The Collusion of the American Left and World Evil

[aspen]

I agree that other religions are not sufficient for salvation, but I do not believe they are toxic or worthless. Of course, we all need Christ, but I think it is arrogant to reject outright, the truth found in other religions. I think the same problem is found in a conservative Christian response towards science.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

I agree that other religions are not sufficient for salvation, but I do not believe they are toxic or worthless. Of course, we all need Christ, but I think it is arrogant to reject outright, the truth found in other religions. I think the same problem is found in a conservative Christian response towards science.

I never did say that other religions are toxic or worthless, but the discussion is about their corporal works. Consider when Pakistan and India broke away from each other. The agreement was reached because of differences between Hindus and Muslims, so they became two separate nations, one Hindu and the other Islamic. Immediately after becoming a nation, Pakistanis rounded up whatever Hindus remained in their country, slaughtered them, and sent their corpses by train back to India. I can go on and on like this citing ample examples to support my findings that Islam is a force of demonic evil on this planet even with the occasional pious Muslim who refuses to bring violence to others; a refusal that violates the Qu'ran BTW.

And bringing the discussion full circle, if Leftists in this country supported only peaceful Muslims, then fine. Conservatives do that too. But they seem to ally themselves with the most hideous acts of Islam, even most recently funneling funds through a mock NPO set up by Obama's brother to fund vicious terrorists in Kenya who are using the money to slaughter people. I can go night and day citing these examples that demonstrate incontrovertibly a collusion between the American Left and every source of moral and political evil all over the world.

 

[aspen]

I never did say that other religions are toxic or worthless, but the discussion is about their corporal works. Consider when Pakistan and India broke away from each other. The agreement was reached because of differences between Hindus and Muslims, so they became two separate nations, one Hindu and the other Islamic. Immediately after becoming a nation, Pakistanis rounded up whatever Hindus remained in their country, slaughtered them, and sent their corpses by train back to India. I can go on and on like this citing ample examples to support my findings that Islam is a force of demonic evil on this planet even with the occasional pious Muslim who refuses to bring violence to others; a refusal that violates the Qu'ran BTW.

And bringing the discussion full circle, if Leftists in this country supported only peaceful Muslims, then fine. Conservatives do that too. But they seem to ally themselves with the most hideous acts of Islam, even most recently funneling funds through a mock NPO set up by Obama's brother to fund vicious terrorists in Kenya who are using the money to slaughter people. I can go night and day citing these examples that demonstrate incontrovertibly a collusion between the American Left and every source of moral and political evil all over the world.

Ok, first let's agree that when I make a statement, it is just my own idea - I am not trying to re-frame what you are saying or put words in your mouth.

I think you are generalizing liberal people. No one likes terrorism - the left simply acknowledges that all groups are capable of murder and committing acts of terrorism. Manifest Destiny was the American version of genocide, for example. Being Catholic you know our history of the Crusades - I do not believe Protestant or Muslim atrocities excuse Catholics from the violence they committed.

Once again, I think many people on the right believe that people on the left are excusing or dismissing evil, when in fact, they are usually claiming that all people are capable of evil.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Ok, first let's agree that when I make a statement, it is just my own idea - I am not trying to re-frame what you are saying or put words in your mouth.

Ok.


I think you are generalizing liberal people.

I think we're not talking along the same wavelength. There's nothing liberal about these people so I don't call them liberal. And when I refer to the American Left I certainly am not talking about everyone who votes Democrat any more than my assessments of Islam as a world wide political and religious force includes every individual Muslim. You say that I'm generalizing which would be true if I weren't including specific examples that make my point.



No one likes terrorism - the left simply acknowledges that all groups are capable of murder and committing acts of terrorism.

The lie the Left tells is that white Christians are just as capable of terrorism as Muslims and they make equal what is unequal. The truth is, terrorism finds nearly no fertile support in Christian soils whereas Muslim terrorism enjoys wide support. Poll after poll of Muslims in Muslim country show a majority favoring such tactics as suicide bombings, the implementation of Sh'ria law, and other components of jihad. We all know about Timothy McVeigh, but for every one of him, there's 50 or more jihadists wanting to blow buildings up in the name of religion and do so regularly in developing countries less equipped to stop them.




Manifest Destiny was the American version of genocide, for example.

You'll find out quickly that even though I am American Indian, I don't go along with the noble-Indian-evil-whiteman stereotype. I'm well aware of what happened to my people, particularly the plains tribes, and I'm well aware of what preceded it, which was Indians killing each other for land and not progressing as a civilization because our highest priority was making war on our nearest neighbors. The charge of genocide seems to be applied to white settlers at the expense of the fact that there have been tribes that have no representative survivors today because they were wiped out by other tribes decades or even centuries before Manifest Destiny, and the tribes you see today are often alive today because they were the most vicious agents of genocide. Yes, I am Catholic, yes I am a Native, but I'm also an excellent student of history.



Being Catholic you know our history of the Crusades - I do not believe Protestant or Muslim atrocities excuse Catholics from the violence they committed.

I can't excuse all the motives that came into play during the Crusades, but I can say that the Crusades are responsible for breaking the back of Islamic expansionism and is the reason that Western Civilization continues to this day. Call it God bringing about his greater purposes using even the evil acts of men.


Once again, I think many people on the right believe that people on the left are excusing or dismissing evil, when in fact, they are usually claiming that all people are capable of evil.

I do enjoy hashing this out and if this is the first of many discussions I'll have with you, I eagerly await that good fortune. One thing you'll find very quickly is that I rise quickly to challenge the most perfunctory axioms in today's culture such as Islam serving the same God as Christians and white Christian terrorists being just as prolific in religious war as Islamists. The OP gave several examples of the Left excusing, dismissing, and even accommodating and collaborating with global evil. I'd be glad to discuss with you any contentions you have with the examples I cited in the OP and follow up postings, but so far you've offered protests that do nothing to undo those examples or the conclusion they lead to.

 

[Selene]

It's an important point that while the religion of Islam is clearly evil, individual Muslims are not so necessarily. I was hungry one time and with no means to feed myself and a Muslim shared his food with me. He did so because that's what his faith instructs him to do. I believe that even short of the full revelation of God in Jesus Christ, some Muslims are groping their way to find God and the goodness in their lives betrays an ongoing, yet unwitting, relationship with God. It's not good and pious Muslims that my OP was directed at.

But consider how Islam started under the leadership of Muhammad. At first he tried to befriend the Jews, but later became angry with them and with Christians. He attacked Medina, heavily populated with Jews. He slaughtered the men and women and enslaved the girls. He caused the Jewish boys to line up and undress and then systematically slew those that showed signs of puberty and impressed the younger boys into his religion. His life was a reign of terror until it was cut short when he was poisoned by one of his wives.

Fast forward to the Moorish occupation of Spain and Southern Europe, the Byzantine Empire and the sacking of Constantinople. A desperate war was waged to hold them at the gates of Vienna in sight of Vatican City. They were eventually pushed back, but at the cost of millions of lives. The Crusades which came later served many purposes, but one of which was to ensure that Muslim Expansionism would never again threaten Christianity and Western Civilization. Were it not for the Christian armies that marched and fought, we would be having a very different conversation because the Church would have been crushed and any Christians would live their lives in fear and persecution.

It's important not to forget what Islam is, especially when they grow in numbers and influence and achieve power. From a religious point of view, Islam can only be an evil deception by Satan because it completely confounds the New Covenant and the era of grace by which man can freely come to God through the Lord Jesus Christ. This is why it's absurd bordering on outrageous to suggest that they serve the same God as us.

It's much easier to blame a religion......the atheists do it all the time. Christopher Hitchens even pointed out how violent Christianity is when Christians went out and conquered other lands. In his book God is Not Great, he criticized all religions and branded them all violent. And somehow he left out atheists regimes like Mao and Stalin who killed by the millions. Religion is never the problem. The problem is always in the hearts of men, and religion is often used as an excuse.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

It's much easier to blame a religion......the atheists do it all the time. Christopher Hitchens even pointed out how violent Christianity is when Christians went out and conquered other lands. In his book God is Not Great, he criticized all religions and branded them all violent. And somehow he left out atheists regimes like Mao and Stalin who killed by the millions. Religion is never the problem. The problem is always in the hearts of men, and religion is often used as an excuse.

Which is why I don't think of Islam as just a religion because it isn't. It's a socio-economic system of government, a culture, as well as a religion. The religion part of Islam is perhaps its only redeeming quality. But you bring a very good point that it's a lack of belief in God that has killed more people than all the religious wars combined. We are talking about 120 million people killed in the 20th century alone by atheists. Nothing that has occurred in the history of mankind can equal that and it was a war against religion.

But there is nobody else to blame except for Islam when taken as much more than just a religion but rather a system of total denomination that accepts nothing short of complete submission. And we don't even need to compare histories for me to make my point. From daughters being buried alive for being too western, to muslim militias committing genocide in Africa, to 2000 year old Buddhist statues being destroyed by Muslims. Then you factor in the hatred toward Israel, lobbing scud missiles, suicide bombings, and the kidnapping if Israeli soldiers. Things that we consider a rarity in Christian nations are quotidian in nations dominated by Islam.

 

[Selene]

Which is why I don't think of Islam as just a religion because it isn't. It's a socio-economic system of government, a culture, as well as a religion. The religion part of Islam is perhaps its only redeeming quality. But you bring a very good point that it's a lack of belief in God that has killed more people than all the religious wars combined. We are talking about 120 million people killed in the 20th century alone by atheists. Nothing that has occurred in the history of mankind can equal that and it was a war against religion.

But there is nobody else to blame except for Islam when taken as much more than just a religion but rather a system of total denomination that accepts nothing short of complete submission. And we don't even need to compare histories for me to make my point. From daughters being buried alive for being too western, to muslim militias committing genocide in Africa, to 2000 year old Buddhist statues being destroyed by Muslims. Then you factor in the hatred toward Israel, lobbing scud missiles, suicide bombings, and the kidnapping if Israeli soldiers. Things that we consider a rarity in Christian nations are quotidian in nations dominated by Islam.

The problem that I see in Islamic world is not their religion. They're still living like their ancestors did thousands of years ago with the same rules while the rest of the world moved on. They're behind in technology and education. The illiteracy rate in those countries are very high especially among women, and I would blame their dictators on this. When you have dictators, it's much easier to control and brainwash the populace by keeping them illiterate and in poverty. From what I see in the news, the populace are beginning to rebel. Uprising have occurred against rulers who have remained dictators for more than 30 years. Perhaps, this is a start for change.

The Muslims in America and on my island are not interested in domination. So, perhaps the Islamic world in the Middle East would be better off being exposed to democracy and change. However, there will always be a few of them opposed to change.

 

[Rex]

Which is why I don't think of Islam as just a religion because it isn't. It's a socio-economic system of government, a culture, as well as a religion. The religion part of Islam is perhaps its only redeeming quality. But you bring a very good point that it's a lack of belief in God that has killed more people than all the religious wars combined. We are talking about 120 million people killed in the 20th century alone by atheists. Nothing that has occurred in the history of mankind can equal that and it was a war against religion.

But there is nobody else to blame except for Islam when taken as much more than just a religion but rather a system of total denomination that accepts nothing short of complete submission. And we don't even need to compare histories for me to make my point. From daughters being buried alive for being too western, to muslim militias committing genocide in Africa, to 2000 year old Buddhist statues being destroyed by Muslims. Then you factor in the hatred toward Israel, lobbing scud missiles, suicide bombings, and the kidnapping if Israeli soldiers. Things that we consider a rarity in Christian nations are quotidian in nations dominated by Islam.

The problem that I see in Islamic world is not their religion. They're still living like their ancestors did thousands of years ago with the same rules while the rest of the world moved on. They're behind in technology and education. The illiteracy rate in those countries are very high especially among women, and I would blame their dictators on this. When you have dictators, it's much easier to control and brainwash the populace by keeping them illiterate and in poverty. From what I see in the news, the populace are beginning to rebel. Uprising have occurred against rulers who have remained dictators for more than 30 years. Perhaps, this is a start for change.

I can't help but comment because both of these critical observations are true but it amuses me to think that it can also be applied to the RCC.
It operated in the same manner until the late 1790's when Napoleon was waring in Europe. It wasn't until the early 1900 that the RCC began to partly regain its former influence over both peoples "brain washing" and nations again.

I think one of you has already mentioned the violent history your church played in history, it would seem that the RCC was nothing but a model for the Muslims of today. But you say the RCC has moved on, has it? Or does it still consider itself the only true church of god? same as the Muslims?

 

[Selene]

I can't help but comment because both of these critical observations are true but it amuses me to think that it can also be applied to the RCC.
It operated in the same manner until the late 1790's when Napoleon was waring in Europe. It wasn't until the early 1900 that the RCC began to partly regain its former influence over both peoples "brain washing" and nations again.

I think one of you has already mentioned the violent history your church played in history, it would seem that the RCC was nothing but a model for the Muslims of today. But you say the RCC has moved on, has it? Or does it still consider itself the only true church of god? same as the Muslims?

Your hatred for the RCC has always been showing, Rex. We know our history and the Pope has already made an apology for it. After all, no one is perfect. It appears that even the Pope's apology is not enough for you.....so what else do you want from us?? At least we recognize that we are sinners. Do you recognize that YOU are also a sinner or is your church already so perfect and without sin??

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

It seems to me the thrust of this thread is a "social gospel' push. Or in the another mans words the 'New Evangelism'. I don't think Christians ought to be caught up in all this gossip and speculation. They have enough to be concerned about without derailing their faith.

The faithful don't desire or seek out affinity to faiths that are opposed to the LORD JESUS CHRIST. Personally, I detest ecumenicalism. I understand it's a mandate to get the right hand of fellowship with those whom you can't win over in toto(mind). But in all reality the Elect knows the RCC's agenda and will not fall for it. :mellow:

 

[Rex]

Hate is not pointing out facts Selene

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18571-dispensationalism/#entry202289

 

[Selene]

Hate is not pointing out facts Selene

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18571-dispensationalism/#entry202289

What facts?? ALL Christians believe that Christianity is the source of salvation. In fact, even YOU should believe that Christianity is the source of salvation. Surely, you don't believe that Buddhism will lead you to salvation?? So, what exactly are you trying to say....that Catholicism is the only one who believes that Christianity is the source of salvation while YOU say differently??

How easy it is for you to see the evils of Roman Catholicism and Islam, but you forget that in your own country, millions of children are being murdered every year through abortion. Would you say Christianity has murdered millions of children every year?? In Islamic countries abortion is illegal, but in America (where the majority of people are Protestant Christians), abortion is legal and millions of children are being murdered in America every year. As I said before, religion is not the problem. It is always man that is the problem.

It seems to me the thrust of this thread is a "social gospel' push. Or in the another mans words the 'New Evangelism'. I don't think Christians ought to be caught up in all this gossip and speculation. They have enough to be concerned about without derailing their faith.

The faithful don't desire or seek out affinity to faiths that are opposed to the LORD JESUS CHRIST. Personally, I detest ecumenicalism. I understand it's a mandate to get the right hand of fellowship with those whom you can't win over in toto(mind). But in all reality the Elect knows the RCC's agenda and will not fall for it. :mellow:

It is actually through ecumenicalism that ALL Christians (regardless of what denomination) together with other non-Christian religions need to stand together against abortion and other social injustices that are occuring in our country. This is where ecumenicalism becomes beneficial. The Jews, Mormons and Muslims are also against abortion. And if all stand together against abortion, we could most likely have an impact on changing the abortion laws. This is what the Roman Catholic Church teach about ecumencialism. Catholics actually believe in Freedom of religion. Freedom of religion is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If a person prefers to be a Mormon, that is his/her choice, and we will not force that person to change their religion. After all, Christ never forced anyone to follow Him, and He was able to get along with non-Jews. This is why the Romans and Samaritans (who were not Jewish) were able to come to Him.

 

[aspen]

Rex, the fact is that you separate yourself from all Christianity that you don't like and latch on to all that you agree with. You are blind to the fact that the only reason you believe in the Trinity, have the privilege to hold the Bible as your final authority, and know that Jesus is fully man and fully God is because of your RCC heritage. Grow up and read some history.

The ironic part is that you justify all the genocide and nationalism from your Jewish roots, but disavow the bloodshed of your Catholic roots - I can only stand by and watch your ignorance for soon long - please wake up.

Vale,

I guess I do not know who or even the name you are assigning to this mystery group in America that defends terrorism. You are going to have to be more clear - it is starting to sound like you are blaming it on 'them'.

I still do not see a difference between Islam and the OT Israelites or Christianity, 500 years ago.

I think you pointed out the core of the problem in your post, Vale. Violence in Islam is found in countries where religion and government are not separate - the same is true within Christianity before separation of church and state.

 

[Rex]

You both know we and others like myself have been down this road before.

The truth is you both believe you have the true salvation because you're a member of the RCC
Your post echo this many times over, like aspens appeal to wake up to the fact that the RCC is Gods only church.

Rex, the fact is that you separate yourself from all Christianity that you don't like and latch on to all that you agree with. You are blind to the fact that the only reason you believe in the Trinity, have the privilege to hold the Bible as your final authority, and know that Jesus is fully man and fully God is because of your RCC heritage. Grow up and read some history.

The ironic part is that you justify all the genocide and nationalism from your Jewish roots, but disavow the bloodshed of your Catholic roots - I can only stand by a watch you ignorance for soon long - please wake up.

I particularly like the part where you equate the RCC with the Jews of the OT. Like I said the catholic church believes itself to be the only legitimate church and region on earth the Muslims believe the same thing, It's not that you profess to be a christian, it's that you think yourself better than others. I do believe I made that point, If not I just did.

 

[Selene]

You both know we and others like myself have been down this road before.

The truth is you both believe you have the true salvation because you're a member of the RCC
Your post echo this many times over, like aspens appeal to wake up to the fact that the RCC is Gods only church.


I particularly like the part where you equate the RCC with the Jews of the OT. Like I said the catholic church believes itself to be the only legitimate church and region on earth the Muslims believe the same thing, It's not that you profess to be a christian, it's that you think yourself better than others. I do believe I made that point, If not I just did.

Can you point where in the Bible that Christ built more than one Church?? We believe that Christ only build one Church, and the Catholic Church is the OLDEST Christian Church. If you had actually read our Catechism, it states that all "Christians" who are not in communion with the Pope are together with the RCC as one body of Christ. So even though your church is NOT the oldest and was formed only in the 16th century, your christian church is part of us. In fact, some of us even call you a "secondary catholic." Nevermind the fact that you most likely don't want to be called a "catholic", but you belong to the universal Church because of your belief in Jesus Christ.


CCC 838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324

Taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

It is actually through ecumenicalism that ALL Christians (regardless of what denomination) together with other non-Christian religions need to stand together against abortion and other social injustices that are occuring in our country. This is where ecumenicalism becomes beneficial. :unsure: The Jews, Mormons and Muslims are also against abortion. And if all stand together against abortion, we could most likely have an impact on changing the abortion laws. This is what the Roman Catholic Church teach about ecumencialism. ​Maybe it's their social agenda but I don't believe for one moment it's their religious agenda. Absolute control is. Catholics actually believe in Freedom of religion. Freedom of religion is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. So what! If a person prefers to be a Mormon, that is his/her choice, and we will not force that person to change their religion. Now who's head is in the sand. B) After all, Christ never forced anyone to follow Him, and He was able to get along with non-Jews. Correct in point of fact about Christ, but your inference that the RCC is like that is just plain ignorance or wilful blindness. This is why the Romans and Samaritans (who were not Jewish) were able to come to Him.

How does it feeeel to be so liberal.

 

[Rex]

I particularly like the part where you equate the RCC with the Jews of the OT. Like I said the catholic church believes itself to be the only legitimate church and region on earth the Muslims believe the same thing, It's not that you profess to be a christian, it's that you think yourself better than others. I do believe I made that point, If not I just did.

more here http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18571-dispensationalism/#entry202289

Thank you both for affirming what I said is true

Can you point where in the Bible that Christ built more than one Church?? We believe that Christ only build one Church, and the Catholic Church is the OLDEST Christian Church. If you had actually read our Catechism, it states that all "Christians" who are not in communion with the Pope are together with the RCC as one body of Christ. So even though your church is NOT the oldest and was formed only in the 16th century, your christian church is part of us. In fact, some of us even call you a "secondary catholic." Nevermind the fact that you most likely don't want to be called a "catholic", but you belong to the universal Church because of your belief in Jesus Christ.

 

[Selene]

more here http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18571-dispensationalism/#entry202289

Thank you both for affirming what I said is true

Rex, by saying that we are the Church that Christ built and that the Catholic Church can bring salvation because her Head is Jesus Christ Himself from which flows all salvation is not saying that we are better than anyone else. What we are saying is the truth. When Christ told the Jews that He is God, He is not saying that He is better than the Jews or anyone else. Christ is simply stating a fact. He is stating the truth. We are a Church who believes that Christ is our Head, and we believe that the Head of our Church brings salvation. And because Jesus Christ is the Head of our Church, then it is in our Church where you will find salvation because look at who is the Head. This is not saying that we are better than anyone else. We are stating a fact. I am surprise that your church does not preach that.

 

[Rex]

And a special thanks to Selene, please see Spiritual lesson 1&2 on the previous page.

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18569-the-collusion-of-the-american-left-and-world-evil/#entry202158
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18569-the-collusion-of-the-american-left-and-world-evil/#entry202174

 

[aspen]

You both know we and others like myself have been down this road before.

The truth is you both believe you have the true salvation because you're a member of the RCC
Your post echo this many times over, like aspens appeal to wake up to the fact that the RCC is Gods only church.



I particularly like the part where you equate the RCC with the Jews of the OT. Like I said the catholic church believes itself to be the only legitimate church and region on earth the Muslims believe the same thing, It's not that you profess to be a christian, it's that you think yourself better than others. I do believe I made that point, If not I just did.

Really? So if I acknowledged the United States' British heritage, does that mean that I am claiming that Britain is the only country between the two countries that can claim to be an actual sovereign nation?

Not to mention your leap in logic when you claim that I am comparing the Catholic Church with the Jewish OT. Really?
So if I traced your heritage back to your parents and grandparents - am I comparing your parents to your grandparents? You may want to take a logic class along with your church history.....