The Controlled Fall

[Netchaplain]

I do not believe Satan transferred sin to Eve that wasn't already resident within her and Adam. Their disobedience was evidence of possessing a sin nature prior to the act. I believe the Enemy did not inject something but rather revealed something preexisting.

Eve's disobedience was due to deception, for "Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" (1 Tim 2:14); "the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty" (2 Cor 11:3). The evidence of her sin nature was that she saw, "a tree to be desired to make one wise" (Gen 3:6); and we must realize this was before the temptation.

These three causes of Eve in Genesis 3:6 have been paralleled with 1 John 2:16; "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh (good for food), and the lust of the eyes (pleasant to the eyes), and the pride of life (desired to make one wise), is not of the Father, but is of the world." She was familiar with the fact that "out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food" (Gen 2:9), but this scenario did not apply to a tree to be desired to make one wise.

Adam's disobedience was due to putting God's word second to his wife, for he "hearkened unto the voice of thy wife" (Gen 3:17). Scripture is not clear concerning Adam's reason for the disobedience, other than "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat" (Gen 3:12). This sounds like blame but I think Adam was just stating a truth, not blaming Eve because my conjecture is that out of compassion for Eve, he was willing to die with her.

The crux of this concept is to portray that God in His omniscience "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph 1:11); "according to His own purpose and grace" (2 Tim 1:9). Simply put, what transpired was the way He desired it to go, or He would have done it another way.

 

[Spirit Covenant]

Preexisting is a misnomer of truth. When you make the dough for biscuits you use ingredients to make something new. Sin was found in them by the ingredients that were mixed to achieve it. However God did not make a mistake and then send Christ to fix it. Man was created to fall because the savior was the first born over all creation.


Colossians 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.


Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--






.

 

[Netchaplain]

"Man was created to fall"

Tis true SC and thanks for your input!

 

[aspen]

Yet God declared His Creation "good"

Christ was predestined to come for us - unfortunately, He had to die for us because that was what we needed the most.

 

[Netchaplain]

Yet God declared His Creation "good"

Christ was predestined to come for us - unfortunately, He had to die for us because that was what we needed the most.

Hi Aspen - That's a good point. Everything He does is good, even the use of evil for good and He had to declare it so because He is the highest authority.

 

[aspen]

Hi Aspen - That's a good point. Everything He does is good, even the use of evil for good and He had to declare it so because He is the highest authority.

Hi Aspen - That's a good point. Everything He does is good, even the use of evil for good and He had to declare it so because He is the highest authority.

Hmm....

I do not think evil can be used for good. If I lie, I become a liar, even if the lie is used for noble purposes. Evil is not a force - it is a lesser form of good. God doesn't create broken things because He is perfect. I do not believe the end ever justifies the mean.

 

[MTPockets]

I do not believe Satan transferred sin to Eve that wasn't already resident within her and Adam. Their disobedience was evidence of possessing a sin nature prior to the act. I believe the Enemy did not inject something but rather revealed something preexisting.

Hi! 'NetChaplain'
i gotta' admit ... reading yer Thread here left me utterly breathless.
I had no idea that my intrinsic nature was so intolerably evil. I can only suppose that God mustah' told a tidy lie when scripture reports that "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good".
By the way, I didn't particularly notice that the DayCare needed to fearfully close their doors this morning after catching a glimpse of all those 'depraved' children happily greeting them.

 

[Netchaplain]

I do not think evil can be used for good.

God doesn't create broken things because He is perfect.

Hi Aspen - I believe God uses evil to contrast with good, not make evil good but to reveal what is good. For the saved, He uses all things (including evil) for their good and His glory (Rom 8:28). God takes the evil of men, esp. the Enemie's evil, and works it out for good (Gen 50:20).

I don't understand the second line.

I had no idea that my intrinsic nature was so intolerably evil.

By the way, I didn't particularly notice that the DayCare needed to fearfully close their doors this morning after catching a glimpse of all those 'depraved' children happily greeting them.

Hi MTP - The sinful nature of man is not causal but grievous, which became evident when the price for it was paid. Children are not accountable for eternal damnation and to deny that mankind, at any age, has the sin nature conflicts with Scripture. To be truly saved and yet misunderstand the Adamic-nature is to be as an unsinkable ship in the sea; completely safe but tossed and troubled by unseen winds.

 

[aspen]

Hi Aspen - I believe God uses evil to contrast with good, not make evil good but to reveal what is good. For the saved, He uses all things (including evil) for their good and His glory (Rom 8:28). God takes the evil of men, esp. the Enemie's evil, and works it out for good (Gen 50:20).

I don't understand the second line.

Evil is not a force - it is the lack of Good. Therefore, anything evil is less than perfect, or broken. We do not need a broken piece of creation in order to understand or appreciate a perfect piece of creation. Also, God does not make broken pieces of creation. In essence, the serpent misused Adam and Eve in the Garden by teaching them to misuse themselves.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Why does He yet find fault with us? For who has resisted His will?

 

[Axehead]

Genesis 1:26 -- In the beginning the Bible tells us that Adam was created in the image of God. I believe he had a total innocence and a pure heart with no impure motives. He was holy and blameless and that is why he had close, unbroken fellowship with the God.

 

[Netchaplain]

Genesis 1:26 -- In the beginning the Bible tells us that Adam was created in the image of God. I believe he had a total innocence and a pure heart with no impure motives. He was holy and blameless and that is why he had close, unbroken fellowship with the God.

Hi Ax - My concern isn't with the chronology of sin's presence as much as it is concerning the fact that God foreknew what they did from eternity past and in this omniscience I find security in knowing He has control of it all.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

I do not believe Satan transferred sin to Eve that wasn't already resident within her and Adam. Their disobedience was evidence of possessing a sin nature prior to the act. I believe the Enemy did not inject something but rather revealed something preexisting.

Eve's disobedience was due to deception, for "Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" (1 Tim 2:14); "the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty" (2 Cor 11:3). The evidence of her sin nature was that she saw, "a tree to be desired to make one wise" (Gen 3:6); and we must realize this was before the temptation.

These three causes of Eve in Genesis 3:6 have been paralleled with 1 John 2:16; "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh (good for food), and the lust of the eyes (pleasant to the eyes), and the pride of life (desired to make one wise), is not of the Father, but is of the world." She was familiar with the fact that "out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food" (Gen 2:9), but this scenario did not apply to a tree to be desired to make one wise.

Adam's disobedience was due to putting God's word second to his wife, for he "hearkened unto the voice of thy wife" (Gen 3:17). Scripture is not clear concerning Adam's reason for the disobedience, other than "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat" (Gen 3:12). This sounds like blame but I think Adam was just stating a truth, not blaming Eve because my conjecture is that out of compassion for Eve, he was willing to die with her.

The crux of this concept is to portray that God in His omniscience "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph 1:11); "according to His own purpose and grace" (2 Tim 1:9). Simply put, what transpired was the way He desired it to go, or He would have done it another way.

I probably was not clear enough in my first post on this subject, therefore I will make a second attempt.

I perceive great problems for the faith as this post is stated. The very real possibility exists that I am lacking understanding to the actual intent of the post.

If sin "preexisted" in Adam and Eve, the implication would be that God created sin. Obviously, there would be a number of problems with that. It would first assume that evil was something that was created, instead of being merely a word we use to communicate an idea relating an absence of good (which God did create). Similar to light/dark, wet/dry and so on. God would have had to have an intricate knowledge with evil (as we see in all His other creation worked out in great detail). This would be charging God with sin.

The other statement that I can not comprehend is that God "wanted it to transpire as it did". This seems to take the responsibility out of our hands and putting it directly into His. I perceive He is not responsible for my sin. Choice is another of God's creations, with the most intricate of detail. Adam and Eve did decide to take part in this part of creation...to the detriment of all who would follow. To be honest, however, I likely would have made the same choice....I am a sinner also.

Hopefully I was more clear. I find it tremendously concerning that I am misunderstanding you, as I like to be able to "figure things out". Could I please ask for an explanation of these two points?

Thank you.

 

[Axehead]

Hi Ax - My concern isn't with the chronology of sin's presence as much as it is concerning the fact that God foreknew what they did from eternity past and in this omniscience I find security in knowing He has control of it all.

You don't mean what they did in "eternity past" but that God in eternity past knew what they would do? Right?

The only reason that I would have security knowing that He has control of it all is if I am abiding in Him. If I am not abiding in the Lord, then there is definitely a lack of security. I cannot feel secure if I am not in fellowship with Him. When Adam lost fellowship with God, he lost his security, too.

To take security in theological concepts is not security at all. The only true security is in the Vine and being IN THE VINE.

 

[Netchaplain]

You don't mean what they did in "eternity past" but that God in eternity past knew what they would do? Right?

Right and thanks for that heads-up because the way I posted it, there was no point of separation in thought.

I agree with your post, except I believe God eventually made them right with Him because their disobedience did not evidence disbelief in Him, they just started learning the way He wanted them to.

 

[Axehead]

Right and thanks for that heads-up because the way I posted it, there was no point of separation in thought.

I agree with your post, except I believe God eventually made them right with Him because their disobedience did not evidence disbelief in Him, they just started learning the way He wanted them to.

Well, we were created derivative creatures, right? In other words, we must derive our spiritual life from one of two sources (God or Satan), whereas Satan's "life" is a counterfeit. There is not a third choice from which we derive our spiritual life. We cannot stand alone and choose to be apart from either God or Satan. New Age philosophy believes we can, that if we only "look within". So, if we are not eating from the Tree of Life we are eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Again, there is not a 3rd tree. And this is what Christians don't understand (by and large) that if we are not abiding in Christ, we are abiding in Satan. If they understood the consequences of not abiding in Christ, there would be much more hatred for sin and a much more love for righteousness and holiness. (He that is not with me is against me). You cannot choose to not abide in Christ or Satan and just stand alone. Jesus told the Pharisees "you are of your father the Devil and the you always do the things that your father does". They took great offense to that statement, but Jesus was basically telling them that they were abiding in the Devil.

When Jesus was being tested in the wilderness, Satan was quoting (perverting) God's Word to Him just as He had done to Adam and Eve in the garden. Here, the 2nd Adam was being tested the same way Adam was tested. And whose word would Jesus believe? Satan, the Father of Lies was trying to get Jesus to turn away from His Father's Word and turn towards his word. He was trying to get Jesus to receive his word and this would have meant that Jesus would have to reject His Father's word in order to receive Satan's word. This is what unbelief is. When you reject the Word of God and receive a lie. Adam received "another Gospel", "another word", rejected God's word, and thus his unbelief was completed. If Adam believed that he would surely die, then he would not have believed Satan's word "that ye shall be like God". Adam exercised faith in Satan's word.

Abiding is all about whose words we receive as the truth and whose words we reject. You cannot receive Satan's words and abide in Christ. If you are receiving Christ's word into your heart (on good ground) then you will be abiding in Christ.

Eze_3:10 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, all my words that I shall speak unto thee receive in thine heart, and hear with thine ears.

Jas_1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

What is it that people don't believe (unbelief), but God's word to them. Unbelief is actually believing and receiving something other than God's word. Receiving another word is receiving "another spirit" that is behind that word. There is no neutrality. Unbelief is choosing to believe a lie which then makes you an unbeliever in God's truth.

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

And we are made partakers of Christ by receiving His word and coming into agreement with it.

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

And again, many don't enter into His rest because the don't believe the gospel (the whole counsel of God). Hebrews_4:2 speaks of the GOSPEL being PREACHED. This is talking about WORDS from GOD as the True Gospel is from GOD.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Unbelief, again is linked to hardening our hearts by not turning towards Him and hearing His voice. Receiving God's Words are health to our bones. They will soften our hearts. But, receiving contrary words (though they are wonderfully and cleverly counterfeited will only harden our hearts towards the Lord).
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

This is the metamorphisis of how Adam fell into unbelief towards the Lord whom he walked with, receiving the Lord's words, each day. He received ANOTHER WORD (thereby refusing to HEAR HIS VOICE, and rejecting the Lord's word).

2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh (Satan) preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.



Axehead

 

[Alanforchrist]

I do not believe Satan transferred sin to Eve that wasn't already resident within her and Adam. Their disobedience was evidence of possessing a sin nature prior to the act. I believe the Enemy did not inject something but rather revealed something preexisting.

Eve's disobedience was due to deception, for "Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" (1 Tim 2:14); "the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty" (2 Cor 11:3). The evidence of her sin nature was that she saw, "a tree to be desired to make one wise" (Gen 3:6); and we must realize this was before the temptation.

These three causes of Eve in Genesis 3:6 have been paralleled with 1 John 2:16; "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh (good for food), and the lust of the eyes (pleasant to the eyes), and the pride of life (desired to make one wise), is not of the Father, but is of the world." She was familiar with the fact that "out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food" (Gen 2:9), but this scenario did not apply to a tree to be desired to make one wise.

Adam's disobedience was due to putting God's word second to his wife, for he "hearkened unto the voice of thy wife" (Gen 3:17). Scripture is not clear concerning Adam's reason for the disobedience, other than "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat" (Gen 3:12). This sounds like blame but I think Adam was just stating a truth, not blaming Eve because my conjecture is that out of compassion for Eve, he was willing to die with her.

The crux of this concept is to portray that God in His omniscience "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph 1:11); "according to His own purpose and grace" (2 Tim 1:9). Simply put, what transpired was the way He desired it to go, or He would have done it another way.

You must be an erroneous calvanist.

Hi Aspen - I believe God uses evil to contrast with good, not make evil good but to reveal what is good. For the saved, He uses all things (including evil) for their good and His glory (Rom 8:28). God takes the evil of men, esp. the Enemie's evil, and works it out for good (Gen 50:20).

I don't understand the second line.


Hi MTP - The sinful nature of man is not causal but grievous, which became evident when the price for it was paid. Children are not accountable for eternal damnation and to deny that mankind, at any age, has the sin nature conflicts with Scripture. To be truly saved and yet misunderstand the Adamic-nature is to be as an unsinkable ship in the sea; completely safe but tossed and troubled by unseen winds.

If you read Rom 8: 26--28 in it's right context,
You'll see that all things work together for our good, Only when the Holy Spirit is interceeding for us.

One man said to me,
"My wife has run of and took the kids".
So I said,
Why did you desire her to leave,
He said,.."I didn't".
So I said,
"So, Why did you pray for her to leave".
He said,.. "I didn't".

"So I said, Then it isn't working for your good".

Things only work for our good as we desire it and pray about it,
Then the Holy Spirit stands together with us against the problems that are stoping us getting our hearts desire.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Alanforchrist,

Then the Holy Spirit stands together with us against the problems that are stoping us getting our hearts desire.

Is the heart's desire you're talking about one which has been submitted to God? Psalm 37:4, 5

(I know a marriage break-up is not God's will.)

 

[Alanforchrist]

Hi Alanforchrist,



Is the heart's desire you're talking about one which has been submitted to God? Psalm 37:4, 5

(I know a marriage break-up is not God's will.)

Bible scholars believe inthe law of double refference,
And Ps 37: 4-5, Is refering to the fact that we can have any desires that is provided by God for us.
All God's promises are YES AND AMEN, And God will never say No to the things He has provided for us.
So we need to find out what God has already provided for us.
The other meaning is, God does give us desires, He might give one a desire to pray for someone, He might give us a desire to bless someone, He might give us a desire to do somthing or go somewhere,
Sometimes we have a choice to make, And don't know which one to take, So we can commit our desires to God and let Him show us the right one, And if we are willing to let our desires become what God wants', and listen to His voice, He will give us the right desire.
We need never make another mistake if we seek God's desire, Plans ans purposes for us.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Alanforchrist,

Thank you. That was a great reply! :)