The decline of Christianity in the West

[DogLady19]

39% of Americans answered "true" to the question, "God created the universe, the earth, the sun, moon, stars, plants, animals, and the first two people within the past 10 000 years." So based on that, you'd conclude that almost 40% of Americans are young-earthers, right? But in the same survey, only 18% of Americans answered "true" to the question, "The earth is less than 10 000 years old." Huh? How do 20% of people agree that God created the earth within the last 10,000 years, but disagree that the earth is less than 10,000 years old?

We've observed the evolution of new species both in the lab and in the wild. I posted some of the examples a while ago: CLICK HERE.

If I sent you a survey that you could only answer TRUE or FALSE to, and the question is "Do you think your family is criminal, loving, honest and close?" How would you answer? People might have been ambivalent about how to answer this poorly constructed question on the survey, but when each item was separated, they answered TRUE on age of humans and FALSE on age of earth (and FALSE on the age of the universe).

We must also consider the sample used in the survey: Americans who knew the survey existed. We cannot generalize these stats to represent ALL Christians everywhere in the world including those who do not have access to surveys. IE. one must look at the methodology before making conclusions based on a survey. (I might add that the NCSE used data from popular polls, not scientific ones... another reason I question the methodology)

Thanks for clearing up the definition of "species" and "speciation"... I thought I might have had the terminology wrong, that's why I explained what I meant when I used the term. There is no scientific laboratory observations of a tree turning into a lizard or that an inanimate object became a living organism.

I am one of those that believe in YEC, and the reason I am is because God made everything FULLY mature in Gen 1. Now I'm not God, but for sure the egg came second in this regard, so how old was Adam when God made him? Obviously one day old, BUT, how old did he look or how old would observable science have put him at? The same goes with the geological facets of creation? Who knows what it would take to understand that a universe God made on day one, appeared to be much older than one day? Does the creation have to be as God designed it? Of course, so does that mean it could be viewed by any science as one day old, or did God build in age when He created?
IMO, He obviously did, and man just hasn't been able to tell the difference. How sad that some should expect that man and his science would have been able to catch up to our God that is unfathomable, in a mere 10,000 years. Especially by men who don't have a real faith in Him. Do we start with a faith in God or a faith in man's science and understanding? To me, the answer is equally obvious and part of our life of faith.

Wow! Really?

I think too many Christians make the same mistake as atheists who think the book of Genesis is a scientific story of creation. It isn't. It is the story of the beginning of God's relationship with man.

The word "create" and "made" in Genesis 1 means to "fashion" or "arrange"... We use the same word when we say, "I made my bed this morning." The bed already existed, but you simply fashioned and arranged it to suit your needs.

Surely you know that word "day" used in Genesis cannot be a 24-hour sun-down to sun-up period, right? (Otherwise people living near the Arctic Circle are really confused since they have "days" that are several months long!

The same word is used to mean an "era" or "period of time" that does not necessarily have a determined number of hours.

In Joshua 24:7, God said that he kept Moses and His people in the wilderness for a long "day" (which we know was 40 years long)

In Genesis 4:3, Cain harvested his crops after a "one day" process of planting and tending (which we know was an entire growing season)

And more importantly, Psalm 23:6 says that we will dwell in the House of the Lord for a "day" (which we know is forever)

Really? Really.

Ok then my question to you is does God have rules he himself must follow?

The simple answer is YES. He is perfect which means He follows the laws that He made. He is sinless, which means He doesn't break laws. But we must keep in mind His ways are higher than our ways.

But there are plenty of instances where God defied physical laws.

 

[winc]

If I sent you a survey that you could only answer TRUE or FALSE to, and the question is "Do you think your family is criminal, loving, honest and close?" How would you answer? People might have been ambivalent about how to answer this poorly constructed question on the survey, but when each item was separated, they answered TRUE on age of humans and FALSE on age of earth (and FALSE on the age of the universe).

We must also consider the sample used in the survey: Americans who knew the survey existed. We cannot generalize these stats to represent ALL Christians everywhere in the world including those who do not have access to surveys. IE. one must look at the methodology before making conclusions based on a survey. (I might add that the NCSE used data from popular polls, not scientific ones... another reason I question the methodology)

Thanks for clearing up the definition of "species" and "speciation"... I thought I might have had the terminology wrong, that's why I explained what I meant when I used the term. There is no scientific laboratory observations of a tree turning into a lizard or that an inanimate object became a living organism.

Wow! Really?

I think too many Christians make the same mistake as atheists who think the book of Genesis is a scientific story of creation. It isn't. It is the story of the beginning of God's relationship with man.

The word "create" and "made" in Genesis 1 means to "fashion" or "arrange"... We use the same word when we say, "I made my bed this morning." The bed already existed, but you simply fashioned and arranged it to suit your needs.

Surely you know that word "day" used in Genesis cannot be a 24-hour sun-down to sun-up period, right? (Otherwise people living near the Arctic Circle are really confused since they have "days" that are several months long!

The same word is used to mean an "era" or "period of time" that does not necessarily have a determined number of hours.

In Joshua 24:7, God said that he kept Moses and His people in the wilderness for a long "day" (which we know was 40 years long)

In Genesis 4:3, Cain harvested his crops after a "one day" process of planting and tending (which we know was an entire growing season)

And more importantly, Psalm 23:6 says that we will dwell in the House of the Lord for a "day" (which we know is forever)

The simple answer is YES. He is perfect which means He follows the laws that He made. He is sinless, which means He doesn't break laws. But we must keep in mind His ways are higher than our ways.

But there are plenty of instances where God defied physical laws.



mind you lets get it straight at the start we are discussing and hotly debating pseudo/phony science in the guise of genuine science and itself giving science a bad sad unreliable reputation - imho to even ask anyone especially the young to even just accept that everything came from nothing millions of years ago is way out, weird and wacky to say the least and this is just one of the way out weird and wacky beliefs some grown ups have accepted and teach like swallowing a camel and choking on a gnat of simple truth - pseudo/phony non science and nonsense is replete with fakes, frauds , cons and cover ups being forced on the majority by a few - btw just watch my post re dishonesty and conspiracy in education - winc

 

[River Jordan]

If I sent you a survey that you could only answer TRUE or FALSE to, and the question is "Do you think your family is criminal, loving, honest and close?" How would you answer? People might have been ambivalent about how to answer this poorly constructed question on the survey, but when each item was separated, they answered TRUE on age of humans and FALSE on age of earth (and FALSE on the age of the universe).

Right, that's why I picked the lowest number to estimate how many US Christians are young-earthers.

We must also consider the sample used in the survey: Americans who knew the survey existed. We cannot generalize these stats to represent ALL Christians everywhere in the world including those who do not have access to surveys. IE. one must look at the methodology before making conclusions based on a survey. (I might add that the NCSE used data from popular polls, not scientific ones... another reason I question the methodology)

No, the data came from a Harris poll, which as the NCSE site describes, "The data were originally collected by Harris Interactive with 4626 respondents in two waves of data collection from July to October, 2009. Respondents were drawn from Harris Interactive’s on-line panel and weighted based on age, sex, region of country, income, education, and ethnicity to resemble the overall US based on US Census proportions."

IOW, they followed standard statistical sampling methods.

There is no scientific laboratory observations of a tree turning into a lizard or that an inanimate object became a living organism.

Right, because neither of those would be evolution or speciation. "A tree turning into a lizard" would actually disprove evolution.

 

[StanJ]

Wow! Really?

I think too many Christians make the same mistake as atheists who think the book of Genesis is a scientific story of creation. It isn't. It is the story of the beginning of God's relationship with man.

The word "create" and "made" in Genesis 1 means to "fashion" or "arrange"... We use the same word when we say, "I made my bed this morning." The bed already existed, but you simply fashioned and arranged it to suit your needs.

Surely you know that word "day" used in Genesis cannot be a 24-hour sun-down to sun-up period, right? (Otherwise people living near the Arctic Circle are really confused since they have "days" that are several months long!

The same word is used to mean an "era" or "period of time" that does not necessarily have a determined number of hours.

In Joshua 24:7, God said that he kept Moses and His people in the wilderness for a long "day" (which we know was 40 years long)

In Genesis 4:3, Cain harvested his crops after a "one day" process of planting and tending (which we know was an entire growing season)

And more importantly, Psalm 23:6 says that we will dwell in the House of the Lord for a "day" (which we know is forever)

Of course really. I have no delusions that Genesis is a scientific book, I KNOW it is the Word of God for His creation and as such is limited in what it conveys and how it could convey based on the language and understanding of the day. Thousands of years later we probably understand it much more than those that first read it after Moses wrote it.
Having said that, it does not mean it is not accurate in what it conveys. As a matter of fact, it is absolute in what it does say as in Gen 1:1, which is the over arching theme of Gen 1-2. The words 'create' and 'made' have many connotations in English from Hebrew and Greek, so only stating two that fit your premise. is a tad disingenuous.

Bottom line is, DAY ONE is represented by verses 1-3 in context. The Hebrew connotes a finished work, not an ongoing one.
Days are actual lunar days in Genesis and are based on the 24 knuckles of your hands (not including your thumbs). Thus the 3 hour sections shown throughout scripture, such as the third hour, the sixth hour, the ninth hour, the twelfth hour and then day and evening. Whenever the two are used together, they connote one actual day as we know it. Maybe not 24 hours but definitely 8 x 3 hour sections, 4 for day and 4 for evening. The Hebrew word Yom in the Bible, mostly refers to an actual lunar day as they understood it then. The Arctic circle is a strawman.

You'll have to provide the translation you use, so I can verify how it relates to the Hebrew/Greek, but the Greek and Hebrew in the versions I use, do NOT use day.

The Hebrew word in Psalm 23:6 is 'ôrek and connotes a length of time, or patience. Not the same as day/yom in Gen 1.

 

[Born_Again]

Doglady, I see now where you made the point I made on the other thread. This is where my confusion of day and night being referred to as a 24 hour period as some places on earth do not have the same "days" because of the going "days" with out sunlight or going days without having night. This leads me to believe we truly have this wrong. Pick a book from the library, (for those of us who remember getting books from a library) and see how many times you have to read it before you completely grasp what the author was conveying.

Though the story is true, Moses is telling just that, a story. I being a writer try my best to convey the message in the most understandable way possible so as to leave the fewest questions and misunderstandings. How many times do we misunderstand each other on here?

Could this be an instant where scripture was taken at face value and not studied as much as it should have been? I do feel it is possible we could be wrong as we are human and make mistakes. Moses was human too........

BA

 

[winc]

Doglady, I see now where you made the point I made on the other thread. This is where my confusion of day and night being referred to as a 24 hour period as some places on earth do not have the same "days" because of the going "days" with out sunlight or going days without having night. This leads me to believe we truly have this wrong. Pick a book from the library, (for those of us who remember getting books from a library) and see how many times you have to read it before you completely grasp what the author was conveying.

Though the story is true, Moses is telling just that, a story. I being a writer try my best to convey the message in the most understandable way possible so as to leave the fewest questions and misunderstandings. How many times do we misunderstand each other on here?

Could this be an instant where scripture was taken at face value and not studied as much as it should have been? I do feel it is possible we could be wrong as we are human and make mistakes. Moses was human too........

BA

intelligent design ensured that we sleep at night and rest one day in seven and btw Moses was human but the author of the Bible is divine - winc

 

[StanJ]

Doglady, I see now where you made the point I made on the other thread. This is where my confusion of day and night being referred to as a 24 hour period as some places on earth do not have the same "days" because of the going "days" with out sunlight or going days without having night. This leads me to believe we truly have this wrong. Pick a book from the library, (for those of us who remember getting books from a library) and see how many times you have to read it before you completely grasp what the author was conveying.

Though the story is true, Moses is telling just that, a story. I being a writer try my best to convey the message in the most understandable way possible so as to leave the fewest questions and misunderstandings. How many times do we misunderstand each other on here?

Could this be an instant where scripture was taken at face value and not studied as much as it should have been? I do feel it is possible we could be wrong as we are human and make mistakes. Moses was human too........

BA

Exceptions are never used to refute a rule BA. As I explained above, the day was not much different than we look at them today, regardless of what some may say as a day in the north, they still use the 24 hour day as a regular reference, and they know it is an exception and not a rule.

Moses wrote what God inspired him to write, and lessening it's importance by calling it a story is also disingenuous considering most Christians don't believe that. Is God's word inspired and factual or not? Paul says it is, in 2 Tim 3:16

I do agree with you that reading it many times has brought me to my current POV. Many times I read it as accepted it but didn't really THINK about it. Having actually now studied it many times, and of course by the help of the Holy Spirit, I've come to see that it IS as simple as it is written but that it can also stand the scrutiny of modern day science because science has NOT proven it is wrong. They only theorize what they think they know.

 

[Born_Again]

But there is room for error, yes?

 

[StanJ]

But there is room for error, yes?

What error are you referring to? There is NO error in God's word, so do you mean man's view called science?

 

[Born_Again]

Yes, I mean in mans view, Stan. You know me better than that

 

[StanJ]

Yes, I mean in mans view, Stan. You know me better than that

Sorry I just don't like to assume, but yes much room for error in man's POV.

 

[DogLady19]

mind you lets get it straight at the start we are discussing and hotly debating pseudo/phony science in the guise of genuine science and itself giving science a bad sad unreliable reputation - imho to even ask anyone especially the young to even just accept that everything came from nothing millions of years ago is way out, weird and wacky to say the least and this is just one of the way out weird and wacky beliefs some grown ups have accepted and teach like swallowing a camel and choking on a gnat of simple truth - pseudo/phony non science and nonsense is replete with fakes, frauds , cons and cover ups being forced on the majority by a few - btw just watch my post re dishonesty and conspiracy in education - winc

There will always be false doctrines, false prophets, and philosophies that take attention away from Jesus. Pseudo science is nothing new. That's why we warned about them in several books of the Bible.

We have to pray for those people. They are gullible and vulnerable to predation. And we have to keep speaking the truth in love. They can't be set free any other way.

intelligent design ensured that we sleep at night and rest one day in seven and btw Moses was human but the author of the Bible is divine - winc

I think you forgot to finish your sentence...

the authorS of the Bible ARE divineLY INSPIRED...

Only God is "divine"...

so only stating two that fit your premise. is a tad disingenuous.

Disingenuous? Do you think I'm here to deceive you???

I have already said that I enjoy discussions as a way to learn and share. You obviously question my motives for being here, so perhaps I should just refrain from engaging you in discussion and you should stay away from people you think are trying to trick you into something.

While you're busy pointing out the fallacies of logic in other people's posts, why don't you look into ad hominems. You have use them several times in the short time I've been on this forum.

 

[StanJ]

Disingenuous? Do you think I'm here to deceive you???

I have already said that I enjoy discussions as a way to learn and share. You obviously question my motives for being here, so perhaps I should just refrain from engaging you in discussion and you should stay away from people you think are trying to trick you into something.

While you're busy pointing out the fallacies of logic in other people's posts, why don't you look into ad hominems. You have use them several times in the short time I've been on this forum.

Come on DL19...I would have thought you had a better grasp of the English language? Please acquaint yourself with the FULL meaning of "disingenuous" and how I used it by qualifying 'a tad'.

I know exactly what an ad hominem is and I am not innocent of using them but have NOT used them towards you have I? So why cast that dispersion?

Now please, address my post.

 

[DogLady19]

Come on DL19...I would have thought you had a better grasp of the English language? Please acquaint yourself with the FULL meaning of "disingenuous" and how I used it by qualifying 'a tad'.

I know exactly what an ad hominem is and I am not innocent of using them but have NOT used them towards you have I? So why cast that dispersion?

Now please, address my post.

DISINGENUOUS: not truly honest or sincere : giving the false appearance of being honest or sincere

So I am a tad fake in my sincerity and now lack a grasp of the English language. Anything else you want to tell me about me?

I think this is the first time you used ad hominems against me, but you use them against others on this forum frequently. What difference does it make that you use them against me or other people? I think it's a fallacy of logic when you use them toward ANYONE.

 

[aspen]

Seriously? We have reach the point of quibbling over the words "tad" and "disingenuous"....

 

[StanJ]

DISINGENUOUS: not truly honest or sincere : giving the false appearance of being honest or sincere

So I am a tad fake in my sincerity and now lack a grasp of the English language. Anything else you want to tell me about me?

I think this is the first time you used ad hominems against me, but you use them against others on this forum frequently. What difference does it make that you use them against me or other people? I think it's a fallacy of logic when you use them toward ANYONE.

Again, NOT the full meaning. It also connotes not being candid. I also made a few other points that you seem to have avoided and chosen to take me to task for a PERCEIVED ad hominem.

I leave the job of enforcing the rules to the moderators, who know me a lot more about me and my style after 1280+ posts than you do after only 68. I do have a few pet peeves and you did hit on one of them. I greatly appreciate real candor and truth much more than anything else. Guess I got you wrong.

Seriously? We have reach the point of quibbling over the words "tad" and "disingenuous"....

Not quibbling, just trying to make my approach clear. Some people are very sensitive.

 

[DogLady19]

Again, NOT the full meaning. It also connotes not being candid. I also made a few other points that you seem to have avoided and chosen to take me to task for a PERCEIVED ad hominem.

I leave the job of enforcing the rules to the moderators, who know me a lot more about me and my style after 1280+ posts than you do after only 68. I do have a few pet peeves and you did hit on one of them. I greatly appreciate real candor and truth much more than anything else. Guess I got you wrong.

Not quibbling, just trying to make my approach clear. Some people are very sensitive.

Yes, you got me wrong. How about you try not to analyze me and stay on topic. It doesn't matter what you meant by calling me disingenuous or candid... I am not the topic...

I would love to discuss this topic with you and others, but this had to be addressed... otherwise, I won't feel comfortable discussing anything with you because I'll just be expecting more of your personal analysis (which is an ad hominem). (and I am a VERY candid and sincere person!)

AD HOMINEM: Overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument.

So, with that said...

1) Let me know if you think Yom refers to a 24-hour period of time in:
Joshua 24:7
Malachi 4:5
Amos 5:18
2 Chronicles 15:3
Genesis 39:11
Exodus 2:23

2) What did the writer of Genesis mean in Psalm 90 that for God, a thousands years is a day?

 

[StanJ]

Yes, you got me wrong. How about you try not to analyze me and stay on topic. It doesn't matter what you meant by calling me disingenuous or candid... I am not the topic...

So, with that said...

1) Let me know if you think Yom refers to a 24-hour period of time in:
Joshua 24:7
Malachi 4:5
Amos 5:18
2 Chronicles 15:3
Genesis 39:11
Exodus 2:23

2) What did the writer of Genesis mean in Psalm 90 that for God, a thousands years is a day?

Sorry DL19, but you have already made it about yourself.

1. They refer to what they refer to. As I've shown, yom has several connotations based on the context of where it is used.

2. The writer of Genesis did not write Psalms, but Peter did quote Psalm 90:4 in 2 Peter 3:8, and it basically shows God is not bound by time and does not exist in time.

 

[DogLady19]

Sorry DL19, but you have already made it about yourself.

1. They refer to what they refer to. As I've shown, yom has several connotations based on the context of where it is used.

2. The writer of Genesis did not write Psalms, but Peter did quote Psalm 90:4 in 2 Peter 3:8, and it basically shows God is not bound by time and does not exist in time.

1) Every single scripture I listed uses the word Yom (Strong's 3117) as something besides a 24-hour period of time. As such, it is presumptuous for anyone to declare empathically that the days of creation were 24-hour periods of time. I'm not saying they aren't, but I see no definitive proof that they are.

2) Psalm 90 was written by Moses. Moses was the writer of Genesis.

 

[StanJ]

1) Every single scripture I listed uses the word Yom (Strong's 3117) as something besides a 24-hour period of time. As such, it is presumptuous for anyone to declare empathically that the days of creation were 24-hour periods of time. I'm not saying they aren't, but I see no definitive proof that they are.

2) Psalm 90 was written by Moses. Moses was the writer of Genesis.

1. Yom has several connotations and the context of any scripture decides what the proper connotation is. You quote Strong's 3117 but apparently don't read it?
2. Psalm 90 was written by a psalmist not identified, it was NOT written BY Moses. It alludes to some of Moses prayers that can be found in Exodus. i.e.; v13 is from Ex 32:12. It's like saying Rev 13 was written by Moses because it uses words from Ex 15.