The Collusion of the American Left and World Evil

[Selene]

And a special thanks to Selene, please see Spiritual lesson 1&2 on the previous page.

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18569-the-collusion-of-the-american-left-and-world-evil/#entry202158
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18569-the-collusion-of-the-american-left-and-world-evil/#entry202174

Rex, you can go ahead and preach that YOUR church doesn't bring salvation, if that is what you want. We, on the other hand, do preach that our Church can bring salvation simply because the Head of our Church is Christ from which salvation comes from. And this is not being arrogant. This is the truth.

It is actually through ecumenicalism that ALL Christians (regardless of what denomination) together with other non-Christian religions need to stand together against abortion and other social injustices that are occuring in our country. This is where ecumenicalism becomes beneficial. :unsure: The Jews, Mormons and Muslims are also against abortion. And if all stand together against abortion, we could most likely have an impact on changing the abortion laws. This is what the Roman Catholic Church teach about ecumencialism. ​Maybe it's their social agenda but I don't believe for one moment it's their religious agenda. Absolute control is. Catholics actually believe in Freedom of religion. Freedom of religion is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. So what! If a person prefers to be a Mormon, that is his/her choice, and we will not force that person to change their religion. Now who's head is in the sand. B) After all, Christ never forced anyone to follow Him, and He was able to get along with non-Jews. Correct in point of fact about Christ, but your inference that the RCC is like that is just plain ignorance or wilful blindness. This is why the Romans and Samaritans (who were not Jewish) were able to come to Him.

How does it feeeel to be so liberal.

If it is truly our religious agenda to gain control and force others to convert to Catholicsm, then why is it that you don't see us going door to door like the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons? When was the last time you had a Catholic knock on your door preaching the gospel like the Jehovah Witnesses? Freedom of Religion is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If a person prefers to be a Mormon or Muslim, we will not force them to change their religion. We will accept their choice.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

The problem that I see in Islamic world is not their religion. They're still living like their ancestors did thousands of years ago with the same rules while the rest of the world moved on. They're behind in technology and education. The illiteracy rate in those countries are very high especially among women, and I would blame their dictators on this. When you have dictators, it's much easier to control and brainwash the populace by keeping them illiterate and in poverty. From what I see in the news, the populace are beginning to rebel. Uprising have occurred against rulers who have remained dictators for more than 30 years. Perhaps, this is a start for change.

The Muslims in America and on my island are not interested in domination. So, perhaps the Islamic world in the Middle East would be better off being exposed to democracy and change. However, there will always be a few of them opposed to change.

I would say that your focusing on the wrong individuals if you think the dictators are the cause of this. The Islamic culture is itself violent and oppressive and the dictator is the cherry on top. The most fearsome enforcer of religious law isn't some dictator far away in Tehran or Tripoli, it's the local sharif and the local mosque. Did you not understand when I said polls show strong majorities support the implementation of Sh'ria? And this bears out especially in the uprisings that you think support your argument but in fact contradict it. More strict, Islamic regimes are replacing more moderate regimes in Egypt, Syria, and Libya and they do so with strong popular support. Islamism isn't being imposed on people from the top down, the people themselves support the rule of religious law.

This is a key problem with Americans is a confusion on a fundamental level about what Muslims believe and how Islam is practiced in the Muslim dominated world. You're not going to understand Islam through your neighbors on the island.

 

[Selene]

I would say that your focusing on the wrong individuals if you think the dictators are the cause of this. The Islamic culture is itself violent and oppressive and the dictator is the cherry on top. The most fearsome enforcer of religious law isn't some dictator far away in Tehran or Tripoli, it's the local sheriff and the local mosque. Did you not understand when I said polls show strong majorities support the implementation of Sh'ria? And this bears out especially in the uprisings that you think support your argument but in fact contradict it. More strict, Islamic regimes are replacing more moderate regimes in Egypt, Syria, and Libya and they do so with strong popular support. Islamism isn't being imposed on people from the top down, the people themselves support the rule of religious law.

This is a key problem with Americans is a confusion on a fundamental level about what Muslims believe and how Islam is practiced in the Muslim dominated world. You're not going to understand Islam through your neighbors on the island.

Vale, we are no better than the Muslims. As I pointed out to Rex, we are a country who murder millions of little children every year through abortion. The problem has always been in the hearts of men rather than religion. As Mother Teresa said in her speech in the United States, what good is a nation who says that we shouldn't kill each other, but they tell a mother that she can kill her child.

 

[Rex]

Really? So if I acknowledged the United States' British heritage, does that mean that I am claiming that Britain is the only country between the two countries that can claim to be an actual sovereign nation?

Not to mention your leap in logic when you claim that I am comparing the Catholic Church with the Jewish OT. Really?
So if I traced your heritage back to your parents and grandparents - am I comparing your parents to your grandparents? You may want to take a logic class along with your church history.....

You didn't learn anything from Spiritual lesson 1 did you aspen, in the least I would have thought you to understand you can not possibly win the battle.
And the tactic I described yesterday is just below here, the very same thing TVOT tried to pull. Get your opponent to drop the sword with the "point" ..................two meanings in "point" LOL

This is the only exception

Notice above what TVOT resorts to when I don't address his questions, that would have changed the subject, taking my subject point away, which was him and what he said, This disarms or removes Spirit that initiated my confronting him in the beginning. By falling for such tricks you effectively allow the sword of the Spirit to be dropped, instead I responded with

You see aspen I came in with a sword tipped with the "point" that the RCC thinks itself better than everyone including Christians of other faiths.
You and Selene have been so good as to confirmed that "point" I did not come to debate how you came to believe such a thing. That is changing the "point" now that you have attempted to steer away from my "point" it's time to stand down.

But I will leave you something to read Matthew 20/20 I hope you have 20/20 vision aspen otherwise I'm afraid you're going to miss the "point" again. Matthew 20:20-28

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Vale,

I guess I do not know who or even the name you are assigning to this mystery group in America that defends terrorism. You are going to have to be more clear - it is starting to sound like you are blaming it on 'them'.


I could name names starting with our president Barack Obama, but I think you know who I'm referring to. I'm not a conspiracy theorist and I don't believe in shadow governments. The people that are doing this are very visible and well known. When I'm talking about the American Left, I'm talking about an ideology that supports, defends, or at least turns a blind eye to world evil. I gave several examples about how the Left helps evil around the world, including the ban on DDT and defending the communist USSR when Reagan stood against it. You continue to act as if I haven't demonstrated my point while ignoring the specific examples I've given.

I still do not see a difference between Islam and the OT Israelites or Christianity, 500 years ago.

Because you're sidetracking. This thread isn't about what happened 500 years ago, it's about what's happening today. And this thread isn't about religion, it's about global evil. And this thread doesn't focus on just Islam, but all forms of evil and oppression. You're trying to refute my arguments with rash generalizations about historical events when I'm talking about very near and present evil that plays out daily. We're not even having the same conversation.


I think you pointed out the core of the problem in your post, Vale. Violence in Islam is found in countries where religion and government are not separate - the same is true within Christianity before separation of church and state.

Violence is found in Islam even in countries where there is no government, like Somolia. Islamic violence is found right here in America where our government doesn't endorse religion, such as the Ft. Hood shootings, the attempted bombing of Times Square, the bombing of the WTC in 1993, and most recently the Boston Marathon bombings. Wherever there are Muslims, terrorism will follow, not because every Muslim is a terrorist, but because some Muslims choose to read the Qu'ran with accurate exegesis.

 

[aspen]

Oh now I get it! Your point is that Catholics teach and believe we are the only Christian church! Despite the fact that your point has nothing to do with logic or testimony from Catholics on this board or even the subject of this thread - to speak of anything other than Rex's point is to distract from the only relevant idea being discussed.

What an ego - don't let reality hit you on the way out, Rex

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Vale, we are no better than the Muslims. As I pointed out to Rex, we are a country who murder millions of little children every year through abortion. The problem has always been in the hearts of men rather than religion. As Mother Teresa said in her speech in the United States, what good is a nation who says that we shouldn't kill each other, but they tell a mother that she can kill her child.

Selene, I keep conversing with people who clearly haven't even read the OP. The whole point is that we have a political and cultural force in this country that serves the same god that runs drugs from South America, and wipes out African villages with warlords and militias, and imprisons Christians and other dissidents in North Korea. It is the American Left that promotes abortion on demand, not America itself, and they do so in a demonstrable collusion with all other forms of global evil. It's clear that Satan hates children which is why he had his servants right here in America ban DDT so that millions of children (more than we abort, you should know) would die of a very preventable disease. The holocaust of innocent children is happening all over the world and is perpetuated by the devil's servants all over the world.

Oh now I get it! Your point is that Catholics teach and believe we are the only Christian church! Despite the fact that your point has nothing to do with logic or testimony from Catholics on this board or even the subject of this thread - to speak of anything other than Rex's point is to distract from the only relevant idea being discussed.

What an ego - don't let reality hit you on the way out, Rex

He's trying to get my thread locked down with the perception that it has devolved into an interdenominational fight because he believes that I had one of his threads locked down. This is nothing more than vengeful spite and I hope that my fellow Catholics don't go along with it.

 

[aspen]

Vale,
I guess I do not know who or even the name you are assigning to this mystery group in America that defends terrorism. You are going to have to be more clear - it is starting to sound like you are blaming it on 'them'.


I could name names starting with our president Barack Obama, but I think you know who I'm referring to. I'm not a conspiracy theorist and I don't believe in shadow governments. The people that are doing this are very visible and well known. When I'm talking about the American Left, I'm talking about an ideology that supports, defends, or at least turns a blind eye to world evil. I gave several examples about how the Left helps evil around the world, including the ban on DDT and defending the communist USSR when Reagan stood against it. You continue to act as if I haven't demonstrated my point while ignoring the specific examples I've given.

I still do not see a difference between Islam and the OT Israelites or Christianity, 500 years ago.

Because you're sidetracking. This thread isn't about what happened 500 years ago, it's about what's happening today. And this thread isn't about religion, it's about global evil. And this thread doesn't focus on just Islam, but all forms of evil and oppression. You're trying to refute my arguments with rash generalizations about historical events when I'm talking about very near and present evil that plays out daily. We're not even having the same conversation.

I think you pointed out the core of the problem in your post, Vale. Violence in Islam is found in countries where religion and government are not separate - the same is true within Christianity before separation of church and state.

Violence is found in Islam even in countries where there is no government, like Somolia. Islamic violence is found right here in America where our government doesn't endorse religion, such as the Ft. Hood shootings, the attempted bombing of Times Square, the bombing of the WTC in 1993, and most recently the Boston Marathon bombings. Wherever there are Muslims, terrorism will follow, not because every Muslim is a terrorist, but because some Muslims choose to read the Qu'ran with accurate exegesis.

I think you have forgotten the point I made at the beginning - I am speaking from my point of view - I am not trying to re-frame what you are saying or put words in your mouth. When I state that I do not understand for example, I mean just that - I am not trying to refute your argument - I am not even arguing. Instead, I am trying to get to the core of your idea.

Obama is currently following the ground rules of the executive office, which were set up by his predecessor and the congress. Do the laws give the President too much power? I think so, but it means that we the people need to reign the executive branch in rather than attribute the actions of the President to some evil force that is occupying the world.

Attributing the problems of the world to an evil force that likes terrorism and communism is not helpful. It externalizes evil, which places it out of our responsibility or ability to change it. It also ignores the evil tendencies of our own group and in our own tendencies.

Also, why did you attribute all of those terrorist events to Muslims? I thought they were all committed by American citizens (besides 911).

I am really trying to understand where you are coming from here.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Obama is currently following the ground rules of the executive office, which were set up by his predecessor and the congress. Do the laws give the President too much power? I think so, but it means that we the people need to reign the executive branch in rather than attribute the actions of the President to some evil force that is occupying the world.

I disagree that Obama is following the ground rules of his office. Certainly nothing allows him to gut welfare reform which was passed by Congress in 1996 or to place guns into the hands of dangerous Mexican cartels, or to spy on Americans or use the IRS against political opposition. But let's keep the focus on what I am trying to argue which is that the actions of Leftists here in America work in tandem with the evils going on throughout the world. And by Leftists, I'm not just talking about Democrats. Let's talk a little social justice. How much social justice was there when George Bush gave millions in subsidies to farms to raise corn for ethanol which raised food prices over the globe by turning food into a cash crop?....just so you don't think I'm talking about just Democrats


Attributing the problems of the world to an evil force that likes terrorism and communism is not helpful. It externalizes evil, which places it out of our responsibility or ability to change it. It also ignores the evil tendencies of our own group and in our own tendencies.

I think we can misplace responsibility and ignore our own flaws without any help. But to address your point, I would remind you that when Satan tempted Jesus, he told Jesus he owns all the kingdoms of the world, which is true. But the underlying and very important fact to draw from that is that evil is systemized both then and today. And if we are to fight evil, we need to understand the institutions used to perpetuate it. It's hard to see your point that ignoring these things somehow enables us to better address our own ignoble traits. Abortion on demand in America doesn't disqualify me as an American for condemning the sex slave trade on the Pacific Rim. The Crusades of the 12 century doesn't disqualify me from decrying the Islamic destruction of 2000 year old Buddhist statues. I'm not seeing the connection you're trying to draw.

Also, why did you attribute all of those terrorist events to Muslims? I thought they were all committed by American citizens (besides 911).

I was addressing your argument that the problem was in part the comingling of government and religion in countries where violence is prolific. Here in America where we don't have that problem, Muslims continue to do violence. The only concession I'll give is that even though polls show popular support for jihadd and Sh'ria in Muslim dominated countries, most American Muslims find it abhorant and came here to get away from all that.

I am really trying to understand where you are coming from here.

Then please, for the love of frozen yogurt, read the OP and quit bringing up irrelevant things like the Crusades. The entire OP was addressed to contemporary evil, but you're under the mistaken impression that because of the Inquisition, I've lost all moral authority to speak out against these things.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Rex, you can go ahead and preach that YOUR church doesn't bring salvation, if that is what you want. We, on the other hand, do preach that our Church can bring salvation simply because the Head of our Church is Christ from which salvation comes from. And this is not being arrogant. This is the truth.


If it is truly our religious agenda to gain control and force others to convert to Catholicsm, then why is it that you don't see us going door to door like the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons? When was the last time you had a Catholic knock on your door preaching the gospel like the Jehovah Witnesses? Freedom of Religion is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If a person prefers to be a Mormon or Muslim, we will not force them to change their religion. We will accept their choice.

It's not so much convert -although that might be easier- but control. They have long been in the system of things as early church so clearly indicates. The call is "come out of her MY PEOPLE" says the LORD.

 

[aspen]

Ok so here I am, addressing the OP for the love of frozen yogurt,

Why is it that the Left thinks that Christians who oppose homosexuality here in America are a bigger threat than Muslims who execute them every week?

It is frustrating for me to read this statement because it does not define 'Left'. It is an attempt to generalize the beliefs of a group of people who are left undefined. It assumes that because homosexual rights are being debated in the media and the courts in America that all 'Lefts' believe some Americans are a bigger threat than Muslims are towards homosexuals - not only do I not see evidence for such a statement - I see it as merely inflammatory or meant to get applause from the 'Rights' whoever they are.

Why is it perceived that women face more oppression by a Christian "male dominated society" than that of the Muslim world? We'll get back to that.

I have not found this to be true. However, I have encountered people who believe that Christians who believe 2,000 year old ideas about how men should treat women are just as oppressive as Muslims who believe in 1500 year old ideas of how to treat women and practice them today.

Christians understand that we are surrounded by a violent war in the spirit world that escapes our senses but is nonetheless very real and parallels the physical conflicts that everyone can see. We know that we contend with "principalities, powers, and spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenlies" who clash with God's mighty angels in the skies. But Jesus says something very important to understand about the demonic realm and evil in general. "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself and his kingdom cannot stand" (refer Matthew 12) There is no dissent among the ranks of the demonic realm, they all serve one lord and collaborate in a singular effort. They are united.

Your understanding of God vs. Satan is dualistic. Satan is a cautionary tale - he is a bad example - he is what we do not want to become. He is not a challenge for God - he is a created being who rejected God, nothing more. The war we are fighting is the tendency to follow in Satan's footsteps by giving into our selfish tendencies. I have no doubt that we will be tempted to worship ourselves daily (our American culture makes it's money off of this tendency and actively promotes it), but as far as fighting demons in the streets? You are confusing Christianity with Zoroasterism.

I won't mince words in saying that Islam is an evil religion. I categorically reject the popular notion that Islam serves the same God as the Christians and the Jews. I will further surmise that "allah" is a demon and the works of Islam bear out that belief, both historically and today. But lest you think I'm picking on Islam as a religion....

But the word Allah means God. So what are Christian Arabs supposed to call God? Paul would disagree with you - he did not approach the Athenians and tell them that they were worshiping Satan - he told them that they were actually worshiping the God of the universe when they worshipped the statue of Unknown God.

It also must be pointed out that the American Left is just as sympathetic to communists as they are to Muslims to the point they attempt to emulate communist ideals, particularly the redistribution of wealth, seizure of private property, and the eradication of personal liberty. It means nothing to them that the communists murdered 100 million people in the 20th century, has sustained and perpetuated poverty, misery, and oppression, and has imprisoned dissidents in the most horrid work camps. The American Left fought Ronald Reagan tooth and nail as he stood up to the "Evil Empire" and eventually brought it down. It should be said more specifically that the god that they served hated the God that Ronald Reagan served.

So you believe that Ronald Reagan was a devout Christian? Why are you defending the messiah of the Conservative party if you are also going to claim to be nonpartisan? I am a Democrat and I am not a communist. In fact, we live in a country that has deregulated the airlines, energy production, the post office, and is fighting to make sure that medical services never become regulated - how is this Fascist trend indicative of communism?

Those who are ignorant to the spiritual paradigm don't have the information needed to explain the cooperation that exists among all forms of global evil. But we are not ignorant. Consider:

Corporation? Communism? You seem to be mixing your Communism with your Facism.

1. American Leftists invented lies about DDT, a substance that saved millions of lives in South America and Africa, so that a world wide ban based on junk science ensured millions of needless deaths

Is it possible to be against pollution and not be a member of the Left? I am not a scientist so I cannot speak about the poisonous nature of DDT, but it seems to me that it is responsible for the death of multiple species of birds and fish. Do you believe that pollution is general is just an invention of the Left?

2. American Leftists have as a sacrament Abortion on Demand. They do so because they serve the same god that caused the Canaanites to throw their children into the fires of Molech, Herod to murder thousands of baby boys in an attempt to kill the infant Jesus, and Muslims to slaughter Jewish children at Mecca and Medina.

Is it possible to support the legalization of abortion and not be a member of the Left? I think the majority of people who are liberal believe that abortion should be legal, but reformed. As far as what the Left believes, I could not tell you.

3. American Leftists support gun control because they serve the same god as the Egyptians who disarmed the Hebrews so they could not resist enslavement.

Is it possible to support gun control and not be a Left? I support gun control because gun corporations are profiting on the death and destruction of American citizens and are arming the world. I support gun control because many people are not qualified or responsible enough to own a gun. I support gun control because the Founding Fathers did not anticipate fully automatic weapons and grenades being legal for all Americans to own when they wrote the second amendment. They didn't even allow people who weren't landowners to vote! When they wrote the second amendment, muskets were still powerful enough to overthrow a tyrannical government - nothing we can possess can challenge our government, which outspends all other governments combined on national defense.

4. American Leftists hate Israel because they serve the same god that rounded up and killed 6 million Jews.

Can you disagree with the policies of the state of Israel without hating it or belonging to the American Leftists? Israel does not get a free pass to act in any manner they wish to act. Even if the land was promised to Israel, it doesn't mean they are immune from God's judgement - they have a history of losing their land based on their actions.

5. American Leftists hate Christians because their god was defeated by the God of the Christians when Christ rose from the dead.

Really? You really believe that people hate Christians because they are devil worshipers? This is just another plea for applause. Some people do not like Christians because they view us as judgmental and pious.

Once you're aware of this collusion, it's easy to understand why Democrats (and some Republicans) are so cozy with all the evil that happens throughout the world.

I am Democrat and I am a Christian - most Catholics used to be Democrats, until politicians replaced prohibition with abortion as their primary wedge issue. If you think Republican leaders will ever fight to outlaw abortion, you are naive - they rely on it to secure votes. Politicians learned their lesson when prohibition was legalized - no one in Washington believed it would ever actually be legalized, but to their dismay, it actually passed - as a result, they lost a wedge issue that had lasted nearly a century. Politicians will never let that happen again. Ken Burns produced a great documentary on it - I recommend it highly.

It's easy to understand why the media, who serves Satan as well, runs interference for Satan as he works throughout the world, skewing coverage of the news in such way as to mitigate evil and indict the righteous. It's why they naturally support homosexuality, euthanasia, and giving reproductive "privacy" to 14 year old girls that supersede parental rights. It's why the point the finger of blame at America when Muslims continue to murder in the name of their wretched religion. The American Left serves the same god as the one perpetuating evil all over the globe and throughout history. It's time we started getting wise to that.

The media exploits people and groups at will. They are corporations and they operate based on the same rules as all corporations - gossip and fear mongering sell.

I could invent an ill-defined American Right and attribute all kinds of nasty, evil attributes to them, as well. It is a meaningless exercise because all oppressive, corporations are anti-human. I think your time is better spent on loving God and your neighbors perfectly. Everything else is tilting at windmills.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Well I wrote a direct response to the OP and cannot post it. Rightist conspiracy?

Why can't you post it? Writing something off as a conspiracy is just an alternative to admitting you're unable to refute it.

 

[aspen]

Yeah - scroll up

 

[Selene]

Selene, I keep conversing with people who clearly haven't even read the OP. The whole point is that we have a political and cultural force in this country that serves the same god that runs drugs from South America, and wipes out African villages with warlords and militias, and imprisons Christians and other dissidents in North Korea. It is the American Left that promotes abortion on demand, not America itself, and they do so in a demonstrable collusion with all other forms of global evil. It's clear that Satan hates children which is why he had his servants right here in America ban DDT so that millions of children (more than we abort, you should know) would die of a very preventable disease. The holocaust of innocent children is happening all over the world and is perpetuated by the devil's servants all over the world.

He's trying to get my thread locked down with the perception that it has devolved into an interdenominational fight because he believes that I had one of his threads locked down. This is nothing more than vengeful spite and I hope that my fellow Catholics don't go along with it.

In my opinion, I don't think it's the American Left that supports abortion because some Democrats are against abortion. Some of my family are Democrats and they don't promote abortion. I think the problem in American society is secularism. Freedom has been separated from truth and responsibility.

As for Islam being a dominant force.......I don't think so. Islam already view Christianity as a threat, and they know that the greatest threat to them is the Roman Catholic Church, which is why they tried to assassinate our former Pope, John Paul II. The Catholic Church was the only one who was able to push back the Muslims, and I'm certain that they have not forgotten what the Church did to them in the Siege of Vienna.

It was reported that in Indonesia, 10,000 Muslims converted to Roman Catholicism, and there is an increase in Catholicism in Asia and Africa......continents that are predominantly pagan. In 2006, the former Pope Benedict XVI baptized a famous Muslim convert (Magdi Allam), who is now encouraging other Muslim converts to speak out. There are thousands of Muslims converting to Christianity. 25% of those converts reported that they converted because they saw Christ either in a vision or a dream.....just like St. Paul did before his conversion. 85% stated that they converted because they saw the love of Christians. When a Christian has the light of Christ in them, that light will shine and bring others to conversion.

 

[aspen]

Selene - I think you are right ( Left?) about secularism. There is little doubt in my mind that secularists are trying suppress religion in the world. They believe that religion is backwards and use it as a scapegoat for the problems in the world. The disagreement I have with Vale is what you have pointed out - this is not an issue of politics or the media. It is not as simple as that. We are moving into a world where the doctrines of organized religion are being rejected by more and more people. The ban of DDT is not the problem either. I do not believe we need to be threatened by this fact or that all the ideas promoted by secularists are wrong.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

It is frustrating for me to read this statement because it does not define 'Left'. It is an attempt to generalize the beliefs of a group of people who are left undefined. It assumes that because homosexual rights are being debated in the media and the courts in America that all 'Lefts' believe some Americans are a bigger threat than Muslims are towards homosexuals - not only do I not see evidence for such a statement - I see it as merely inflammatory or meant to get applause from the 'Rights' whoever they are.

To suggest that there is no polarization of ideology in ideology is to suggest that there is also no polarization in the spirit world either but we know that's not the case. It's not a coincident that those who support high taxes and redistribution of wealth very often also support abortion, homosexuality, racism toward whites, radical environmentalism, gun confiscation, and the list goes on. It takes studious ignorance to pretend that there doesn't exist an identifiable polarization where multiple facets of an ideology tend to fall into one basket. The "Left" is not a mysterious and inscrutable group of people. They can be identified by their common viewpoint on a host of issues. It seems you are mightily disregarding what should be obvious, that people gravitate toward one of 2 polars in ideology, that we've whimsically labeled Left and Right. To say that I'm seizing upon a phenomenon that doesn't exist is to say most Americans share the same delusion.



I have not found this to be true. However, I have encountered people who believe that Christians who believe 2,000 year old ideas about how men should treat women are just as oppressive as Muslims who believe in 1500 year old ideas of how to treat women and practice them today.

You ask me what is the Left and I'll begin spelling this out one by one by identifiable traits. In their war on Christianity, one popular tactic is to equate Christianity to other religions when such equalization is unjustifiable. You post a good example of this myopic thinking, that Christians are no better in their treatment of women than Muslims. It's absolutely absurd because no matter how far you go back in Church history, women have never been nowhere near mistreated as they do in Islam. Consider this religion Islam where women are truly treated like property. They cannot vote, own land, drive, have standing in court, or show their face or limbs in public. They are subject to honor killings, vaginal mutilation, and an unequal application of the death penalty for all manner of "crimes" real or imagined. There is at no time in Christian history any remote comparison and there certainly isn't any today.


Your understanding of God vs. Satan is dualistic. Satan is a cautionary tale - he is a bad example - he is what we do not want to become. He is not a challenge for God - he is a created being who rejected God, nothing more. The war we are fighting is the tendency to follow in Satan's footsteps by giving into our selfish tendencies. I have no doubt that we will be tempted to worship ourselves daily (our American culture makes it's money off of this tendency and actively promotes it), but as far as fighting demons in the streets? You are confusing Christianity with Zoroasterism.

Satan is not a myth and he is not impotent. He is, according to scripture, stalking as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. In the book of Acts, a group of people who were not among the apostles tried to cast out demons. They were thrashed about and they fled naked. But even more dangerous than that is the sway that Satan holds over the nations. Evident to that point are events like the holocaust where a special kind of hatred was directed at the Jews, the people of God. It's difficult to suggest that the devil isn't active in the world when there's so much evidence to the contrary. As far as "fighting demons on the street", that's putting words in my mouth, something you said you don't do. We fight Satan with instruments of divine warfare. Prayer, acts of charity, pleading for the lives of the innocent, worship, praying the Rosary, these are how we fight the devil and these weapons are powerful.

But the word Allah means God. So what are Christian Arabs supposed to call God? Paul would disagree with you - he did not approach the Athenians and tell them that they were worshiping Satan - he told them that they were actually worshiping the God of the universe when they worshipped the statue of Unknown God.

You're arguing from absence. The fact that Paul omitted that idolatry is demonic doesn't mean he believed otherwise and it certainly doesn't mean he would disagree with me. Allah is not God, which means he is Satan by default. To suggest that allah is God is to completely misunderstand Christianity on a fundamental level. It's to suggest that God, after sending Jesus to die on the cross and usher in an era of grace by which men can come freely to the mercy seat and receive forgiveness and reconciliation, took a giant leap backward by reinstituting the Old Covenant by which God is inaccessible to men and salvation is a matter of works and observing religious law. To believe that allah is God is to deny Jesus Christ and the blood by which men are sanctified past present and future by a single, perfect sacrifice. Allah is not God, allah is a cursed and evil being.



So you believe that Ronald Reagan was a devout Christian?

Yes.




Why are you defending the messiah of the Conservative party if you are also going to claim to be nonpartisan?

I am not claiming to be nonpartisan nor have I ever claimed that Ronald Reagan is a "messiah". This is nothing more than your patience (and charity) coming to exhaustion. I'm sorry you're frustrated with me as indicated by an emerging edginess, but bear with me.



I am a Democrat and I am not a communist. In fact, we live in a country that has deregulated the airlines, energy production, the post office, and is fighting to make sure that medical services never become regulated - how is this Fascist trend indicative of communism?

You should know by know that I don't gloss over the meaning of words which is why I reject the label "liberal" to describe the left wing statists in our country. To that end, the word fascist and communist are certainly not interchangeable and I have called you neither of them. Words like "messiah" and "fascist" are your contribution to this conversation, not mine, it should be pointed out which means civility is in short supply. Take a step back and breathe. I'm not your enemy.



Is it possible to be against pollution and not be a member of the Left? I am not a scientist so I cannot speak about the poisonous nature of DDT, but it seems to me that it is responsible for the death of multiple species of birds and fish. Do you believe that pollution is general is just an invention of the Left?

It's impossible to be a radical environmentalist and not be a member of the Left. By that I mean promoting the global warming myth and utilizing it as an avenue for greater power, more regulation, higher taxes, and more control over people's lives. If this shoe doesn't fit you, don't wear it.

Is it possible to support the legalization of abortion and not be a member of the Left? I think the majority of people who are liberal believe that abortion should be legal, but reformed. As far as what the Left believes, I could not tell you.

Leftists support abortion on demand as a sacrament of their ideology. There is no equivocation when it comes to the sanctity of life which the Left is utterly bereft of. There's no middle ground when the end result is the death of an innocent human being no matter how abortion is "reformed".

Is it possible to support gun control and not be a Left? I support gun control because gun corporations are profiting on the death and destruction of American citizens and are arming the world. I support gun control because many people are not qualified or responsible enough to own a gun. I support gun control because the Founding Fathers did not anticipate fully automatic weapons and grenades being legal for all Americans to own when they wrote the second amendment. They didn't even allow people who weren't landowners to vote! When they wrote the second amendment, muskets were still powerful enough to overthrow a tyrannical government - nothing we can possess can challenge our government, which outspends all other governments combined on national defense.

Again you ask me to define the Left and you provide yet another good example. A Leftist trait is to seek greater and greater control over the individual and thinks nothing about the confiscation of private property nor depriving people of the means to defend themselves. The Founding Fathers accurately anticipated what government could become, and they included the 2nd amendment not to secure hunting rights, or even for self defense. The included it so that the people of the United States can take down their government and resist tyranny. In this perspective, it's clear that they didn't want the people to be outgunned by their government. So a strict reading of the 2nd Amendment has either people owning the same weaponry as the government or the government giving up its superiority in order to maintain a balance of force. Either option is in line with the spirit of the 2nd Amendment.

Can you disagree with the policies of the state of Israel without hating it or belonging to the American Leftists? Israel does not get a free pass to act in any manner they wish to act. Even if the land was promised to Israel, it doesn't mean they are immune from God's judgement - they have a history of losing their land based on their actions.

Israel is an example of the OP's main argument. The Left hates Israel because it's a stay against evil in the Middle East. They hate Israel because the devil hates Israel and has attempted twice to defeat Israel in war. Israel is a point in which the collusion between the demonic Left and the global forces arrayed against Israel, including their neighbors and the UN, are in league with each other.

Really? You really believe that people hate Christians because they are devil worshipers? This is just another plea for applause. Some people do not like Christians because they view us as judgmental and pious.

Actually, it's clear that YOU view us that way, your mind being adumbrated by Leftist thinking. I never said the Left worships the devil. They are the devil's unwitting servant. With your thinking, you would no doubt have been one of the ones scorning Jesus when he told the Pharisees "you are of your father the devil", because apparently such talk is just absurdity. But Jesus certainly dealt with the "Left" of his day, those who opposed everything good and godly, and he called them for the relationship they had with Satan. Leftists in every generation are the devil's unwitting servants.


I am Democrat and I am a Christian - most Catholics used to be Democrats, until politicians replaced prohibition with abortion as their primary wedge issue. If you think Republican leaders will ever fight to outlaw abortion, you are naive - they rely on it to secure votes. Politicians learned their lesson when prohibition was legalized - no one in Washington believed it would ever actually be legalized, but to their dismay, it actually passed - as a result, they lost a wedge issue that had lasted nearly a century. Politicians will never let that happen again. Ken Burns produced a great documentary on it - I recommend it highly.

I'm going to step out on a limb here and suggest that you don't think abortion on demand should be ended, that abortion is wrong, but outlawing it produces too many problems. Am I right?

I could invent an ill-defined American Right and attribute all kinds of nasty, evil attributes to them, as well. It is a meaningless exercise because all oppressive, corporations are anti-human. I think your time is better spent on loving God and your neighbors perfectly. Everything else is tilting at windmills.

My time is best spent opposing evil in my day, standing for what is right, and entering violently into the heavenly struggle, because as Jesus assures us, only the violent can take it by force. (Mt 11:12) I don't compromise with evil, I don't gloss it over, I don't make excuses for it. The saying is true that evil prevails when good men do nothing to stop it. I won't be guilty of that, I refuse. I will identify, resist, and make war on evil for I've been equipped with divine weapons powerful for the bringing down of strongholds, casting down ideologies, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. (2 Cor 10:4,5) I'm sorry you chose to take the path of least resistance, to fall prey to the deceptions of the devil, and to blur the lines between good and evil. I refuse to join you in that.

But thank you for the point by point regard for the OP.

In my opinion, I don't think it's the American Left that supports abortion because some Democrats are against abortion. Some of my family are Democrats and they don't promote abortion. I think the problem in American society is secularism. Freedom has been separated from truth and responsibility.

The American Left isn't necessarily Democrats


As for Islam being a dominant force.......I don't think so. Islam already view Christianity as a threat, and they know that the greatest threat to them is the Roman Catholic Church, which is why they tried to assassinate our former Pope, John Paul II. The Catholic Church was the only one who was able to push back the Muslims, and I'm certain that they have not forgotten what the Church did to them in the Siege of Vienna.

There's few that understand that. I'm glad you're one of them.


It was reported that in Indonesia, 10,000 Muslims converted to Roman Catholicism, and there is an increase in Catholicism in Asia and Africa......continents that are predominantly pagan. In 2006, the former Pope Benedict XVI baptized a famous Muslim convert (Magdi Allam), who is now encouraging other Muslim converts to speak out. There are thousands of Muslims converting to Christianity. 25% of those converts reported that they converted because they saw Christ either in a vision or a dream.....just like St. Paul did before his conversion. 85% stated that they converted because they saw the love of Christians. When a Christian has the light of Christ in them, that light will shine and bring others to conversion.

This is beautifully written.

Selene - I think you are right ( Left?) about secularism. There is little doubt in my mind that secularists are trying suppress religion in the world. They believe that religion is backwards and use it as a scapegoat for the problems in the world. The disagreement I have with Vale is what you have pointed out - this is not an issue of politics or the media. It is not as simple as that. We are moving into a world where the doctrines of organized religion are being rejected by more and more people. The ban of DDT is not the problem either. I do not believe we need to be threatened by this fact or that all the ideas promoted by secularists are wrong.

The ban on DDT kills millions. It's the single act that rivals abortion as the biggest killer of innocent children.

 

[Pelaides]

This thread is about my theory on the spiritual collusion between the political Left in America and despotic religious and political regimes globally. It isn't about winning wars by loving enemies, or anything else. Please stick to the topic. I have yet for anyone to actually address any problems or flaws in my thinking, so I might regress to take that as back handed agreement.

You sir as a clergyman(i am not to sure)should know that you will find good and bad in any group.The democrats are no worse than the republicans,And Christians can be just as bad as Muslims.You seem to forget that one of Jesuses diciples was a devil(judas).so does that mean all of the diciples were wicked?of course not.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

You sir as a clergyman(i am not to sure)should know that you will find good and bad in any group.The democrats are no worse than the republicans,And Christians can be just as bad as Muslims.You seem to forget that one of Jesuses diciples was a devil(judas).so does that mean all of the diciples were wicked?of course not.

I'm not clergy, but I'm flattered that you thought so. I'm not talking about Democrats or Republicans, I'm talking about the devil's servants in both parties. And no Christians aren't anywhere near as bad as Muslims are; in fact it isn't even close.

 

[aspen]

Vale: To suggest that there is no polarization of ideology in ideology is to suggest that there is also no polarization in the spirit world either


Aspen: I never suggested that there is no polarity of ideology in the world. I made a statement about being frustrated that you appear to be unable or unwilling to define what or who the 'Left' are. In addition, recognizing polarity in our world does not correlate with polarity in the spirit world. However since you did bring up the subject of polarity in the spirit world, I would like to address the issue; it does not exist. If it did exist, Good vs. Evil would be equal forces, which is the definition of dualism. Christianity does not teach dualism - instead, Christianity teaches that God is Good and His creation was declared by Him to be good, as well. As Augustine rightly pointed out, it was humanity that introduced evil into God's creation - evil is simply a lesser or misused form of Good. It is not a force, instead evil has the same relationship to good as cold does to heat. Christ's death on the Cross brings us back towards perfection by re-establishing a relationship with Him through forgiveness.


Vale: but we know that's not the case. It's not a coincident that those who support high taxes and redistribution of wealth very often also support abortion, homosexuality, racism toward whites, radical environmentalism, gun confiscation, and the list goes on.


Aspen: Perhaps according to FoxNews, but I think the real world of opinions are must more varied.


Vale: It takes studious ignorance to pretend that there doesn't exist an identifiable polarization where multiple facets of an ideology tend to fall into one basket.


Aspen: The suggestion that I may be embracing learned ignorance, aside; your willingness to make generalizations about the polarity of opinion (seems to me, all worldly polarity is manufactured and perpetuated by the media) only confirms that you have bought into the very worldly system you are trying to warn everyone about.


Vale: "Left" is not a mysterious and inscrutable group of people. They can be identified by their common viewpoint on a host of issues. It seems you are mightily disregarding what should be obvious, that people gravitate toward one of 2 polars in ideology, that we've whimsically labeled Left and Right. To say that I'm seizing upon a phenomenon that doesn't exist is to say most Americans share the same delusion.


Aspen: I'm glad you believe they are so obvious to distinguish from all the good people out there.....so, why is it so difficult for you to provide me with examples of the members of this group? Where you see a black and white distinction, I see people on a continuum; all have a variety of ideas and opinions, which they may feel strongly about or not so much.


Vale: You ask me what is the Left and I'll begin spelling this out one by one by identifiable traits. In their war on Christianity, one popular tactic is to equate Christianity to other religions when such equalization is unjustifiable. You post a good example of this myopic thinking, that Christians are no better in their treatment of women than Muslims.


Aspen:

1. Examples of actual members would be most helpful, but go ahead.

2. I do not believe there is a 'war on Christianity' - that phrase is a sound bite from FoxNews, which loves to incite fear by crying 'war' whenever they encounter people with different ideas.

3. There are many similarities between Christianity and other religions, however, we do not share Christ in common and this makes all the difference.

4. I was stating an opinion I have heard from people I have spoken with about the subject - I do not believe ancient Christians and Jewish people treated women in the exact same manner as Muslim, but there are definite similarities

5. The word myopic means 'nearsighted', which suggests a narrow point of view - people who want to look at similarities rather than difference between Christianity and other religions are not being myopic - hyperopic, perhaps.


Vale: It's absolutely absurd because no matter how far you go back in Church history, women have never been nowhere near mistreated as they do in Islam. Consider this religion Islam where women are truly treated like property. They cannot vote, own land, drive, have standing in court, or show their face or limbs in public. They are subject to honor killings, vaginal mutilation, and an unequal application of the death penalty for all manner of "crimes" real or imagined. There is at no time in Christian history any remote comparison and there certainly isn't any today.


Aspen: Women were considered the property of their husbands across the ancient world. Abraham had the right to kill his son because Issac was his property; Job's wives and children were listed with his livestock because they were all considered his property; women in the ancient world (except in Rome) did not have the right to divorce their husbands; women did not have the right to vote in our own country until the last century. Domestic violence laws were nonexistent until the sixties - and they were not popular among men who believed that domestic violence was a private matter. Just very fact that Jesus spoke to women was considered scandalous. Before the last century, women everywhere were considered second class citizens at best, property of men at worst.


Vale: Satan is not a myth and he is not impotent.


Aspen: Ok. I never said otherwise.


Vale: He is, according to scripture, stalking as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.[/quote]


Aspen: And, as a toothless lion.


Vale: In the book of Acts, a group of people who were not among the apostles tried to cast out demons. They were thrashed about and they fled naked. But even more dangerous than that is the sway that Satan holds over the nations. Evident to that point are events like the holocaust where a special kind of hatred was directed at the Jews, the people of God. It's difficult to suggest that the devil isn't active in the world when there's so much evidence to the contrary. As far as "fighting demons on the street", that's putting words in my mouth, something you said you don't do. We fight Satan with instruments of divine warfare. Prayer, acts of charity, pleading for the lives of the innocent, worship, praying the Rosary, these are how we fight the devil and these weapons are powerful.


Aspen: I never said you made that statement - I was illustrating my point. My point, once again, is that we are our own worst enemy. Sure Satan is a powerful being, but he is only a creation, just like we are. He is not omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient - he does not know us personally, nor can he read our minds. Yes, he can derail us by tempting us with the standard fair, but how challenging is that? Most people are duped into spreading money based on a favorite commercial! I can tempt my dogs with the mere tone of my voice. Do you really think we could hold the attention of such a powerful being for centuries? As if we are any challenge at all....lol. The real battle we face is resisting the tendency to be selfish and instead placing our faith in God, believing that He loves us, which leads us on to love outwardly rather than selfishly. Satan and the angels that followed him, refused to fight the urge to be selfish and instead embraced it. I pray that I will not follow their example.


Vale: You're arguing from absence. The fact that Paul omitted that idolatry is demonic doesn't mean he believed otherwise and it certainly doesn't mean he would disagree with me.


Aspen: On the contrary, Paul told the Athenians that the unknown god they were worshipping was the true God of creation - if he believed that the unknown god was actually satan, he lied. I do not believe Paul lied. Acts 17:22-23


Vale: Allah is not God, which means he is Satan by default.


Aspen: I said the word Allah means God. It means God in Arabic. Sorry if that bothers you - it is a fact. Palestinian Christians pray to Allah. How would you like it if you spoke Arabic and a Christian told you about God, but you could not call Him God because you spoke a language where God means Allah? Based on your post, you sure have a small image of God (if it is not God) and a big image of Satan (he is Satan by default).


Vale: To suggest that allah is God is to completely misunderstand Christianity on a fundamental level.


Aspen: Really? I think someone should have let John Paul II and Pope Francis know - and somebody better change the current catechism.

In his weekly general audience in late May of 1999, Pope John Paul II
addressed Muslims in a series discussing "interreligious dialog." He
quotes from the 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church n. 841 which
states, "... together with us they (Muslims) adore the one, merciful,
God."


Vale: It's to suggest that God, after sending Jesus to die on the cross and usher in an era of grace by which men can come freely to the mercy seat and receive forgiveness and reconciliation, took a giant leap backward by reinstituting the Old Covenant by which God is inaccessible to men and salvation is a matter of works and observing religious law. To believe that allah is God is to deny Jesus Christ and the blood by which men are sanctified past present and future by a single, perfect sacrifice. Allah is not God, allah is a cursed and evil being.


Aspen: Absolutely not. There is no doubt that Islam teaches an incorrect understanding of God and they refuse to acknowledge the divinity of Christ, but doctrine can be corrected. No need to demonized the little understanding they possess.


Vale: You should know by know that I don't gloss over the meaning of words which is why I reject the label "liberal" to describe the left wing statists in our country. To that end, the word fascist and communist are certainly not interchangeable and I have called you neither of them. Words like "messiah" and "fascist" are your contribution to this conversation, not mine, it should be pointed out which means civility is in short supply. Take a step back and breathe. I'm not your enemy.


Aspen: I am sorry you are viewing my posts as uncharitable. I do not perceive you as an enemy. I simply have a different perspective than you do and I am sharing it. I thought you were interested in a discussion? My last point is that America has been moving towards Facism ever since Nixon took office - before Nixon, Lynden Johnson continued and expanded the policies of Rooselvet, which promoted a much more socialist approach - some have prejoritively referred to it as building a 'nanny state'. So here is the disconnect for me, we live in a country that has deregulated, to the cultures detriment, many of the essential services that we rely on to thrive as a people - I listed a few of them in my last post; yet, the media seems to be fixated on the idea that Obama is a communist. This is a perfect example of cognitive dissidence. Also, I am not the person that is trying to fit people into a category - after our conversation, I will view you as a person with different ideas than me. On the contrary, I have a feeling that you will lump me into the category of the Left, which is evil - or at best you will see me as uneducated or brainwashed.


Vale: It's impossible to be a radical environmentalist and not be a member of the Left. By that I mean promoting the global warming myth and utilizing it as an avenue for greater power, more regulation, higher taxes, and more control over people's lives. If this shoe doesn't fit you, don't wear it.


Aspen: The Pope believes in global warming, is he one of the members of the Left?


Vale: Leftists support abortion on demand as a sacrament of their ideology. There is no equivocation when it comes to the sanctity of life which the Left is utterly bereft of. There's no middle ground when the end result is the death of an innocent human being no matter how abortion is "reformed".


Aspen: The phrase 'abortion on demand' is another sound bite - there is no law called abortion on demand. It is equivalent to relabeling the estate tax as 'death tax' and claiming that Obama's medical plan is trying to kill grandma. It is all apart of the fear mongering and propaganda, which is part of the worldliness you are trying to warn us all about. Yes, abortion is a sin and it is a horror, but criminalizing it solves nothing. The church needs to fight abortion by working to change the terrible adoption laws, the fostercare system and, possibly offering to provide full care for mothers and infants. If we provide a fantastic alternative, why would anyone choose to kill their infant?


Vale: A Leftist trait is to seek greater and greater control over the individual and thinks nothing about the confiscation of private property nor depriving people of the means to defend themselves.[/quote]


Aspen: I do not mean this as an insult, but this statement could not be anymore Protestant! The individual? Private property? Where is the individual in corporal worship? Where is the individual in the Body of Christ? Catholics find their identity in Christ! Where is private property in the monastery? Sorry, but we totally disagree on this line of reasoning - America was built on Enlightenment/Masonic ideals, not Christianity. Most of the Founding Fathers were Deists and that is about as fringe Protestant as it gets.

Private property is more of a burden than a blessing. All we need are the basics. Radical individualism is one of the main attributes of the damned. Isolation from the Body, isolation from God; all within the horror of utter darkness and loneliness.


Vale: The Founding Fathers accurately anticipated what government could become, and they included the 2nd amendment not to secure hunting rights, or even for self defense. The included it so that the people of the United States can take down their government and resist tyranny. In this perspective, it's clear that they didn't want the people to be outgunned by their government. So a strict reading of the 2nd Amendment has either people owning the same weaponry as the government or the government giving up its superiority in order to maintain a balance of force. Either option is in line with the spirit of the 2nd Amendment.


Aspen: Apparently, they did not anticipate what the government would become because they never advocated for the rights of minorities or nonlandowners. They also never advocated for a static constitution - they expected it to grow with the times. The FF were not omnipotent - the were just intelligent men.

"George Washington has been quoted as saying the Constitution was an imperfect product, made more perfect by the ability to amend it. The Founding Fathers anticipated that changes to the Constitution would be necessary with changing times and established a process for amending it in Article V of that document. In earlier years, no deadline was imposed for an amendment to wind its way through the states. For example, the 27th amendment was proposed in 1789 and only ratified in 1992, 203 years later!"

www.ilonanickels.com/CC_amending.html


Vale: Israel is an example of the OP's main argument. The Left hates Israel because it's a stay against evil in the Middle East. They hate Israel because the devil hates Israel and has attempted twice to defeat Israel in war. Israel is a point in which the collusion between the demonic Left and the global forces arrayed against Israel, including their neighbors and the UN, are in league with each other.


Aspen: Yet another stereotype.....

National Public Radio is often criticized for advocating for many of the ideas that you claim to be part of the Left, but they cannot stop talking about Israel. It is almost impossible to listen to NPR without commentators comparing seemingly unrelated to stories back to Israel. In addition, American Jewish people often embrace many of the ideas you attribute to the Left, but as we know, are staunch advocates of Israel.


Vale: Actually, it's clear that YOU view us that way, your mind being adumbrated by Leftist thinking. I never said the Left worships the devil. They are the devil's unwitting servant. With your thinking, you would no doubt have been one of the ones scorning Jesus when he told the Pharisees "you are of your father the devil", because apparently such talk is just absurdity. But Jesus certainly dealt with the "Left" of his day, those who opposed everything good and godly, and he called them for the relationship they had with Satan. Leftists in every generation are the devil's unwitting servants.[/quote]


Aspen: Wow. Just like I feared, I am being fitted for your category called Left.

For one thing, Jesus was the radical - He was challenging the establishment, which was upheld by the Pharisees. For another, Jesus rightfully stated that the Pharisees were following in the footsteps of the Devil - they were advocating doctrine and form at the expense of people.

Vale: My time is best spent opposing evil in my day, standing for what is right, and entering violently into the heavenly struggle, because as Jesus assures us, only the violent can take it by force. (Mt 11:12) I don't compromise with evil, I don't gloss it over, I don't make excuses for it. The saying is true that evil prevails when good men do nothing to stop it. I won't be guilty of that, I refuse. I will identify, resist, and make war on evil for I've been equipped with divine weapons powerful for the bringing down of strongholds, casting down ideologies, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. (2 Cor 10:4,5) I'm sorry you chose to take the path of least resistance, to fall prey to the deceptions of the devil, and to blur the lines between good and evil. I refuse to join you in that.

Aspen: Why does the truth need defending by you? Jesus never call His disciples to go out and baptize and defend the truth......in fact, He rightly corrected the Pharisees when they tried to trap Him by stating 'why do you call me good, only God is good'; meaning, you have no idea what is Good, nor any authority to proclaim anything good - only God understands good and evil. We are called by Christ for one thing - loving unselfishly - this is what we were created to do and is therefore perfection.

My only disappointment is when you failed to address my points. It seemed to me that you only used them as a launching point to further promote your OP. Oh we'll, perhaps we will continue the discussion another time.

Blessings

 

[Pelaides]

I'm not clergy, but I'm flattered that you thought so. I'm not talking about Democrats or Republicans, I'm talking about the devil's servants in both parties. And no Christians aren't anywhere near as bad as Muslims are; in fact it isn't even close.

I thought you were amember of the clergy because of your avatar.But maybe this explains why you are spewing intolerance and ignorance.Members of the clergy know better.

Is someone paying you to go on christian forums and write right wing propaganda?

Christiananity and politics make strange bedfellows.