The Church is Not the Source of Truth

[dragonfly]

Hi kepha,

This highlight caught my attention, from your post # 30 (p1).

Propaganda says the Church awards infallibility to herself. This is false. It is a gift from God.

If it's not in scripture, you don't need to believe it, or make believe God said it at all. You should suspect everything that's not in scripture, because it has the potential to send you to hell. Neither make you own claims for a statement that God Himself sees through like a flimsy veil. However, God is infallible. Those who are in Him, who abide in Him, cannot fail, and, the gates of hell will not prevail against His body, the Church.

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

His Church are in Him and live through Him: 1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him, just as He lives through His members: John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.


A good tree infallibly brings forth good fruit. Amen.

Hi kepha,

Here is another large misrepresentation of God's word.

There is nothing is scripture about individual believers being led by the Spirit apart from the Church.

This statement is the exact opposite of what scripture tells us. That's not a small mistake.


How do we know that believers are to be led by the Spirit?

It started in the garden of Eden, when God who is a spirit, gave the first man and the woman His commands.


Later, God spoke directly to fallen men, and continued in this mode until He sent His Son:

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.


Jesus indicates the same individualised instruction from the Father as He was receiving, should be our expectation. The question becomes this: upon whose 'fatherly' instruction are we acting?

John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.


How will we answer this question?

'... Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me?
He that has seen me has seen the Father ... ' John 14:9


What will we hear when we ask,

Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Matt 7:22, 23.


As the Head of His body, the church - aka the holy of holies made without hands - Jesus Christ is well able to govern His people through the Holy Spirit in each of them, which He had promised they'd receive. John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but ye know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


When Paul is speaking about 'children', he is speaking about individuals who now have the same spiritual parent - God.

The reality of the body of Christ functioning under His Headship, is: every one member has a part to play, and every one member is connected directly to Him through the Holy Spirit by which they hold to the Head.

Ephesians 4, 1 Corinthians 12, Romans 12.

One day we will stand alone before Jesus Christ, and He will know who obeyed the Father's will. You might think it doesn't matter if you're not born again, but that would be a mistake; because no excuse will prevent judgment.

Hebrews 9:27 And ... it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent: 31 Because he has appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he has ordained; [whereof] he has given assurance to all [men], in that he has raised him from the dead.


The whole point of God giving each believer the Holy Spirit, is to be able to obey His commands, as Peter states:

Acts 5:29 '... We ought to obey God rather than men... 32 '... we are his witnesses of these things;

and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

 

[epostle1]

It would seem that anyone that disagrees with your perspective is labeled anti-catholic. Me being one "who disagrees", would you be offended if I referred to you and catholics as anti-protestant?

Yes, because the Catholic Church is not formally anti-Protestant. I am anti-anti-Catholic. Most anti-Protestants are anti-everything, except for the groupie feel good cult they belong to that was founded in the last 10-20 years, maybe earlier than that. Oh, and lets not forget the thousands of unqualified "preachers" who get their ministers license just by filling out a government form so they can legally "perform" weddings and strut their all holy ego into a mic.

And BTW I confronted your anti-protestant cherry picking in my last post.

I made no such statement. I said, "Maybe this explains the fundamentalists aversion the the writings of the earliest Christians, also known as the Early Church Fathers. Some say the unanimity of their teachings is infallible and I tend to agree with that, but they are not the Magisterium, no matter how many snippets an anti-Catholic may cherry pick in trying to prover something."

That means that Bible-cult hate sites will make long lists of Early Church Fathers quotes to try and prove something they never taught. Scroll up to post #38. Anti-Catholics will read the ECF's the same way a Muslim reads the Qu'ran. They haven't a clue.

This is the second time you have misquoted me.

Maybe conciliatory is the proper term when used in the form of reconcile "conciliatory adj; intended to placate or reconcile" As use in the sentence. To reconcile those back to faith in the catholic church.

Protestantism left Catholicism, not the other way around. Jesus prayed that we may be one. John 17:21 We take that seriously. Do you?
Everything that is true in your group (enter name here) came from the Catholic Church.

As it says below catholics teach all blessing come from the RCC

Not only do you misquote me, you misquote the Catechism. It doesn't say that at all. It says the opposite of your literal gymnastics.

All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,[sup]275[/sup] and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."[sup]276[/sup]

[sup]For example, if a church teaches the Trinity, and the Catholic Church teaches the Trinity, that in itself is a call to unity without any effort on anybody's part. But you refuse to get it. [/sup]

I've had catholics affirm I have been born from above but insist its from the catholic church.

That is partly true. If you have been baptized with water according to the Chalcedon formula, as many Protestants have, that baptism is recognized as valid by the Catholic Church. Many converts are surprised to learn they do not need re-baptism. If you have been "born from above" without water, then you had a conversion experience, not to be confused with the biblical "born from above" where Jesus requires us to be born of WATER and HOLY SPIRIT. Some churches leave out the water and call it "born from above". If anything divides Protestantism more its baptism. The early Christians wrote more on baptism and the Eucharist than anything else, but you accept none of it. Does your "church" recognize the baptism of other churches as valid?

And catholics also teach that if you are not a member you are "not in full communion.

We are trying to be polite.

Some more from your link


So lets just be honest shall we and not paint a picture of the catholic church as being tolerant or accepting "conciliatory" of others, she stands alone and looks down her pointing finger on all that is not catholic.

Quote the finger pointing please, or spare me your noisy gongs and clanging symbols.

JOINT DECLARATION
ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION​

by the Lutheran World Federation
and the Catholic Church​

The long and short of it is that men have replaced the Holy Spirit If you truly follow catholic teaching.

You mean if you truly follow your contortion-isms.

That bit of truth rears its head,,,,,,,,,, as you demonstrated by inferring the HS is not doing a very good job

The Holy Spirit is doing a good job, it is the thousands of churches, yours included, who claim to have the Holy Spirit and teach conflicting doctrines. That is not the Holy Spirit, but you don't get it. Then you say it is men in the Catholic Church that replace the Holy Spirit. What a joke.

You misquoted me three times, and have misrepresented Catholic teaching at least twice. I will not have a discussion with a gorilla on PMS nor will I beat my head against the wall trying to explain something to someone who is just looking for a fight. Off to the iggy bin with you!. Good bye.

 

[Rex]

Yes, because the Catholic Church is not formally anti-Protestant. I am anti-anti-Catholic. Most anti-Protestants are anti-everything, except for the groupie feel good cult they belong to that was founded in the last 10-20 years, maybe earlier than that. Oh, and lets not forget the thousands of unqualified "preachers" who get their ministers license just by filling out a government form so they can legally "perform" weddings and strut their all holy ego into a mic. .

So you would be offended if I called you anti-protestant.
But yet you see fit to carry on with your anti-catholic remarks among other things like a rabid dog hmmm...................unwilling to extend the same courtesy to others you expect for yourself.

That attitude would lead one to believe you consider yourself above others.
I find it useless to even consider a conversation or relationship with someone like yourself.

 

[Episkopos]

All this quibling is pointless unless there is an understanding of the will of God in Christ.

All institutions are from men and have indoctrinated people (who do NOT have enough experience in spiritual things to discern where the errors lie) to defend the indoctrination they have received.

The Catholics over-emphasize unity at the cost of a personal walk with Christ. The Protestants over emphasize the personal benefits of Christ at the expense of a living church that has the oneness of Christ.

Both arguments are moot since they only take a partial view of the true apostolic doctrine. Why do you think God allows the denominations to exist???? Each denomination champions one truth (in the face of other truths) and it is only as ALL the truth is maintained that we see the true unity AND spiritual depth that is recorded in the bible. But men don't want to listen...they would rather spew more dogma. How is this love?????

If one opens one's eyes (without prejudice if that is possible for people) the truth shows itself as being a larger entity than what men can control. God remains in control...HE invents (or at least allows) Communism...to thwart rampant capitalism...and to allow the church to be persecuted and therefore remain vital. HE invents (or at least allows) Islam...to judge both the Christian and Jewish aspirations to create a new Babel. God does things for HIS purpose. Would that people get with HIS purpose.

God is in control!!!! But who will stop taking a partial partisan view and come out from the human merry-go-round???

 

[Axehead]

All this quibling is pointless unless there is an understanding of the will of God in Christ.

All institutions are from men and have indoctrinated people (who do NOT have enough experience in spiritual things to discern where the errors lie) to defend the indoctrination they have received.

The Catholics over-emphasize unity at the cost of a personal walk with Christ.

The Catholics don't have unity. That is only an illusion and what they want you to believe. What they do have is conformity and conformity is not unity. Catholicism has a lot of sub-cultures and cliches within it and it is patently misleading and dishonest to always be trumpeting unity. What they are trying to get everyone to believe is that their conformity IS unity. If they had true unity of the Spirit then their interactions with non-Catholics would not be hostile but rather filled with love and reconciliation. What most people feel (and it is no different on this board) from the Roman Catholic Church and its apologists is the pressure to CONFORM. The pressure to conform is also in non-Catholic circles, to be sure and this is not from the Spirit of God.

There are multitudes of schisms and divisions within the Roman Catholic Church and no fellowship in the Spirit amongst those that they vehemently disagree with, however, they push conformity to their man-made rules and regulations but they fail in even getting everyone to come into conformity with the "Mother Church". Just look at youtube and all the priests that support homosexual marriage versus the ones that don't. This is one of the problems when you are trying to build an earthly kingdom based on CONFORMITY and the absence of the Spirit of God in the regeneration of hearts. You must maintain a "Mother Church" that controls all other churches yet it is an impossible task to bring unregenerate men into conformity let alone true unity.

They beat the strawman of "Protestant" disunity to death somehow thinking that particular exercise proves they have true unity. I won't muddy up this thread showing proof by many links and videos that Catholic unity is a myth, but conformity is not. Which is to mean they don't have complete conformity but submission to Rome is always the goal.

They bring up Protestant ministers that are not qualified as if that proves that their Priests ARE (regardless of the heinous sins they are involved in they can still turn wine into blood).

True believers from different churches know how to keep the unity of the SPIRIT in the bond of peace.

Jesus Christ is looking for Unity in Him, not conformity to man.

We see this "spirit of conformity" to men also in non-Catholic circles. The Roman Catholic Church does not have a corner on the market of "controlling spirits". We have seen this in the "Shepherding and Discipleship" movement in the late 70's and early 80's. I would like to talk more about this "spirit of conformity" which is nothing more than a controlling and manipulative spirit that seeks to "lead" Christians instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to lead them.

Axehead

 

[Episkopos]

The Catholics don't have unity. That is only an illusion and what they want you to believe. What they do have is conformity and conformity is not unity. Catholicism has a lot of sub-cultures and cliches within it and it is patently misleading and dishonest to always be trumpeting unity. What they are trying to get everyone to believe is that their conformity IS unity. If they had true unity of the Spirit then their interactions with non-Catholics would not be hostile but rather filled with love and reconciliation. What most people feel (and it is no different on this board) from the Roman Catholic Church and its apologists is the pressure to CONFORM. The pressure to conform is also in non-Catholic circles, to be sure and this is not from the Spirit of God.

All of man's ways are illusions. The Catholics TEACH unity because they see it in the bible and because it has been given them to emphasize this point...but of course they are unable to actually experience that unity because men can't control it. The fact remains that until the individuals who are born from above understand the true unity of those who are in Christ, the Catholics will remain there as a marker of sorts...to remind people that the bible speaks of unity. It is like training wheels on a bike. Once a person learns proper balance the need for training wheels is obviated. So it is with the RC's. Once the people of God learn what this unity is...at the depth it is to have...then "Babylon" will fall (all institutions). When I say..fall..I mean they will be exposed fully for the errors they promote. But until a real manifestation of the Body is brought forth...we will need the continued harping of the RC's about unity!!!

There are multitudes of schisms and divisions within the Roman Catholic Church and no fellowship in the Spirit amongst those that they vehemently disagree with, however, they push conformity to their man-made rules and regulations but they fail in even getting everyone to come into conformity with the "Mother Church". Just look at youtube and all the priests that support homosexual marriage versus the ones that don't. This is one of the problems when you are trying to build an earthly kingdom based on CONFORMITY and the absence of the Spirit of God in the regeneration of hearts. You must maintain a "Mother Church" that controls all other churches yet it is an impossible task to bring unregenerate men into conformity let alone true unity.

Again, the Catholics are merely pointing out the lack they see elsewhere.

They beat the strawman of "Protestant" disunity to death somehow thinking that particular exercise proves they have true unity. I won't muddy up this thread showing proof by many links and videos that Catholic unity is a myth, but conformity is not. Which is to mean they don't have complete conformity but submission to Rome is always the goal.

See above

They bring up Protestant ministers that are not qualified as if that proves that their Priests ARE (regardless of the heinous sins they are involved in they can still turn wine into blood).

True believers from different churches know how to keep the unity of the SPIRIT in the bond of peace.

Jesus Christ is looking for Unity in Him, not conformity to man.

We see this "spirit of conformity" to men also in non-Catholic circles. The Roman Catholic Church does not have a corner on the market of "controlling spirits". We have seen this in the "Shepherding and Discipleship" movement in the late 70's and early 80's. I would like to talk more about this "spirit of conformity" which is nothing more than a controlling and manipulative spirit that seeks to "lead" Christians instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to lead them.

Axehead

One must understand why God allows these voices to persist for so many centuries. God is trying to get our attention. If we look to men...we will see their lack and their errors. All sides do this. But who is seated with Christ and has the mind of Christ to see the overall picture??? So it is equally an error to just ignore the arguments of the RC's and point to something they don't understand. Or is because we do not understand and are as blind in our ways as they are in theirs that we can't understand them?

 

[Rex]

All of man's ways are illusions. The Catholics TEACH unity because they see it in the bible and because it has been given them to emphasize this point...but of course they are unable to actually experience that unity because men can't control it. The fact remains that until the individuals who are born from above understand the true unity of those who are in Christ, the Catholics will remain there as a marker of sorts...to remind people that the bible speaks of unity. It is like training wheels on a bike. Once a person learns proper balance the need for training wheels is obviated. So it is with the RC's. Once the people of God learn what this unity is...at the depth it is to have...then "Babylon" will fall (all institutions). When I say..fall..I mean they will be exposed fully for the errors they promote. But until a real manifestation of the Body is brought forth...we will need the continued harping of the RC's about unity!!!

That is nicely written and well thought out but I don't think most christians would dispute unity, so what unity are you speaking of? A unity under Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit or a unity under the infallible church, pope and his magisterium? But the church is listed first as receiving it dose of infallibility according to the catechism, then the magisterium and pope. The catholic church has literally hundreds of different sects but the common denominator is found below, the one thing they all have in common is a belief in the infallibility of the church and it high offices. The only thing that matters to those in comunion with Rome is that Rome has placed a stamp of approval on it. You can dance around and call it christian unity but its simply not suited to my pallet. Do you approve of the requirements found in 889? Just what is a supernatural sense of faith?
By a "supernatural sense of faith" the People of God, under the guidance of the Church's living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith."
Do you believe Christ confered on her "the church" a share in His own infallibility?
But to anyone that believes in the infallibility of men there you have it, it even comes with a magisteriums guarantee
I think your unity speech is comparing apples to oranges. I don't wish to be united under the authority of a self proclaimed infallible church or man.

Jesus remove the yoke of bondage I'm in no rush to receive a new one.


889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a "supernatural sense of faith" the People of God, under the guidance of the Church's living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith."[sup]417[/sup]

890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:

891 "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council.[sup]418[/sup] When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"[sup]419[/sup] and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."[sup]420[/sup] This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.[sup]421[/sup]

 

[jiggyfly]

Jesus is the source of truth. The Church did not authenticate the mission of Jesus or His message. I don't think the Jewish priests and scribes were gladly verifying Jesus' claims and teachings.

So, how were His teachings authenticated and confirmed as from God?

1. Jesus did not expect people to believe Him without the confirmation of miracles.
"If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true" (John 5:31)

So, Jesus is saying that if all He has going for Him is just what He says about Himself then He is an impostor.

2. Jesus said that the miracles that He performed by the power of God, authenticated His message.
"But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me" (John 5:36)

3. "Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me" (John 10:25)

4. Jesus even tells us not to believe Him unless He does the works of His Father (God).

"If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him" (John 10:37-38)

5. "If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father" (John 15:24)

6. "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:" (Act 2:22)

7. "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him" (Act 10:38)

Scripture affirms (and Jesus affirms) that any message that comes from God through man must bear verification and show authentication from the Holy Spirit.

The Apostles and other New Testament prophets were teachers of truth and the same miraculous manifestations of the Holy Spirit authenticated their ministry and message. They were authenticated by God (the Holy Spirit) and not by man. I'll show some scriptures pertaining to the Apostles, later.

The Church is not the source of God's message of truth, but rather the product of God's Truth.

Axehead

Good post Axehead, "The Church is not the source of God's message of truth" very true indeed. Nor is the church the guardian, teacher or revelator of God's truth which is Jesus the Christ, those of the church or body of Christ are simply witnesses of the Truth.

 

[epostle1]

The Church is Visible and One

Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.

Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, "I will build my 'Church' (not churches)." There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because "binding and loosing" are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose.

John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.

John 17:11,21,23 - Jesus prays that His followers may be perfectly one as He is one with the Father. Jesus' oneness with the Father is perfect. It can never be less. Thus, the oneness Jesus prays for cannot mean the varied divisions of Christianity that have resulted since the Protestant reformation. There is perfect oneness only in the Catholic Church.

John 17:9-26 - Jesus' prayer, of course, is perfectly effective, as evidenced by the miraculous unity of the Catholic Church during her 2,000 year history.

John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.

Rom. 15:5 - Paul says that we as Christians must live in harmony with one another. But this can only happen if there is one Church with one body of faith. This can only happen by the charity of the Holy Spirit who dwells within the Church.

Rom. 16:17 - Paul warns us to avoid those who create dissensions and difficulties. This includes those who break away from the Church and create one denomination after another. We need to avoid their teaching, and bring them back into the one fold of Christ.

1 Cor. 1:10- Paul prays for no dissensions and disagreements among Christians, being of the same mind and the same judgment. How can Protestant pastors say that they are all of the same mind and the same judgment on matters of faith and morals?

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - again, the Church does not mean "invisible" unity, because Paul called it the body (not the soul) of Christ. Bodies are visible, and souls are invisible.

Eph. 4:11-14 - God gives members of the Church various gifts in order to attain to the unity of the faith. This unity is only found in the Catholic Church.

Eph. 4:3-5 - we are of one body, one Spirit, one faith and one baptism. This requires doctrinal unity, not 30,000 different denominations.

Eph. 5:25 - the Church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus has only one Bride, not many.

Eph. 5:30; Rom. 12:4-5; 1 Cor. 6:15 - we, as Christians, are one visible body in Christ, not many bodies, many denominations.

Phil. 1:27 - Paul commands that we stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the Gospel.

Phil. 2:2 - Paul prays that Christians be of the same mind, of one accord. Yet there are 30,000 different "Protest"ant denominations?

Col. 1:18 - Christ is the Head of the one body, the Church. He is not the Head of many bodies or many sects.

1 Tim. 6:4 - Paul warns about those who seek controversy and disputes about words. There must be a universal authority to appeal to who can trace its authority back to Christ.

2 Tim. 2:14 - do not dispute about words which only ruin the hearers. Two-thousand years of doctrinal unity is a sign of Christ's Church.

2 Tim. 4:3 - this is a warning on following our own desires and not the teachings of God. It is not a cafeteria where we pick and choose. We must humble ourselves and accept all of Christ's teachings which He gives us through His Church.

Rev. 7:9 - the heavenly kingdom is filled with those from every nation and from all tribes, peoples and tongues. This is "catholic," which means universal.

1 Peter 3:8 - Peter charges us to have unity of spirit. This is impossible unless there is a central teaching authority given to us by God.

Gen. 12:2-3 - since Abram God said all the families of the earth shall be blessed. This family unity is fulfilled only in the Catholic Church.

Dan. 7:14 - Daniel prophesies that all peoples, nations and languages shall serve His kingdom. Again, this catholicity is only found in the Catholic Church.

1 Cor. 14:33 - God cannot be the author of the Protestant confusion. Only the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church claims and proves to be Christ's Church.
source

 

[Rex]

The Church is Visible and One

Here's one you missed from your favorite copy paste site
http://www.scripture...the_church.html

Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

As a side note: just who or what is the RC church, according to the infallible leadership. Is it a building a man a group, a supernatural thing like mentioned in catechism 889? It can't be every catholic believer "the laity" their not infallible.

What I'm getting at is how can a church be infallible?,

It just weird in the above catholic statement that the church is the finial authority but then it says, she "the church" must be prevented from teaching error? That doesn't even make sense.

 

[jiggyfly]

The Church is Visible and One

Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.

Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, "I will build my 'Church' (not churches)." There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because "binding and loosing" are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose.

John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.

John 17:11,21,23 - Jesus prays that His followers may be perfectly one as He is one with the Father. Jesus' oneness with the Father is perfect. It can never be less. Thus, the oneness Jesus prays for cannot mean the varied divisions of Christianity that have resulted since the Protestant reformation. There is perfect oneness only in the Catholic Church.

John 17:9-26 - Jesus' prayer, of course, is perfectly effective, as evidenced by the miraculous unity of the Catholic Church during her 2,000 year history.

John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.

Rom. 15:5 - Paul says that we as Christians must live in harmony with one another. But this can only happen if there is one Church with one body of faith. This can only happen by the charity of the Holy Spirit who dwells within the Church.

Rom. 16:17 - Paul warns us to avoid those who create dissensions and difficulties. This includes those who break away from the Church and create one denomination after another. We need to avoid their teaching, and bring them back into the one fold of Christ.

1 Cor. 1:10- Paul prays for no dissensions and disagreements among Christians, being of the same mind and the same judgment. How can Protestant pastors say that they are all of the same mind and the same judgment on matters of faith and morals?

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - again, the Church does not mean "invisible" unity, because Paul called it the body (not the soul) of Christ. Bodies are visible, and souls are invisible.

Eph. 4:11-14 - God gives members of the Church various gifts in order to attain to the unity of the faith. This unity is only found in the Catholic Church.

Eph. 4:3-5 - we are of one body, one Spirit, one faith and one baptism. This requires doctrinal unity, not 30,000 different denominations.

Eph. 5:25 - the Church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus has only one Bride, not many.

Eph. 5:30; Rom. 12:4-5; 1 Cor. 6:15 - we, as Christians, are one visible body in Christ, not many bodies, many denominations.

Phil. 1:27 - Paul commands that we stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the Gospel.

Phil. 2:2 - Paul prays that Christians be of the same mind, of one accord. Yet there are 30,000 different "Protest"ant denominations?

Col. 1:18 - Christ is the Head of the one body, the Church. He is not the Head of many bodies or many sects.

1 Tim. 6:4 - Paul warns about those who seek controversy and disputes about words. There must be a universal authority to appeal to who can trace its authority back to Christ.

2 Tim. 2:14 - do not dispute about words which only ruin the hearers. Two-thousand years of doctrinal unity is a sign of Christ's Church.

2 Tim. 4:3 - this is a warning on following our own desires and not the teachings of God. It is not a cafeteria where we pick and choose. We must humble ourselves and accept all of Christ's teachings which He gives us through His Church.

Rev. 7:9 - the heavenly kingdom is filled with those from every nation and from all tribes, peoples and tongues. This is "catholic," which means universal.

1 Peter 3:8 - Peter charges us to have unity of spirit. This is impossible unless there is a central teaching authority given to us by God.

Gen. 12:2-3 - since Abram God said all the families of the earth shall be blessed. This family unity is fulfilled only in the Catholic Church.

Dan. 7:14 - Daniel prophesies that all peoples, nations and languages shall serve His kingdom. Again, this catholicity is only found in the Catholic Church.

1 Cor. 14:33 - God cannot be the author of the Protestant confusion. Only the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church claims and proves to be Christ's Church.
source

Seeing that so many of the priests within the Roman Catholic religion are homosexuals and child molesters, do you think that this is a true witness of Christ?

 

[aspen]

And many people in the Bible were murders and adulterers - Jesus uses the weak - He is sort of known for that.......

 

[epostle1]

Seeing that so many of the priests within the Roman Catholic religion are homosexuals and child molesters, do you think that this is a true witness of Christ?

What? Is that all you've got? Play the scandal/homo card that you think you have an ace-in-the-hole when its just the joker? "So may priests..." HA! Prove it ! You will use any tactic to detract from the truth of scripture. I refuse to discuss it here. Open up a new thread. 99.98% OF PRIESTS ARE INNOCENT


IV The Church is Infallible and Supernatural (italics mine)

Isa. 35:8, 54:13-17 - this prophecy refers to the Church as the Holy Way where sons will be taught by God and they will not err. The Church has been given the gift of infallibility when teaching about faith and morals, where her sons are taught directly by God and will not err. This gift of infallibility means that the Church is prevented from teaching error by the power of the Holy Spirit (it does not mean that Church leaders do not sin!)

Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 - the early Church is identified as the "Way" prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where fools will not err therein.

Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.

Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.

Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

Matt. 28:20 - Jesus promises that He will be with the Church always. Jesus' presence in the Church assures infallible teaching on faith and morals. With Jesus present, we can never be deceived.

Mark 8:33 - non-Catholics sometimes use this verse to down play Peter's authority. This does not make sense. In this verse, Jesus rebukes Peter to show the import of His Messianic role as the Savior of humanity. Moreover, at this point, Peter was not yet the Pope with the keys, and Jesus did not rebuke Peter for his teaching. Jesus rebuked Peter for his lack of understanding.

Luke 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me. (not individual opinions) Jesus is very clear that the bishops of the Church speak with Christ's infallible authority.

Luke 22:32 - Jesus prays for Peter, that his faith may not fail. Jesus' prayer for Peter's faith is perfectly efficacious, and this allows Peter to teach the faith without error (which means infallibly). (anti-Catholics must argue that God did not answer Jesus' prayer.)

John 11:51-52 - some non-Catholics argue that sinners cannot have the power to teach infallibly. But in this verse, God allows Caiaphas to prophesy infallibly, even though he was evil and plotted Jesus' death. God allows sinners to teach infallibly, just as He allows sinners to become saints. As a loving Father, He exalts His children, and is bound by His own justice to give His children a mechanism to know truth from error.

1 & 2 Peter - for example, Peter denied Christ, he was rebuked by his greatest bishop (Paul), and yet he wrote two infallible encyclicals. Further, if Peter could teach infallibly by writing, why could he not also teach infallibly by preaching? And why couldn't his successors so teach as well?

Gen. to Deut.; Psalms; Paul - Moses and maybe Paul were murderers and David was an adulterer and murderer, but they also wrote infallibly. God uses us sinful human beings because when they respond to His grace and change their lives, we give God greater glory and His presence is made more manifest in our sinful world.

John 14:16 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church forever. (not individual opinions) The Spirit prevents the teaching of error on faith and morals. It is guaranteed because the guarantee comes from God Himself who cannot lie.

John 14:26 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, cloning and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.

John 16:12 - Jesus had many things to say but the apostles couldn't bear them at that point. This demonstrates that the Church's infallible doctrine develops over time. All public Revelation was completed with the death of the last apostle, but the doctrine of God's Revelation develops as our minds and hearts are able to welcome and understand it. God teaches His children only as much as they can bear, for their own good.

John 16:13 - Jesus promises that the Spirit will "guide" the Church (not individual opinions) into all truth. Our knowledge of the truth develops as the Spirit guides the Church, and this happens over time.

1 Cor. 2:13 Paul explains that what the ministers teach is taught, not by human wisdom, but by the Spirit. The ministers are led to interpret and understand the spiritual truths God gives them over time. (not individual opinions)

Eph. 4:13,15 Paul indicates that attaining to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God to mature manhood is a process. We are to grow up in every way into Christ. Doctrine (which means teaching) develops as we understand God's Revelation.

Acts 15:27-28 - the apostles know that their teaching is being guided by the Holy Spirit. (not individual opinions) He protects the Church from deception.

Gal. 2:11-14 - non-Catholics sometimes use this verse to diminish Peter's evident authority over the Church. This is misguided. In this verse, Paul does not oppose Peter's teaching, but his failure to live by it. Infallibility (teaching without error) does not mean impeccability (living without sinning). Peter was the one who taught infallibly on the Gentile's salvation in Acts 10,11. With this rebuke, Paul is really saying "Peter, you are our leader, you teach infallibly, and yet your conduct is inconsistent with these facts. You of all people!" The verse really underscores, and not diminishes, the importance of Peter's leadership in the Church.

Eph. 3:10 - the wisdom of God is known, even to the intellectually superior angels, through the Church (not the Scriptures). This is an incredible verse, for it tells us that God's infinite wisdom comes to us through the Church. (not individual opinions) For that to happen, the Church must be protected from teaching error on faith and morals (or she wouldn't be endowed with the wisdom of God).

Eph. 3:9 - this, in fact, is a mystery hidden for all ages - that God manifests His wisdom through one infallible Church for all people.

Eph. 3:20 - God's glory is manifested in the Church by the power of the Spirit that works within the Church's leaders. As a Father, God exalts His children to roles of leadership within the body of Christ.

Eph. 5:23-27, Col. 1:18 - Christ is the head of the Church, His Bride, for which He died to make it Holy and without blemish. There is only one Church, just as Christ only has one Bride.

Eph. 5:32- Paul calls the Church a "mystery." This means that the significance of the Church as the kingdom of God in our midst cannot be understood by reason alone. Understanding the Church also requires faith. "Church" does not mean a building of believers. That is not a mystery. Non-Catholics often view church as mere community, but not the supernatural mystery of Christ physically present among us.

1 Thess. 5:21 - Paul commands us to test everything. But we must have something against which to test. This requires one infallible guide that is available to us, and this guide is the Catholic Church, whose teachings on faith and morals have never changed.

1 Tim. 3:15 - Paul says the apostolic Church (not Scripture) is the pillar and foundation of the truth. But for the Church to be the pinnacle and foundation of truth, she must be protected from teaching error, or infallible. She also must be the Catholic Church, whose teachings on faith and morals have not changed for 2,000 years. God loves us so much that He gave us a Church that infallibly teaches the truth so that we have the fullness of the means of salvation in His only begotten Son.

1 John 4:6 John writes that whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and successors to the apostles). Then John writes This is the way we discern truth and error. John does not say reading the Bible is the way we discern truth and error. But if listening to mere human beings helps us discern truth and error, God would have had to endow his chosen leaders with the special gift of infallibility, so that they would be prevented from teaching error.

Matt. to Rev. - we must also note that not all Christian doctrines are explicit in Scripture (for example, the dogma of the Blessed Trinity). However, infallibility is strongly inferred from the foregoing passages. Non-Catholic Christians should ask themselves why they accept the Church's teaching on the three persons of the Trinity, the two natures of Christ in one divine person, and the New Testament canon of Scripture (all defined by the Catholic Church), but not other teachings...????

source

If anti-Catholics have the right to post long lists of falsehoods and unrelated scripture passages, then I claim the same right to paste long lists of related, cohesive scripture quotes.

 

[Rex]

What? Is that all you've got? Play the scandal/homo card that you think you have an ace-in-the-hole when its just the joker? "So may priests..." HA! Prove it ! You will use any tactic to detract from the truth of scripture. I refuse to discuss it here. Open up a new thread. 99.98% OF PRIESTS ARE INNOCENT

Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

Looks to me like catholics don't know whether there coming or going. So which is it kepha the church or scripture?



You never addressed my question here it is again.
It just weird in the below catholic statement, the church is the finial authority but then it says, she "the church" must be prevented from teaching error? That doesn't even make sense.

Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

 

[Axehead]

Of course the elephant in the room are all the atrocities that were perpetuated by the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages (Middle Ages) and of course there were atrocities by Protestant groups. This illustrates why NO CHURCH is the Source of Truth.

We are to be a Witness and Expression of the Truth (Jesus Christ) but we are not the SOURCE.

Today, more and more denominations are no longer calling sin, SIN. Witness the denominations that affirm the LBGT lifestyle.

LGBT-affirming Christian denominations

This list is only going to grow and God will use the infiltration of the world into men's religious organizations to CALL those who are slumbering to AWAKE and COME OUT OF HER.


[background=transparent]850 Ireland's Catholic Priests want end to celibacy, allow gay relationships & women ordained[/background]

Catholic Priest calls Celibacy a MAN MADE LAW. He does say "it is not a dogma but it comes across that way because of how it is enforced." Says the call of celibacy has to come from God and not a human. Also, says Peter was married and the first 14 popes were married. Says a lot that I agree with. (there are 3 parts).

[background=transparent]Celibacy: A Bold New Vision Pt. 1 - The Defining Moment[/background]

There is so much confusion and division in the Catholic Church that it is just as preposterous to think that it is the Pillar and Ground of the Truth as it is to consider the Methodist, Lutheran or Episcopal Church as the Pillar and Ground of the Truth. The TRUTH all rests with JESUS, the Head of the Church. No one has ALL the TRUTH. Only Jesus has ALL of the TRUTH because HE IS TRUTH. We all have a part of it, but only He has all of it.

Good posting Rex and Jiggyfly.

Axehead

 

[epostle1]

Looks to me like catholics don't know whether there coming or going. So which is it kepha the church or scripture?

Scripture says the Church is the pillar and ground of truth. 1 Tim 3:15. You missed that when you skimmed over my post. If you skip over my posts, why should I answer your questions?

You never addressed my question here it is again.
It just weird in the below catholic statement, the church is the finial authority but then it says, she "the church" must be prevented from teaching error? That doesn't even make sense.

It's implied in scripture. The term is not there. It makes perfect sense. Infallibility is a negative charism.

Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

"The bible as final authority" can only work if everyone sees the same thing when they read it, and no outside authority is required. Not only is this impossible, "The bible as final authority" is not in scripture. The Bible is authoritative insofar as the interpreter is guaranteed by God to have superintendence of the Holy Spirit and teach without error. This gift comes from God, not the Church. The list of books in the New Testament is not in scripture, there is no inspired table of contents. You have to look outside of scripture to find out how that 27 list of books got there. The list of books of the New Testament was infallibly declared by the Catholic Church, and no amount of revisionism or propaganda is going to change that fact.

http://www.catholic....l-infallibility

Of course the elephant in the room are all the atrocities that were perpetuated by the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages (Middle Ages) and of course there were atrocities by Protestant groups. This illustrates why NO CHURCH is the Source of Truth.

We are to be a Witness and Expression of the Truth (Jesus Christ) but we are not the SOURCE.

Today, more and more denominations are no longer calling sin, SIN. Witness the denominations that affirm the LBGT lifestyle.

LGBT-affirming Christian denominations

This list is only going to grow and God will use the infiltration of the world into men's religious organizations to CALL those who are slumbering to AWAKE and COME OUT OF HER.


[background=transparent]850 Ireland's Catholic Priests want end to celibacy, allow gay relationships & women ordained[/background]

Catholic Priest calls Celibacy a MAN MADE LAW. He does say "it is not a dogma but it comes across that way because of how it is enforced." Says the call of celibacy has to come from God and not a human. Also, says Peter was married and the first 14 popes were married. Says a lot that I agree with. (there are 3 parts).

[background=transparent]Celibacy: A Bold New Vision Pt. 1 - The Defining Moment[/background]

There is so much confusion and division in the Catholic Church that it is just as preposterous to think that it is the Pillar and Ground of the Truth as it is to consider the Methodist, Lutheran or Episcopal Church as the Pillar and Ground of the Truth. The TRUTH all rests with JESUS, the Head of the Church. No one has ALL the TRUTH. Only Jesus has ALL of the TRUTH because HE IS TRUTH. We all have a part of it, but only He has all of it.

Good posting Rex and Jiggyfly.

Axehead

Jesus and Paul were celibates. It is a discipline in the Church, not a doctrine. That's why the Church can, and does, ordain married Protestant ministers who convert.

There have always been priests and bishops who dissent from Catholic teaching. You talk as if you have discovered something new.

You act as if you own Jesus with your ranting and raving. You have turned Him into an idol of your own making. Being your own pope in a church of one is no excuse to war against everyone else.

There is no confusion or division in Catholic teaching. Bad behavior of some is not teaching; it is just that, bad behavior. Priests who allegedly clamor for a married priesthood haven't taken their vows they made to God seriously.

The best definition of celibacy, I think, is the definition of Thomas Aquinas. Thomas calls celibacy a vacancy for God. To be a celibate means to be empty for God, to be free and open for his presence, to be available for his service. This view on celibacy, however, has often led to the false idea that being empty for God is a special privilege of celibates, while other people involved in all sorts of interpersonal rela­tionships are not empty but full, occupied as well as pre­occupied. If we look at celibacy as a state of life that upholds the importance of God's presence in our lives in contrast with other states of life that lead to entanglement in worldly affairs, we quickly slip into a dangerous elitism considering celibates as domes rising up amid the many low houses of the city.​

I think that celibacy can never be considered as a special prerogative of a few members of the people of God. Celi­bacy, in its deepest sense of creating and protecting empti­ness for God, is an essential part of all forms of Christian life: marriage, friendship, single life, and community life. We will never fully understand what it means to be celibate unless we recognize that celibacy is, first of all, an element, and even an essential element in the life of all Christians. Let me illustrate how this is true in marriage and friendship.​

Marriage is not a lifelong attraction of two individuals to each other, but a call for two people to witness together to God's love. The basis of marriage is not mutual affection, or feelings, or emotions and passions that we associate with love, but a vocation, a being elected to build together a house for God in this world, to be like the two cherubs whose outstretched wings sheltered the Ark of the Covenant and created a space where Yahweh could be present (Ex. 25:10-12, i Ki. 8:6-7). ​

Marriage is a relationship in which a man and a woman protect and nurture the inner sanctum within and between them and witness to that by the way in which they love each other. Marriage, too, is therefore a vacare Deo. Celibacy is part of marriage not simply because married couples may have to be able to live separated from each other for long periods of time, because they may need to abstain from sexual relations for physical, mental, or spiritual reasons, but also because the intimacy of marriage itself is an intimacy that is based on the common participation in a love greater than the love two people can offer each other. The real mystery of marriage is not that husband and wife love each other so much that they can find God in each other's lives, but that God loves them so much that they can discover each other more and more as living reminder of his divine presence. They are brought together, indeed, as two prayerful hands extended toward God and forming in this way a home for him in this world.​

The same thing is true for friendship. Deep and mature friendship does not mean that we keep looking each other in the eyes and are constantly impressed or enraptured by each other's beauty, talents, and gifts, but it means that together we look at him who calls us to his service.​

Thus marriage and friendship carry within their center a holy vacancy, a space that is for God and God alone. Without that holy center, marriage as well as friendship become like a city without domes, a city forgetting the meaning and direction of its own activities.​

Living reminders​

We can now see that celibacy has a very important place in our world. The celibate makes his life into a visible witness for the priority of God in our lives, a sign to remind all people that without the inner sanctum our lives lose contact with their source and goal. We belong to God. All people do. Celibates are people who, by not attaching themselves to any one particular person, remind us that the relationship with God is the beginning, the source, and the goal of all human relationships.​

By his or her life of non-attachment, the celibate lifts up an aspect of the Christian life of which we all need to be reminded. The celibate is like the clown in the circus who, between the scary acts of the trapeze artists and lion tamers, fumbles and falls, reminding us that all human activities are ultimately not so important as the virtuosi make us believe. Celibates live out the holy emptiness in their lives by not marrying, by not trying to build for themselves, a house or a fortune, by not trying to wield as much influence as possible, and by not filling their lives with events, people, or creations for which they will be remembered. They hope that by their empty lives God will be recognized as the source of all human thoughts and actions. Especially by not marrying and by abstaining from the most intimate expression of human love, the celibate becomes a living sign of the limits of interpersonal relationships and of the centrality of the inner sanctum that no human being may violate.​

To whom, then, is this witness directed? I dare to say that celibacy is, first of all, a witness to all those who are married. I wonder if we have explored enough the very important relationship between marriage and celibacy. Lately we have become aware of this intern-elatedness in a very painful way. The crisis of celibacy and the crisis of married life appeared together. At the same time that many priests and religious persons move away from the celibate life, we see many couples questioning the value of their commitment to each other. These two phenomena, although they are not connected with each other as cause and effect, are closely related because marriage and celibacy are two ways of living within the Christian community that support each other. Celibacy is a support to married people in their commitment to each other. The celibate reminds those who live together in marriage of their own celibate center, which they need to protect and nurture in order to live a life that does not depend simply upon the stability of emotions and affections, but also on their common love for God, who called them together.​

On the other hand, married people also witness to those who have chosen the celibate life, reminding them that it is the love of God that indeed makes rich and creative human relationships possible and that the value of the celibate life becomes manifest in a generous, affectionate, and faithful care for those in need. Married people remind celibates that celibates also live in covenant and are brides and grooms. Thus celibacy and marriage need each other.​

Celibates can indeed have a very good understanding of married life and married people of celibate life. Remarks such as: "You don't know what you are talking about because you are not married (or celibate)" can be very misleading. Precisely because marriage and celibacy are in each other's service and bound together by their common witness to God's love as the love from which all human relationships originate, celibate and married people can be of invaluable help to each other by supporting their different life-styles.​

Celibacy not only witnesses to the inner sanctum to married people, but also, together with marriage, celibacy speaks of the presence of God in the world to anyone who is there to listen. In a world so congested and so entangled in conflict and pain, celibates by their dedication to God in a single life-style, and married people by their dedication to God in a life together, are signs of God's presence in this world. They both ask us in different ways to turn to God as the source of all human relationships. They both say in different ways that without giving God his rightful place in the midst of the city, we all die in the hopeless attempt to fabricate peace and love by ourselves.​

The celibate speaks of the need to respect the inner sanctum at all cost; the married Christian speaks of the need to base human relationships on the intimacy with God himself. But both speak for God and his Lordship in the world, and together they give form to the Christian community and stand out as signs of hope.​

Thus, in a world torn by loneliness and conflict and trying so hard to create better human relationships, celibacy is a very important witness. It encourages us to create space for him who sent his son, thus revealing to us that we can only love each other because he has loved us first.​

Clowning in Rome, by Henri Nouwen​

 

[Rex]

You act as if you own Jesus with your ranting and raving. You have turned Him into an idol of your own making. Being your own pope in a church of one is no excuse to war against everyone else.

Why kepha you just provided a perfect description of the RCC.

Act as though you own Jesus...............check,,,,, extra Ecclesiam nulla salus ........means: "outside the church there is no salvation
Idol making.........................check your nearest RCC for our latest plaster idols and accessories.,,,,,,Mother of God
Make your own pope.................that's a big check,............. I see your comes with an official infallibility statement as well.

Below I posted your description of the RCC official telephone to god, the only one in the world BTW.
The Levitical priest hood thought the same thing, until the Prophets under the direction of the Holy Spirit proved other wise.

1) The charism of infallibly is a "negative charism". The word, "charism" means gift from God. Calling this a "negative charism" means that when the gift is invoked, the statement made by the Pope is WITHOUT error. It does not mean that the infallible truth is the whole truth or that the infallible teaching cannot be further developed and explored. It simply means that whatever was defined was free of theological error. For example, if I had the power of infallibility, and I say infallibly that "the earth orbits the sun", we can continue to ask questions such as "How many days does it take?" or "Does this imply the sun is the center of the universe."

It's implied in scripture. The term is not there. It makes perfect sense. Infallibility is a negative charism.

You really enjoy using your master loop hole don't you. "its not in scripture" sooooo We have an infallible telephone called the pope, we crank his arm and ask the holy spirit to put us threw to god. LOL

Mixing inspired scripture with the seed of men sounds a bit like mixing iron and clay, what say you?
Danial 2

 

[mjrhealth]

Jesus is the the truth, in Him there is nol lie, It is He who gives us the Spirit of Truth, but how can one have the truth if one denies the Spirit of Truth,

Joh_14:17 the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you.

Joh_16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He hears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come

There are many who deny the Spirit of truth, to deny Him is to deny the one that sent Him, many are fooloist to believe that only the disciples received the Spirit of truth and in so doing deny the Truth and are kept in bondage.

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

In All His Most Abundant Love

 

[jiggyfly]

And many people in the Bible were murders and adulterers - Jesus uses the weak - He is sort of known for that.......

Absolutely, yet they don't go around claiming to be the only true witnesses of Christ. I hate religion because it is always twisting the truth in an attempt to line up with it. Religion really has a terrible trail of slime it leaves behind and those who claim elitism are the worse. The ludicrous thing is that their history is all documented and yet ignored.

There is a huge difference between what Christ is building and man's cheap knock-off.

 

[epostle1]

"...The light of God's face shines in all its beauty on the countenance of Jesus Christ, "the image of the invisible God" (Col 1:15), the "reflection of God's glory" (Heb 1:3), "full of grace and truth" (John 1:14). Christ is "the way, and the truth, and the life" (John 14:6). Consequently the decisive answer to every one of man's questions, his religious and moral questions in particular, is given by Jesus Christ, or rather is Jesus Christ himself, as the Second Vatican Council recalls: "In fact, it is only in the mystery of the Word incarnate that light is shed on the mystery of man. For Adam, the first man, was a figure of the future man, namely, of Christ the Lord. It is Christ, the last Adam, who fully discloses man to himself and unfolds his noble calling by revealing the mystery of the Father and the Father's love".

...85. The discernment which the Church carries out with regard to these ethical theories is not simply limited to denouncing and refuting them. In a positive way, the Church seeks, with great love, to help all the faithful to form a moral conscience which will make judgments and lead to decisions in accordance with the truth, following the exhortation of the Apostle Paul: "Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect" (Rom 12:2). This effort by the Church finds its support — the "secret" of its educative power — not so much in doctrinal statements and pastoral appeals to vigilance, as in constantly looking to the Lord Jesus...

Jesus Christ, the "light of the nations", shines upon the face of his Church, which he sends forth to the whole world to proclaim the Gospel to every creature (cf. Mk 16:15). Hence the Church, as the People of God among the nations while attentive to the new challenges of history and to mankind's efforts to discover the meaning of life, offers to everyone the answer which comes from the truth about Jesus Christ and his Gospel. The Church remains deeply conscious of her "duty in every age of examining the signs of the times and interpreting them in the light of the Gospel, so that she can offer in a manner appropriate to each generation replies to the continual human questionings on the meaning of this life and the life to come and on how they are related"[sup].[/sup]

VERITATIS SPLENDOR

Absolutely, yet they don't go around claiming to be the only true witnesses of Christ. I hate religion because it is always twisting the truth in an attempt to line up with it. Religion really has a terrible trail of slime it leaves behind and those who claim elitism are the worse. The ludicrous thing is that their history is all documented and yet ignored.

There is a huge difference between what Christ is building and man's cheap knock-off.

Fr. Barron comments on "Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLta2b9zQ64&feature=related