peter taught, hinder individuals from receiving the Holy Spirit and the indwelling Christ with His Father, even though that's the standard, without which we are told we cannot 'see' the kingdom of God, let alone enter the kingdom to eat of the tree of life.

If every 'teacher' knows the Lord for himself, then doctrine will be pure. Rather than scripture being chopped up to support faulty doctrine, the fulness of scripture will be the foundation from which cohesive doctrine can be shown. But these cannot be 'seen' or 'done' without the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 4:1 - 7 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that you all walk worthy of the vocation wherewith you all are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as you all are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all. But to every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

11 - 16 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie, in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head - Christ: from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, makes increase of the body to the edifying of itself in love.


Nothing between, Lord, nothing between;
Let me Thy glory see,
Draw my soul close to Thee,
Then speak in love to me— Nothing between.

Nothing between, Lord, nothing between;
Let not earth’s din and noise
Stifle Thy still small voice;
In it let me rejoice--- Nothing between.


John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man [or woman or child] enter in, he [or she] shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep... 3 '... the sheep hear his voice: and he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out. 4 And when he puts forth his own sheep, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

6 This parable spake Jesus to them: but they understood not what things ... he spake to them. 7 Then said Jesus to them again, Verily, verily, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.



Eternal Light! eternal Light!
How pure the soul must be
When, placed within Thy searching sight,
It shrinks not, but with calm delight
Can live, and look on Thee!

There is a way for man to rise
To that sublime abode,
And offering and a sacrifice,
A Holy Spirit's energies,
An Advocate with God.

Romans 6:4, Hebrews 12:22, 23, 24, Galatians 4:26, 1 Corinthians 5:7, John 14:15, 16, 17, 1 John 2:1.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,

The main connection between the verses I posted, is the no compromise of knowing the Lord for oneself; not taking second-hand knowledge as good enough. There you have Peter saying, 'We ought to obey God rather than men', making it clear that he knew the difference because he knew God as well as men. But some who claim to teach what Peter taught, hinder individuals from receiving the Holy Spirit and the indwelling Christ with His Father, even though that's the standard, without which we are told we cannot 'see' the kingdom of God, let alone enter the kingdom to eat of the tree of life.

If every 'teacher' knows the Lord for himself, then doctrine will be pure. Rather than scripture being chopped up to support faulty doctrine, the fulness of scripture will be the foundation from which cohesive doctrine can be shown. But these cannot be 'seen' or 'done' without the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 4:1 - 7 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that you all walk worthy of the vocation wherewith you all are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as you all are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all. But to every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

11 - 16 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie, in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head - Christ: from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, makes increase of the body to the edifying of itself in love.


Nothing between, Lord, nothing between;
Let me Thy glory see,
Draw my soul close to Thee,
Then speak in love to me— Nothing between.

Nothing between, Lord, nothing between;
Let not earth’s din and noise
Stifle Thy still small voice;
In it let me rejoice--- Nothing between.


John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man [or woman or child] enter in, he [or she] shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep... 3 '... the sheep hear his voice: and he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out. 4 And when he puts forth his own sheep, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

6 This parable spake Jesus to them: but they understood not what things ... he spake to them. 7 Then said Jesus to them again, Verily, verily, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.



Eternal Light! eternal Light!
How pure the soul must be
When, placed within Thy searching sight,
It shrinks not, but with calm delight
Can live, and look on Thee!

There is a way for man to rise
To that sublime abode,
And offering and a sacrifice,
A Holy Spirit's energies,
An Advocate with God.

Romans 6:4, Hebrews 12:22, 23, 24, Galatians 4:26, 1 Corinthians 5:7, John 14:15, 16, 17, 1 John 2:1.

Hi D!

It will be remembered that Peter was not addressing the elders in the church but rather the temporal government of unbelievers. Do you see how you have missed the context?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos,

Umm... Obliquely, Peter was telling the local religious authorities of Israel, who were supposed to be leading their people as the light of the world under God's command, that they had stopped obeying God. The narrative continues in the next verse:

Acts 5:34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; 35 And said to them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. 36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. 37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. 38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God. 40 And to him they agreed: - but they still didn't risk obeying God, because... '... when they had called the apostles, and beaten [them], they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.


All those verses are about men obeying men or agreeing with men or grouping together as men to rebel against men. It's all flesh, apart from the obvious wisdom in Gamaliel's reasoning.

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast [day], many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. 24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all [men], 25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world comes, and has nothing in me.


Basically, nothing in Christ's doctrine fits the patterns in the world's thinking.

Luke 22:24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. 25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26 But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that does serve. 27 For whether [is] greater, he that sits at meat, or he that serves? [is] not he that sits at meat? but I am among you as he that serves. 28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. 29 And I appoint to you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed to me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.



Hi Axehead,

This is an interesting post from Nomad, comparing men's doctrines to the doctrine of Christ.

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/16741-the-goddess-man-has-made/page__st__180 post # 202

 

[Axehead]

Hi Episkopos,

Umm... Obliquely, Peter was telling the local religious authorities of Israel, who were supposed to be leading their people as the light of the world under God's command, that they had stopped obeying God. The narrative continues in the next verse:

Acts 5:34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; 35 And said to them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. 36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. 37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. 38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God. 40 And to him they agreed: - but they still didn't risk obeying God, because... '... when they had called the apostles, and beaten [them], they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.


All those verses are about men obeying men or agreeing with men or grouping together as men to rebel against men. It's all flesh, apart from the obvious wisdom in Gamaliel's reasoning.

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast [day], many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. 24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all [men], 25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world comes, and has nothing in me.


Basically, nothing in Christ's doctrine fits the patterns in the world's thinking.

Luke 22:24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. 25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26 But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that does serve. 27 For whether [is] greater, he that sits at meat, or he that serves? [is] not he that sits at meat? but I am among you as he that serves. 28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. 29 And I appoint to you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed to me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.



Hi Axehead,

This is an interesting post from Nomad, comparing men's doctrines to the doctrine of Christ.

http://www.christian...e/page__st__180 post # 202

I just saw this. Thank you, dragonfly.