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I’m sorry that you took my statement personally. That was NOT my intent. I hold you as my brother and love you in the Lord, and I discuss these things for your well-being, Marcus’ well-being, and for the well-being of others who might read them. However, when I hear errors that stand out to me, I call ‘em as I see ‘em. I attack the problem, not the person. I would recommend that you seriously consider the REASON for the Return of the Messiah! WHY does He return? WHY does it say over and over again that He comes back SWIFTLY?! Why did He say,keras said:Retro, your refutations are just about as unpleasant as other posters. I would expect a higher tone from you.
'Glaring error' indeed. That the Return does mention fire, in His eyes and in a lake, does not detract from the fact the armies of the Anti-Christ are destroyed by the 'sword of His Word'.
The Return is not and cannot be the 'terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath' as described in Isaiah 66:15-16 and many other vivid prophesies. The three descriptions of the Return, Rev 19:11-21, Matthew 24:30, Zechariah 14:3-2 simply do not relate to ones like Amos 5:18-20, 2 Peter 3:7
That the Great Tribulation is the seven Trumpet and seven Bowl punishments is clear from how the Sixth Bowl prepares the way for the gathering of those armies for their destruction at Armageddon. Rev. 16:12-14 The Anti-Christ will be given power to defeat God's people during those last 42 months before the Return. Rev 13:5-7, Daniel 9:27 This is a widely held belief and rightly so, because the fact that the GT does occur in the last half of Daniels 70th 'week', is Biblical truth. 2 Thess 2:1-4
Retro, your partial preterist beliefs will not help you when the real Day of the Lord comes, suddenly and unexpectedly. Haggai 2:21-22
So that’s it? You simply relegate all the work to a LABEL, “preterism," and dismiss it?! It is SO FRUSTRATING to deal with ignorance!keras said:Grand effort. Retro! But I won't thank you, for you are promoting the false theory of preterism.
Because most of the OT prophesies can be paralleled with the NT ones, esp Revelation, then they apply to our time, as well as maybe a partial fulfilment in ancient times.
According to your beliefs, what do we expect in our future? Isn't it obvious that there will be dramatic things to happen before Jesus Returns?
With Matthew 24:15, the 'Abomination of Desolation' of which Daniel spoke... was NOT fulfilled by Titus in 70 CE.
Daniel 11:31...he will abolish the regular offering and set up the AoD.... Titus never set up a image to anyone.
2 Thess 2:1-4 Do not be deceived Jesus will not Return until the Anti-Christ is revealed...he will enthrone himself in God's Temple, claiming to be God. Well, Jesus hasn't Returned as yet, we await the advent of the Anti-Christ.
Revelation 13:15...the image of the beast was made able to breath and speak, all who did not worship the image were killed. Even if you think John wrote Revelation before 70 CE, which I do not - John wrote it circa 95 CE, in no way did this happen as described.
So despite your lengthy dissertation, nothing you say proves your preterist view. Denial of what must happen, will be of no help to you and all who fail to discern the Prophetic Word.
You are delusional to come up with the unscientific rendering that a coronal mass ejection is going to reach out and sear the earth as the fulfillment of the fire verses associated with the Day of the Lord's Wrath.keras said:Retro, Isaiah 66:15-16 and the over 100 prophesies about the Lord's Day of wrath do not relate to the Return as in Rev. 19:11, Matthew 24:30 and Zech 14:3-4, because the Day of wrath is NOT he same Day as the Return. It is the next event we can expect, a sudden, shocking blast of fire from the sun.
I didn't say that - that's more of your delusional thinking.keras said:Quite happy to change the given sequence of Revelation are you? And to push all the events of the scroll into the Day of Jesus' Return? I doubt that very many here or anywhere would agree with that notion.
You are delusional. A coronal mass ejection isn't going to BURN the earth.keras said:Marcus, Please explain what is 'delusional' about a Coronal Mass Ejection affecting the Earth? Google it, check on Wikipedia, or look at spaceweather.com, for how CME's have hit earth and caused damage in the past and are expected to in the future. This is simple research, that you can't be bothered to do, you style is to 'shoot the messenger'.
In all this crazy rhetoric, please show Scriptural proof of the far-out claims you are making, like what makes you think that “the midpoint abomination” is yet in the future? What are the “two laws” of which you speak? What makes you think that the Olivet Discourse is “to the Church?” And, what gives you the idea of a “talking image of the anti-Christ?” These are FAR too specific for the Scriptures to give you proof!Marcus O'Reillius said:.
A coronal mass ejection is not likely to ever start a single, major fire (outside of melting some electrical equipment), much less burn a third of the earth as the first Trumpet will.
Not only does what you present belie scientific reality, it is not even Biblically correct. The Day of the Lord's Wrath is preceded by several events which have not yet come to pass.
On the scientific front, the Carrington event of 1859 hardly registers as a single match being lit compared to the destruction the first Trumpet will bring to the earth, although it did start some very small paper fires with overheated telegraph equipment. Bruce McKerras, you are full of it to claim CME's, which are happening all the time, will actually penetrate the earth's magnetosphere and start physical fires on the order of a third of the earth. You are off in never-never fantasy land to say so. There is no scientific basis for what you say WILL happen. Of course, God, being God, could make that happen, but it would have to be on a magnitude so much greater, and spread out over 24 hours to affect the earth as prophecy demands. That would be so large an event that scientists would call it something else because literal pieces of plasma would have to be pointedly focused towards the earth and pierce the atmosphere repeatedly over 24 hours instead of an ion storm of charged particles from a plasma cloud which is rapidly spreading outward in cube square fashion which typically lasts only a few hours. CME's pose no threat to life on earth.
On the Biblical front, in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus told us the Day of the Lord will be preceded by the midpoint abomination (which means the one 'seven' must have begun), then the Great Tribulation, which is then abruptly interrupted by the sun/moon/star event heralding the Day of the Lord, which as Jesus told us (first) sees the gathering of the elect.
This also aligns with what Jesus showed John with the sixth Seal (not the end of the one 'seven' at Armageddon presented in Rev 19:11) where the sun/moon/star event happens and afterward, the Great Multitude is safe in the "barn of Heaven" before God the Father - and that all comes before God's Wrath - which follows by at least a half an hour after - with an Angel sounding the first Trumpet - which DOES supply the fire and blood for the Day of the Lord's Wrath!
This also aligns with the parallel account of the one 'seven' with the Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ in Revelation chapters 13 through 16 whereby after the talking image of the anti-Christ occurs first and then two laws come into being (which makes the Great Tribulation so terrible for the Elect) and then Jesus harvests the earth from the clouds - and then God's Wrath follows.
So - before first Trumpet sounds comes we can expect to see the midpoint abomination, the Great Tribulation, the sun/moon/star event, and then the Rapture. We won't even be here to see the Day of the Lord's Wrath and that's why it's not even mentioned to the Church in the Olivet Discourse. Only later is it revealed.
Coming from a person who presents himself as the truth, as you represent a danger to anyone who is roped into your cajoling challenges on what to believe about end-time prophecy. You then go off the deep-end when you begin to set dates; that is strictly in kook-ville and the landscape is replete with fallen pillars of "truth" who sought to peg the Day of our Lord's Return. For those reading this tit-for-tat, I will battle your nonsense as much as you rail against "false teaching" - which in your world is anything that goes against what you say is the truth.
Oh yeah! That's right! According to you Jesus said - "when you see the abomination of desolation WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ONE 'SEVEN' SPOKEN ABOUT BY THE PROPHET DANIEL!..."Retrobyter said:In all this crazy rhetoric, please show Scriptural proof of the far-out claims you are making, like what makes you think that “the midpoint abomination” is yet in the future? What are the “two laws” of which you speak? What makes you think that the Olivet Discourse is “to the Church?” And, what gives you the idea of a “talking image of the anti-Christ?” These are FAR too specific for the Scriptures to give you proof!
Scripture, please! SCRIPTURE!Marcus O'Reillius said:.
Oh yeah! That's right! According to you Jesus said - "when you see the abomination of desolation WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ONE 'SEVEN' SPOKEN ABOUT BY THE PROPHET DANIEL!..."
Retro: what is crazy is your blue pill matrix of partial preterism which says Jesus confirms a limited time covenant for only seven years and the abomination of desolation already happened.
And the complaint for those that don't like the obvious conclusions of the keystone passage for eschatological study: saying that this fifth discourse (Matthew centers around the five major discourses of Jesus) is NOT directed at the Church because the people to whom He addressed it to are Jewish - then means we could dismiss ALL of Jesus' discourses in the Gospel because they were spoken to Jews! No, the then-Disciples are the nexus of the Church who became Apostles for Christ and gave us the Bible. The word "Elect," used by Matthew, written some 20 years later, also reflects the inclusiveness of the Church which grew from its Jewish roots to see goyim receive the Holy Spirit in Acre as per Acts.