Lambano
Well-Known Member
The best way to survive a train wreck is to not be on the train when it happens.
The corner
- Thread starter Matthias
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
Perhaps we can add Subordinationism to the poll, since at least two of the written responses advocated the subordinationist view, in contrast to both the Trinitarian and traditional Jewish monotheism views. Or maybe that's for another day.
Hey, at least you got me reading up on it.
Hey, at least you got me reading up on it.
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For centuries the ancient Romans called Jewish monotheists atheists. I’m seldom called an atheist today by trinitarians for not believing in the existence of the Trinity (beyond a theological construct) but I have been. An argument for true dichotomy, albeit a weak one.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Judaism is blind still, with many doctrines, beliefs and practices obsolete and at best blurry. Most of them did not get Jesus, Who is the way the truth and the life. He is the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. So unbelieving Jews are told to go stand in the corner and turn around - unable to see what's going on, Like a teacher tells a naughty little boy to
go stand in the corner and turn around, the unbelieving Jews are unable to grasp reality, even the nature of God. Even after their conversion to Christ, they still struggle and cling to their old ways of thinking.
The Trinity and Jewish monotheism: a false dichotomy or a true dichotomy?
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
The Trinity and monotheism is not a dichotomy. The Jews always had a blurry and incomplete view of God until Christ came.
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I addressed that in the OP and agreed that it isn’t.
Jewish monotheism is unitary (only one person; the Father), not trinitary (three persons; Father, Son and Holy Spirit). With that in mind,
The Trinity and Jewish monotheism: a false dichotomy or a true dichotomy?
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Jesus is the pre-incarnate Great I AM (Ex. 3:14). He introduced Himself back then to Moses and filled in the blanks when He became flesh and dwelt among us:
I am the way, the truth and the life ...
I am the Good Shepherd ...
I am the Bread of Life ...
I am the Resurrection ...
I am the Door ...
I am the Vine ...
I am the Alpha and Omega ...
You really don't understand the depth of those statements. He is LIFE ( physical and spiritual). He is the Creator ( Col 1:16-17). He could not make thise claims nor draw attention to Himself by making these statements unless He was God.
" I and the Father are ONE.
All things in heaven and on earth are under His authority. How can anyone have that omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence required to handle that unless they were God.
You have to distort the meaning of all those verses, and as you do so, dishonor and disgrace Christ.
And the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father and Jesus sent to live in us ..."another Helper", distinct from the Father and Son, Whobis also omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. Watch out, don't blaspheme Him and say something stupid.
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I don't want to get into a debate on the Trinity but in terms of the source of the Life we are under no illusion!
The source of Life and its access is clearly taught here:
As David wrote, “He asked life of You (God), and You (God) gave it to him—length of days forever and ever” (Psalm 21:4).
Jesus affirmed, “The Father has granted the Son to have life in Himself” (John 5:26).
Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life” (John 6:35) and, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father (for Life) except through me” (John 14:6).
If you are worthy (and I) to be granted life and access to the Sole Giver of Life we must need go through Christ, by faith.
We, including Christ, will have received their life from God, we do not possess it inherently or independently!!!
So:
- God has life inherently (by nature, self-existing).
- Angels and Christ (in his glorified state) have life derivatively—granted to them by the Father.
So all this reply is proving is the Apostles understood that God Alone is in possession of Immortality or LIFE as you have stated above
The question asked in this thread is whether or not the Trinity and Jewish monotheism is a false dichotomy or a true dichotomy.
That’s it. Simple and straightforward. The options are offered in the poll.
As a member who is registered “Christian” you’re prohibited by the rules from getting into a debate on the Trinity with other members who are registered “Christian”. What you don’t want matches with what the rules say you can’t get. That’s a blessing.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
In John 5:26, Jesus is just teaching that He and the Father are ONE, that He does all that the Father does. Now how could any created being, lesser than the Father do ALL that the Father does unless He is God and equal?
:For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 6:21-23
Clearly we are told to equally honor Jesus as we honor the Father!
All throughout Christianity, there have been millions of Christian theologians/priests/ Pastors and at present 97+% of the Body ( 2.7 billion) believe that Jesus is God and are Trinitarian. Now, mere logic would suggest that if we were wrong about this very crucial belief - the TRUTH, would not the Holy Spirit teach us otherwise, guide us and lead us away from false beliefs about Christ? The Holy Spirit gives us discernment. Likely you don't posses the Holy Spirit, otherwise He would lead you into all truth!
You do not honor the Son as you honor the Father to your detriment.Not to say He won 't save you, but you'll just lack understanding and God won't use you as He would otherwise to spread the Truth. In essence, the theology you strenuously push, goes out void ... or ar best, to 2-3%.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
I thought that rule was repealed?
Anyway, if you create a dichotomy but both of the options boil down to "monotheism" then I don't think you actually have a dichotomy. So, yes - they do seem to be standing in the same corner.
Well, it depends on your definition of monotheism. There should be one clear and well understood only 'one' God theology. Are these two views under study mean the exact same monotheism?
I don’t think so. I observed a moderator enforcing it one day ago. (I provided a link to that action in this thread.) If it has been repealed then it either was done without the moderator’s knowledge or has happened in the last 24 hours.
Thanks. I welcome and encourage you to record your view in the poll.
Would you also place Islam in the same corner?
P.S.
I just remembered that I also introduced pagan monotheism into the discussion earlier in the thread. (See post #16.) Would you also place pagan monotheism in the same corner? (Make way for Amun-Re. Is there room or no room for him in your corner?)
Do the options really boil down to monotheism?
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The answer to your question is found in the Messiah’s own Jewish monotheism.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
That's an interesting question. I don't think it's the same question that was asked before, though.
"Corner" is an interesting choice of words. If we are creating a room with option in each corner, I envision the first question's room as containing options like:
(a) monotheism
(b) polytheism
(c) monaltrism (there are many gods, but only one is worshiped, often in opposition to the others)
(d) emanationism (there are many gods, but ultimately all are aspect of a single greatest God)
From that paradigm, they are the same option (monotheism).
If you want to make a second room that's all different flavors of monotheism, then Judaism, Islam, and Zoroastrianism will all be in separate corners. I still don't think I'd put Christianity (Trinitarian or otherwise) in a separate corner from Judaism. I understand Christianity to BE A SECT of Judaism.
Christianity began as a sect of Judaism because the monotheism of Judaism is the original monotheism of Christianity. The church later cast out the Jewish monotheism of its founder; destroyed it and labelled it heresy. We know this from trinitarian lips of the 4th century.
There was a time when the only monotheism in Christianity was Jewish monotheism. To be a Christian at that time was to be a Jewish monotheist and nothing but a Jewish monotheist - Jew and gentile alike. I represent that time and that primitive Christianity in the 21st century.
Trinitarianism isn’t, and never was, a sect of Judaism. It is unique to Christianity / the church. Judaism then and now is unitarian.
Monotheism. A generic term.
The Messiah’s own God is the God of Jewish monotheism, not the God of any other form or type of monotheism. That is a constraint of history.
The Trinity and Jewish monotheism is a true dichotomy. To make it a false dichotomy we have to reject the constraints of church history.
There are some (trinitarian and non-trinitarian) who are willing to do that. I’m (obviously) not. Whether one does or doesn’t, it is a matter of conscience.
Monotheism. The devil has made a mess of it, just as he has Christianity and the church.
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
You're basically saying that Christianity just failed/aborted in the 4th century. If I'm putting words in your mouth, please correct me.
I don't think that's the case. There are still so many people who worship God.
I'm not sure "trinitarianism" was ever a sect of anything. As I see it, those proclaiming the Trinity don't seem to be teaching anything coherent. It's more an an acknowledgment that they DON'T UNDERSTAND God, and that they prefer to rely on the traditions of the Church over their own understanding.
Jewish monotheism always strikes me as a strange combination of words.
Moses' God wasn't the only God Israel believed in; just the only one they were allowed to worship. They regarded the gods of the surrounding cities and nations as real, powerful, often hostile and perhaps in conflict with their own God. The commandment doesn't say, "there are no other gods." It says, "You will have no other gods before Me." That's not monotheism; that's monaltrism.
It isn't too different in Jesus' day. The New Testament is credulous of THE devil, as well as demons, often tying them to foreign gods, and casting them in opposition to themselves.
At some point, Judaism and Christianity DID transform from monaltrism to true monotheism. That date is later than you think.
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