The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14

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Spiritual Israelite

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It was prophesied in the OT.
Yes, I know that. In Daniel 9:26-27.

Read the entire "song of Moses" in Deuteronomy 32:1-43, which gave all the details of how Israel's "latter end" would finish them as a people experiencing God's "vengeance".

This "song of Moses" was being sung in Revelation 15:3, just prior to all the seven plagues being poured out upon the earth against those who had shed the blood of the saints and prophets (which Christ said Old Jerusalem was guilty of in Matt. 23:29-37). Luke's description of the "great distress in the land and wrath upon THIS people" (the apostate Jews) would soon be coming to pass in AD 66-70.
I'm not going to buy your preterist nonsense. The book of Revelation is about Jesus Christ and His church and His enemies and covers the entire New Testament time period and has nothing to do with 70 AD.
 

Marty fox

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Big mistake. I do NOT think Josephus can carry the weight that your interpretation places upon him.

@rwb's question was not whether the destruction of Jerusalem was terrible. It certainly was. My question was how 70 AD fulfills Christ's words that it would be a tribulation "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Appealing to Josephus does not answer that question. Josephus was not an inspired prophet, apostle, or eyewitness chosen by God to interpret biblical prophecy. He was a Jewish historian writing decades later under Roman patronage. Scripture must interpret Scripture, not Josephus interpreting Scripture. Selah!

Furthermore, if we are speaking merely of physical death and suffering, how can 70 AD honestly be called the worst event in world history? Really? The Flood destroyed the entire world. The Assyrian and Babylonian invasions devastated nations. Countless wars, plagues, famines, and persecutions throughout history have killed many millions more people than died in Jerusalem. Even by a purely historical standard, the claim becomes difficult to sustain.

The problem is that Christ was NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT merely speaking about a local judgment upon first-century Jerusalem. The context of Matthew 24 moves beyond local events and focuses upon false christs, false prophets, worldwide deception, the gathering of the elect, and signs of the sun, moon and stars applies to the CHURCH at the end part of the same great tribulation period of Revelation 7! Right prior to the visible coming of the Son of Man.

What makes the Great Tribulation "greater" than all previous tribulations is not simply the number of bodies that die. It is the unprecedented spiritual darkness that comes upon the world near the end of the age.

The Bible repeatedly warns of a great falling away, widespread deception, and the rise of false christs and false prophets. The New Testament visible church itself becomes corrupted as Babylon the Great. Satan, who had been restrained while Christ built his church, is loosed for a little season. The assault is directed NOT primarily against earthly Jerusalem, but against the New Testament congregation—the spiritual dwelling place of God's people.

This is why Christ repeatedly warns about deception in Matthew 24. The chapter is saturated with warnings about false christs, false prophets, and counterfeit gospels. If the passage were primarily about a (ahem) military siege in 70 AD, why does Christ spend so much time warning about spiritual deception, huh?!

Listen, the Great Tribulation becomes most severe when the work of gathering the elect is complete - for those who endure the little season! Revelation shows a point when ALL servants of God have been sealed. The number of those who are "alive and remain" grows smaller and smaller. The visible church becomes increasingly overrun by false teaching. The witness of the true Gospel becomes exceedingly rare. Were those days not shortened, no flesh would be saved to be rapture out, get it?

That, in my view, is why the tribulation is unparalleled. It is not merely a crisis of physical survival but a crisis of spiritual deception on a global scale unlike anything before it or shall be! Jerusalem 70AD, you think? Please! Not even close!

The irony is that the preterist view reduces Christ's warning from a climactic end-of-age conflict affecting the whole body of Christ to a five-month Roman siege affecting one geographic city is a laughingstock! Yet Revelation 7 does not show a remnant from first-century Judea. It shows an innumerable multitude from every nation, kindred, people, and tongue who came out of the Great Tribulation, include the first century! Selah!

For that reason, Matthew 24 and Revelation 7 are speaking about the SAME Great Tribulation. It spans the New Testament age, reaches its most intense phase after Satan is loosed, and culminates in the return of Christ, the resurrection of the dead, and the gathering of all His elect.

Selah!

Did you read my whole post? I gave other reasons besides how many died and what Josephus said and even said that it wasn't about how many were killed what makes it the worst time in history.

History proves the true meaning of biblical prophecy and the fact that destruction of Jerusalem happened when Jesus said that it would happen shows the truth.

If Matthew 24 is about the whole world then how come verse 20 says

"20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath."?

Why would that matter to the whole world? Why would the world care about the Sabbath?

Obviously, it is about the Jews
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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RWB, I will response to Spiritual Israelite ridiculous post here.
So, he needs you to speak for him? LOL. No one believes in more ridiculous nonsense than you do.

Ladies and gentlemen, this comedian here who calls himself "TribulationSigns" does not believe that there is such thing as spirit beings called the devil/Satan, demons and angels. This guy can't even discern that Jesus prophesied that the temple buildings standing at that time would be destroyed despite Him explicitly saying so in Matthew 24:1-2/Mark 13:1-2/Luke 21:6-7. This person is not someone that anyone should take seriously.

What SI is trying to do is to creates two different "great tribulations" where Scripture only speaks of one.
LOL. Tell us you can't comprehend the context of scripture without telling us you can't comprehend the context of scripture. Matthew 24:15-22/Mark 13:14-20/Luke 21:20-24 speak of God's wrath while Revelation 7 refers to trials and tribulations that Christians experience.

He is distinguishing between a great tribulation that believers endure and another great tribulation that is supposedly "God's wrath" upon Jerusalem.
LOL! Supposedly? Can you not read? After Jesus was asked when the temple buildings standing at that time would be destroyed He said this...

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

This is talking about the wrath of God that poured out on the Jews in 70 AD using the Roman armies. The same as Jesus talked about in this parable as well..

Matthew 22:2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

Parables require spiritual discernment, so, because of that, I don't expect you to understand what Jesus was talking about here. But, those with discernment understand that this is talking about when the gospel was first preached to the Jews who mostly rejected it and rejected the Son (Jesus) of the King (God the Father). So, God destroyed many of them and their city in 70 AD, proving again that He doesn't mess around when people repeatedly defy Him and refuse to repent.

Yet Revelation 7:14 identifies those who ALL came out of "great tribulation" as the redeemed saints who washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. The focus is clearly on God's people enduring and overcoming, not on the wicked experiencing divine judgment.
That's what I said when I told Marty how I understand it. Hello? Not only can you not understand scripture, you can't understand what anyone says on this forum.

The Bible CLEARLY distinguishes between tribulation and wrath. Tribulation is what God's people suffer in the world. Wrath is what God pours out upon the ungodly. Jesus said, "In the world ye shall have tribulation" (John 16:33). He did not say believers would endure God's wrath. Conflating the two creates confusion in the text.
I never said that believers endure God's wrath. Your man-made rules are part of the reason why you don't understand scripture. You're talking about what is the case a majority of the time, but you are apparently too ignorant to understand that tribulation can refer to God's wrath, just as it does in the following passages...

Romans 2:9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

2 Thessalonians 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

I also believe his interpretation is heavily dependent upon reading Matthew 24 and Luke 21 primarily through the lens of 70 AD. Big mistake!
Primarily? No. Not even close. Your ignorance has no end.

However, Christ's discourse extends far beyond the destruction of Jerusalem.
Of course it does. Hello? I've said that many times. What is your excuse for your ignorance of what others believe?

The disciples asked about His coming and the end of the age, and Christ's answer culminates with the gathering of the elect, and His visible return in glory. Those events clearly did not occur in 70 AD.
Of course.

Furthermore, I do not believe "Judaea" in the Olivet Discourse should be understood merely in a geographical sense.
There is no basis for that belief whatsoever. Jesus spoke quite literally in the Olivet Discourse other than in His parables.

I'm not going to bother reading the rest of your nonsense since it's full of misinterpretations of both scriptures and my beliefs. It's making me nauseous.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Did you read my whole post? I gave other reasons besides how many died and what Josephus said and even said that it wasn't about how many were killed what makes it the worst time in history.

Yes, I read your whole post, including your additional arguments beyond casualty counts and Josephus.

But even taking those broader factors into account, your conclusion still does not hold up. Nothing you presented demonstrates that the events in first-century Judea constitute the worst time in world history in any objective or consistent sense of the language being used. That claim goes far beyond what the evidence can reasonably support.

You can argue intensity, significance, or theological meaning—but “worse than ever before or ever again” is a categorical statement, and what you’ve cited does not justify that level of absolute comparison.


History proves the true meaning of biblical prophecy and the fact that destruction of Jerusalem happened when Jesus said that it would happen shows the truth.

Sorry, that’s not correct!


History doesn’t “prove” a particular interpretation of biblical prophecy in the way you’re claiming. You can try with data points, but the MEANING of prophecy is still an interpretive question.


Also, pointing to the destruction of Jerusalem and saying it automatically confirms a specific prophetic framework is a conclusion, not a fact. You still have to demonstrate that the text is actually referring to that event in the way you assume—something you haven’t established.

If Matthew 24 is about the whole world then how come verse 20 says

"20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath."?

Why would that matter to the whole world? Why would the world care about the Sabbath?

Obviously, it is about the Jews

No it is not for the Jews in the first century as you think! Clearly you do not even understand what winter and sabbath the Lord really talked about.

It is for the New Testament during the little season of Satan loosening, prior to the Second Coming. Here is a spiritual education for you that concerns the CHURCH!

Winter in scripture is the time of hardship, deprivation and storms where there is a lack of stores in the field. It is a time when all the harvest is done and there can be no more increase. A time when the work in the field has ended. Like the Sabbath, it signifies a time of rest, when the earth rests from its work.

And I also think that (Like the Sabbath in Matthew) it also symbolizes a time when salvation has ended on earth and there can be no more work in the field. It is because Christ has secured all Elect through the testimony of Two Witnesses that you need to read Revelation 7:1-4. After this will be no more fruits of the field to harvest. It is the time when no man can work to bring an increase. Selah!

Song of Solomon 2:11
  • "For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;"
Here God is illustrating that the rain of the winter storms is past. The time of privation and hardship is gone, and with summer comes flowers and new life. But winter preceding it is illustrated as tempest, storm, trouble, a time when life is dorment. That's why I believe Matthew 24 warns, "pray our flight be not in winter."

Jeremiah 8:20
  • "The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved."
This is what it is talking about. A period when time has run out for man to be delivered or saved. Pray that man's flight from Judea is NOT at a time when salvation has ended and no man can work. Because if we are not saved then (Revelation 7:3), we will be under judgement and wrath of God. Selah!
Pray that your flight not be on the Sabbath is NOT directed to the first century Jews, but to the New Testament Church AFTER our working with the great commission is over. The Church should pray it's flight is not on the Sabbath (day of rest). For the sabbath is a day when no man can work because the Church's testimony is finished (Revelation 11:7). A day that Christ foretold when the candle would be put out, and sacrifice and offering would cease. Do you realize this?

John 9:4-5
  • "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
  • As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

This is a Sabbath day, when all work ceases. Selah!

To think that Christ was prophesying about a Old Testament day, which He fulfilled by going to the cross, as a coming future event, is confusion. Christ came as our Sabbath of rest. When He died, the Old Testament Sabbath had no more significant anymore than the Old Testament Sacrifices did, or the Old Testament Holy Days did. To think they still are valid is a serious error in understanding the "shadow" nature of the seventh day Sabbath. It looked forward to Christ! Why would God then continue to prophesy of a Jewish Sabbath that he already fulfilled in His Son? LOL! It makes no sense. It's like those claiming He prophesies of a rebuilding the temple. No He didn't, He is the foundation stone of the rebuilding. It had nothing to do with a pile of bricks or physical stones in Jerusalem! Or of a re-institution of animal sacrifices! No, that would be a rejection of Christ and confusion of the nature of prophecy. Because He has FULFILLED all those things AT THE CROSS! That's what the AD 70 crowd cannot seem to get straight. The types or shadows [skia] were finished or completed, not in AD 70, but when Christ died.

In this light, the instruction to pray that “your flight will not be in winter or on the Sabbath” is NOT about preserving an ongoing Jewish calendar obligation. Rather, it highlights urgency—that salvation and the sealing of the elect occur before the closing of that redemptive window. Revelation 7:1–4 depicts the sealing of God’s people before the unfolding of final judgment.


Thus, “those days” refer to the climactic period following the completion of the Church’s testimony through the Two Witnesses, and the subsequent “little season” of Satan’s activity after the redemptive work has reached its ordained fullness. For example:

Rev 11:7-8
(7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(8) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Rev 20:3
(3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

After God has completed the sealing of all His elect, Satan is released for a “little season.” During this final period, spiritual warfare intensifies as the beastly power is manifested through multitudes of false prophets and false christs. Their aim is to oppose the true testimony, suppress it, and “overcome” it in the sense of silencing the witness of God’s people in the Church!

At that point, in God's eyes, the Church’s testimony is complete—“they have finished their testimony”—and the work of proclamation reaches its ordained end. This is the moment of rest from labor, as the witness is no longer ongoing in the same sense.

This “little season” marks the climactic escalation of tribulation, described as more intense than any preceding period in history. It represents the final concentrated opposition against the truth before the consummation of all things.

Therefore, this has nothing to do with your precious 70AD and 1st century interpretation nonsense. This is not what Christ talked about because you lacks spiritual ears.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Yes, I read your whole post, including your additional arguments beyond casualty counts and Josephus.

But even taking those broader factors into account, your conclusion still does not hold up. Nothing you presented demonstrates that the events in first-century Judea constitute the worst time in world history in any objective or consistent sense of the language being used. That claim goes far beyond what the evidence can reasonably support.

You can argue intensity, significance, or theological meaning—but “worse than ever before or ever again” is a categorical statement, and what you’ve cited does not justify that level of absolute comparison.
Jesus did not talk about great tribulation that would be "worse than ever before or ever again". Read what He actually said instead of what you imagine that He said. He said there would be great tribulation unlike any that ever had been before or ever would be again (such as not has been or ever will be). The phrase "such as has not been" does not mean "worse".

Matthew 24:21 (NKJV): 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:21 (TribulationSigns Version): For then shall be great tribulation worse than there's ever been since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Did you read my whole post? I gave other reasons besides how many died and what Josephus said and even said that it wasn't about how many were killed what makes it the worst time in history.

History proves the true meaning of biblical prophecy and the fact that destruction of Jerusalem happened when Jesus said that it would happen shows the truth.

If Matthew 24 is about the whole world then how come verse 20 says

"20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath."?

Why would that matter to the whole world? Why would the world care about the Sabbath?

Obviously, it is about the Jews
Right. There is absolutely no indication whatsoever that Jesus was not speaking literally there. When He wanted to speak figuratively or non-literally in the Olivet Discourse, He told parables. Matthew 24:15-22 is not a parable.
 
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Marty fox

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Yes, I read your whole post, including your additional arguments beyond casualty counts and Josephus.

But even taking those broader factors into account, your conclusion still does not hold up. Nothing you presented demonstrates that the events in first-century Judea constitute the worst time in world history in any objective or consistent sense of the language being used. That claim goes far beyond what the evidence can reasonably support.

You can argue intensity, significance, or theological meaning—but “worse than ever before or ever again” is a categorical statement, and what you’ve cited does not justify that level of absolute comparison.




Sorry, that’s not correct!


History doesn’t “prove” a particular interpretation of biblical prophecy in the way you’re claiming. You can try with data points, but the MEANING of prophecy is still an interpretive question.


Also, pointing to the destruction of Jerusalem and saying it automatically confirms a specific prophetic framework is a conclusion, not a fact. You still have to demonstrate that the text is actually referring to that event in the way you assume—something you haven’t established.



No it is not for the Jews in the first century as you think! Clearly you do not even understand what winter and sabbath the Lord really talked about.

It is for the New Testament during the little season of Satan loosening, prior to the Second Coming. Here is a spiritual education for you that concerns the CHURCH!

Winter in scripture is the time of hardship, deprivation and storms where there is a lack of stores in the field. It is a time when all the harvest is done and there can be no more increase. A time when the work in the field has ended. Like the Sabbath, it signifies a time of rest, when the earth rests from its work.

And I also think that (Like the Sabbath in Matthew) it also symbolizes a time when salvation has ended on earth and there can be no more work in the field. It is because Christ has secured all Elect through the testimony of Two Witnesses that you need to read Revelation 7:1-4. After this will be no more fruits of the field to harvest. It is the time when no man can work to bring an increase. Selah!

Song of Solomon 2:11
  • "For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;"
Here God is illustrating that the rain of the winter storms is past. The time of privation and hardship is gone, and with summer comes flowers and new life. But winter preceding it is illustrated as tempest, storm, trouble, a time when life is dorment. That's why I believe Matthew 24 warns, "pray our flight be not in winter."

Jeremiah 8:20
  • "The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved."
This is what it is talking about. A period when time has run out for man to be delivered or saved. Pray that man's flight from Judea is NOT at a time when salvation has ended and no man can work. Because if we are not saved then (Revelation 7:3), we will be under judgement and wrath of God. Selah!
Pray that your flight not be on the Sabbath is NOT directed to the first century Jews, but to the New Testament Church AFTER our working with the great commission is over. The Church should pray it's flight is not on the Sabbath (day of rest). For the sabbath is a day when no man can work because the Church's testimony is finished (Revelation 11:7). A day that Christ foretold when the candle would be put out, and sacrifice and offering would cease. Do you realize this?

John 9:4-5
  • "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
  • As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

This is a Sabbath day, when all work ceases. Selah!

To think that Christ was prophesying about a Old Testament day, which He fulfilled by going to the cross, as a coming future event, is confusion. Christ came as our Sabbath of rest. When He died, the Old Testament Sabbath had no more significant anymore than the Old Testament Sacrifices did, or the Old Testament Holy Days did. To think they still are valid is a serious error in understanding the "shadow" nature of the seventh day Sabbath. It looked forward to Christ! Why would God then continue to prophesy of a Jewish Sabbath that he already fulfilled in His Son? LOL! It makes no sense. It's like those claiming He prophesies of a rebuilding the temple. No He didn't, He is the foundation stone of the rebuilding. It had nothing to do with a pile of bricks or physical stones in Jerusalem! Or of a re-institution of animal sacrifices! No, that would be a rejection of Christ and confusion of the nature of prophecy. Because He has FULFILLED all those things AT THE CROSS! That's what the AD 70 crowd cannot seem to get straight. The types or shadows [skia] were finished or completed, not in AD 70, but when Christ died.

In this light, the instruction to pray that “your flight will not be in winter or on the Sabbath” is NOT about preserving an ongoing Jewish calendar obligation. Rather, it highlights urgency—that salvation and the sealing of the elect occur before the closing of that redemptive window. Revelation 7:1–4 depicts the sealing of God’s people before the unfolding of final judgment.


Thus, “those days” refer to the climactic period following the completion of the Church’s testimony through the Two Witnesses, and the subsequent “little season” of Satan’s activity after the redemptive work has reached its ordained fullness. For example:

Rev 11:7-8
(7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(8) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Rev 20:3
(3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

After God has completed the sealing of all His elect, Satan is released for a “little season.” During this final period, spiritual warfare intensifies as the beastly power is manifested through multitudes of false prophets and false christs. Their aim is to oppose the true testimony, suppress it, and “overcome” it in the sense of silencing the witness of God’s people in the Church!

At that point, in God's eyes, the Church’s testimony is complete—“they have finished their testimony”—and the work of proclamation reaches its ordained end. This is the moment of rest from labor, as the witness is no longer ongoing in the same sense.

This “little season” marks the climactic escalation of tribulation, described as more intense than any preceding period in history. It represents the final concentrated opposition against the truth before the consummation of all things.

Therefore, this has nothing to do with your precious 70AD and 1st century interpretation nonsense. This is not what Christ talked about because you lacks spiritual ears.

Yet Jerusalem was destroyed when Jesus said that Jerusalem would be destroyed, I'll stick with that.

By the way the city gate would be locked closed every Sabbath in biblical times in Jerusalem.
 

TribulationSigns

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Yet Jerusalem was destroyed when Jesus said that Jerusalem would be destroyed, I'll stick with that.

By the way the city gate would be locked closed every Sabbath in biblical times in Jerusalem.

So your argument is basically: Jerusalem was destroyed, therefore Jesus must have been referring to that specific event in the exact way you interpret it—and that settles it for you?

Ahem…that’s not really “proof,” it’s just reading your conclusion back into the text and calling it confirmation.

And the comment about Sabbath gates being locked in ancient Jerusalem doesn’t actually bridge the gap between the prophecy and your interpretation. It doesn’t validate the larger claim you’re trying to build from.

In other words, the conclusion is doing most of the work in your argument—not the evidence.

The way I see it, you got the wrong Jews, wrong Jerusalem, wrong Temple, wrong Judea, wrong mother with child, and wrong army.
 
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ewq1938

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Again, why can't some of these be Jesus as Jesus is also God


I think the first coming being his first might be the reason. When i read of God walking in the garden I think of the Father.
 

Marty fox

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So your argument is basically: Jerusalem was destroyed, therefore Jesus must have been referring to that specific event in the exact way you interpret it—and that settles it for you?

Ahem…that’s not really “proof,” it’s just reading your conclusion back into the text and calling it confirmation.

And the comment about Sabbath gates being locked in ancient Jerusalem doesn’t actually bridge the gap between the prophecy and your interpretation. It doesn’t validate the larger claim you’re trying to build from.

In other words, the conclusion is doing most of the work in your argument—not the evidence.

The way I see it, you got the wrong Jews, wrong Jerusalem, wrong Temple, wrong Judea, wrong mother with child, and wrong army.
No, my argument is that Jesus predicted that Jerusalem would be destroyed and when that would happen and it happened when Jesus said that it would happen, what else do I need?

I don’t get it, this is the type of conversation I thought I would have trying to prove to someone that Jesus was God
 
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PeterAndroz

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The day of the Lord is the same day of the rapture (our being gathered and caught up to Christ).

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
Where does Paul mention ANGELS do the gathering ?
All I see is :-
1 Cor 15:52.. in the twinkling of an eye,...
1 Thes 4:17 ...caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: ..
 

TribulationSigns

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No, my argument is that Jesus predicted that Jerusalem would be destroyed and when that would happen and it happened when Jesus said that it would happen, what else do I need?

I don’t get it, this is the type of conversation I thought I would have trying to prove to someone that Jesus was God

You keep repeating that Jerusalem was destroyed when Jesus said it would be, but that assumes the very thing I'm disputing—that Jesus was talking about physical Jerusalem and the physical temple.

I don't believe Jesus was.

Throughout the New Testament, Christ shifts the focus away from earthly, physical things and toward their spiritual fulfillment. The temple becomes His Church, the body of His people. The true Jews are those circumcised in heart. The Jerusalem that matters is the heavenly Jerusalem. The house of God is the New Testament congregation.

The problem is that you're reading the Olivet Discourse through the lens of Josephus. You see a physical city destroyed in 70 AD and then work backward to make Christ's words fit that event.

I do the opposite. I start with Christ and the apostles. How did they define the temple? How did they define Israel? How did they define Jerusalem? How did they define the stones of the temple/building that was fallen down and rebuilt in three days? How did they define the woman with a child? They consistently point to spiritual realities fulfilled in Christ and His Church.

So when you say, "Jesus predicted Jerusalem would be destroyed and it happened," my response is that you've already assumed your conclusion. You have not demonstrated that the physical city of Jerusalem was the subject of the prophecy in the first place.

The debate isn't whether Jesus accurately foretold something. The debate is whether you are interpreting His words according to the New Testament or according to Josephus.

I choose Christ's interpretation over Josephus' any day!
 
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ewq1938

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PeterAndroz

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Christ spoke of the same gathering Paul did but mentioned angels are involved.
The "same gathering " ?
The Matt 24:31 the POST GREAT-TRIB angels gathering the ELECT is the SAME EVENT as B4 GREAT-TRIB twinkle of an eye into the clouds that Paul taught in 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Thes 4:17 ?
Where does Paul teach the Angels are responsible for the gathering into the clouds in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye ?
Verses please :)
 

ewq1938

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The "same gathering " ?
The Matt 24:31 the POST GREAT-TRIB angels gathering the ELECT is the SAME EVENT as B4 GREAT-TRIB twinkle of an eye into the clouds that Paul taught in 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Thes 4:17 ?

There is one gathering and it is post-trib.


Where does Paul teach the Angels are responsible for the gathering into the clouds in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye ?
Verses please :)

Jesus taught Paul and Jesus said angels are used in the gathering.
 

Marty fox

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You keep repeating that Jerusalem was destroyed when Jesus said it would be, but that assumes the very thing I'm disputing—that Jesus was talking about physical Jerusalem and the physical temple.

I don't believe Jesus was.

Throughout the New Testament, Christ shifts the focus away from earthly, physical things and toward their spiritual fulfillment. The temple becomes His Church, the body of His people. The true Jews are those circumcised in heart. The Jerusalem that matters is the heavenly Jerusalem. The house of God is the New Testament congregation.

The problem is that you're reading the Olivet Discourse through the lens of Josephus. You see a physical city destroyed in 70 AD and then work backward to make Christ's words fit that event.

I do the opposite. I start with Christ and the apostles. How did they define the temple? How did they define Israel? How did they define Jerusalem? How did they define the stones of the temple/building that was fallen down and rebuilt in three days? How did they define the woman with a child? They consistently point to spiritual realities fulfilled in Christ and His Church.

So when you say, "Jesus predicted Jerusalem would be destroyed and it happened," my response is that you've already assumed your conclusion. You have not demonstrated that the physical city of Jerusalem was the subject of the prophecy in the first place.

The debate isn't whether Jesus accurately foretold something. The debate is whether you are interpreting His words according to the New Testament or according to Josephus.

I choose Christ's interpretation over Josephus' any day!
Matthew 23:37-Mathew 24:3

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

24 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

So Jesus isn’t talking about the literal city of Jerusalem here?

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

So the Jerusalem here is the church?

34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place

And the fact that Jerusalem was destroyed within that generation proves my view that’s why I come to this conclusion not because of Josephus

Yes we the church are the new temple and the true new Jerusalem but Jesus also talked about the literal temple and Jerusalem at times because they were still standing when Jesus was on the earth.

The literal temple and Jerusalem were removed because they were obsolete and the Jews kept worshiping them which was a rejection of Christ and His sacrifice

Luke 19
41 And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, 42 saying, “Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side 44 and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Jesus here was talking about the literal city and the people who would actually see the destruction in their lifetime
 

TribulationSigns

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Matthew 23:37-Mathew 24:3

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

24 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

Time out. You are assuming that every reference to Jerusalem, the temple, and stones must be interpreted literally, even though the New Testament repeatedly redefines these things spiritually in Christ.

For example, in Matthew 23:37-39, Christ is not merely lamenting a geographical city. He is pronouncing judgment upon HIS PEOPLE, the Old Testament congregation, that had rejected its Messiah. "Your house is left unto you desolate" is covenantal language!!! The house of God was being abandoned because the leadership and the unbelieving children of Israel had rejected Christ. The focus is not stones and mortar but the desolation of the covenant community that stood in opposition to Him.

Likewise, in Matthew 24, you assume that because the disciples pointed to physical stones, Christ must therefore have been prophesying the demolition of physical stones in 70 AD. Really!?!? But throughout Scripture, stones frequently represent people. Don't you realize that God's house is built of living stones. The temple of God is His people. First the Jews, then the Gentiles! Christ's concern was NEVER architecture. The true temple was already being transferred from the old covenant order to the New Testament congregation. The Old Testament congregation fell to make the way for the New Testament congregation to be rebuilt... and guess what with what stones. You figure it out by study with your own Bible.

You also keep appealing to Matthew 24:34 as if "this generation" must mean around forty years. Yet just a few verses earlier, in Matthew 23:35-36, Christ speaks of a evil generation stretching from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah. That is not a forty-year period. It is the continuing generation of unbelief and rebellion that began with Cain and continues until all God's purposes are fulfilled.

The "generation" under judgment is not merely a first-century demographic group. It is the seed of unbelief that opposes God throughout history. That generation will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled, and all things clearly were certainly not fulfilled in 70 AD. Christ did not return. The resurrection did not occur. Death was not abolished. The new heavens and new earth did not arrive. :rolleyes:

Your interpretation begins with the assumption that the Olivet Discourse is about 70 AD and then forces every verse into that framework. Big Mistake. Mine begins with the New Testament's own definitions of Jerusalem, Israel, the temple, and God's people.

You see physical stones and a physical city. I see Christ announcing the judgment and passing away of the Old Testament congregation and the establishment of His New Testament Kingdom. That transition began in Christ's earthly ministry—not in 70 AD—and it reaches its consummation only at His Second Coming.

Let them with ears let him hear! Selah!
 
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