The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14

[Spiritual Israelite]

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
Where does Paul mention ANGELS do the gathering ?
All I see is :-
1 Cor 15:52.. in the twinkling of an eye,...
1 Thes 4:17 ...caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: ..

This is what is called an argument from silence. Do you expect that every passage that refers to the second coming of Christ has to contain all of the details about that event? That's not a reasonable expectation. Using that type of argument, someone could argue that passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and Revelation 19:11-21 refer to five different comings of Christ since each of them contain details not found in the others.

 

[TribulationSigns]

IMO with biblical examples Christ forewarned His disciples of the impending destruction of Jerusalem, the temple and buildings that they would not come under the judgment of God with apostate Israel.

I see, but I am sorry, the physical destruction for Jerusalem/temple in 70 was NOT what Christ talked about. Allow me to explain again what Zechariah 14 was talking about. Please read entire chapter then read my message below:

Christ did come to earth literally and He did plant His feet very literally upon the mount of Olives. Yes.

However, Zechariah is more concerned with His coming to Earth Spiritually, and planting His feet on Mount Zion in judgment. And the mountain did remove, and the remnant of the people did flee, and the valley was their path to freedom. Who was that remnant? They are Christ's disciples, and all Jewish believers. It was the escape of the remnant of God's people from His executed judgments upon the enemies in Jerusalem. For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion. The zeal of the LORD of hosts has done this.

Matthew 26:30-32

• "And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
• Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
• But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee."

A literal precursor of the Spiritual judgment of Christ that the remnant may escape. What judgment? It is a judgment of Old Testament congregation, the people there as, God leaves them desolate and takes the Kingdom from them. This is why the mountain signifies Kingdom, which was the congregation of Israel that time. The cleaving of the mountain to east and west so that God's remnant may escape His judgment of Israel, spiritually speaking!
Please understand that Zecharish 14 is a SPIRITUAL BOOK, not a seismologist's ledger. God is not interested in splitting literal mountains, except to make a point about the cleaving (judgment) of the Kingdom so that a way be made for the Remnant to escape through the valley from the Old to the New Congregation!
Zechariah 14:4

• "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

Matthew 17:20

• "And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

Casting out devils is associated with Matthew 17 because it is a kingdom He Christ spoiled! And he bound Satan so that He might free the captivity of Israel! It is the faith of Christ that moves THIS mountain, and the mountain in view is not a physical mountain, but a spiritual one. Mountains in God's word represent Kingdoms. And the kingdom that was removed by the faith of Christ was the one that suffered violence, and that the violent took by force, remember? This kingdom was split in two, making a valley that a way could be made for the remnant to escape, spiritually speaking! The destruction of the kingdom (mountain) cast ito the sea creates a valley that God's people therein might escape. This was fulfilled in Christ Jesus by His Faithfulness and His cross. Not 70AD!

So "THAT DAY" encompasses the WHOLE appearance and passion of Christ. The day of the Lord is both a day of Salvation and of Judgment. A valley for the remnant and a desolation for the wicked.

Mark 11:1-2

• "And when they came nigh to Jerusalem, unto Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount of Olives, he sendeth forth two of his disciples,
• And saith unto them, Go your way into the village over against you: and as soon as ye be entered into it, ye shall find a colt tied, whereon never man sat; loose him, and bring him."

Christ came to and stood on the mount of Olives both literally and Spiritual. He began his triumphant entry into Jerusalem as King from the Mount of Olives. No insignificant things. And it was twofold. To be the "Suffering Servant" and to ultimately be rejected because the people wanted a Physical/literal King, rather than the Spiritual King He was. For example, he came to Jerusalem as a King, but they (Jews - HIS OWN PEOPLE) rejected Him. Even so, the stone the builders rejected has become the head of the corner. Thus, even though the mountain was divided (the Kingdom didn't stand), its power and rule taken away from Israel, the great valley was for the remnant that escaped.

All of these took place at the Cross. Not 70AD.

 

[MatthewG]

Earburner,

From Co-pilot;

I appreciate the thought you’ve put into this, but I think the “conundrum” only appears because you’re trying to make Zechariah 14 operate on two different Jerusalems at once. From an Amillennial perspective, the chapter becomes far more coherent when we keep the focus on the Jerusalem that actually survives judgment — the Heavenly one, not the earthly city that was destroyed in AD 70 just as Jesus said it would be.

Zech. 14:11 says Jerusalem will be “safely inhabited.” That cannot be the earthly Jerusalem, because the earthly city was repeatedly judged, destroyed, and trampled underfoot (Luke 21:24). There is nothing “safe” about the earthly Jerusalem in the first century or now.

But the New Testament already tells us which Jerusalem is safe:

• Galatians 4:26 — “the Jerusalem above is free, and she is the mother of us all.”
• Hebrews 12:22 — believers have already come to Mount Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem.
• Revelation 21–22 — the only Jerusalem that is never destroyed again is the New Jerusalem.

So Zechariah 14:11 fits perfectly with the New Covenant reality: the people of God — the heavenly Jerusalem — are the ones who dwell securely.

The chapter uses Old Covenant imagery to describe New Covenant realities, the same way the prophets often did. The language is symbolic of covenant victory, not geopolitical safety.

As for Zechariah 14 being “ongoing,” I’d frame it this way: The transition between the Old Covenant order and the New Covenant order culminated in AD 70, but the reign of Christ and the security of His people continues until His final appearing (2 Thess. 1:7–10). That’s not a conundrum — it’s the consistent pattern of prophetic fulfillment.

So to answer your question directly:

Zech. 14:11 is about the Heavenly Jerusalem — the covenant community of Christ — the only Jerusalem that truly is and will forever be “safely inhabited.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

:::Jesus taught Paul and Jesus said angels are used in the gathering.
Then list the verses from Paul that teach Angels do the GATHERING in 1 Cor 15:52 & 1 Thes 4:16-17

Do you believe that Matthew 24:30-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 refer to the same event?

 

[PeterAndroz]

Do you believe that Matthew 24:30-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 refer to the same event?

I don't see the verses that teach angels gather the ELECT as in Matt 24:31
Do you ?
.................
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[PeterAndroz]

That's called an Argument from Silence fallacy. Jesus taught it not Paul.

Then list the verses from Paul that teach Angels do the GATHERING in 1 Cor 15:52 & 1 Thes 4:16-17
and the verses that teach ANGELS did the gathering are ? :)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes of course, Christ put an end to it, but the physical act of sacrifices was still being carried out, what can't you get about that? And that actually happened the temple was destroyed that stopped it.


That's why God destroyed the temple so that they could finally see there was no need for it and that God didn't require it anymore

Luke 19
41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.

Hebrews 10
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again, and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

Hebrews 8
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Right. I can understand what you're saying even if they can't. All you're saying is that you agree that the old covenant law with its animal sacrifices was made obsolete at the same time that Jesus established the new covenant with His blood. But, the Jews foolishly continued the old covenant sacrifices after that and God gave them some time to repent of that before He had enough of their rebellion and then destroyed their precious temple that Jesus had already rendered spiritually obsolete to them almost 40 years prior to that (Matthew 23:37-38).

What happened then is an example to everyone that while God is very patient with people, He does not have infinite patience with people's rebellion. What happened in 70 AD will happen in a similar way globally in the future when Jesus returns. Events like what happened in 70 AD show that God only tolerates rebellion for so long before taking His wrath out on people.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't see the verses that teach angels gather the ELECT as in Matt 24:31
Do you ?
.................
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Why is that necessary in order for them to be the same event? Are you then saying that you think 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Matthew 24:30-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 are three completely separate events?

How can you not understand that each time the second coming of Christ is mentioned in a passage of scripture there is no requirement that all of the details related to it need to be included in the passage?

Do you think that Acts 1:11 describes a different coming of Christ than 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 because it doesn't mention anyone being caught up to Him when He comes back from heaven in the same manner as He ascended there?

Do you think the following two passages refer to the same event?

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

:::Jesus taught Paul and Jesus said angels are used in the gathering.
Then list the verses from Paul that teach Angels do the GATHERING in 1 Cor 15:52 & 1 Thes 4:16-17

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

There is no mention of angels doing any gathering in the above passage and there is no mention of anyone being changed in 1 Thess 4:16-17. So, how do you conclude that 1 Corinthians 15:52 relates directly to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

 

[PeterAndroz]

Why is that necessary in order for them to be the same event? Are you then saying that you think 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Matthew 24:30-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 are three completely separate events?

How can you not understand that each time the second coming of Christ is mentioned in a passage of scripture there is no requirement that all of the details related to it need to be included in the passage?

Do you think that Acts 1:11 describes a different coming of Christ than 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 because it doesn't mention anyone being caught up to Him when He comes back from heaven in the same manner as He ascended there?

Where does Paul teach that in 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Thes 4:17 that angels are involved as in the Matt 24:31 gathering ?

 

[PeterAndroz]

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

There is no mention of angels doing any gathering in the above passage and there is no mention of anyone being changed in 1 Thess 4:16-17. So, how do you conclude that 1 Corinthians 15:52 relates directly to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

Good at least now you are seeing that Matt 24:31 is not the event in 1 Cor 15:52 & 1 Thess 4:17 :)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where does Paul teach that in 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Thes 4:17 that angels are involved as in the Matt 24:31 gathering ?

You can't be serious. That's your takeaway from what I said in post #588? Please answer the questions I asked in that post instead of just asking a silly question in response.

 

[Marty fox]

Right. I can understand what you're saying even if they can't. All you're saying is that you agree that the old covenant law with its animal sacrifices was made obsolete at the same time that Jesus established the new covenant with His blood. But, the Jews foolishly continued the old covenant sacrifices after that and God gave them some time to repent of that before He had enough of their rebellion and then destroyed their precious temple that Jesus had already rendered spiritually obsolete to them almost 40 years prior to that (Matthew 23:37-38).

What happened then is an example to everyone that while God is very patient with people, He does not have infinite patience with people's rebellion. What happened in 70 AD will happen in a similar way globally in the future when Jesus returns. Events like what happened in 70 AD show that God only tolerates rebellion for so long before taking His wrath out on people.

Yes thanks it’s really that easy I can’t explain it anymore to them and I can’t understand why they can’t grasp what I’m saying

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Good at least now you are seeing that Matt 24:31 is not the event in 1 Cor 15:52 & 1 Thess 4:17 :)

LOL. You are apparently just playing games here. You're on the wrong forum for that. This forum is for adults to discuss eschatology. You are being completely evasive and not answering my questions or addressing my points. Tell me how you conclude that 1 Corinthians 5:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 are about the same event? I agree that they are, but why do you deny that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is the same event as Matthew 24:30-31 because of the angels not being specifically mentioned in the former passage, but you somehow conclude that 1 Thess 4:14-17 is the same event as 1 Cor 15:51-54 despite no mention of anyone being gathered to meet Christ in the air in the latter passage. You're not consistent with the rules you use to determine if two verses or passages are related to each other.

 

[Marty fox]

As I've already said Marty, destroying the Old Jewish temple did not prevent apostate unbelieving Jews from observing as many of the Old Covenant Laws possible without the temple. Still today Jews in unbelief continue to keep many of the Old Laws while still waiting for the promised Messiah to come.

Yes of course, but don’t you think that them seeing that God removed it from them made them think what they did wrong? Why He did tha?

Don,t you think that may of made some of them realize that Jesus was their God and Messiah?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes thanks it’s really that easy I can’t explain it anymore to them and I can’t understand why they can’t grasp what I’m saying

Probably partly because of their poor reading comprehension skills (as evidenced by the fact that they misrepresent what others believe repeatedly) and partly because some partial preterists claim that the old covenant was still in effect in 70 AD and didn't end until then, so they think all partial preterists believe that just because they've seen a partial preterist claim that before.

 

[PeterAndroz]

You can't be serious. That's your takeaway from what I said in post #588? Please answer the questions I asked in that post instead of just asking a silly question in response.

In 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Thess 4 :17 Paul does not teach that angels are involved, nor does Paul teach that the RAPTURED are the elect spoken of in Matt 24:31.
If you believe otherwise, list the verses and not "SILLY" OPINIONS :)

 

[PeterAndroz]

LOL. You are apparently just playing games here. You're on the wrong forum for that. This forum is for adults to discuss eschatology. You are being completely evasive and not answering my questions or addressing my points. Tell me how you conclude that 1 Corinthians 5:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 are about the same event? I agree that they are, but why do you deny that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is the same event as Matthew 24:30-31 because of the angels not being specifically mentioned in the former passage, but you somehow conclude that 1 Thess 4:14-17 is the same event as 1 Cor 15:51-54 despite no mention of anyone being gathered to meet Christ in the air in the latter passage. You're not consistent with the rules you use to determine if two verses or passages are related to each other.

Your opinions are not Scripture
List the verses and keep your compliments to yourself or p/o :)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Thess 4 :17 Paul does not teach that angels are involved, nor does Paul teach that the RAPTURED are the elect spoken of in Matt 24:31.

Where does Paul teach that anyone will be gathered to meet Christ in the air in 1 Corinthians 15:52? Nowhere. Yet, you can still discern that the verse relates to 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Why do you not use similar logic when comparing those two verses as you do when comparing 1 Thess 4:17 to Matthew 24:31? In the case of 1 Thess 4:17 and Matthew 24:31 you deny that they are referring to the same passage just because they don't contain the same exact details. Neither do 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, but you still relate them directly together. Why is your approach to interpreting scripture so inconsistent?

 

[PeterAndroz]

Where does Paul teach that anyone will be gathered to meet Christ in the air in 1 Corinthians 15:52? Nowhere. Yet, you can still discern that the verse relates to 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Why do you not use similar logic when comparing those two verses as you do when comparing 1 Thess 4:17 to Matthew 24:31? In the case of 1 Thess 4:17 and Matthew 24:31 you deny that they are referring to the same passage just because they don't contain the same exact details. Neither do 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, but you still relate them directly together. Why is your approach to interpreting scripture so inconsistent?

and the verses that teach the ELECT in Matt 24:31 are those mentioned in 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Thes 4:17 are ?