The Church is Not the Source of Truth

[epostle1]

Would you show me the chapter and verse where God says "My children, you shall follow the pope of Rome"?

The question is absurd, it presupposes the dominating dictator fallacy invented by hate cultists.

Would you show me the chapter and verse where God says "My children, you shall follow Luther, Calvin, Knox, Zwingli, and/or your private opinions"?
**********************************************************************************

choose any one of the following:


The Authority of the Pope: Part I


The Authority of the Pope: Part II


Origins of Peter as Pope


Papal Infallibility


Peter and the Papacy


Peter the Rock


Peter's Primacy


Peter's Roman Residency


Peter's Successors

50 New Testament Proofs for Petrine Primacy and the Papacy


Reply to a Critique of my 50 New Testament Proofs for Petrine Primacy and the Papacy (vs. Jason Engwer)

Exchange on Biblical Indications of Papal Succession and the Development and Nature of the Papacy

Dialogue: Is St. Paul Superior to St. Peter?


St. Peter the Scoundrel vs. St. Paul? No (Catholic) Church in the Book of Acts? A Day in the Life of Apologetic "Discussion" (vs. Anti-Trinitarian Tony Lehr)

The Nature of Papal Leadership: "Servant of Servants" [from Karl Adam; Facebook]

Reflections on the Papacy: The Primacy of St. Peter and Biblical Evidences

Dialogue on the Nature of Development of Doctrine (Particularly With Regard to the Papacy)(vs. Jason Engwer)

The Biblical, Primitive Papacy: St. Peter the "Rock": Scholarly Opinion (Mostly Protestant)


Protestant Scholars on Mt 16:16-19(Nicholas Hardesty)

Protestant Exegesis Profoundly Affected Historically By Polemical Overreactions to Catholic Positions (Example of Matthew 16:18: Peter as the "Rock")​

Gypsy, you are in sore need of an education.

 

[THE Gypsy]

The question is absurd, it presupposes the dominating dictator fallacy invented by hate cultists.

Would you show me the chapter and verse where God says "My children, you shall follow Luther, Calvin, Knox, Zwingli, and/or your private opinions"?
**********************************************************************************

choose any one of the following:


The Authority of the Pope: Part I


The Authority of the Pope: Part II


Origins of Peter as Pope


Papal Infallibility


Peter and the Papacy


Peter the Rock


Peter's Primacy


Peter's Roman Residency


Peter's Successors

50 New Testament Proofs for Petrine Primacy and the Papacy


Reply to a Critique of my 50 New Testament Proofs for Petrine Primacy and the Papacy (vs. Jason Engwer)

Exchange on Biblical Indications of Papal Succession and the Development and Nature of the Papacy

Dialogue: Is St. Paul Superior to St. Peter?


St. Peter the Scoundrel vs. St. Paul? No (Catholic) Church in the Book of Acts? A Day in the Life of Apologetic "Discussion" (vs. Anti-Trinitarian Tony Lehr)

The Nature of Papal Leadership: "Servant of Servants" [from Karl Adam; Facebook]

Reflections on the Papacy: The Primacy of St. Peter and Biblical Evidences

Dialogue on the Nature of Development of Doctrine (Particularly With Regard to the Papacy)(vs. Jason Engwer)

The Biblical, Primitive Papacy: St. Peter the "Rock": Scholarly Opinion (Mostly Protestant)


Protestant Scholars on Mt 16:16-19(Nicholas Hardesty)

Protestant Exegesis Profoundly Affected Historically By Polemical Overreactions to Catholic Positions (Example of Matthew 16:18: Peter as the "Rock")​

Gypsy, you are in sore need of an education.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

You need to go back and re-read the statement I was addressing.

And of course, no one can show any such verses because they simply do not exist...from the pope down.

 

[wayseer]

Hi Wayseer,

There is much more than the religious structure you are seeing with your eyes, today. There has ALWAYS been another "structure" yet it is not made with brick and stones and wood. It is not prominent and seen like the religious structure, it does not vaunteth itself, nor array itself with the riches and honor of the world, nor seeks to be "lords" over men imposing it's will on them. This is the true Body of Christ that is "following the Lamb whithersoever He goeth" and it is a living, breathing "structure". This Body receives life by the Head (Jesus) and it is organized and directed and led by God to survive centuries of torment and persecution by the religious structure.

Quite so - and it was to this structure I was referring.

Until all Christians worship the same Triune God under the leader our Lord intended us to follow,

Are you suggesting such is NOT the case?

Amen, Gypsy. We follow Jesus Christ and He is alive and well and living in His Church.

The religious system that put Jesus to death still exists though they continue to morph into different religious entities. The head of the religious system is Satan and he and his false church have been persecuting the Lord's Church ever since they crucified the Lord of Glory. The Lord commands us to come out of the false religious system.

I think you have to support you ideas with some theological argument. Personal opinion may be interesting but it is just that - personal opinion.

And of course, no one can show any such verses because they simply do not exist...from the pope down.

Regardless of your opinion there is textual and traditional support for the position that Pope of Rome holds.

In the nascent church there were five Holy Sees, one being Rome which was recognized as have preeminence - the first amongst equals. The basic for this was the reference to Peter of the "rock' and the fact that both Peter and Paul died in Rome.

 

[THE Gypsy]

Regardless of your opinion there is textual and traditional support for the position that Pope of Rome holds.

That is YOUR opinion.

In the nascent church there were five Holy Sees, one being Rome which was recognized as have preeminence - the first amongst equals. The basic for this was the reference to Peter of the "rock' and the fact that both Peter and Paul died in Rome.

Irrelevant. And both Peter and Paul pointed to Christ as the one to "follow"' not the pope.

 

[Axehead]

The question is absurd, it presupposes the dominating dictator fallacy invented by hate cultists.

Would you show me the chapter and verse where God says "My children, you shall follow Luther, Calvin, Knox, Zwingli, and/or your private opinions"?
**********************************************************************************

If people are following Luther, Calvin, Knox or Zwingli, the same statement holds true for them. We are to follow the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus said, "Follow me", not the Pope, Luther, Calvin, Knox, Zwingli or any man. No one can replace His Lordship and Headship over the Church.

We abide in the Vine (Jesus) not man. Jesus is the source of truth and the source of life for each Believer.

 

[epostle1]

That is YOUR opinion.


Irrelevant. And both Peter and Paul pointed to Christ as the one to "follow"' not the pope.

When you stop the forum temper tantrums and show evidence of a willingness for discussion, I will take you off my ignore list.

 

[THE Gypsy]

When you stop the forum temper tantrums and show evidence of a willingness for discussion, I will take you off my ignore list.

Oh my! What ever will I do.

Anyhow...When your reading comprehension catches up with your hostility, let me know.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi kepha,

From your post # 155 on p6 of this thread, I gather you're a bit hazy about the New Covenant, like too many others.

For instance, when you said

Dragonfly, your Holy Spirit obsession is unbalanced.

I thought you were exaggerating for the sake of emphasis, but now I realise you are wholly serious!

Well, I'm wholly serious when I say that my Holy Spirit 'obsession' is only as 'unbalanced' as God's is. To reduce it in any way would be like reducing one's oxygen supply. The Holy Spirit is the medium in which I live and move and have my being, and that's the only way to live, according to God's fulfilled promises to mankind.

me
Being guided by the Holy Spirit means everyone has the 'rules of His religion' in his heart, directly from God.

kepha
There is no explicit scripture to support this theory, you have just the usual list of unrelated quotes.

Theory?


Sorry, kepha. This IS the word of God. The word by which the whole creation is kept in place.

You might be wise to take it more seriously than the doctrines of man which crowd into your mind.


Matthew 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

Jesus said of John Baptist, 'Among them that are born of women there has not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.' Matt 11:11

If John Baptist knew that Jesus Christ was the messenger of the covenant, through whom the baptism of the Holy Spirit would come, as Joel 2:28, 29, had prophesied, then it was an open secret in Israel that the Holy Spirit was a vital part of the new covenant; not just because of Joel, but the major prophecies mention it.


John 7:37 In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come to me, and drink. 38 He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) 40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet. Acts 3:22, Deuteronomy 18:18, 19.


Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband to them, saith the LORD:
{although...: or, should I have continued an husband unto them?} 33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD:
for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Heb 8:10 - 13,


Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you:
and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.


Hebrews 10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he comes into the world, he says Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.... 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he has perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.


Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.


Galatians 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.


Romans 5:5 '... the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given to us.


Acts 19:3 And he [Paul] said to them, To what then were ye baptized? And they said, To John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying to the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away: and every [branch] that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.


John 3:3'... Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith to him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind blows where it lists, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it comes, and whither it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.



I hope the above verses don't seem to you to be 'unrelated', any more.

 

[epostle1]

One possible reason you are all "Holy Spirit" at the expense of the Father and the Son in your God-concept could be that you reject a perfect, human model of faith that gives balance and clarity to each of the Divine Persons of the Blessed Trinity in our understanding of God. If "Holy Spirit" filled Pentecostals were infallible in their teachings, there would not be 700 Pentecostal denominations that formed in a mere 1 century. I am not questioning their sincerity, I am trying to tell you that the Holy Spirit alone is not the be-all and end-all of being a Christian.

On a theological level, if you have Jesus in your heart, you have God the Father and the Holy Spirit in your heart.
If the Holy Spirit tells you something in prayer, you are hearing the voice of the Father and Jesus too.
The Father created all things, and the Lord knew you the instant you were being formed in your mothers womb, a future temple of the Holy Spirit. All three of the Divine Personalities cannot be separated because they share the same divine substance. The Holy Spirit is the Love between the Father and the Son. But if over-emphasizing the Holy Spirit is easier for you to express your faith, then I have no business standing in your way.
God bless you.

 

[neophyte]

Amen, Gypsy. We follow Jesus Christ and He is alive and well and living in His Church.

The religious system that put Jesus to death still exists though they continue to morph into different religious entities. The head of the religious system is Satan and he and his false church have been persecuting the Lord's Church ever since they crucified the Lord of Glory. The Lord commands us to come out of the false religious system.

Well, when are you leaving?

 

[Axehead]

One possible reason you are all "Holy Spirit" at the expense of the Father and the Son in your God-concept could be that you reject a perfect, human model of faith that gives balance and clarity to each of the Divine Persons of the Blessed Trinity in our understanding of God.

What is a perfect human model of faith? And what is wrong with Jesus Christ as our human model of faith? Why lower the standard? Why attempt to replace Jesus Christ with men and move our eyes and ears off of the Lord to a "human model".

Also, I did not read where dragonfly is "all Holy Spirit at the expense of the Father and the Son". Is that an assumption on your part.

Can one be "all Mary", at the expense of the Father and the Son?

2Co_5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

We know Christ after the Spirit now, which is far better than knowing Him after the flesh. How can you depend on the Holy Spirit "too much"? I guess it depends on what the implications of that are to your religious organization.

If "Holy Spirit" filled Pentecostals were infallible in their teachings, there would not be 700 Pentecostal denominations that formed in a mere 1 century. I am not questioning their sincerity, I am trying to tell you that the Holy Spirit alone is not the be-all and end-all of being a Christian.

It is not man that validates God and His Word. "Let God be true and every man a liar" (Rom_3:4)

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Any religious organization that says it has all the truth and is infallible is automatically disqualified from following or being a part of just the same as any man that says he has all the truth and is infallible.

Since God is the source He validates Himself and does not need man, too. Man's errors do not nullify God's truth. God is God and His truth will always remain true despite men. If one believes God's written Word then one knows and believes that the Holy Spirit is capable of communicating God's thoughts to men. (1 Cor 2).


1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


You are stuck on a carnal level, pitting your religious organization's interpretation against all others as if the battle is between religious organizations, which it is not. The battle always has been and still is about "Hath God said". Either you believe Him or you don't. It is about His words to you as an individual, first and foremost. It is clear to many of us that you are really here to promote your religious organization though you protest that you are only here to defend it.

One must be faithful first and foremost to the voice of the Holy Spirit (not their church organization or group) and not to men vying for their membership, saying "we have the truth, we have the truth and no one else has the truth as much as we do". The Spirit of God in men will confirm to them whether someone else is walking in the truth and whether they should fellowship with them. Men should not be led by men, but by the Holy Spirit. It has always been that way. We know that God's people are scattered throughout the world just as they were in the early church. There was no "Mother Church" in the New Testament. There were individual churches throughout the regions. Jesus did not tell John to write to the "Mother Church" but to write to 7 individual churches. There is no mention of a "Mother Church" in Scripture. There is only THE Church. There is only the Body. And Christ knows "them that are His". You don't and I don't!!


2Jn_1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

2Jn_1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
You keep trying to convince us that the doctrine you are bringing to us is of God.

2Ti_4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

What is wrong with men being wholly devoted to the Holy Spirit as much as men are wholly devoted to Mary? I do know why you don't like the idea of people being "all" Holy Spirit as you put it. Because it crowds out men's voices and men's influence on their lives. You can't do much with someone who is always waiting on the Lord to confirm in their heart what men are telling them. Many times the Lord will not confirm in their heart what others are telling them. The Lord has not confirmed in my heart and others, anything that you are promoting and maybe that is why you don't like us being "ALL" Holy Spirit.

If you were secure and confident in your beliefs you would go about the Lord's business in your life rather than argue and promote your religious organization trying to convince people that it is valid and the ONLY TRUE CHURCH.

Satan has always tried to discourage the child of God from hearing and obeying the voice of the Spirit and tries to dissuade him from that by sowing doubt into his mind regarding the reliability of God's Word and His voice (Holy Spirit). The enemy speaks through men to draw other men to men assuring them that if they "join" their organization then they will surely have SECURITY.

Only being joined to Christ and staying in fellowship with Christ gives one SECURITY and Christ will lead them to others who are joined to HIM and love Him with all their heart, soul, mind and strength. Only being joined to the Source of Truth will one have security and LIGHT in their life.

Religious organizations can claim infallibility and do, and they can claim being the source of truth and do, but in the end it is just an empty claim and anyone with the indwelling Spirit of God knows this. Their numbers may increase and they may draw others to their organization from other organizations but this is also not a validation from God. It all only serves to deceive men more and entrench in their mind that they have all the truth. The more successful in the flesh they are the more sure of themselves they become which draws them further and further away from God. There is a lot of carnal competition in the religious world for "nickels, noses and numbers."

Only Jesus Christ has all the truth and we need to be joined to Him (Vine and branches).

Yes, one that has the Holy Spirit has the Father and the Son, too.

Axehead

 

[neophyte]

Only Jesus Christ has all the truth and we need to be joined to Him (Vine and branches).

Yes, one that has the Holy Spirit has the Father and the Son, too.

Axehead

Jesus did leave us His Teaching Church but you refuse to believe our Lord. In Matthew 28:20 Jesus commands His apostles to "teach" them all that He had taught them, Isn't that order from Jesus clear enough for you to understand ?
Next proof of the Teaching position of His Apostolic Church is [ Luke 10:16 ] Here are a couple more verses to support His One and Only Teaching Church [ John 20:21] and this [ Matt. 28: 18-20 ] " .... teaching them to observe all that I taught you " A direct connection to the apostles is very important, as evidence from those preceding verses.
These two following verses are a favorite of all Christians from Pentecost to the 'end of times', for it proves that the One True Apostolic Church existed "then", [ no need of any future or individual "just me and Jesus" churches or the churches of' me and my bible alone' ] ,those two verses are Romans 16:17-18 and 1Cor.1;10.
We can say that Christ's Apostolic Church teaches [ official doctrines of faith ] it is still Jesus teaching in the world. St.Paul calls the church "Christ" [ 1 Cor. 12:12 ]

Jesus Himself identifies with His church and refers it as "Me" [ Acts 9:4 ] Jesus said that in listening to His apostolic church we are listening to Him - "He who hears you, hears me; and he who rejects you rejects me" [ Luke 10: 16 ] There isn't any way that anybody can honestly refute those verses..All True Christians believe those verses for the past 2000 years, only quasi-type Christians attempt to refute or outright twist those verses as they do to most of the Gospel so to fit into their man-made religious agenda.

 

[mjrhealth]

And why is it that so many have trouble with the Holy Spirit,

Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him

Yes Jesus did leave us someone to teach us all things but the world doesnt Love him.

Joh_14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I hope people, that you all realise, if you teach a lie, and someone should fall or stumble because of what you have said, that you will be responsible for them. It is not a place even I would like to be in,

In all His most merciful Grace and Love

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Axehead,

I'm fascinated at how differently different people 'read' the same post - like kepha's, here - to which I'm going to give an entirely different response!

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which works all in all. ... 11 But all these work that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ. Amen.



Hi kepha,

I appreciate the tone of your post, and I hope to build from it a better understanding in your interpretation of mine.

in your God-concept

My 'God-concept' is not from my imagination, as you might imagine; nor is it based solely on the accounts in scripture which communicate His power and authority as Creator and holy God. Rather, I know Him personally, now, and the claims I make for His love and truth and faithfulness are based on my experience of the accuracy of His word.

It is necessary to apply oneself to understanding what He means by His word, because this is the structure into which our existence fits, and against that same structure will our compliance with it, be judged.

One possible reason you are all "Holy Spirit" at the expense of the Father and the Son in your God-concept could be that you reject a perfect, human model of faith that gives balance and clarity to each of the Divine Persons of the Blessed Trinity in our understanding of God.

As Axehead said, there is no 'expense of the Father and the Son'.

I had thought you'd have picked that up from verses I've posted previously, (and from your own Bible readings), that Jesus taught that the reception of the Holy Spirit by individuals is what enables the Father and the Son to make their home in a person. John 14:23, John 17:17 - 23, Luke 24:49, Malachi 4:6, Luke 1:13, 14, 15, 16, 17.

Next, the discussion about 'flesh' or 'Spirit', is because the Holy Spirit cannot dwell within an uncircumcised heart, out of which proceeds all sorts of sin: For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: Matthew 15:19, Deuteronomy 10:16, Colossians 2:9, 10, 11, 12, 13.

John 12:24 is important because Jesus sets His teaching apart with that word 'Except', again. It cannot be ignored.

If "Holy Spirit" filled Pentecostals were infallible in their teachings, there would not be 700 Pentecostal denominations that formed in a mere 1 century. I am not questioning their sincerity, I am trying to tell you that the Holy Spirit alone is not the be-all and end-all of being a Christian.

There is no such thing as a live Christian without the Holy Spirit's indwelling, but there are many who think it's optional or impossible. As a result of carnal reasoning by those who don't have the Holy Spirit, a ministry of death arises, and this is, frequently, accompanied by other spirits and occult practices going alongside nominal Christian claims.

On a theological level, if you have Jesus in your heart, you have God the Father and the Holy Spirit in your heart.

Yes, if you like that kind of langage. Just rememeber that the Holy Spirit will only appear to testify of truth, and if a person did not receive Jesus, the Spirit will not be able to testify to His presence in the person's heart.

If the Holy Spirit tells you something in prayer, you are hearing the voice of the Father and Jesus too.... All three of the Divine Personalities cannot be separated because they share the same divine substance.

John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit. ...'. Ephesians 2:18, Romans 5:2.

The Holy Spirit is the Love between the Father and the Son.

It would be more scriptural to say 'the Holy Spirit is truth'. 1 John 5:6,

John 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but ye know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knows God hears us; he that is not of God hears not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

But if over-emphasizing the Holy Spirit is easier for you to express your faith, then I have no business standing in your way.
God bless you.

I've spoken about the Holy Spirit, much, is because He's essential. Every believer must have a personal pentecost, to receive the Spirit of adoption which cries, 'Father' - Romans 8:15, Romans 9:4, Ephesians 1:5.

I don't think you've stood in my way. The promptings of the Holy Spirit enable a Christian to function.

 

[Axehead]

Hi Axehead, Thank you for your comments.

My point was that after the Apostles had departed this earthly existence there had to be structure constructed to carry on the tradition of teaching. And an institution is a poor substitute for the real thing - but that is all we have.

Why substitute anything for the REAL THING?

Jesus said, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Mat_18:20)

I don't see anything missing here, do you? I think we don't need "poor substitutes" because the "REAL THING" is still here on earth.

But you are correct, it is a "poor substitute".

 

[Rex]

Hi Axehead, Thank you for your comments.

My point was that after the Apostles had departed this earthly existence there had to be structure constructed to carry on the tradition of teaching. And an institution is a poor substitute for the real thing - but that is all we have.

If I could comment from behind Axehead
The disciples were scattered and hiding after the cross. There was no origination, no HS. The message of salvation threw Jesus would have died right there had not the Lord directed the whole affair after the resurrection. He's in charge from his throne, that;s from where he established it from then, as well as today.

He is the head of the church always has been always will be.

You know Jesus may return in the same manner as He left

Jesus left all men, Risen he appeared to those He had called. Organized and empowered them, then acceded on high,
Return, Jesus appears to those He has called, organize and empower them, then descend to the earth appearing to all men

 

[Axehead]

If I could comment from behind Axehead
The disciples were scattered and hiding after the cross. There was no origination, no HS. The message of salvation threw Jesus would have died right there had not the Lord directed the whole affair after the resurrection. He's in charge from his throne, that;s from where he established it from then, as well as today.

He is the head of the church always has been always will be.

I like that, Rex. "He's in charge!" That is absolutely correct! It is His program, and He is in charge while little men on earth are playing god, false prophets and false christs, deluding themselves into thinking that Jesus is behind them 100%.

We need to come to HIM everyday, saying "reporting for duty, Lord" and receive our daily orders from HIM. There are big Kahuna's, and Big Cheese's on earth but not in His Kingdom. He is over ALL.

 

[Rex]

AMen
did you notice my thought after the post.
I have a habit of continuing after I post LOL

Jesus establish the whole affair from the air. Meaning His church. after the resurrection

 

[epostle1]

What the Church taught and what was believed about the Holy Spirit in the 4rth century is still taught and believed today. I'll go with consistency.

"The Holy Spirit has been in some ways the neglected person of the Blessed Trinity. A clear understanding of the Spirit almost seems beyond our reach", said Pope Benedict, going on to explain, however, that St. Augustine comes to our aid with his three "particular insights" about the Holy Spirit "as the bond of unity within the Blessed Trinity: unity as communion, unity as abiding love, and unity as giving and gift".​

St. Augustine affirms, Benedict XVI recalled, "that the two words 'Holy' and 'Spirit' refer to what is divine about God; in other words what is shared by the Father and the Son: their communion. So, if the distinguishing characteristic of the Holy Spirit is to be what is shared by the Father and the Son, Augustine concluded that the Spirit's particular quality is unity".​

"True unity could never be founded upon relationships which deny the equal dignity of other persons. Nor is unity simply the sum total of the groups through which we sometimes attempt to 'define' ourselves. In fact, only in the life of communion is unity sustained and human identity fulfilled: we recognise the common need for God, we respond to the unifying presence of the Holy Spirit, and we give ourselves to one another in service".​

Augustine's second insight concerns love, the Pope explained. "Ideas or voices which lack love - even if they seem sophisticated or knowledgeable - cannot be 'of the Spirit'", he said. "Furthermore, love has a particular trait: ... to abide. By its nature love is enduring". Thus "we catch a further glimpse of how much the Holy Spirit offers our world: love which dispels uncertainty; love which overcomes the fear of betrayal; love which carries eternity within; the true love which draws us into a unity that abides!"​

As for the third insight, "the Holy Spirit as gift", Benedict XVI said: "The Holy Spirit is God eternally giving Himself; like a never-ending spring He pours forth nothing less than Himself. In view of this ceaseless gift, we come to see the limitations of all that perishes, the folly of the consumerist mindset. We begin to understand why the quest for novelty leaves us unsatisfied and wanting. Are we not looking for an eternal gift? The spring that will never run dry?"​

"Dear young people, we have seen that it is the Holy Spirit Who brings about the wonderful communion of believers in Jesus Christ. True to His nature as giver and gift alike, He is even now working through you. Inspired by the insights of St. Augustine: let unifying love be your measure; abiding love your challenge; self-giving love your mission!"​

"Let us invoke the Holy Spirit: He is the artisan of God's works", the Pope concluded. "Let His gifts shape you! Just as the Church travels the same journey with all humanity, so too you are called to exercise the Spirit's gifts amidst the ups and downs of your daily life. Let your faith mature through your studies, work, sport, music and art. Let it be sustained by prayer and nurtured by the Sacraments. ... In the end, life is not about accumulation. It is much more than success. To be truly alive is to be transformed from within, open to the energy of God's love. In accepting the power of the Holy Spirit you too can transform your families, communities and nations. Set free the gifts! Let wisdom, courage, awe and reverence be the marks of greatness!"​

source​