The Day of the Lord is at hand for all the nations

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Retrobyter

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keras said:
Retro, your refutations are just about as unpleasant as other posters. I would expect a higher tone from you.
'Glaring error' indeed. That the Return does mention fire, in His eyes and in a lake, does not detract from the fact the armies of the Anti-Christ are destroyed by the 'sword of His Word'.
The Return is not and cannot be the 'terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath' as described in Isaiah 66:15-16 and many other vivid prophesies. The three descriptions of the Return, Rev 19:11-21, Matthew 24:30, Zechariah 14:3-2 simply do not relate to ones like Amos 5:18-20, 2 Peter 3:7

That the Great Tribulation is the seven Trumpet and seven Bowl punishments is clear from how the Sixth Bowl prepares the way for the gathering of those armies for their destruction at Armageddon. Rev. 16:12-14 The Anti-Christ will be given power to defeat God's people during those last 42 months before the Return. Rev 13:5-7, Daniel 9:27 This is a widely held belief and rightly so, because the fact that the GT does occur in the last half of Daniels 70th 'week', is Biblical truth. 2 Thess 2:1-4

Retro, your partial preterist beliefs will not help you when the real Day of the Lord comes, suddenly and unexpectedly. Haggai 2:21-22
Shalom, Keras.
<Sigh.> I will try to do better, but have you learned nothing in your study of the "Messiah's Return?" His Return is a two-pronged return:

(1) Not only will He benefit those who are His, but He SHAMES them for having rejected Him in the first place! That's why all the families of the Land will mourn for Him. The four names mentioned in Zechariah 14 are all in the lineage of the Messiah. That's why THEY will mourn for Him as they would for an only son (their OWN son, if they only had one son, a grandfather, however many "great's," of the Messiah) or a firstborn son (their OWN firstborn son, their heir and also a grandfather, however many "great's," of the Messiah) When they get to know Him, He will be a source of joy for all Isra'el. (BTW, the only way that all four names could mourn for Him at the same time is that this will occur AFTER the Resurrection!)

(2) He attacks those who have abused His family, especially those who come against them at that time period. And, His attack is RUTHLESS! He gives them NO space for any win in any battle of that war! First, He attacks the strongholds of Botsrah because He has "a sacrifice" to make there. He will clear the enemies out of ALL of Y'hudah first! Then, He purges Yerushalayim and drives the enemies out through the Damascus Gate and on across the mountains of Israel (INCLUDING the "West Bank")! Then, He drives them like cattle all the way to the staging area known as the Valley of Yisr`e'l (Jezreel), southeast of Haifa. There, they will turn and attempt to regroup only to meet their "Waterloo!" This battle will be under the watchtower, Har Megiddown (today, the location of a prison).

In light of this Rescue, Isra'el and Yhudah will gladly and jointly declare Him their King.

AFTER this, in His role as the King of Isra'el, He will hold a war tribunal in the Valley of Yhoshaafat outside of Yerushalayim (the judgment of the "sheep and goat NATIONS," Matthew 25). He will "plead" for His people, Israel, and they will return His people from all the countries of the world in an effort to sue for peace.

What you are forgetting is that Yeshua` IS a source of light! He GLOWS! BRIGHTLY! That's why I LOVE Isaiah 24:23 (pardon the use of the NIV for clarity)...

Isaiah 24:21-23
21 In that day the LORD will punish
the powers in the heavens above
and the kings on the earth below.
22 They will be herded together
like prisoners bound in a dungeon;
they will be shut up in prison
and be punished after many days.
23 The moon will be abashed, the sun ashamed;
for the Lord Almighty will reign
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,
and before its elders, gloriously.

NIV


Verse 23 is a use of personification for both the moon and the sun. Literally, however, the words mean that the moon will be "mixed up," and the sun will be "outdone!" He will outshine the sun in its noonday strength! He will shine so brightly (gloriously) that He will literally mix up the phases of the moon as the light of the sun and the light of the Son compete upon the moon's surface!

The 1000 years of the Millennium, characterized by the reign of the Messiah in His brightness, will literally be one Day! Thus, the Return in the beginning of the "Day" and the GWTJ at the end of the "Day" will still be considered to be on the ONE Day of the LORD!

Thus, Peter's words in 2 Peter 3:3-13 and John's words in Revelation 20:1-21:28 can be harmonized:

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (GWTJ).
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV


Revelation 20:1-21:8
20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne (GWTJ), and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
KJV


And, when you couple their harmony with the passage in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, you have an even clearer picture:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (First Resurrection.)
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (Second Resurrection.)
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (The Millennium.)
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (In the New Earth and the New Sky.)
KJV


And, just to set the record straight and complete, remember the prophecy of Gavri'el (Gabriel) in Luke 1:30-33:

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV


So, although the Messiah's Kingdom over the house of Ya`aqov (Jacob) will never end, He relinquishes the world empire to His Father at the end of the Millennium.

It's into THIS general view that all the lesser, particular views about the "Great Tribulation" and the "Rapture" and even the "antichrist" must fit.

---

Now, let's analyze Matthew 24:1-35, Mark 13:1-31, and Luke 21:5-33 carefully: It's really very simple if one just remembers that the Greek words "humeis," "humoon," "humin" (all plural meaning "ye" or "you"), "se" and its forms (all singular meaning "thee" or "thou"), and the verb forms ending in "-eis," (epsilon iota sigma), "-the" (theta epsilon) or "-te" (tau epsilon) relate DIRECTLY to His disciples to whom He was speaking that day on the Mount of Olives. When His vision looks beyond His present and into the future, the pronouns change.

Thus, verses 2, 4, 6, 9, 15, 20, 23, 25, 26, 32, 33, and 34 in Matthew 24 were all spoken directly to the disciples. Verses 2, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 14, 18, 21, 23, 28, 29, and 30 in Mark 13 were all spoken directly to the disciples, and verses 8, 9, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 28, 29, 30, 31, and 32 in Luke 21 were all spoken directly to the disciples.

Matthew 24:1-35
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them,
See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them,
(You) Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; (you) believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; (you) go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; (you) believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now (you) learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, (you) know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

KJV

Mark 13:1-31
1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2 And Jesus answering said unto him,
Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
5 And Jesus answering them began to say,
(You) Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
9 But (you) take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, (you) take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; (you) believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
28 Now (you) learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, (you) know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

KJV

Luke 21:5-33
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
8 And he said,
(You) Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, (you) be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then (you) know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then (you) look up, and (you) lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29 And he spake to them a parable; (You) Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and (ye) know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

KJV

Now, granted. The things that He talks about in between can be and ARE about the distant future (that is, "distant" to Him and His disciples at that time). But the PORTIONS that are directly addressed to them are already finished, and that includes the "abomination of desolation," or the "terrible deed that causes their nation to become desolate!" They were fulfilled in the first century A.D. because His students LIVED in the first century A.D!

Now, let's zero in on the actual coming of the Messiah: OF COURSE, His coming is yet to come. Thus, we sit between the first century and His Second Coming. Therefore, the portions that were NOT directly addressed to them in the first century, apply to us. Some of them have already started, and others have not. Some of them describe an on-going escalation in which we're in the middle. I conclude, therefore, that we are ALREADY IN the "Great Tribulation" or the "terrible pressure or distress" because it started with His disciples in the first century! And, His Second Coming described in verses 29-31 suggest that the "Great Tribulation" shall continue until just before the descriptions of the sun/moon/stars/powers events in verse 29.

When He said that the days would be shortened, He was NOT saying that the entire "period" (chronos) would be shortened, just the "days" (heemeras) of persecution! Thus, Yeshua` was putting a limit on how often those days of persecution would occur throughout the period. That's why we can point to a particular "pogrom" or a particular "inquisition" or even the "Holocaust." It would not be a constant, consistent persecution, which indeed would have ended the children of Isra'el.

Hope this helps.
 

keras

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Retro said: hope his lengthy post helps my understanding of the end times.

No, it doesn't make me change my beliefs at all.
Are we in the GT? Not likely, even if you allegorize the prophesies, which I don't: they simply have not happened yet.
You have a unique belief about the Return, one that I cannot fit anywhere in scripture.

Your reliance on the KJV is also makes me suspicious of your thinking. Modern scholarship sees errors in practically every verse.
Belief that the Jewish people are all the children of Israel, conflicts with all the prophets, who consistently maintain the separation between Israel and Judah.

However, I do appreciate your effort and soon we will see the end time events unfolding. Then understanding will come to everyone. Isaiah 32:3-4