The Cross of Jesus is no man's gift

[robert derrick]

My belief actually has an official theological term in Christian circles. It’s called “Initial Salvation and Final Salvation” (Although I have a different label for it and I have known about this truth before learning of the official theological term of it).

#1. Initial Salvation is being saved by God’s grace without works through faith (When we first come to God seeking to be saved).
#2. Final Salvation is simply those who die physically in a righteous state or are in such a spiritual state when the Lord returns. We have to reach a point in our walk with God whereby if we die, we have to be living righteously (if not, we are not going to enter the Kingdom of God).

Amen, you're not OSAS.

However, since you confirm a 'final' salvation in righteousness, then initial vs final salvation becomes a doctrinal distinction without a practical difference. It's like the boosters of a rocket being jettisoned forever after successful lift off, and those initial power boosters no longer matter.

But I want you consider my practical objection to it, and not just doctrinal.

In physical terms, initial salvation by faith alone seems beyond dispute, since there is time between thought and action, even as by instinct, which is the context of your teaching on faith and works of faith:

So while in some cases the good works we do is manifested naturally by our faith, I don’t see this as always being the case. The Parable of the Talents, and Titus 3:14 does not appear that faith will always just automatically lead to works in every occurrence throughout our whole life. We have to decide to cooperate with the good work the Lord desires to do through us

You are therefore seeing a necessary gap of time between inward faith and outward works, which is only natural, but you therefore overlook where our first cooperation and works of faith with Jesus begin, in the spirit:

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Our first works of our first love begin within spiritually. The law of Christ is spiritual first, to cleanse within first. We do that in cooperation with Jesus through His Spirit with divine power to cast down and out any and all of the devil's unrighteous temptations and vain imaginations to sin with the world.

And there is no gap of time allowed for faith alone to save anyone, because Satan immediately comes to destroy it, and so we must immediately fight our spiritual warfare to keep it and do it.

And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Obeying the faith and doing the word of life and righteousness begins immediately within the heart, so that the works of faith are spiritual first, that they may be truly righteous outwardly. The Ephesians were leaving those first works of loving God with all the heart, and becoming Pharisees in outward righteousness only.

Whenever faith is allowed to be alone at anytime, without resisting the devil and his temptation sot lust, then he takes the faith away immediately, and we are lusting for the world and in need of saving deliverance by Christ.

Even as the evil works of the flesh first begin with lusting from the heart, so do the good works of faith first begin with purifying the heart and cleansing the mind. These first works of our spiritual warfare must continually be going on within unto the end, that our outward living may be righteous, holy, and blameless in deed and in truth from a pure heart and continually renewed mind of the Christ.

In your teaching of initial salvation by faith alone and final salvation with works of faith, you are overlooking the spiritual first works of when that faith alone becomes with works: instantly within to begin loving God with all the heart and mind, by our spiritual warfare to refuse every tempting thought of the devil to lust for the flesh and the world.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Amen, you're not OSAS.

However, since you confirm a 'final' salvation in righteousness, then initial vs final salvation becomes a doctrinal distinction without a practical difference. It's like the boosters of a rocket being jettisoned forever after successful lift off, and those initial power boosters no longer matter.

But I want you consider my practical objection to it, and not just doctrinal.

In physical terms, initial salvation by faith alone seems beyond dispute, since there is time between thought and action, even as by instinct, which is the context of your teaching on faith and works of faith:



You are therefore seeing a necessary gap of time between inward faith and outward works, which is only natural, but you therefore overlook where our first cooperation and works of faith with Jesus begin, in the spirit:

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Our first works of our first love begin within spiritually. The law of Christ is spiritual first, to cleanse within first. We do that in cooperation with Jesus through His Spirit with divine power to cast down and out any and all of the devil's unrighteous temptations and vain imaginations to sin with the world.

And there is no gap of time allowed for faith alone to save anyone, because Satan immediately comes to destroy it, and so we must immediately fight our spiritual warfare to keep it and do it.

And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Obeying the faith and doing the word of life and righteousness begins immediately within the heart, so that the works of faith are spiritual first, that they may be truly righteous outwardly. The Ephesians were leaving those first works of loving God with all the heart, and becoming Pharisees in outward righteousness only.

Whenever faith is allowed to be alone at anytime, without resisting the devil and his temptation sot lust, then he takes the faith away immediately, and we are lusting for the world and in need of saving deliverance by Christ.

Even as the evil works of the flesh first begin with lusting from the heart, so do the good works of faith first begin with purifying the heart and cleansing the mind. These first works of our spiritual warfare must continually be going on within unto the end, that our outward living may be righteous, holy, and blameless in deed and in truth from a pure heart and continually renewed mind of the Christ.

In your teaching of initial salvation by faith alone and final salvation with works of faith, you are overlooking the spiritual first works of when that faith alone becomes with works: instantly within to begin loving God with all the heart and mind, by our spiritual warfare to refuse every tempting thought of the devil to lust for the flesh and the world.

Read Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, Acts 15:24.
Then read Galatians 5:2.

Then I would encourage you to read Romans 1-4 and get a feel for these chapters in what Paul is saying overall. Don't try to read these chapters with your current belief system. Just read it for what it says. Derive meaning out of the text here.
Try to really figure out what Paul is saying. Let Paul's words guide you and not your own thoughts.

I would also encourage you to do the same with Ephesians 2.
Does it sound like faith existing only with works, or does it sound like a person coming to the faith first time by a belief in Jesus (vs. the false belief of circumcision to be initially saved). Keep reading these chapters. That's all I can do to encourage you to see where I am coming from. Don't rely on your thoughts, but let God's Word be your guide to what you should think.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Amen, you're not OSAS.

Well, the problem goes beyond OSAS actually.
OSAS is a problem because it justifies sin under God's grace (Although some try to deny this).
There are those who deny OSAS, and yet they also believe you can sin and still be saved.
These are called Free Will Baptists. They believe the only way you can fall away from the faith is by no longer believing or denying Jesus as your Savior. Yet, they believe one can sin and still be saved. So the problem in Christianity at large is Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism (Which naturally leads to one thinking they can sin and still be saved on some level).

I believe in “Temporal Belief Alone Salvationism” in that it only exists when you first accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior. After that point in time, or event, you then continue in the faith and that faith will then eventually manifest in believing certain doctrines and in doing things God commands of us (in the pages of the New Testament). By faith, Noah prepared an ark to the saving of his household (Hebrews 11:7). By faith Noah was doing a lot of work in building the ark. But that's just one aspect of faith. Faith can also be a belief alone, as well. We see in Hebrews 11:3 about how.... “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” (Hebrews 11:3). Understanding how the worlds were framed by the Word of God (i.e. the Living Word, Jesus and or the spoken word in that God spoke and He created all things). This is by a belief alone and not by doing anything. Yet, it is through faith that we have this knowledge or understanding. Faith can be a belief alone. This is what Hebrews 11:3 is saying. To deny this is to deny the verse in what it plainly says.

 

[robert derrick]

Read Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, Acts 15:24.
Then read Galatians 5:2.

Then I would encourage you to read Romans 1-4 and get a feel for these chapters in what Paul is saying overall. Don't try to read these chapters with your current belief system. Just read it for what it says. Derive meaning out of the text here.
Try to really figure out what Paul is saying. Let Paul's words guide you and not your own thoughts.

I would also encourage you to do the same with Ephesians 2.
Does it sound like faith existing only with works, or does it sound like a person coming to the faith first time by a belief in Jesus (vs. the false belief of circumcision to be initially saved). Keep reading these chapters. That's all I can do to encourage you to see where I am coming from. Don't rely on your thoughts, but let God's Word be your guide to what you should think.

You have no comment on our first works being spiritual within, and not beginning outwardly? Really? I had honestly expected from someone like you to make some sort of response to it, even if to disagree. I really didn't expect you to just ignore it altogether. So, I'll not be just hopping on to other Scriptures you suggest, so you can perhaps ignore what I offer there too.

But, I did want to sound you out first, and since you do not preach practical OSAS, then for the sake of Scriptural exercise, let's go ahead and counter the points you've made. You can do the same with me, if you like, in the spirit of saints' fellowship with handshakes all around at the final bell.

I believe James 2:24 is referring to what happens after we are saved initially by God’s grace because that’s the context. James 1, and James 2 is not referring to what happens in our Initial Salvation.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

V14 is the very middle of context in the chapter. Scripture speaks of one faith of our Lord Jesus and one saving faith by Him, not 'initial' vs 'non-initial' saving faith. Acknowledging our spiritual first works of faith, rids us of the natural minded necessity of separating faith from works for at least some kind of temporal timeline.

I believe James 2:24 is referring to what happens after we are saved initially by God’s grace because that’s the context. James 1, and James 2 is not referring to what happens in our Initial Salvation.

I.e. 'what happens' after your initial salvation is your final salvation, which you now must have James 2:14 separate them into 2 distinct and opposing salvations, that you cannot allow to become interchangeable as one and the same salvation of Jesus Christ.

When you make a solid difference between the salvation of Eph 2 with that of James 2, so that they cannot be interchangeable, then you have now produced not just two distance salvations, but they become doctrinally in opposition to one another.

I say the Scripture simply speaks of the faith that saves, as it is written, and you say they cannot be possible, because you must keep your initial salvation of Eph 2 as afar was from having any works at all, whether first works of the spirit, or deeds of the flesh. You thus become an OSAS teacher of a salvation by faith alone, that can never be taught as salvation through faith with works.

 

[robert derrick]

We agree on the secondary aspect of salvation.
Your foundation appears to be all works and there is no grace or rest ever in our faith at any point.

If that were the case, then you wouldn't be agreeing with me on any aspect of salvation, now would you? And so you really don't believe it, but are only resorting to half-hearted shots at a teaching that will not conform to yours.

Both salvation and justification are by grace, which means both the faith and the works of faith are given us by grace, with power to help us to be believe and do His word. That is what the true grace of God is for: to resist the devil and overcome sinning in time of need, which is enduring temptation:

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Your form of grace for an 'initial' salvation, like initial salvation itself, is the OSAS kind that has nothing to do with with works, lest salvation by grace ever be tainted with works.

We agree on the secondary aspect of salvation.
Your foundation appears to be all works and there is no grace or rest ever in our faith at any point.

Are you now are saying we have no works to do, nor war to fight, nor race to run? This rest you speak of, is not resting in the Lord while doing His will in all things, but rather is some sort of retirement from doing anything at all.

For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from His.

Our rest in Christ is from our own works, and from fighting a losing battle with the flesh by our own will: I am delivered from doing it my way. And it is not 'rest' from doing the works of Christ. And those spiritual first works of faith, of course, are by grace and power to cast down every unrighteous thought and vain imagination of sinning.

We have rest in the Lord and perfect peace with our mind stayed on Him, but we still have the good fight of faith in our spiritual warfare, to resist any and every tempting thought for the world, that may appear in our renewed minds. While that warfare is not every moment of the day, it is promised to us to strengthen us in Christ, even as Jesus was made perfect by being tempted in all points without sinning.

And the physical good works of the Spirit from a pure heart of charity, is not hard but is easy and light hand in hand with Jesus. It may at times be hard on the flesh, but we endure that as good soldiers of Christ.

But if it be of works (Works Alone) it is no more grace (See: Romans 11:6).

(Works alone) of course being your input into Eph 2. (Faith with works) is mine. There is no problem to insert the truth of one Scripture into the teaching of another, so long as it is a true interpretation of the former into the latter.

However, you are now behaving in the OSAS manner of perverting works of faith, into works of our own righteousness, while ignoring the doctrine of necessary works of faith to be justified by Christ, which we can call final salvation at the end.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

Honestly, in your defense of your initial salvation doctrine, you move in such as way as to make an OSAS leader proud. And I was very surprised to see you doing it, but I know for you it is just an intellectual doctrine, that really doesn't matter when it comes to the strong meat of living righteously in all things, without continuing in works of the flesh.

 

[robert derrick]

I believe in “Temporal Belief Alone Salvationism” in that it only exists when you first accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior. After that point in time, or event, you then continue in the faith and that faith will then eventually manifest in believing certain doctrines and in doing things God commands of us (in the pages of the New Testament).

There is no faith alone that 'exists' in sight of God. Neither God, nor His word, nor His faith simply exists. God's faith is to do God's word, and without the doing, there is no believing.

And so the first works spiritually manifest themselves inwardly, when both Jesus and us see ourselves spiritually fighting the war against lusting to sin, where it begins: In the spirit of the mind.

By faith Noah was doing a lot of work in building the ark. But that's just one aspect of faith.

The examples of faith in the OT are spoken of in outward works first, because the law of the Spirit was not yet born into the hearts with Christ Himself, who first taught and showed the real fight and first works of faith are spiritually within:

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

We eat His flesh and drink His spiritual blood, which is that spiritual drink of Christ, by obeying His faith and doing His word within, with divine power to mind only the things of the Spirit, and not giving our minds over to the things of the flesh.

This is the spiritual warfare and first works we have to do by faith, in order to be loving God with all the heart and mind and soul.

Faith can also be a belief alone, as well. We see in Hebrews 11:3 about how.... “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” (Hebrews 11:3). Understanding how the worlds were framed by the Word of God (i.e. the Living Word, Jesus and or the spoken word in that God spoke and He created all things). This is by a belief alone and not by doing anything. Yet, it is through faith that we have this knowledge or understanding. Faith can be a belief alone. This is what Hebrews 11:3 is saying. To deny this is to deny the verse in what it plainly says.

Your teaching of Hebrews 11 as being knowledge only, is superficial. You bypass it's context with the fact that faith is both substance and evidence, and so faith, or knowledge alone, without the necessary evidence of works is dead. With God, faith is itself the evidence of works. The Scripture says faith is the evidence.

We are saved by grace through evident faith. Faith must be the evidence of works, else it is not faith of God we have, but our own dead faith alone.

Our spiritual works of faith within, is evidenced by ourselves and Jesus first.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Paul is showing how faith works spiritually first, before that working faith ever appears in natural life. The natural things that are seen, are not made by their own appearance, which is by a non-Creator natural selection process. But rather all things appearing outwardly are first made spiritually by Christ through faith inwardly. In creation natural works are from the spiritual working of God's word first. And so, our deeds of the body are first made by His working with us from within. The first work of creation is God speaking to do it, and so the first works of our own righteous lives is within, by our speaking against any unrighteousness of the mind.

Our righteous conversation with Christ is first unseen within, by our speaking and warring along with Jesus against all unrighteousness, before that righteousness appears on earth.

Do you not fight spiritually to work out all temptations from your mind? Or do you simply allow the tempting thoughts to become lust, but by power of will do not allow your body to do them? I used to do such righteousness outwardly, but not inwardly.

Or do you simply refuse to call that ongoing and necessary spiritual warfare works of faith?